Hi there,
Does every week feel like a month to you right now, it does to me! On many levels lol
As with ever week, I am grateful to Anna de Nardin who creates these amazing graphics for this platform, and to Hannah Litt, who continues to shine a light on safe spaces for women and men to imagine beyond our current structures.
Anyhoo, we are back with the next instalment of the In The Business of Healthy masculinity conversation and this week is yet another corker - I promise you!
Before I introduce you to my latest guest, Debbie Danon, I wanted to share an invitation to all you men out there, or you to partners of men who you feel could get value from two days of slowing down, connecting, and reflecting with an intimate peer group of max 10 men:
More about Debbie as follows:
Whether we admit it or not, we are all navigating in a world that is unequal and inequitable by design. So it’s no surprise that among activists and change-makers seeking to challenge the status quo, moral injury, exhaustion and burnout are all too common. And sometimes, even with the best intentions, it’s not clear to us how we are upholding the systems we seek to dismantle - for example through extractive overwork, or succumbing to saviour or martyr paradigms.
In this context, Debbie is passionate about enabling values-led leaders to rebel against harmful systems and limiting conditioning, so that they can lead at their Authentic, Balanced and Courageous best. Time and again, Debbie’s clients emerge from working together feeling seen, liberated and better equipped to respond to even the most complex leadership and civil society challenges.
With 20+ years experience across NGO leadership, interfaith dialogue facilitation, corporate leadership development and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion consulting, Debbie founded Rebel Leadership in 2021 as a coaching practice to support change-makers to lead with her counter-cultural framework of Rebel Authenticity, Balance and Courage.
Debbie’s clients range from NGO and charity leaders, to NHS managers, to leaders in social enterprises and mission-driven scale-ups. Recent clients have included One NHS Finance, The Diller Foundation, Amnesty International, International Alert, Bloody Good Period and NUS. Debbie has also taught inclusive coaching practice as Adjunct Faculty for Thirdspace, the only accredited school for Integral Coaching in the UK.
Justice and liberation principles are woven into everything Debbie does. Her approach is supported by a deep understanding of somatics (body work) and anti-oppressive practice. As such, her work attracts client referrals from folks from marginalised identities, including folks of colour; queer, trans and non-binary folks; folks who practice a faith such as Islam or Judaism; and disabled folks. She does not take for granted the trust marginalised folks place in her and Rebel Leadership, so Debbie attends regular supervision and undertakes ongoing independent study to become more skilful, anti-oppressive and liberatory in her approach.
Since the war in Israel/Gaza, Debbie has been a sought-after partner for groups seeking to create interfaith listening spaces. She has collaborated with Three Hijabis activist Amna Abdullatif developing guidance and sessions for organisations on creating compassionate, trauma-informed spaces for staff who are most affected by the conflict. She is also in the midst of a new, emergent collaboration building capacity for peacebuilders on the ground in the region and around the world. Watch this space!
Clients have recognised Debbie for her ‘deepest emotional intelligence’, ‘extensive knowledge’ and ‘total unshockability.’ For her own part, Debbie describes her life as a commitment to healing, liberation and love.
Outside work, Debbie is a cofounder of inclusive Progressive Jewish community Makor Hayim, which is also part of this commitment.
This is a DEEP one, let’s go!
People don't grow in a place of shame
“When there’s such an abuse of positional or identity-based power, there is no nicey-nicey about it. We have to be like, hello, this is not okay. But also people don’t grow in a place of shame. So it’s a tightrope, really.” - Debbie Danon
This insight from Debbie is so potent! That tightrope is real and I often look at this as we can;t just keep “meeting people where they are at” as that is normally code for meeting them in comfort, which rarely leads to change. However spaces need to be safely designed to allow for discomfort to be explored, so this is a tightrope that I find myself dancing across often.
To what extent would you agree, challenge, or anything else about Debbie’s reflections in this video?
We grow in the depths, not on the surface
“With that stuffing down of emotion or that stuffing down of vulnerability, where’s the willingness to go down to possibility or relationship, which are less comfortable. The deeper you go, the less comfortable it gets for sure. Swimming on the surface of the Lake. It’s all very comfortable.” - Debbie Danon
I’m not sure about you, but for over 25 years I have dealt with international business environments that value surface level, transactional relationships over depth.
Sure you can make some friends that go deeper, but at a senior, growth-at-all-costs level, transactions and disembodiment are actively rewarded. Not caring and not feeling are safety barriers against accountability and systemic understanding, certainly within publicly-traded spaces.
To what extent would you agree and/or challenge my experience here? How does Debbie’s insight land with you?
Are there any areas within your life where you are stuffing down vulnerability or not listening to your body as it feels uncomfortable? What could be possible for you if you explored those feelings with curiosity, and not fear?
Disconnection as a block to 'openings'
“Any one of those people, including myself, could have put their hand up in that meeting and said, no, ‘we do not do that here. We don’t talk down to people. We don’t talk over people. We don’t abuse other people, tell them they’re less than publicly. Because that’s such a disconnection, I see, particularly in workplaces,” - Garry Turner
Have you had a similar experience before? How did you handle it?
Rebel Leadership as a way to re-integrate ourselves
“We’ve only got one body, one brain, one being, even though we compartmentalise quite well as humans in late stage capitalism, right?” - Debbie Danon
This insight from Debbie cut life a knife through butter for me personally! I spent the first 35 years of my life with an outwardly looking ‘nice life’ whilst internally I was a conditioned brain walking around on a body!
To what extent do you live in your head and/or suppress feeling, or do you feel you are able to listen with head, heart, and gut intelligence combined?
It has only been the past few years that I have started to become more embodied - connecting head, heart, and gut - and the hardest part has been allowing feeling after many years of emotional and feeling suppression.
Indeed as we look at world events today, Debbie’s comment feels to have a lot of truth for those so-called world leaders.
What will you try and experiment differently with today as a result of Debbie’s insight above?
Find your ‘right size’
“In British culture we play ourselves down, viewing humility as being smaller, but in the Jewish tradition humility is not being too big, but also not being too small. Because if you’re playing too small then you are depriving the world of your gifts by prioritizing your fear. So my invitation to you is to find your right size.” - Debbie Danon
I found this insight from Debbie really meaningful. As someone myself who has consistently sought to find my ‘right size’ within corporations, and continue to!, seeking to expand the limiting boxes that such structures impose, I witness daily that it can be easier to stay in fear than ‘rock the boat.’
Yet if we don’t push to find our right size, what’s the point honestly? What are you thinking and what are your thoughts? How do you, or may, find your ‘right size’ within your context. Let Debbie and I know in the comments.
A critical reminder as we go into this week:
Until next time
We hope that you join us in this exploration, and please do feed back and share with your networks if you are getting value.
Finally, if any of the above questions have ignited curiosity within you, I am hereif you are looking for a 1-1 Thinking Partner that can be in your corner by voice note, virtually, and in-person, I have found 5 x 60 minutes calls + unlimited voice note communication to work the best.
If you are ready to embrace the journey towards a healthier relationship with yourself and those around you, and the goodness that brings, at home and at work, drop me a line at garry.turner@radicality.co.uk.
Episode #23 of the podcast will be published next Mon 23rd March 2026 psychology lecturer and host of the Eighty Percent Mental podcast, Peter Olusoga.
Here is a clip to whet your appetite in advance:
I am always interested in your reflections, challenges, and anything else that piques your curiosity with these updates.
Wishing you a safe, connected, and activated week ahead.
With love
Garry Turner
garry.turner@radicality.co.uk
+44 7928 979358
