Jennifer [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.
Ashlee [00:00:18]:
I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.
Jennifer [00:00:23]:
Hi, and welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:00:27]:
And I'm Ashlee. And before we get started today, I have to call this out. I may sound a little different. I know I put it on our socials, but I did get Invisalign. So I'm working on these teeth, and sometimes my speech is a little a little off, but we're gonna give it a go today. And, hopefully, it's not too bad because
Jennifer [00:00:47]:
I can't get it. Bad at all, but everybody, she really wanted to get it out there that she thinks she sounds funny. I think she sounds wonderful as well.
Ashlee [00:00:56]:
Had a firefighter call me Daffy Duck. So so I feel as though I have to call myself out before
Jennifer [00:01:04]:
Right. Before they call you out?
Ashlee [00:01:07]:
Yeah. What what is that with these firemen? They think they can just
Jennifer [00:01:11]:
Oh, the first responders, they won't let you get by with anything, will they?
Ashlee [00:01:14]:
No. We're well, I just said this. Dedicating our lives to this, and here we are.
Jennifer [00:01:20]:
And then they're calling you Daffy Duck. Yeah.
Ashlee [00:01:22]:
And I love it because if they weren't picking on me, you might be in a little bit more trouble.
Jennifer [00:01:28]:
Exactly. It's definitely a a sign of love in the first responder world if you're getting teased.
Ashlee [00:01:34]:
Oh, I just wanted this leads perfectly into what we wanted to discuss today because we were making some videos, doing our little marketing stuff together, and we realized that while, yes, we are very heavy on what it's like to be a child of first responder, we don't want that to go anywhere. That's still our main
Jennifer [00:01:50]:
thing here. We'll be here forever
Ashlee [00:01:52]:
with that.
Jennifer [00:01:53]:
Yes. Right?
Ashlee [00:01:54]:
We also recognize that we haven't really tapped into much, I guess, on the clinical side. And I was venting, I'm gonna put that out there, venting respectfully about other kind of clinicians and how they've approached maybe this first responder world because there's not there's not much of us. I wouldn't say No.
Jennifer [00:02:16]:
There's not. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very small group. I'm I'm trying to think, like, back home in here. Yeah. I mean, it's just not a big, huge group.
Ashlee [00:02:28]:
I think that you and I are blessed because we back where we work together, right, like, of course, our group is specific for first responders.
Jennifer [00:02:38]:
Right.
Ashlee [00:02:38]:
So we're kinda lucky that we're surrounded by but even then, what is that? Like, 10 clinicians altogether? 10 to 12?
Jennifer [00:02:45]:
Yeah. I mean, it's not a big group, and that's pulling from an entire state. And, you know, I'm out of state, and you're out of state with that too. So that's not even, I guess, in the state. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, that's a good point as well. And I just think it's important, you know, when talking about this, there's just a lot that goes into having a therapist.
Jennifer [00:03:09]:
I think I'll start with a little bit of it's like dating and who wants to do that. But, you know, finding a good therapist, like, it's not just the first therapist you walk in an office with that may be not be a fit. And then, I guess, talk a little bit about the the qualification and competency of a first responder therapist? Like, what's a little bit from the clinical side is important with that?
Ashlee [00:03:36]:
Yeah. Do you want me to answer that right now? Look at you throwing it. You're like, let's go.
Jennifer [00:03:40]:
You said we're doing questions.
Ashlee [00:03:41]:
I know we are. Sorry. Yeah. Well, the first thing that I do kinda wanna say just because we have listeners on here is that we can't obviously, we're not your therapist. So, like, while we're giving you this education and we want you guys to take it, please don't come back to us in a little bit here. Like, we would love to take on everybody, though. That's for sure. I'm just saying, obviously, it's a little caveat.
Ashlee [00:04:02]:
We have to put that out there that in this role, we can't be everything for everybody, and so we just hope you take this as education. But I think that there is I think there's a lot of barriers, and I think there's a lot of things that in order for a therapist to be competent is that rude? Was that
Jennifer [00:04:21]:
I don't think that's rude.
Ashlee [00:04:22]:
In first responders, there are, like, vast differences. And I know in one of the little videos we just posted, we kinda gave a hint to what we're talking about today. Right? Is that culturally aware of what it is like to be a first responder, I think, is so important. So let's take what I just started with. Right? It's such a little example, but the humor Mhmm. The dark humor, the pick on you behaviors that we get from our first responders, is there is there love language almost. Right?
Jennifer [00:04:53]:
Mhmm.
Ashlee [00:04:54]:
And while you and I like, to me, that's second nature. Like, my dad my dad Right. You know what I mean? Makes fun of me all day every day. So I definitely think that, like, it to me, I'm so used to it, and I I do love it. I love to also give it back to them. I think what's fair. But I can recognize how quickly, like, a different therapist may not understand that.
Jennifer [00:05:18]:
And some not understand it
Ashlee [00:05:19]:
at all. With are really bad. Right? Like, really dark stuff.
Jennifer [00:05:23]:
Mhmm. A gallows humor is what I've been told by first responders. And I think that it's interesting because from my perspective hearing that and how I feel with clients, it's like rapport building. Right? Like, it's, you know, this putting people at ease. Like, I need to know that you're safe, so I gotta make fun of you a little bit and see if I can rib you and if that's okay. And I think for some clinicians, you know, they just don't have that ability to kinda be in a little bit of that gray spot. Yeah. And so I think that that's a good example of the difference of that for sure.
Jennifer [00:05:59]:
Do you I mean, I have some horror stories that I've heard of first responders going to therapist. One in particular I can think of is, you know, a first responder going to a therapist sharing their experience, and the therapist, you know, become physically like, have an emotional response, and the first responder seeing that. And the session ended up with the first responder making the therapist feel at ease about the situation. And that, sadly, I don't think that's that's just one of many of those kind of stories.
Ashlee [00:06:38]:
Yes. I have heard a lot of that before too. And I think what's what's important if you're a therapist wanting to work with first responders, right, is recognizing one, and we can kinda go back to this if you would like to, but, like, their trauma is vastly not that all trauma is very important. Right? Like, traumatic situations and things like that, and it's bad per person. I'm not trying to say anything like that. But for some therapists, the amount of trauma and the type of trauma is incredibly hard for them to digest.
Jennifer [00:07:09]:
Mhmm.
Ashlee [00:07:09]:
Right? And if you are not prepared to take on that, it really can leave a therapist probably, just like you're saying in that example Right. Overwhelmed, having an emotional response. I think we also tend to forget that our first responders, this is what they work for
Jennifer [00:07:24]:
is to protect them. Exactly.
Ashlee [00:07:27]:
And the minute as a therapist you show them, like, that you can't handle it, they do go into work mode. How do I fix this? Sorry. I have to stop there because I hear that from every first responder. How do I fix it? Right? But how do I fix this? And I wanna fix it with you. I don't want I don't want you to be exposed to the things that I'm exposed to. I've heard that a million times before too.
Jennifer [00:07:54]:
I have heard that as well. That's a good reminder. I haven't heard that one in a while, but I definitely have heard this idea of why would I want to traumatize somebody else with the trauma, which is, you know, what I love about our first responders. They wanna protect people in so many ways and even to this to, you know, this act of I would be a burden to kinda unload on a therapist, all that I've seen. And recognizing that there are, you know, competent therapists that have their skills and their ability to hear that and not take it on, which is, I think, what you're looking for in a therapist that can respond to first responders.
Ashlee [00:08:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I it's one of those things too. Right? Like, how do you how do we get actually, I'll throw this question to you, if you don't mind. Okay. Right? Because my brain's going with it. And while we were just talking there, I pulled up. So everybody knows that I try to take on the world.
Ashlee [00:08:50]:
I don't hide that. So I'll queue you in on this little course that I've been trying to create for therapists. So I pulled that up because I was like, you know what? Let me make sure I'm hitting on some of these things that I have already put down on a paper and think are incredibly important. But, like, when you look at a first responder and we're talking about trauma, we're talking about all these different things, like, how do you, as a therapist, Jennifer, make them feel comfortable in your office then?
Jennifer [00:09:18]:
That's a good question. I think what I start with is just being really open and honest. It's interesting with first responders. I think they need a lot of background about who I am, where I come from. I can't just be a complete stranger, though I am. So I think that that's a piece of letting them know a little bit about who I am, I think, is a start. But I also, you know, go back to it's such a exercise in trust. Yep.
Jennifer [00:09:53]:
You know, I I give a background in in things like that. I think that's a way in which I offer that. I acknowledge you know, the first time I'm gonna meet somebody, I'm gonna ask you a thousand questions, and that's just, you know, just trying to see how I can best serve you and, you know, also give the option of, like, if there's a question you don't wanna answer. I think sometimes it's nice to create a space of, like, you get to drive the ship a little bit here. And I think for first responders, especially with maybe having a little bit of control, this is something outside of our comfort zone so much, just giving them a little piece of that. You know, nowadays, I get to say that I've worked with first responders for a long time, and so that I think buys me a little bit of credit. But previously to that, you know, it I didn't have that initially. And so it is something that you're just trying to offer control.
Jennifer [00:10:48]:
And I also think I've been doing it long enough, and I've been interrogated by enough I was just about to say. Yeah. I have been interrogated by enough first responders, and I think that they can say that, like, that doesn't scare me or bother me. Like, I I recognize, like, they need that, and I respect that. And whatever questions you have, and if you wanna see every single note I write, whatever that is to make you feel safe and comfortable, I'm willing to accommodate that. Because this is, again, like I said in our little video, like, therapy is a hard thing. It's not an easy thing. And so whatever I can do to offer some levels of comfort with that, I would.
Ashlee [00:11:30]:
Yeah. No. I love that so much, and it is true. I've had that happen to me too. I do think there's some testing that some of our first responders will do, which I think is fair. Right? Like, I recognize when it's happening. But But if you're a therapist who doesn't work with first responders, right, that can be kind of intimidating, and it's important for people to recognize that. But it's also important, I think, for our listeners who may be clinicians, who may be first responders, children, what have you, right, to know that it is your right to do that, though, too.
Jennifer [00:12:00]:
Exactly. And then I think that's why I go back. It's, you know, such a silly acknowledging about, you know, finding a therapist, kinda like dating. But I I say this to all my clients as well. Like, I hope, you know, it works out and and that I'm a good fit for you. But, you know, therapists are kinda like shoes, and sometimes you have to try on a couple pairs. You know, there's that pair that, oh my gosh, they look great. They're so awesome, but they rub blisters.
Jennifer [00:12:27]:
And then there's that pair that is way too loose, and it's just, you know, doesn't fit. And, you know, there can be that funky pair, but it fits just perfect. You know, you kinda have to see if that fit. And listen. You know, trust your gut. If it doesn't feel like a good fit, that's okay. It's not about the therapist's feelings about you because this space is about you.
Ashlee [00:12:52]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's so fair too. I think that's something that I've always stressed. And this may be a little thing, but to some people, it's a pretty big one too. Right? Working with first responders is, like, I do have some first responders that come right when they get off shift or what have you. And so weapons are a are a thing. Right?
