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Episode show notes
CreditsHost: Maggie BlahaTheme music: “Thanks for the Memory” written by Leo Robin and Ralph Rainger, performed by Bob Hope and Shirley Ross in the 1938 film of the same name
In this episode, Maggie explores the concept of decluttering. She talks with artist July Laban about moving on, letting go, and starting fresh. She also interviews professional organizer Francesco Pireddu about how he helps his clients do more than just get rid of stuff; he helps them make space in their lives for what they really want.
Looking for some ceramics to decorate your space? Shop guest July Laban’s collection. You can also find her on Instagram @julybkny.
As for Francesco, he doesn’t have a website. He should really get on that.
You can find Thrift: What Your Garage Sale Says About You in a few different places on the internet. Choose how you want to follow and engage with us:
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And please be sure to rate and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which will help other people find Thrift.
*Note about the transcript: Em dashes (‘—’) have been used to indicate when a speaker doesn’t finish a thought or when the conversation between 2 speakers overlaps. [Punctuation decision inspired by Greta Gerwig.]
Episode transcript
INTRO
Maggie: On October 20, 2019, July Laban picked, quite possibly, the worst day to have a moving sale. It was pouring down rain; not even an umbrella could save you. And the air was still coated with the stickiness of summer, so wearing rain boots and a coat would only make you more miserable.
The rain didn’t deter her, though. And it didn’t deter people from stopping by and checking out the ceramics, books, and other random items she had for sale. Living on a busy street in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn probably worked in her favor.
[Jumps back in time to interview with July Laban]
July: So I’m literally on the border of Bed-Stuy and Clinton Hill, Franklin Avenue. It’s famous. And I’ve been in this apartment for 8 ½ years. The only apartment I— I moved in here when I moved to New York, so I’ve never lived anywhere else here.
Maggie: Right, right, right. And you moved from Californ—
July: From Miami. I was born in California, but I grew up in Miami.
Maggie: What was it like moving to New York?
July: It was so much easier, I had way less stuff. I was, you know, 22 or 24 or something, and I graduated college shortly beforehand, and I stuck everything in the back of a minivan—
(Sound of rainwater falling from the top of the tent that was covering us and hitting the ground)
July: Yeah, the tent’s raining down. Um, everything fit in the back of a minivan, I didn’t really have furniture, I just had my belongings. So, yeah, it was a lot easier.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: In this episode of Thrift, I’ll dive into the concept of decluttering. Why is it such a popular trend in the US right now? Why should we want to do it? And why do we tend to avoid it?
You’re listening to Thrift: What Your Garage Sale Says About You, a podcast that explores the stories behind the things we once loved and are ready to let go of.
[Theme music, 30 seconds]
Maggie: I’m Maggie Blaha, and I’m happy to be back with a new episode after taking a short break. I’ve been working on some admin for the podcast, and I recently launched my own online thrift store, which you can find on Facebook and Instagram @thriftpodcastststore. I’ll have a more permanent home for the store and podcast at some point, but for now I’m selling stuff only on my social channels. So follow my social pages, see if there’s anything you like, and buy my junk.
Now let’s get back to July’s moving sale. What I found interesting about our conversation was how different moments of transition in her life seemed to affect her relationship with her stuff. She’s moved, she’s settled down, she’s left her 20s behind and entered her 30s, which is probably the biggest transition of all. And now she was about to move again, but the experience was proving to be drastically different from her first move. She had built a life in New York, and building a life tends to come with a lot of stuff.
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
Maggie: This isn’t just a yard sale, it’s a moving sale—
July: It’s a moving sale, yeah. There’s actually a lot more junk in the house, but I’m not moving for another 3 weeks and I still have to sort through it, so I’ll be having another one of these probably the first week of November.
Maggie: What’s prompting you to move to North Carolina? Just, like, because of expenses in New York, or—
July: Um, you know, I’m doing fine here. I’m a paralegal by day, and I’m doing fine here, but I also feel like I’ve been here for 8 ½ years, I love New York, but I also want to spend some of my 30s in a new town. Just so I can look back at my life and say that I lived in a few places. And I wanted something that was completely the opposite of New York. You can’t, like, leave New York and go to another big city because it’s never going to live up to New York. But you can move to a small town and it won’t live up to New York, but just because it’s different, you know?
So I wanted something that was like a total lifestyle change. Moving here from Miami was like—not having a car, all that stuff—a total lifestyle change. So now I’m doing that in a small town. I’m excited to have a car again, especially as a potter. It’s going to be a big change, but I’m excited. And scared.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: Despite loving New York, July wanted to move to a new place with a “clean slate,” so to speak. For many of us, starting over usually means getting rid of stuff, whether it’s a book that once belonged to your ex or a pair of jeans from high school that you’ve finally accepted you’ll never (and probably shouldn’t) fit into again.
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
July: I want to start fresh. I’ve been wanting to declutter for years, but because I haven’t moved it’s like, you know, you never get around to it. I thought about actually just getting one of those pods and pretending like I was moving out, and then moving right back into the same place just so I could have a reason to go through everything. But that never happened, of course.
So, yeah, it’s a little bit of both. [A] fresh start and, every time I pick up something and think “Oh, but I really like this,—” You know what, it’d be nice to buy that couch that I’ve really always wanted, not the one that was handed down but I really like. I want to walk into my living room and it’s a different color palette, you know?
Maggie: So it sounds like you might fall more on the hoarder side rather than the constant declutterer.
July: Oh, yeah. I mean, I’m really good at helping other people declutter, I actually do that for a lot of friends and am known to be good at it. But when it’s my stuff… It started because of this big house. I didn’t have enough furniture to fill it because, you know, I was a young 20-year-old, and so I’d be like, “Oh, you’re getting rid of that? Yeah, I’ll take it! I still need some chairs to fill up this corner and that corner.” I just always took people’s furniture, and then I realized, “Why do I have 17 chairs in my house?” A lot of them being right out here, and there are still enough to sit in.
Maggie: Did you ever use all of your chairs, though?
July: Oh, yeah. So my house was the house— Like I’ve hosted Christmas dinner here, I’ve hosted a Passover, I’ve hosted a lot of big dinner parties, so I had to pull every chair out for those parties, because I like to have sit-down dinners, and I like to have everyone be able to sit. So I definitely used all the chairs.
Maggie: I mean that’s something.
July: Yeah.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: It’s funny, but not at all surprising, that July can easily help her friends declutter. When it comes to her own stuff, though, the attachment she has to it gets in the way. We can all use an objective eye to help us decide what to get rid of and what to keep. That’s why you might want to enlist the help of a professional organizer like Francesco Pireddu.
[Jumps back in time to interview with Francesco Pireddu]
Francesco: My job is an organizer. Just simply an organizer. I help people to organize their space, and that means anything from the bedroom, the living room, the office space. So, yeah, basically the living space in general.
Maggie: So why do you think a lot of people feel like they can’t organize their stuff themselves? Why do they think they need another person to come in and see how they organize their stuff?
Francesco: I think that the moment they realize that they need help is that moment when they look around in their apartment, house, office, wherever, and they see that there is so much that they cannot find anything, even their phone or small things. So that’s the point where they realize OK, I need help. Because literally, you know, you look around and you say, OK, I have too much, I don’t know how to handle this. That’s really the point when they realize that it’s important to have a third party.
Maggie: Do you help people with different severities of— Like some people who maybe just need...are there some people who are worse off than others, I guess, when it comes to the space they need help with?
Francesco: Well, sometimes there are situations which are very, very extreme, and maybe in that case those people need a different type of help. And I realize in that case that I’m probably not the person you’re looking for, you know. But in general, I’m pretty open and I’m ready to help anybody, even if I see that the situation is really, really over the top.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: I reached out to Francesco after I came across a flier advertising his services on a community bulletin board while I was walking around the Clinton Hill area of Brooklyn. The flier was simple, minimally designed, which I guess is something you’d expect from a decluttering expert.
The flier read:
Be organized!
No more clutter
Make space
Create freedom
Give yourself the opportunity to create the bright and radiant space you deserve
I look forward to meet you, help you and work with you!
I was curious about what Francesco’s work actually entails. Most of us are probably familiar with the KonMari method espoused by Marie Kondo, and how we should only be holding on to things that spark joy. I’ll admit that I’ve been a little cynical of this decluttering philosophy, which seems to be the latest trend in the self-help world. As someone with OCD tendencies, I understand the importance of having a place for everything, but I couldn’t help feeling like this new organizing and decluttering industry was only formed to make a profit off of people’s domestic anxieties.
But after talking with Francesco, I could see how passionate he is about helping his clients “make space” in their lives for more than just stuff.
[Jumps back in time to interview with Francesco]
Francesco: I talk to them first. There is a consultation, there is a meeting, so, you know, we get to know each other and see what happens. So it’s not just a question of organizing stuff, it’s a question of also—
Maggie: Their life.
Francesco: Right, interaction, communication…
Maggie: What sort of questions do you ask in this consultation? What do you want to know before you decide whether or not you can help someone?
Francesco: Well, I don’t start the conversation talking about clutter right away. No, I don’t go there. We start— We talk about so many things, yeah. I, you know, very simple things such as where are you from? What do you do? Did you see that play? That movie? Oh, I lived in that neighborhood? You know. So I get a sense— Then, slowly, we talk about the clutter.
But it’s very simple, actually, the conversation. There’s nothing really dramatic or over complicated, you know. They simply say, I need help. So, what do you think we should do? Where do you think we should start? You know, which part of the apartment—
Maggie: So, it sounds like you’re saying that it’s not about the clutter even, like there’s something more than—
Francesco: Right, there’s always something more, there’s always something more. It’s actually not even my job to go so deep to understand what’s going on there. And certainly I’m not, you know, asking very, very private questions right at the beginning. Things have to unfold spontaneously.
Maggie: Do you think that going through this process of decluttering your apartment or organizing your space could be a first step in getting yourself to a place where you could seek the further help that maybe you need? For instance, like if you’re holding on to things and you’re having a hard time letting them go, I’m assuming there’s something emotional and psychological there, and so maybe like decluttering your space could be a good first step to being like, ‘Oh OK, I’m ready now to get the further help that I need?’
Francesco: Yes, yes. That helps, yeah. The thing about reorganizing your living space is that while you’re working on it, you realize that you’re ready to go further in many different directions. So, search for help as you said, or many people go back to dating. Other people also organize dinner parties, they invite their friends. So you see, because you’re really opening up your space to so many possibilities. Finally everything is in place, organized, clear, so your friends can come and have fun.
And, also, what else? They go back to exercising. That’s another thing, yeah, they feel inspired, free!
Maggie: Not weighed down.
Francesco: Not weighed down. So time to go back to the gym.
Maggie: Would you say most of your clients are women?
Francesco: No. It has nothing to do with being a man or a woman. I will actually say that women are more courageous in the sense that they’re brave enough to say, ‘I need help.’ Actually all my clients are women, but they’re actually open and ready and courageous, and brave, as I said. Men are a bit more—
Maggie: Yeah. Or they might not even realize it’s a problem or—
Francesco: Yeah. One thing, it just came to my mind now, one of my clients, after we were working on it, she lost weight.
Maggie: Wow.
Francesco: She lost weight. She was trying to lose weight for so long and, we were talking about it, and she said, ‘I don’t know what’s going on here—
Maggie: You should put that on your flier!
(Laughter)
Francesco: I should! I should! You’re right, you’re right. I never thought about it. And she said to me, she said, ‘You know what this thing is magic, I even lost weight. But I don’t know why.’ And then I said, ‘Don’t ask, don’t ask. Just keep doing it.
(More laughter)
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: One of my criticisms of the decluttering trend has been that it seems to be targeted toward women, which is why I asked Francesco whether most of his clients are women. While it may be true that women are more open and willing to ask for help, I think that many women could take this call to declutter as just another thing that’s wrong with us, that we need to fix.
According to a survey of 3,000 US adults conducted by Offers.com in January 2019, about 30% of respondents said they had a decluttering project planned for the new year, and 60% of those responses were from women.
I’m not the only one who thinks that this decluttering trend is a feminist issue. Journalist Kate Washington published an article in the online magazine Dame in February 2018 about how the popularity of decluttering is just another way the patriarchy is telling women that “less is more.” Washington draws a comparison between how women are told to maintain their homes and their bodies.
“Minimalist homes and thin bodies have become the reigning aesthetic over the past century for similar reasons,” she writes. “In a culture of plenty, paring down is a hard-to-achieve status symbol. Getting rid of both so-called extra flesh and extra stuff is a burden falling disproportionately on women.”
For July Laban, decluttering has been a slow process since she hasn’t had a real reason to do it until she decided to move. I asked her what percentage of her stuff she would say she was trying to sell that day.
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
July: So I have a 3-bedroom, 2-storey house here, and I haven’t even gone into one of the rooms that has the 2 big storage closets, and I haven’t looked under the stairs, which is where probably so much of it is. But this is like maybe 10% or less of my belongings. This is like not even 1 room in my house worth of stuff. But I also still have people living here, so I can’t be getting rid of the big stuff yet. So I have a lot more in there that can be sold.
Maggie: Do you rent out rooms or something?
July: Yeah, I was Airbnb-ing 2 rooms for a while, and then 1 room turned into my studio, and I have 1 guest room still. I moved here with roommates and I had roommates for a long time, but they were, you know, slowly getting married and doing their thing, moving out, and I tried some Craig’s List roommates and that was awful. So I decided that I don’t want roommates anymore but I don’t want to leave this house, because I have a yard and 2 dogs so I couldn’t let this go.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: Sure, July had a lot of stuff, but she also had the space to store it, which is a rarity in New York City. Still, she had thought about decluttering plenty of times before, but it never felt urgent because she wasn’t being suffocated by her belongings.
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
July: As the move gets closer I’m like, ‘I really don’t need this.’ In the beginning it was like, ‘Oh, I need every— and, no, I’m gonna keep this, and then…’ As it gets closer and I really look around at everything I have, I’m like, ‘OK, no, I can get rid of this, I can get rid of this.’
Maggie: Do you have that fear in the back of your head that I think is what keeps a lot of people from throwing things away that’s like, ‘I’m afraid I’m going to miss this one day?’
July: Yeah, like one day I’m going to need this! Yeah, no, I know, there’s definitely that. Also, I’m an artist, so I feel like artists also hoard things because we’re like, ‘We can make art out of this one day,’ and I do a lot of different mediums. I started out as a painter and photographer, and I’ve done, you know, like weaving [and] crafting stuff. So I have like a whole bin of yarn, but I’m keeping that because, you know— Yeah, I feel like in North Carolina I’m going to have all this time on my hands for some reason, and I’m just going to sit on the porch in a rocking chair, weaving something or knitting.
Maggie: Like you do in the South.
July: Yeah, but I definitely feel like I’m one of those people, because I had the space for it. Like about a year ago I thought about just trying to rent a 1-bedroom or big studio apartment so I had a reason to be like I’m only going to keep what I need, you know.
Maggie: So you’ve actually gone out of your way to like find reasons to—
July: So that I could declutter, yeah. A big reason to declutter. Because it’s so hard when you have the space it’s so hard to be like, ‘Well, it’s not hurting me by keeping it, like I have the closet space for it. But I literally would close that closet door and never look at it again until I’m decluttering again one day.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: I want to return to the line I quoted earlier from Kate Washington’s article: “In a culture of plenty, paring down is a hard-to-achieve status symbol.” It’s interesting to think that not only do we buy things because they’re status symbols, but the very act of decluttering can, itself, be a status symbol. Lately I have been thinking about the privilege of yard sales. They do show your neighbors how much you own and how much you can afford to get rid of.
And having the means to hire a professional organizer is certainly a privilege. I didn’t ask Francesco how much he charges for his services during our interview, but I did email him a few days later to see if this was information he’d be comfortable with me sharing on the podcast. He says that it depends on the client and situation he’s working with. Sometimes he’ll charge per hour or per project, and he takes into consideration how far he’d have to travel and the type of work he would need to do.
According to Salary.com, professional organizers make anywhere between $48,000 and $64,000 a year. And a 2019 New York Times article cites that most organizers will charge an hourly rate of $30 to $300 based on the type of work required.
Francesco makes the case for acquiring a mindset where you stop to really evaluate whether you need something before you buy it. I asked him if this is something he has to do when the temptation to buy something is overwhelming. I also wanted to know how organized he would say his own space is.
[Jumps back in time to interview with Francesco]
Maggie: Are you, um, what does your own space look like? Are you a very organized person yourself?
Francesco: I am. I am really organized, yeah. I am very organized and I don’t have much. I have—
Maggie: OK, that was going to be my next question.
Francesco: I don’t have much. I have what’s necessary.
Maggie: So what does that mean?
Francesco: That means that I have what I need, which is actually more than enough. And I often find myself interested in buying something, and I always ask myself, ‘Do I actually need this?’ And most of the time the answer is no I don’t, so I don’t buy it. So I don’t need it for many reasons. Maybe because I have it already, or because it’s something that doesn’t actually do anything to me. But maybe I want to buy it because it’s trendy or other people have it or whatever, you know.
Maggie: So what type of things— Like what’s the last thing that you saw that you thought about buying but then decided that you didn’t need? Like what types of things does that usually happen with?
Francesco: It was shoes.
Maggie: Shoes?
Francesco: Shoes. [Laughs] Shoes. It was actually a beautiful pair of shoes, you know, boots. Really, really nice. And then I was like I actually have them, I actually don’t need them right now. So they can wait and that was fine. I’m going to use the ones I have—
Maggie: The moment passes and then—
Francesco: The moment passes and then it’s forgotten. Yeah, you don’t think about it anymore. Because actually in that moment you think, ‘Oh my gosh, I have to get them. They are on sale, that’s one of the things, so I won’t find them next time. Why not? I deserve them.’ [Laughs] I deserve them—
Maggie: But don’t you deserve them?
Francesco: I do but, you know, I— No, it’s—
Maggie: Having the money is probably better.
Francesco: Right. And, anyway, I decided not to.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: Since Francesco is from Italy, I was curious if he thought there might be cultural differences that make it easier for him to be more minimalistic than most Americans.
[Jumps back in time to interview with Francesco]
Maggie: So I know you’re from Italy, would you say that it’s a part of Italian culture to be more minimalistic? Like now that you’ve been living in the US for how many years?
Francesco: 9 years.
Maggie: Comparing the 2 cultures, would you say that we are more consumer-driven here than say Italians.
Francesco: Well, I think you are, I think you are, yes, but we are too. I think it’s, um, in the end it’s not really a question of culture or country or— It’s a question of personality. So, it’s really who you are, not where you are. So I would say that here, in the US, yes, I think people have more, but you actually have more. You have so much more than we do.
Maggie: Like more to buy?
Francesco: More to buy, more work, and you really have more possibilities on so many levels, so I perfectly understand that it’s not a fault, and there’s nothing wrong with that. So, it depends how you are, it’s your personality. Because I have friends, for instance, here who have very good jobs, they make a lot of money, and they are minimalistic. And I have friends who are doing OK, right, and they have so much stuff, so much, so you see it’s a question of who you are really.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: I would agree with Francesco that it comes down to personality. I mean, there are a lot of other complex factors that come into play—like where you’re from, what you do, how much you make, what’s available to you—but, ultimately, who we are has a great impact on our relationship with our stuff. It certainly has an impact on what we think is worth keeping
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
July: I do have some things I’m sentimental about. I do try to weed— Like every few years that sentimental pile gets smaller and smaller, but I do have, like I have a pair of jeans in a Ziplock bag that I wore every single day in Europe for 3 months hitchhiking across Europe, and they were never washed and they smell like that, you know, dirty punk smell, and I love it. But I keep it in a Ziplock bag and it’s like they were brand-new blue jeans when I bought them, and they look like those brown distressed jeans now. Crotchless pretty much. But I’ll never throw that away, you know. And it’s not something I hang up or anything to look at, but I could never give that away.
So I have things like that. I have like my grandmother’s jewelry, and a lot of it isn’t fancy or worth anything, but I feel like I’m not allowed to get rid of it even though I’m never going to wear it. But I actually did put a few pieces out today and tried to keep only the ones that seem like I might maybe wear them or they’re still in good enough condition that I can maybe one day pass them onto someone else. The stuff that had tarnished so bad I just got rid of.
Other sentimental items? I definitely— I was a painter, so I have a lot of paintings that I can’t part with. My ceramics I can make things and get rid of them and it’s so easy to get rid of that art, and I think it’s because they’re functional pieces, and if they’re just sitting somewhere and not being used, then they’re pointless. Like what’s the point? An art piece is just something to hang on the wall and look at, but it’s not as functional. With my ceramics and stuff they’re only— They’re not living their full potential until they’re being used.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: That’s all the stuff July couldn’t part with, but what about the stuff she was selling? How long had she owned most of the items? What are some stories behind them?
[Jumps back in time to interview with July]
July: Since I was a teenager. Like I had some patches that I made that my friend bought— Um, they’re from the Bush administration, and they’re still useful today, because— They sat in the closet all during the Obama administration, and then during this current administration they were able to come back out and still be relevant. So, that angry teenager that I was back then came back out.
And then I have a lot of college textbooks because I was an art major, and I also took a lot of electives that were about people and anthropology and sex & gender. I thought that those textbooks were interesting, so I hung on to them. Like, the math books I got rid of, but— So I have, I have some of those— That’s like the oldest thing I have, I don’t even know—
I have like a cigarette, a metal cigarette case that I bought, I think when I was 16. I was an early adopter of smoking, I guess. I just thought it was really cool or classy. But that’s old. Um, I have one of the first ever generation electronic cigarettes.
So, yeah, I’ve had a lot of stuff for probably since I was a teenager. But I did, when I moved here, I did get rid of a lot, and I do have stuff at my dad’s garage, like some real old stuff but—
I’m selling these books, and the funniest part is that I didn’t pay for most of them. A lot of them I picked up on people’s stoops that they were giving away for free, but I just threw them in with the books I did buy and just said, you know, a quarter a piece.
Maggie: Have you ever ready any of the stoop books you picked up?
(July laughs)
I’m just asking, because I pick them up all the time—
July: Probably not. I know, I know. Cuz a lot of them aren’t even novels, they’re like— I have one that’s like a craft book, Thinking Through Craft, and a lot of them are more like reference books, so I end up never really reading them.
Maggie: Because they’re books that no one has ever wanted.
July: Yeah, because it’s just a cycle. Who knows how many people have actually had ‘em? If I’m now giving them away and people are buying them, you know? They’re at least on their 3rd owner.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: The way I feel about decluttering has definitely changed since I talked to Francesco: I no longer see it as just some reality TV show ploy. It’s not always about getting rid of stuff, either; It’s about making room.
In a world of plenty, we all have our vices. We’re all likely to have—or to at least be tempted to have—too much. What Francesco provides his clients is a release, a way to navigate the psychology of their clutter.
For all you fellow book hoarders, I’ll leave you with these reassuring words from Francesco.
[Jumps back in time to interview with Francesco]
Maggie: In your experience, what are the things that most people hold on to most?
Francesco: Clothes and shoes. Clothes, shoes, and then I would say books. But, actually, books it’s fine. Even if you have a huge amount of books, they’re actually easy to organize and to place them in a really graceful and nice way.
Maggie: I’m very curious, what are the methods— As you see I have a lot of books. What methods do you recommend for organizing books?
Francesco: You see, books are beautiful. Also because they are colorful, and you can divide them on subject, and you can place them wherever you want in the apartment and they look nice. You know, sometimes you see, even if you go to hotels or Airbnb rooms or whatever, you go to the bathroom and there are books placed in a certain way, and it looks amazing. So that’s a nice thing. Actually, books you can place them everywhere, and you can play with it, because there are so many colors, shapes, you can place them in different directions, and they really, really look amazing.
So, you can play as much as you can. That’s actually the easiest thing. And then of course, you know, when my clients say that it’s time to organize their books, we go through all of them, and there is always some that they don’t need anymore, so we’ll bring them to Salvation Army or, you know, gifts.
[Jumps back to Maggie’s monologue]
Maggie: I hope you enjoyed these interviews with professional organizer Francesco Pireddu and artist July Laban. Earlier this year, I interviewed another artist, Karen Anderson Singer, about her tiny yard sale. You’ll find that episode plus the full, unedited interview in the back catalogue for the show if you’d like to listen.
That concludes another episode of Thrift. Thanks for listening.
[Outro 10 seconds]
