Have you noticed how quickly conversations about gender turn into competitions about who has it worse? One side insists men are the real victims—look at the loneliness epidemic, the education gaps, the suicide rates. The other side counters that women are the real victims—look at the violence statistics, the unpaid labor, the centuries of having our voices silenced. Both sides race to claim the prize of victimhood. But what might be possible if we quit playing the blame game?
[00:02] Chelle introduces writer of the Substack publication - Matriachal Blessing - Celeste Davis.
[02:12] Celeste and Chelle discuss how online (and offline) gender debates often devolve into opposing victim narratives and why this competitive framing is ineffective.
[05:52] Celeste explains the Drama Triangle dynamics and how the Victim–Persecutor–Rescuer cycle keeps us stuck in blame rather than solutions.
[08:42] Chelle reflects on how hard it is to escape reactive roles, noting how our brains cling to them for a false sense of safety.
[09:41] Celeste introduces the conflict escalation model, outlining the three stages — rational, emotional, and fight — and how rising tension shifts goals from compromise, to winning, to wanting the other side to lose.
[13:59] Celeste and Chelle discuss how patriarchy (and other power systems) benefit from keeping men and women divided.
[19:12] Celeste and Chelle explore “two truths at once,” using the Richard Reeves example to illustrate how focusing only on male pain OR only on male harm creates incomplete stories.
[23:28] Celeste shares her personal story, from a Mormon upbringing and forgiveness-only tools, through awakening rage, to eventually developing a more balanced view: men are harmed and men harm.
[26:21] Celeste shares how she speaks and supports her sons and daughters. [30:43] Chelle reflects on teaching her own sons to see and “bend” systems, not just comply with them.
[33:17] Chelle and Celeste highlight the difference between fitting in and belonging, and how long-term benefits of authenticity outweigh short-term approval losses.
[35:56] Post-show with Chelle & Evie
