Photo by Andre Baranowski
Darin sits down with writer, journalist, and Esquire editor Jeff Gordinier to talk about the blues—how to face them, move through them, and maybe, just maybe, how to feel a little better by week’s end. Jeff shares five deeply personal practices that have helped him stay grounded through life’s ups and downs—from long walks and deep sleep to seeing friends IRL and reading poetry like prayer. If you’re feeling a little off lately, this episode is your gentle reminder to slow down, pay attention, and take care.
A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:
Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.
[00:00:00] Darin Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. I'm so excited to be joined by my friend and colleague, Jeff Gordinier. You may know him from his work in Esquire, writing about some of America's best restaurants. He's also an author, poet, and all around great guy. Today, he shares his five rules for curing the blues, or at least getting halfway there. He talks about finding the right balance of exercise. Sleep and connecting with friends. It's a really great and inspiring conversation.
Please note that the content of our conversation is provided for general information only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you or anyone is suffering from depression or any type of harmful thoughts, please call the suicide and crisis lifeline, which can be reached at 988.
Let's get into the rules.
Jeff, it is always a pleasure to see you, especially on the week where you were nominated for a James Beard Award for your writing. How you feeling?
[00:01:08] Jeff It's very gratifying, Darin. Thank you for asking about that. The Beard Nomination is for a story that truly is an example of collaboration and listening. A piece about rice and history, and it had a dual byline, but with whom I wrote it and reported it is George McCallman. And George is an old friend of mine of 30 years. And it was just a beautiful process to go to South Carolina and interview people together. You know what's an interesting aspect of this, Darin? I was just down in Laguna Beach visiting my parents. I was staying overnight in this guest room where I live. Back in 1991, 1992, when I could not find a job.
[00:01:42] Darin When you first got into the business of getting started, did you realize all the ups and downs and the emotions that were gonna come with dedicating your life to this?
[00:01:50] Jeff I was sending out my resume and my clips, and I would get this steady stream of rejection letters from newspapers and magazines around the country. I just hit some real lows, you know? And I thought, this is never gonna work out. I'll never find work as a writer. And revisiting that space, Darin and going back in that room, at the same time, I finally got a James Beard Foundation Award nomination. I mean, it was just fascinating. It was fascinating to contemplate that, the power of not giving up. And there were also certain practices that I undertook in 1991, personally, to combat the blues. That's really where it started for me, this five-step practice that you and I are going to discuss. I realized I can trace it back to when I was in my early 20s. And I just took very intentional steps to try and feel better, very much on my mind right now. These are more suggestions than rules because I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist, of course. And these are not meant to be substitutioned for medication or therapy to the extent that a person would need that. That deeply resonates with me.
[00:02:50] Darin It is really important to understand how to pick yourself up in this world, especially if you have dedicated your life to being a creative. I myself over the last few years, especially as I have more and more work at my computer, have realized that physical activity is a huge part of helping to get my mind right. What is rule one for you? The very first
[00:03:09] Jeff one is just take walks. I go for very aggressive, extensive walks to the extent one recently was about seven hours long on a Sunday.
[00:03:18] Darin Oh, when you said long walks, I envisioned an hour, maybe two if the weather's nice.
[00:03:23] Jeff That's a wonderful thing to do. And I do that as well. In fact, as soon as you and I stop talking, I'm going to go for a walk through Culver City and probably up the 282 steps to the Baldwin Hills scenic overlook. But sometimes I just decide to walk around the neighborhood, go get a green tea at Undergrind. I have found that just moving seems to move around your feelings, right? Like it moves around your brain. It certainly helps with my writing. I find that when I go walking around, ideas just emerge. Oh yeah. And I also find that if I begin the day with the walk, it creates this template that's just
[00:03:58] Darin I agree. I got up and played tennis this morning and I already know it's going to be a better day than when I just go and sit down at my computer. But with every exertion, there needs to come a rest to find that right balance. What is rule number two?
[00:04:11] Jeff Well, rule number two, and I'm sorry to come off as so normcore here, but you've got to get your sleep. Now, I have four children, so I'm sounding very much like a father right now. I have come to believe that there really aren't many cures in life better than a deep night's In fact, Darin, just yesterday, I did not sleep well. We'll get to rule number three soon and I'll explain why. Well basically I let myself have a martini to celebrate this James Beard Foundation nomination and as a result, when I got out of bed, I could not meet a deadlock. I just, my brain was not there. Last night, I went to sleep early after the little guys went to bed. Didn't have anything to drink, didn't overeat. I slept so deeply, woke up at six. And guess what? The story was done by nine this morning. I'm also a big fan of the rest as resistance movement like Trisha Hershey and other writers. 100%. Your creative work in particular has to be nourished by rest. Otherwise you burn out.
[00:05:09] Darin I think if there was a slogan on our family crest, it would be napping as an act of resistance. Oh, I love it. You alluded to this in rule two, and I think for rule three, you either discover it in a healthy way or you come to discover it a hard way.
[00:05:25] Jeff What is rule number three? Take breaks from alcohol and cannabis. And I know I sound very puritanical here and I don't mean to. I'm a food writer. I do drink still. I have not encountered this truth in a hard way. I have had issues with addiction. I have friends who have. That struggle is intense and is a different struggle. What I have dealt with as a professional food writer is something you've encountered. I'm sure you have access to endless pouring of wine and beer and spirits and sake. It is very easy. Not even tempting, just easy to come to it, to surrender to that. And the blunt truth we know is that alcohol and cannabis are depressive. It has been my experience that when they're used day after day, that repetition deepens the blues and there's no way around it. You will get more depressed in early spring, 2020 and just stopped altogether. I didn't drink for about two years. I didn't have any drinks at all. It was, as everyone says, so clarifying, so refreshing, lost weight. Got deeper sleep. My writing got better. The blues kind of whisked away, you know? Yeah. I have since gotten to a point of kind of careful moderation. Sure. Obviously, because of my role at Esquire and other publications, I do have to sip things and try things, and I'm happy to. I like an ice cold martini now and then. I think at this point, Darin, it's once or twice a month I'll have a drink, and I feel better. The clarity is the most amazing thing. The beauty of the morning when you don't feel any headache whatsoever, there's no better feeling. You wake up the next morning like a new person, reborn.
[00:07:00] Darin Once you've taken care of yourself, you've walked, you slept, you haven't imbibed, you're really ready to face the world. What is rule number four?
[00:07:09] Jeff See your friends in the real world. Don't just text with them, don't just talk to them on the phone. I have found it so nourishing to be very intentional about getting together with my friends. And I've noticed this happening as a different kind of act of resistance and rest and healing. I have seen this happening, Darin, all around the country with all different friends. My friend Clancy Miller, she's doing a book about picnics. She does these very intentional picnicks throughout New York City. She'll gather a bunch of friends. And I actually have a dinner series with Nastasia Lopez here in LA called Fun House. And it's the same idea. Let's get creative people around the table, musicians, artists, writers, chefs, have some good food, maybe we'll hear some music, maybe somebody will recite a poem, who knows what will happen, but being intentional, making a point of getting together in a physical way around the table, breaking bread, or going for a walk together, or go for a schvitz together, the ancient sages are not wrong about that, community matters. There's a lot of that Blue Zones longevity research that suggests people live a long time not just because of what they eat but because of how they live. Other people in Sardinia or Okinawa or Costa Rica, there's a real sense of community there and people gather with family and friends. Festivals and feasts and dances. As I near 60, I'm seeing how important that is. So do it. Don't wait. Have a picnic. Form a lunch club. Find your friends who are also struggling with the blues and go out for dinner and maybe don't drink.
[00:08:41] Darin Laid out rules for this physical nature, you've laid out, rules for connectivity. The final rule deals with creativity and finding something that really speaks to you to inspire you. What is rule number five?
[00:08:53] Jeff Read poetry. Now, poetry for me is a spiritual practice. I happen to find poetry uniquely nourishing, and it has been a major part of my life since I was a teenager. I had a period in my life of about 15, 16 years where almost every day I would find a poem that I loved. And I would open the book, hold it open with a stapler, and type the poem by hand to understand the music and the machinery, the sort of flow of the poem. I probably typed up by hand five or 6,000 poems. Wow. Right behind me now are two entire bookshelves full of poetry. I have hundreds and hundreds of books, and this is after having given away a lot for the movie, California. It's a hobby, it's an obsession, but I found it also became, as I would share those poems with friends, it became a form of secular prayer. It also just became a very intentional stepping away from the vortex, the phones, the chaos, the breaking news, the fear, the anxiety. This is a way of saying, no, I'm going to turn that all off for a second, and I'm to read. Some poems by Kevin Young, this is Jelly Roll, this is the book that I give to anyone who tells me they don't like poetry because these are poems full of life and love and energy and lust but they're also accessible. I have made a practice of this again as a sort of cure for the blues, there's a certain time of day when I find myself getting a little down and I'll reach into these stacks of books and find Marie Howe or Ada Limon, I'll find these poems by contemporary poets many times, or ancient poets. There's a sense of relief, and the relief is almost instant. It's almost like I'm forcing my mind into a different place, right? Like I'm sort of trapped in my head, trapped in anxiety, and I'll say, no, no no no, let's think about this for a second. So here's my point, in the aggregate, let's say you have a week, Darin, where you go for walks, you sleep deeply, smoke no cannabis, drink no alcohol, intentionally see your friends around the table, and you read poetry. I probably shouldn't guarantee it, but I kinda guarantee you're gonna feel better at the end of that week. Depression is a serious affliction, it is a serious problem and a lot of people, a lot of us struggle with it.
[00:10:58] Darin I do, yeah.
[00:10:59] Jeff But this is not a practice that you have to be rigid or puritanical about. This is just a way, a way of being, a way of walking forward. I love it.
[00:11:06] Darin Jeff, deeply appreciate you sharing these rules with us. If people want to follow your work or read the piece that you were nominated for, for James Beard Award, where can they go?
[00:11:16] Jeff If you Google my last name, Gordinier, plus Rice, plus Charleston, or George McCallman plus Rice plus Charlston, it will come up. George and I are really proud of that piece and very grateful for that.
[00:11:26] Darin Jeff, thank you so much and would be honored if you could finish this episode with a poem of your choice. What are you going to read?
[00:11:34] Jeff The poet Jorge Luis Borges wrote in Spanish, of course. I'm going to read in English. This is a poem that in English is called The Just. It's essentially about the quiet things that we do in life that can be acts of healing and acts of resistance. And that's why I like it so much. The Just, a man who cultivates his garden as Voltaire wished. He who is grateful for the existence of music. He who takes pleasure in tracing and etymology. Two workmen playing in a cafe in the south, a silent game of chess. The potter contemplating a color and a form. The typographer who sets this page well, though it may not please him. A woman and a man who read the last tersets of a certain canto. He who strokes a sleeping animal. He who justifies or wishes to a wrong done him. He who is grateful for the existence of Stevenson. He who prefers others to be right. These people, unaware, are saving the world.
Darin Beautiful. Jeff, always a pleasure.
Jeff Thank you so much. Good talking to you, man. I really appreciate it.
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