adrienne maree brown speaks with Joanna about: a social justice and liberation activism that feels good; punitive justice versus transformative justice; mercy and seeing the whole of the person; giving ourselves permission to feel everything; nourishing communities allow for a new future; emergent strategy immersions; a key insight of both pleasure activism and emergent strategies; changing the world through small and consistent actions; a way to overcome our guilt; developing a future where whiteness is not at the center; the conversation between black communities and indigenous communities; being willing to work deep at a small scale and build up.