Kat Kinsman knows a thing or two about restaurants. As the executive features editor at Food & Wine and host of the podcast Tinfoil Swans, which is coming back at the end of March, she has spent years telling the stories behind the people who cook, serve, and gather around the table. In this episode, she shares her Five Rules for Staying Present (and Delighted) at Dinner. They are simple in theory and surprisingly powerful in practice. Believe there is no better table than the one you’re sitting at. Say the nice thing out loud. Take a mental snapshot instead of reaching for your phone. Don’t feel obligated to post. And when the night ends, send the text that says you had a great time. It is a blueprint for getting more joy out of a meal and the people you share it with.
I will admit this is something I struggle with. When you spend your life around restaurants and hospitality, it is easy to slip into work mode or get distracted by the next thing. Kat’s rules are a great reminder of why we sit down to eat in the first place. When I plan a dinner, it is almost always with the people I love the most. Friends, family, the people who make life feel a little bigger. Her approach pushes me to slow down, put the phone away, and actually live inside those moments. Because if you are lucky enough to be at a table with people you care about, there really is no better place to be.
Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
Introduction
Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.
Today, I chat with executive feature editor at Food & Wine, the host of Tinfoil Swans, Kat Kinsman, who shares her five rules for staying present and delighted at dinner.
She talks about how looking at your phone can leave you wanting more from a night out, to be open and honest about what you love, and that if you embrace this approach, the next meal out might be the best one you’ve ever had.
So let’s get into the rules.
Catching Up
Kat, it’s so good to see you. I believe the last time I was with you in the room, I was drinking a mint julep watching horses run the derby.
Thanks for taking time to sit down and chat about the fire rules.
Truly my pleasure. And I think I could use a julep, some burgoo, or a slush right now.
That sounds very delicious.
Being the executive features editor of Food & Wine and host of the Tinfoil Swans, when going out to dinner, do you bring a professional criteria with you at all times?
Oh, hell no. It can become that busman’s holiday kind of thing. So much of what I edit and write about and care about is not about the food. Sure. It’s extremely people-centric. Unless I am on a particular mission, I’m there to be happy in a restaurant. Moreover, I’m happy about who I’m with. I’m not the person they deploy to go out to restaurants. I am lucky enough that I get to go out and just—
The idea of just being at dinner, especially when it’s your profession, doesn’t always happen.
No.
How do you deal with that weight of having to eat out, especially when you’re scouting for best new restaurants when all you want to do is be eating tuna fish and crackers at home?
I don’t go out very often. I’m such an ambivert that it takes a lot to get me out. Recently, I had almost a year after my husband had a heart attack, we really couldn’t go out to restaurants that much. It really reset why and how I go out to restaurants because we have to live within a certain amount of constraints.
When I go, I go with tremendous intent for joy.
I love that.
Because I don’t often have to do it on the job, I can get things for my own pleasure. I just want to be open. I want to have a great time. Leaving the house is really difficult for me, sometimes slightly gore phobic. But once I bust out the door, I’m just thrilled I’m out there and I want to make the most of it that I possibly can.
Memorable Meals
It being wintertime and heading into a cozy restaurant in New York City, there are few greater pleasures in life. And I know that you have lived a life of memorable meals and dinners. Looking back on them, which ones stand out the most?
Fun thing, I just had the greatest restaurant meal of my life.
Oh, well, then this should be easy.
Causa in Washington DC. Have you been?
Not yet, but a boy can dream from across the country.
Carlos Delgado is just making absolute magic there. I got to town early. I decided to take myself out to dinner. Incredible. A lot of my friends are chefs. It’s not like they can go out on a Friday night super easily. So I was like, you know what, I’ve been hearing about this place, I’m gonna go.
Sat down at the counter. From bite one, it’s a Peruvian tasting menu. Let’s go. It’s a tour of Peru and all the different regions of it. And I’m sitting there and I’m having this reconstructed oyster with Leche de Tigre. And I’m listening to Gangster’s Paradise. I’m drinking this absolute banger of a non-out cocktail that was based in the ferments that they’re making with kombucha.
I’m just zenning out because I don’t have to think about anybody else’s pleasure but my own because I’m just by myself. Rare. The whole thing is being driven by somebody’s vision. The hospitality is absolutely incredible. Everybody’s on those headsets so it feels like pluribus I am carol and they are there for my pleasure.
There could be worse things on a Friday night in DC.
When I experience really good food or art or music or anything like that, I get this full body sensation.
I understand that.
Tasting menus, controversial or whatever. I think about the shock and awe that has gone into some of them that have been my favorite restaurant meals ever.
Yeah.
I feel really incredibly lucky. They’re so concentrated. They’re so thoughtful. With Carlos, he’s got such a point of view. He’s a nerd about this stuff. I love it.
Being able to be so intentional and so excited about going out to dinner after all these years is very inspiring, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for staying present and delighted at dinner.
The Five Rules
Rule 1 — There Is No Better Table Than the One You’re At
We live in a world where new restaurants open up all the time in a way that when you’re keeping score or track of it, it could be overwhelming. Your rule number one talks about shifting that mindset and waiting for the right moment to go to a place. What’s your first rule?
I am lucky enough that when I do have that intentionality and go out to dinner with people, I end up absolutely convinced there is no better place, no better table in the entire world than the one I’m at right then.
I love that.
It happens a lot of times at friends’ houses. It happens at restaurants. And I think about everything that crosses my feed all the time. This highly curated, all these restaurants, all these experiences, all these fancy kinds of things we can do.
And I was like, no, this is exactly where I want to be. There’s nowhere better in the universe right now.
And that’s not just me hyping myself up, even though things I love, I love very, very intensely. It’s important that I get to that state and that just keeps me at the table. Why not be happy with what I have right there?
I share that same passion. When I love something, I love it so much and I want to tell people all about it. Or if I enjoy dining at someone’s house, I’m always asking when can we get together again, when can we do it again.
Yes.
And I know you’re supposed to play it cool, but that’s never been part of my personality, which ties directly into your rule number two.
Rule 2 — Wear Your Heart on Your Sleeve
Wear your heart on your sleeve.
Is there any other way to do it?
I dated people who use that as currency. They wouldn’t say I love you. They wouldn’t say the nice thing. No, thanks. No, you don’t do that.
I am given to quite often if I’m feeling that thing about no more FOMO and thinking this is the best place I could be in the world. I say it out loud.
Yeah.
Because why the hell not? Why not say to the people at the table, I’m so glad you’re here with me and that we get to experience this together.
I say it to the wait staff.
I was at EMP some years back. I was having a ball. Our server was like, you’ve gone out of your way to say what a great time you’re having. Are you worried that I think you’re not?
It’s like, hey, I love that we’ve established this dialogue here. I want you to know you’re doing a great job here.
Say you love the thing. Say it’s delicious.
I’d rather be warm than cool any day of the week.
Rule 3 — Take a Mental Snapshot
Once you’ve gotten to the place that you want to be and you’ve realized that there’s no better seat in the room, the second part of that equation of really enjoying yourself is staying present.
There’s no better way to get out of the moment than reaching to your pocket and pulling out that phone.
No. No.
And it’s tough because a lot of times content is currency. If I don’t have the evidence, did I really go?
Your rule number three talks about how to avoid reaching for your phone when a plate hits the table.
Take a mental snapshot.
Because of professional hazard, I do have to whip out my phone sometimes and take a quick picture, but it’s more documentation.
Of course.
This actually goes back to there was a book that I read as I was getting married called The Conscious Bride. This would have been 20 years ago.
It’s about stopping for a second and taking a snapshot with all of your senses about everything that’s going on around you.
You don’t even have to let anybody know you’re doing this.
Take that same thing you do with your phone and capture all of that and deliberately tell yourself, I’m going to remember this. How I feel. What are the sensations I’m having right now? What do things taste like? Who am I with?
Consciously do that and lock it in. Put that on your reel in your head.
You have to do it with intent so you can just come back to those because I definitely have those moments then when I’m really depleted, depressed, lonely, whatever it happens to be. And I go back into that, getting to experience it all over again.
It’s just a really fun way to be.
Rule 4 — Don’t Feel Obligated to Post
That idea of having these personal moments for yourself is really important because it does keep you wanting to go back out into the world to have dinners and try new things.
That being said, sometimes you do take those photos, but that doesn’t mean you have to share them right away, which ties directly into your rule number four.
Don’t post.
I should maybe amend that. Don’t feel obligated to post right then.
Yes.
You’re still you. You still had the experience. You still did the thing. It’s not pics or it didn’t happen.
Who are you trying to prove anything to?
If you want to share it because you’re hyped on it and you want other people to have that joy as much, that’s beautiful. If you want to give a bump to the restaurant after you have left, of course.
For so long, there’s been that feeling of obligation.
The really great meals that I have and the best times where I’m connecting with people over this are times when I’m not pulling my phone out at all.
I forget to.
And it gets to the end of the meal and maybe I’m with somebody. Before we recorded, we were talking about Yassi Salik. Realize we had gotten to the end of the meal, had not taken a picture together.
And that was because I was just so caught up in the joy of her presence, of the food, of the experience that we were having, where I just plain old forgot.
And it was so freeing.
The second I pull out my phone, it’s this Pandora’s box. I get too caught up in it. I doom scroll.
But, you know, some things can just be for you.
And that’s totally fine.
Rule 5 — Text When You Get Home
This idea of doing things for yourself and not having to prove you’re out in the world really is a lost art.
Yeah.
You mentioned the idea of really understanding that the people you’re with, the company you’re keeping at the table is exactly who you want to be with is a major part of your fifth and final rule.
You should text on the way home and say you had a great time.
Maybe it’s because I’m older. Maybe it’s because I haven’t had to date for a long time. I don’t care. Double text. I don’t care.
Wear your heart on your sleeve because you never know when you’re going to get the chance to say that thing again.
Be a sloppy, messy heart of a person.
Let people know you had a great time with them and that you want to do it again.
If I don’t text in, I’ll feel silly for having waited too long. And then it’ll be like a month or a year that I don’t respond because I’m embarrassed that I’ve waited so long.
But just send the text.
I’ve texted on the group thread while waiting in ballet.
Oh, hell yeah.
I’m sorry if my crime is that I told you I loved you too often.
Oh, screw me.
And that we had a great time at dinner again. And let’s find another date.
Sorry. My bad.
Where to Find Kat
Kat, appreciate you wearing your heart on your sleeve and sharing it with everyone.
If they want to read what you’re writing, if they want to listen to the podcast, or just see when you do go out to eat and you do post, which I’m sure has to hit a very high threshold, how can they follow you and see what you’re up to?
On Instagram, it’s Kat Kinsman. Same on threads. On foodandwine.com. I’m pretty easy to find on there.
The podcast, which is coming back at the end of March, is Tinfoil Swans, available anywhere you get your podcasts.
Perfect timing. Look at us.
Kat, so great to see you. And hopefully we can have a meal on or off the grid sometime soon.
I’m going to text you in five minutes and tell you what a great time I had right here.
Thank you so much.
