Hi there,
We are racing towards 20 episodes of this conversation (yes my math is great ;0) ), and I hope that you are getting some value.
It is interesting seeing some of you unsubscribing, and some new people coming onboard. A reflection of life’s ebb and flow.
Into this weeks episode #19 of ‘In The Business of Healthy Masculinity’ and it is a corker with Eldership community builder Zena Me.
Let me tell you more about her as follows:
Zena is a Writer, Teacher, Speaker and Systemic Consultant on the subject of Eldership, Leadership, Culture Making and Social Cohesion.
She works with Leaders and Organisations who long for social cohesion in Executive Leadership Teams, Organisations and Communities.
Over the past thirty five years Zena has worked with Leaders in the International Corporate World, Local Communities, Politics, Government Agencies, Non-Profits and Private Equity Business. She’s been a Tutor and Facilitator at Cranfield Business School working on their High Performance Leadership Programmes and now runs her own International Community of Elders Business Skool, which she founded in 2022 to explore the missing function of Eldership in Organisations.
Her intuitive skills and ability for strategic thinking and depth psychology meant that she rose quickly through the ranks. Early in her career she become involved in a large scale Organisational Culture Change to transform Greater Manchester Police from a Force to a Service. This ‘Culture Change’ was a response to a deep Organisational Trauma, triggered by a Senior Leadership and National Political Crisis.
This rich, complex experience of culture change led to her twenty six year exploration into Conscious Leadership, Culture Making and Social Cohesion.
In 2006 she wrote and performed a One Woman Show using Augustus Boal’s Theatre of the Oppressed process to share her own story and take the audience through the exploration of the their own Ancestral History and how this impacts who they are and their belonging.
She’s now a leading edge influencer in the field of Systemic Leadership, Culture, Organisational Development and Human Transformation.
Zena’s currently involved in the film ‘Boarding on Insanity’, which explores Boarding School Culture and the hidden trauma that influences and pervades our Human Organising Systems. The film has been shown in the UK Houses of Parliament and has led to her involvement in deeper research into this field with The London Southbank University, where she now advises on the hidden power dynamics and hidden historical trauma in Human Organising Systems.
Let’ dive into this incredible conversation together, which you can find on the following platforms:
* Apple
* Spotify
* YouTube
'Culture Making' as an intentional act
“We tend to call it culture development or other words for it. But for me, a leader is a culture maker. We have the capacity to actually make culture and create culture” - Zena Me
Zena’s insight here is one of THE most important I have ever heard.
When we talk about organisational design, it can feel a bit theoretical. When we see that culture is an intentional design protocol and power-holders have the power, and responsibility I would add, to leverage that in healthy ways, it really opens up a different type of conversation.
Heck, it even allows us to re-imagine from a blank page what healthy, just, and fair looks and feels like. If we want to do that.
I’m curious how Zena’s comments land with you?
Possible interplay between accountability and discomfort
“There’s going to be things that emerge where we go, oh, that’s uncomfortable. But if we’ve created a space that goes, yes, but we have to go through the discomfort and this is not about blame or judgement. It is about making people accountable.” - Zena Me
This insight from Zena hits me hard! I have seen for years people confuse the difference between discomfort and accountability.
Indeed, I find it particularly interesting that our systems and leadership approaches, generally, reward compliance (less discomfort). Certainly within my context of more traditional industries like chemicals and supply chain.
To what extent would you challenge or agree with this, and could this have links to the fact that those with power are not used to and/or are unwilling to be uncomfortable?
What are you thinking, feeling, and what are your thoughts?
Eldership for social cohesion
“There was a lot of trepidation because there was so much division. People were really frightened stepping into that room. But by the end of it, everybody was chatting with one another and they were humanising each other instead of identifying with all these divisions, which is so powerful.” - Zena Me
When Zena shares this story of facilitating a session with a local political party, it really struck a chord with me. As someone myself that is highly politically active, I have found it difficult at times to have meaningful and uncomfortable/constructive dialogue with fellow party members.
For example, ideology can easily dehumanize the ‘other,’ regardless of who that other is, and I observe the same dehumanization happening within big business spaces. Only last week I heard the following statement on an investor call:
“We optimised our structure during the second half of the year, to further intensify our sales efforts, and to drive cost effectiveness throughout the company, resulting in an overall reduction in the number of FTEs.”
FTEs = human beings with families, part of communities, equally human.
Yet financial language allows for a disconnection of decisions taken, and impact made.
It seems to me, by design.
What are you thinking, feeling, and what are your thoughts?
Eldership does not equate to age
“So just because you get old doesn’t mean you get to be an elder. So you can get older,
and not elder. So being an elder is something very, very different. It’s something that holds space for those rites of passages for the community.”- Zena Me
There are some brilliant, I feel, current examples of what Zena speaks to here.
One is Greta Thunberg. Whatever one thinks about her, it is difficult to challenge her eldership in actions and deeds, despite being young in her years. Interestingly people close to me who were highly critical of Greta a few years ago, are today hugely respectful of her.
Another is Bisan Owda, a young reporter and survivor of the erasure of the Gazan [people has been ongoing for the past 7-+ years, but accelerated since the awful events of Oct 7th.
It is an interesting contrast to look for corporate or big business examples of such eldering in leadership positions. Garry Ridge, from episode 5 of this platform is one lovely example, as is Rafik Zahy in episode 11, however they are not so visibly common in my experience.
I’m curious what you are thinking and feeling based on Zena’s clip above, and my own reflections.
Until next time
We hope that you join us in this exploration, and please do feed back and share with your networks if you are getting value.
Finally, if any of the above questions have ignited curiosity within you,I am hereif you are looking for a 1-1 Thinking Partner that can be in your corner by voice note, virtually, and in-person, I have found 5 x 60 minutes calls + unlimited voice note communication to work the best.
If you are ready to embrace the journey towards a healthier relationship with yourself and those around you, and the goodness that brings, at home and at work, drop me a line at garry.turner@radicality.co.uk.
Episode #19 of the podcast will be published next Mon 2nd March 2026 with executive coach, author, and equine facilitator, Heather Hanson-Wickman:
Here is a clip to whet your appetite in advance:
I am always interested in your reflections, challenges, and anything else that piques your curiosity with these updates.
Until next time, take care and have as good a week ahead as possible,
Garry Turner
garry.turner@radicality.co.uk
+44 7928 979358
