From ripping it up on stage with Orchid to slinging cocktails at one of Canada's top bars, Jayson Green has built a life around making things that matter. On this week’s episode, the musician, bartender, and creative lifer shares his hard-earned Five Rules For Making Stuff. We talk about knowing what not to do, why money should never be your motivator, and how letting your skills catch up to your taste is part of the process. Whether you’re starting a band, opening a bar, or just trying to get that project off the ground, this episode is your DIY pep talk.
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[00:00:00] Darin Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I'm excited to be joined by one of my favorite buds from Brooklyn, Jayon Green, who is the infamous. Frontman for the legendary hardcore band Orchid. He has gone on to front other projects like Cheeseburger and his current solo endeavor, Jayon Green and the Jerk currently has a delicious 12 inch out on DFA records. Most recently, his Toronto based bar, Doc's Green Door Lounge, was named the 15th best bar in all of Canada. He joins me today to share his five rules about making stuff. We talk about having a point of view, the importance of continuing to create, and his guiding principle of what should never be your main motivator. Let's get into the rules. Jayon, so great to see you. Always nice when two ex Brooklynites can chat coming from different parts of the world. Congratulations on your bar, Dock Stream Door Lounge, being named number 15th best bar in all of Canada. Thank you. Not surprised knowing who you are and what we're going to talk about today, but congratulations nonetheless.
[00:01:08] Jayson Surprised. I didn't even know that these lists existed when we were starting off with the bar. The main thing is we're in this neighborhood in Toronto called The Junction, which is pretty far west, and my whole thing was kind of serving the neighborhood as best I could with a place that I wanted to go to. There was a real hunger for something like this to be here, and I'm very happy that people have responded so positively. The neighborhood's really, supportive and the city at large has been super supportive.
[00:01:32] Darin Most people who move to a new country, like you did, would look at the surrounding neighborhood, wish they want a bar and hope someone else would make that for them. But what I've always enjoyed about you and our conversations over the year is that creativity and creating something has always been a part of your life, whether it's fronting a band or developing TV shows, starting a bar, why are you making stuff so important to you?
[00:01:55] Jayson That's all I've ever known. Went to college, I wanted to be a film director, and then I ended up joining this band, Orchid, and we were playing shows and touring every break, and I ended leaving school. And then I was off on this trajectory. The only thing I was doing was singing in this mildly popular hardcore band. Give yourself credit. No, no, back then, when we were doing it, it was a mildly-popular hardcore band, and then, I was just in the world. That band ended, I was in another band with our mutual friend Justin Cherno called Panthers. That band ending and then I looked up, I had no discernible skills. I was just in bands and so this creative life had sustained me for so long. I was kind of thrown into the fire, like this is the way you create the opportunity yourself that's not really presented to you.
[00:02:37] Darin Creating that opportunity, or even knowing that you can create something, is rarer than I expected. Because I come from a similar DIY background as you, it just was intuitive that if you want something and it's not out there, then create it for yourself. How has that fueled everything you've done, starting with being in a hardcore band from now opening a bar?
[00:02:58] Jayson So much of it is you don't know that it's unusual. When I was in college, we were booking the shows. If a band was touring through town, we'd put them up at our college or we'd play at a local VFW hall or whatever it was. And then I moved to New York and I had never even really set foot in Brooklyn before and I moved into this loft in Dumbo and I was like, well, I guess I'll just do it at this loft too, cause it's big enough.
[00:03:17] Darin All time.
[00:03:18] Jayson You don't know that you're not supposed to do that. I mean, there's lots of failures that come along with that, but the arrogance of youth is such a big part of it too, is you just really think you're smarter and more capable than you probably actually are. And that comes with that as something that's sort of beautiful, is that you are able to accomplish a lot of things that probably as an adult, you might be more fearful to try.
[00:03:38] Darin Yes. And I think not knowing what you can and can't do is a big part of getting things done. Yeah. But what I wish I had when I was a little bit younger are some guiding points of when I wanted to make stuff, which is why I'm happy to be talking with you today, because you're going to share with us your five rules for making stuff. And again, band, art project, award-winning bar, children, family, whatever you want to apply it to. I have found that making stuff does start from a couple of core principles. What is your first rule?
[00:04:08] Jayson Know what you don't want to do. That's always been a big one for me. And I think it comes from coming from a punk rock, hardcore background. You see things you don't like more than you see things like.
[00:04:21] Darin Oh yeah.
[00:04:21] Jayson You kind of set things up where you're creating a framework standing against something. I am not willing to cross this line. I won't do this. I won't that and then kind of build it backwards. I find that to be a very helpful way to think about things. And it also avoids the issue of compromise. If you're from the get go saying, say, for example, with the bar, I'm not putting TVs in this place. We're not showing sports. That's one rule right off the top. And then if it comes up later, be like, no, that's a thing I won't do. I won't compromise on it. And this served me for the Orchid Reunions, for building the bar out, saying things that you aren't willing to do, or you find to be corny or not worthwhile, I think is a really great way to get things started in the creative process.
[00:05:05] Darin I agree. And I think that rule number two is the other side of the coin. What's rule number
[00:05:11] Jayson Rule number two is have a point of view. That's kind of the biggest for me. So much of creating anything is being authentic to yourself. It's about being true to your passions and things that you're interested in. And no matter how niche that thing may seem to be, if you're passionate about it, there's probably somebody else who will feel passionate about that same thing as well. People respond to authenticity as opposed to reaching for something that you think people will like, but it isn't coming really from who you are.
[00:05:40] Darin I've always subscribed to the theory of a thousand true fans more than a broad point of view.
[00:05:46] Jayson Think you find people respond to passion. You'll watch a documentary about a guy who makes sushi for a living and you may have no interest in sushi but watching this person's passion it's infectious and you'll find that people will respond to things that maybe they didn't even know that they were interested in if it feels like it's coming from this really passionate authentic place.
[00:06:07] Darin One of the things about watching people who are so skilled and so talented is that it does create this internal yearning for you to go out and make something similar, but unfortunately, sometimes you don't have the exact skills to make what you want. What's rule number three.
[00:06:22] Jayson You have to let your abilities catch up to your taste. This was a big lesson for me, especially after Orchid, which seemed like a thing that kind of magically fell into place. And the next Project Panthers was really just rode on the back of that, and it seemed to all kind of click together. And then after those things ended, I found myself wandering a bit and wondering and also feeling afraid to put things out into the world.
[00:06:47] Darin Hmm
[00:06:47] Jayson my inner critic and also the outer critics.
[00:06:49] Darin You can just say Brooklyn at the time.
[00:06:51] Jayson Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, a mutual friend of ours, who actually helped me design the bar here, Michael Vadino. I was talking to him at a bar once and I was working on something and I showed it to someone, another mutual friend, and they were very critical. They said, don't release this, You'll be embarrassed by this. And then I told Michael that, and he said, don't listen to these people, put it out, keep making work. It's all gonna click together at a certain point. And the things that are failures, no one's gonna remember except for you probably. You know, what's so bad about putting something creative into the world, good or bad? It's about honing your abilities, because all these things are a huge learning curve.
[00:07:30] Darin 100%
[00:07:31] Jayson And then the problem is I have so many friends that fall into this trap and they ever put anything out because they're so afraid of it not being perfect.
[00:07:38] Darin Mhm.
[00:07:39] Jayson But it's never gonna be perfect. You have to be okay with this idea that it's not gonna be a perfect, it's gonna be this imperfect thing, and then you're gonna move on to the next imperfect thing and then to the imperfect thing. I just think it's such an important lesson is to just make stuff. Do it. Finish projects. Start something and finish it.
[00:07:54] Darin The biggest advice when I talk to people about making something is get started and be consistent and just keep at it. But if the option is to not make something or to make something, it's always going to be the latter. Yeah. But that's why I love having people like Michael in my life and other people, which ties directly into your rule number four.
[00:08:13] Jayson This is Big Epping Michael, but surround yourself with people smarter than you and listen to them. So this is a lesson that I think is also incredibly important and I learned from another mutual friend of ours, James Murphy. We were working on a failed television.
[00:08:25] Darin I remember when you were working on this.
[00:08:27] Jayson And it got very, very far along, and then it did not work out. It was a heartbreaking experience, but one I wouldn't trade. But as we were working on it, we were writing the script together, James and I, and I saw that he had a book by a writer that I really loved called Sam Lipsight. And I said, oh, I love that writer. And he said, well, he's a friend of mine. And I said, well, why don't we have him come and help us out? And James said, you know, this is exactly the right move because the best way to operate, if you're not an expert on something, bring in an expert and then listen to what they say to you, the way you should look at all of these things as if you are a film director, you have the vision and then you have these different departments, it's always collaborative, it is bringing people in who are very good at their job and taking their advice and getting out of their way. At the bar, I love to drink and I know what I like to drink, what style of cocktails, but I don't know how to make a cocktail. I brought in someone who really was incredible at it and I let him go for it. And I stayed out of his way and you let these people do what they're good at. And you learn a lot from that. To know that you're not the smartest guy in the room is a really important thing. If you think you're the smartest kind of room, you're in a s**t f*****g room. That's probably the truth.
[00:09:33] Darin Sometimes people don't want to share the credit. Yeah. Sometimes there isn't enough budget, or you think there's not enough budget or enough to share down the road. But I think that actually ties into rule number five.
[00:09:43] Jayson This kind of ties it all together for me and all the rules fall underneath it is money shouldn't ever be a motivator for anything you work.
[00:09:49] Darin Mm-hmm
[00:09:50] Jayson The unfortunate truth is that we live in capitalism. There's no way around it. It's like asking a fish, why are you talking about water all the time? I mean, we're in it. So you have to exist in the system, but to use that as your end goal is a death knell. Need to think about making art for the sake of the art itself. If you're thinking about, if I do it this way, this is gonna make me money. You're gonna come out with something that no one likes. You won't even like it. Or even worse than that is something everyone likes. Think about movies that get 100% of Rotten Tomatoes. It has to appeal to everyone, and who wants that? What is the point of that? Those things shouldn't exist in the world.
[00:10:26] Darin As far as I'm concerned. And all the projects I've ever loved, it's very clear that money wasn't at the start of it. And those were lucky enough to stay at it and a million other things that fell into place. Eventually made money off the art that they created.
[00:10:38] Jayson And that's the thing is you surround yourself with smart, talented people. You make something that you really care about. You're going to find an audience.
[00:10:45] Darin Jayon, I cannot thank you enough. If people want to visit the bar or listen to any of your bands, where can they go?
[00:10:51] Jayson The bar is called Doc's Green Door Lounge. It is in the West End of Toronto. It's at 3106 Dundas Street West, and we're open all day, we're a cafe. We've got a wine shop in the back, we've got cocktails, and if you want to listen to my music, everything's on digital. I have a 12-inch that came out on DFA called Jayon Green and the Jerks. It's a lot of the LCD people, and Orchid has been playing some shows, and we may play a few more coming up.
[00:11:17] Darin Well, hopefully I'll get to see you in Los Angeles sooner than later. Jayon, congrats on everything. Thank you very much, Darin. It's good to see.
