In this episode, we sit down with Jonathan Schooler—top 100 cognitive scientist, consciousness researcher, and OG mind explorer—to unpack one of the most provocative theories of self-awareness: Nested Observer Windows.
What if your mind isn’t a single stream of thought… but a mosaic of smaller minds, each with its own experience?
We go deep on why you forget what you read, how verbalizing a memory can destroy it, and whether your tongue might have a consciousness of its own. Plus: psychedelics, mind wandering, AI, and what happens when the tulpa inside your head wakes up.
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Learn more about Jonathan: https://www.psych.ucsb.edu/people/jonathan-schooler
Timestamps:
00:00 – Intro & Who is Jonathan Schooler
01:30 – Google's New AI Made Ben Dizzy
03:20 – Childhood, Alan Watts & the Roots of Consciousness 06:00 – What Is Consciousness? The Bat Test
09:05 – Verbal Overshadowing: How Words Can Ruin Memory
12:40 – When Your Memory Lies in Court
15:40 – Meta-Awareness vs. Just Living
19:00 – Buddhism’s 3 Types of Enlightened Beings
21:30 – The Mindful Mirror: What Is Meta Consciousness? 26:15 – Does Alcohol Erase Self-Awareness?
28:50 – The Cost of Too Much Meta-Awareness
32:05 – Meditation, Flow, and Creativity
36:20 – Are Mindfulness & Creativity in Conflict?
40:00 – Open Monitoring vs. Breath Focused States
42:00 – Nested Observer Windows: The Theory Explained 46:30 – Tongue Consciousness, Gut Brains, and Internal Networks
50:20 – Split-Brain Patients: Two Minds, One Head
54:10 – Tulpa: When Imaginary Friends Wake Up
58:20 – Ethical Dangers of Creating Minds Inside Your Mind
1:01:00 – Can You Train a Tulpa to Have Meta Awareness?
1:03:00 – Psychedelics That Shatter Your Mind Into Voices
1:05:30 – Is AI Just a Russian Doll Without a Soul?
1:09:30 – Are We Reborn Every Morning?
1:12:30 – Star Trek Teleportation & the Self
1:14:00 – Strassen’s Algorithm & AI Discoveries
1:17:30 – Co-Creating Art With AI for State Openness
1:20:00 – Can Art Make You More Curious?
1:22:30 – When AI Becomes Part of Your Brain
1:25:00 – The Curiosity Gap Between Users
1:28:00 – Lazy Brains vs. Active Minds
1:31:00 – The Risk of Cognitive Decline with AI
1:34:00 – Schools That Use AI Better Than Adults
1:36:00 – Philosophical Zombies & Conscious Uploads 1:38:00 – Is There a “Right” Way to Use AI?
1:41:00 – Mind Wandering, AI, and the Learning Process 1:44:30 – Creating Art With AI to Unlock Flow
1:46:00 – Alan Watts, God, and the Simulation Game
1:49:00 – Final Reflections: Hide-and-Seek With the Divine
