What’s the difference between arrogance and confidence? As it turns out, they couldn’t be more different.
We have feelings on this topic - BIG feelings. And we’re not holding back.
In this episode, we dive into what society teaches many of us about being proud of ourselves (but not too proud), how self-esteem (or a lack thereof) sets the stage, and on the importance of practicing saying “thank you” when receiving compliments (even if we feel bad about accepting them.)What do you think we can do to encourage more confidence in ourselves and each other? We’d love to hear your thoughts.
Want more of Lara and Rowan?
Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.
Transcript
Please note, we don’t carefully review these transcripts so there may be some errors.
[00:00:00] Rowan: Why do you think we look at somebody posting pictures of themselves, and we think that is an arrogant, narcissistic person and not like, oh, hey, good for that guy. He looks good today. he's smiling, he is happy and enjoying his life.
I'm happy for him, . Hey there, another week, another topic. I'm Rowan.
And I'm Lara
and you're with us on unboxing It. And this week we have got a doozy. i'm really excited to talk about this because I feel like I have a lot of experience with it and it is the difference between arrogance and confidence.
It's a big one, right?
[00:01:03] Lara: It is, and it's something I talk to a lot of people about as well, and I have a lot of feelings and opinions about, so we're gonna have fun with it.
[00:01:10] Rowan: So. I have been online and you have been online for a very long time. Longer than I think either of us wanna admit, and probably more frequently than either of us would like to admit at one point or another. And one of the things that I have noticed is there have been trends. There have been trends around things like. Is it cool to take selfies or is it not cool to take selfies? How much should you talk about yourself? And, what do all these things say about you as a person? And those are just online examples, but we all know that there are some people out there who show off a lot.
There are other people who maybe are a little quieter and. Still have no problem talking about themselves. And I think there's a difference between what we perceive as arrogance and what is actually arrogance and what we perceive as confidence and what is actually confidence in your opinion, Lara, what do you think the main difference is?
And then I'm gonna give my own,
[00:02:17] Lara: well, I think it's more complicated than that. So I'm gonna back it up a little bit. Ooh. And then we'll go beyond that. I do think that arrogance and confidence get mixed up. A lot. And I think that like so many other things we talk about, there is a difference between what we say they are and then how people behave when it comes to those things.
So if people say it's really important to be confident, but then they see somebody talking about what they do well, they're like, you are being arrogant. And you're like, actually I think that person's being confident. So part of the. I don't know if it's a problem, but it is a challenge. Is that what people say you're doing?
can be sort of turned into something bad because it makes them uncomfortable because people wish, like they're jealous, I think to some extent, right? Like I wish I could tell people I was great, but I'm not. Right. Or like, some of the things we've been told to stay small, and I think Canadians have this even more.
Apparently Canadians and Australians are sort of in the same boat. But the whole tall poppy syndrome, I don't know if you've heard that. Like you're not supposed to stand out. If you stand out, you're being I don't know if the word bad, but you're being arrogant.
You're being something that we don't like.
[00:03:37] Rowan: You're showing off.
[00:03:38] Lara: Yeah. Right. But showing off shouldn't show off, which means that we stop allowing ourselves to think we're good at things like we have been taught to not think we're good at things. So to me, confidence is believing that you're good at something, believing that you're able to do something, being, proud of what you're doing. Arrogance is probably like, you're not really good at it, but you're like walking around telling everybody you are like, there's like this, bigger, I'm trying to make people believe something that's not true, versus I simply own that I'm good at something and it's okay for me to talk about it sometimes.
[00:04:17] Rowan: Hmm hmm. That's a good perspective for sure. I went really deep into it for my last book, one sunny Afternoon. I'm not gonna pull the book out and search for it right now, but I think that would've required some planning, which I did not do. The amount of times we just hop on a call and go, okay, what are we talking about today?
And we just go, which is what we plan to do in its own way because it's authentic, right? We have these, like, fresh conversations, but I do not find, arrogance to, first of all, I don't find it to be an attractive quality, and I have noticed that I'm able to tell the difference now. That is because I was someone who had very little to no confidence for a good part of his life, and masked by being arrogant in places where I felt I could be arrogant.
So I feel like I'm coming to this with a little bit of. Personal knowledge and in my experience, the difference between confidence and arrogance is this, confidence is innate. It's just something you feel. It is something that does not require competition. It is all within myself. I feel good because I am me.
I know that I am an okay person because I am me. I know that what I bring to the table is unique and is very much in line with who am, and I don't need to compare myself to everyone else in order to feel that way. Arrogance requires comparison, arrogance and insecurity are one and the same.
And most people who are arrogant, not always, I think you can make some cases, and I'm sure psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers would come back and say like, no, there are some cases where that's not true. I agree, but I think for a lot of people. Arrogance requires a deep, deep insecurity. When I was feeling arrogant, it's 'cause I didn't like myself, and what I had to do was compare myself to everyone around me.
So sometimes that would make me feel worse about myself, but sometimes it would make me. Feel better if I had more. I'm just using examples. These are not necessarily real examples, but if my body was somehow what I considered better than somebody else's, or if I made more money than somebody else, or if my children were better behaved than somebody else's, it always requires comparison to others.
But you don't need that with confidence. Confidence is just there. It is like a centering of self.
[00:06:54] Lara: Yeah, think that's really a big one because thinking you're better than somebody. If we go to the body one, I think of all the people who spend so much time telling people how bad their bodies are, like, who cares what other people's bodies look like?
Why do you need to say yours is better versus feeling good about your body, right? Like, to me, confident, I have a great body, whatever it looks like, and. I'm happy with it and I love it. And arrogance is, well, if you just did what I did and if you could just be like me and if you could stop being lazy, then you would be better off too.
You didn't do it, but I did. Right? Like. the comparison thing is huge. And I was, the word bluster comes out, right? Like, you're just like, I need to loudly proclaim that this is true and that I am right, and that I am better versus just like. Accepting that you're who you are, that you're good at something, and being willing to talk about it, but not needing to be like, here ye here ye please know that I'm better than all of you.
[00:07:58] Rowan: Exactly. Exactly. One of the examples that I could give that is true to life for me before I came out as a man and started living my life as a man, I lived my life as a woman, and I also lived my life as a mom. That did not make me the most comfortable, but that was like really, really, really subconscious.
I just knew that the whole experience felt really awkward not having kids. I love my kids. I'm so glad I had children, but being in like the mommy world, never ever felt right. And on top of that, I became a parent very young. I was 20 when my first child was born. He's now 28 years old. Yes, you can do the math.
I'm getting up there and. I felt so out of place because in my mind, if I had a child, I was supposed to be more settled. I was supposed to have, you know, more financial stability than that. I was supposed to maybe own a home. I had this whole story built up in my head around the things that I was supposed to have, and here I was, this teenager, essentially, I was barely out of my teenage years with this child next to no money, struggling every day.
And it became my whole identity. So I ended up getting married. We bought a house when I was 22. I had my own car by the time I was 25. We had two new cars in the driveway. Had another child at 26 and another at 30, and somewhere in there. I started to feel like I had made it, if you will, and I would look sometimes, and I'm so embarrassed by this, I'm still very embarrassed by this, although I forgive myself because I know where that has come from.
But I'm gonna say it because I think this is still happening in different ways all over the place, and especially sort of like in the mommy circles, but. I would look at other people, say, I don't know, people maybe I went to high school with, or people that I saw down the street or whatever who were the same age as me who were struggling more than me, and I felt superior.
Isn't that awful? you know, I'm somebody who lived on the street when I was a teenager, and here I was feeling superior, like I had made it, and I held my head up very high, and I was still nice to everybody, but in my head I was like, look at me. Look at me and how, successful I am in this role.
And it was because the entire thing felt wrong and deep, deep, deep inside. I felt like a fraud. I was highly insecure, and you don't have to be a trans guy trying to live as a woman and a mother to feel that way. There are lots of people who come into money or come into fame or come into success of one kind or another, who deep down think to themselves, I don't deserve this.
Everything's gonna fall apart in a heartbeat. That imposter syndrome is real and they're so scared of it. We, 'cause I was like, that are so scared of it, of this house of cards that we've built, so to speak, that we try to hold ourselves up at the top with our noses up in the air as much as possible. And a lot of people.
Who might be listening to this right now are not going to like to hear that because it's gonna feel like I'm calling them out, and if it does feel like I'm calling you out, I'm probably calling you out.
[00:11:21] Lara: I think so much of this comes from the fact that we are not supposed to be confident, but we are supposed to be confident, right?
[00:11:30] Rowan: Yes. Yes.
[00:11:32] Lara: We're taught both things at the same time. Therefore, I shouldn't think I'm too good at this, but I should want to be so good at this. And so like, you're constantly battling, am I good at this? I'm not good enough. Other people think I'm not good. I need them to think I'm good. I can't make it seem like I think I'm good.
Like there's such a like snarl of. Emotions and ways we're supposed to feel. And certainly, you know, it's like that whole comparison issue where we're always thinking we're not measuring up to something while we're trying to be everything. So if we talk about parenting for a minute, right, like I certainly felt like I.
Wasn't good enough as a parent in some ways, and really good as a parent in other ways. And then I'll have conversations with people and their perception of me as a parent and I'll be like, wow, you think something so different than I think, right? So as an example, I. Have never had like a ton of energy.
I have never been the parent who's like, I'm gonna sign my kids up for a million activities. We're gonna sign them up for hockey and we're gonna have them in soccer. And there's like, you have multiple kids and you're constantly driving people around to different activities and like, that's okay because that's what it means to be a parent.
And that's what it means to make sure that your children are having a good. Experience and I was like, I cannot, I used to joke when my kids were little, so I have three that each one could have one activity for one third of the year. Like I can handle one activity at a time.
[00:13:10] Rowan: I did the same. By the way, I just want you to know samesies.
Yeah. When you have that many children, you can't be like, yeah, you can all be in three different things or nobody sleeps or eats,
[00:13:21] Lara: but some people do. Some people do that. They spend their whole life driving kids around and feeling like that's what it means to be a good parent. And whether they are or not, they put on a happy face.
Like they love to do it I just didn't have that in me. However, once or twice a year we would go on a trip and I would very publicly post about it. I have a blog called Kids in the Capital, which I've had for 15 years now. And so activities that we did, I would always write about them because I had a blog about it.
And so people would see these things that I was doing, and then I had people come up to me and be like, I can't believe how much you do. I was like, you. Have two kids in competitive hockey. What are you talking about? Like I'm doing things every once in a while and then posting about it and you have somehow made that into I am doing stuff all of the time.
I wish I wasn't so lazy because I don't do anything for my kids. And I was like, holy cow, that is not what's happening at all. Like I. Do very little compared to you, but you see something and it feels like I should be doing that, and I see something and I think, oh, I should be doing that. I should be packing these like super fancy snacks when I go to the park for my kids instead of throwing them a bear paw.
so the whole like, I should be good at everything. I'm not good at everything if somebody is doing something that sounds good. I should be doing that regardless of what else I'm already doing. Like all of these things and how we're supposed to be like superheroes and do everything means that we're setting ourselves up as I think is designed by society to be honest, to not think we've done enough.
We've never done enough. We're never good enough.
It's deflating. And so whether we then step into like, I need to tell you about what I'm good at, so that I feel better about myself, or we just sit around feeling bad about ourselves. None of that is, Hey, look at what I'm doing well and how great that is. I'm doing okay.
[00:15:19] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. I think that.
Arrogance really comes out of that exact thing where people are taught. And we go to school, for example, and we're taught, you know, oh yeah, your grades are great. Oh, except science. Your science grade is not what's, what's wrong? Why? Why aren't you doing well inside? Oh, your, music grade. Mm. What's going on there?
Why is your music grade so low? Right? Like, so there's this. Expectation placed on us, like you said, where we have to be good at literally everything we do. We have to have everything figured out, and then we have to, I think, convince ourselves. And by convincing perhaps the people around us that we've made the right choices, that we've done the right things, that we are good enough, that we are successful enough, that we are happy enough you know, and you'll see this on social media you know, obviously a blog.
You are recording what is significant to the blog, but you see this all over social media. Go on Instagram, you go anywhere. And it's this curated spectacle of someone's life. The vacations they've taken, all of the wins, their nice dates, all of their nice pictures as a family or whatever that looks like to them.
Pictures of their dog, pictures of, something they just bought a car, a house, a boat, like whatever it might be, right? And you look at that and go, wow, that is a perfect life. Why is my life not like that? I have to somehow convince myself that I'm good enough and that my life is good enough and I have to do that too.
That being said, forgive me for going off on a rant here, but getting closer to the microphone because this is something I have been dealing with for an eternity it feels like, but especially since I came out as trans. There is this idea we need to talk about selfies for a minute, and I'm gonna explain why.
Because there's this idea as trans people now I'm gonna back that up. There are a lot of anti-trans people out there. We know that.
[00:17:22] Lara: Yeah.
[00:17:23] Rowan: And there are specifically a lot of stories told in those circles around trans people being so deeply unhappy. We post selfie after selfie, after selfie or talk about ourselves, incessantly or whatever, and they also frame it around.
They use the term narcissist a lot, which again, second rant, calling someone a narcissist is just, so overused. There are people with narcissistic personality disorder. There is also narcissism that shows up in. Pretty much everyone's personality to some degree or another because it is a sliding scale, But the amount of times that I have outright been accused just me, and I'm one trans person of being a narcissist by, you know, the definition of narcissistic personality disorder is. Hundreds of times, at least. At least, because I dare post pictures of myself where I feel I look good and I want to show people that I am happy and comfortable in my skin.
Now I do it sometimes 'cause I just like the way the picture looks and I'm like, this is a good picture. I wanna show people who've been following me my journey. Like, Hey, look at my facial hair that's growing in. Hey, I got a new haircut. Like whatever. A lot of times why I do it is because there are a whole bunch of people watching who have not come out yet who've not taken that step, who are scared.
And I'm an older trans person. I'm in my forties, and so I, being able to see that is very helpful for them. I just got a message yesterday from somebody on Instagram who was like, I want you to know that. I am hoping to start my transition next year. I'm not quite ready to come out yet, but I follow you because you gimme so much hope.
This happens all the time. But the idea for a lot of people is that I post these things because I am completely full of myself. What it really comes down to is. I feel really good these days and I love the way I look. not perfect. Could I wave a magic wand and change some things a hundred percent, but do I feel more confident and comfortable in my skin?
Absolutely. Why do you think we look at somebody posting pictures of themselves, and we think that is an arrogant, narcissistic person and not like, oh, hey, good for that guy. He looks good today. he's smiling, he is happy and enjoying his life. I'm happy for him, or I don't really care. I'm just going to scroll on and not comment some horrible thing on his picture.
[00:20:08] Lara: Yeah. I think some of the times it's because it's making them uncomfortable or it f eels like they're being called out. I would never do that. And I need to make myself feel good about the fact that I would never do that, instead of worrying that maybe there's a reason I'm too scared to do that. That's one way.
I mean, another one is like I know that you threw a big birthday party. Not that long ago.
[00:20:34] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:20:35] Lara: And I think that it could be like, okay, you just informed everybody that you did this big party, and then I didn't do a big party for somebody I love and now I feel badly. Should I have done that?
Oh, why do you have to go be bragging about how good you are at being able to do a party for somebody? And that is really not about you. That was entirely a me. Response. I didn't actually feel this way, but I've felt it about other things, right? Other things I've seen, right? Like people doing things again for their kids.
'cause I have a lot of stuff when it comes to parenting. Like I think I'm a really good parent in one way, and then in this way I, I'm worried that I didn't do enough. I didn't do enough. So if somebody did something big, like a big birthday party for their kids, and I was like, oh, how about I get you a dinner out?
I didn't buy a cake even because like , there was cake at the restaurant and I'm like, I love you. You know, I didn't go all out. Do I feel badly now? 'cause I see other people doing like the balloons on the door and like this whole thing, like a lead up for their birthday for weeks. And sometimes when I see people post things that seem really great, it feels like.
You're telling me I suck for not having done that too, and that is not what they're doing. That is an entirely a me response. But that's sometimes what it feels like. Right? So when you see people getting really angry about people doing things, that's what I wonder. I'm like, what are you so insecure about right now that makes it feel like you need to get angry at that person for feeling good about something?
[00:22:04] Rowan: Yeah, I think there's that for sure because I have felt that myself as well in various situations. I think the other thing is, you know, you want to talk narcissistic, and again, I'm not calling anyone a narcissist, but you wanna talk about being like really self-centered. There can be this idea of like, whoa.
I have no desire to share my life online like that. None. I'm perfectly happy not doing that. So if you are doing that, there must be something wrong with you because you don't think the way that I think, and you are not doing the things that I do. And could you go deeper and go, maybe I think that there's a problem with me.
Yeah. That could be the case sometimes, but I also think sometimes it's just like, well, this is the way you should be. This is the way I am, so why aren't you like that? And I get those comments a lot too. This sort of like bewilderment of like, well, why do you need to do that? what is broken inside of you?
I'm concerned that, by the way, folks is called Concern trolling. Don't do that. Don't hide behind concern if you're just using judgment. But that is a thing that people do where it's like, well, I need to know what's wrong with you. What's really going on? You must be so unhappy to be doing that all the time.
I can see the sadness in your eyes. Like, no, you can't. I felt on top of the world when I took that picture, my friend. There's no sadness in my eyes. This is joy, but you are seeing it. And that is the other thing is like the more that we can realize. All of us, myself included, the more we can realize that most of the issues that we have with other people, not all of the issues.
There's some serious issues, some real hurt and damage that people cause, but outside of that, most of the issues that we seem to have with other people. Are coming from ourselves. It is really a reflection of how we see ourselves, how we see the world, what our own experiences are, what our own hurts and traumas are, what all of it all comes back to this little person inside me.
Something happened to them at some point, and I am now reacting in this way because of that. Or I have lived a life like this. what you are doing is so outside of that life that I thought is like the normal life, right? That I can't relate to it and in fact find it threatening or disgusting in some way, but that has nothing to do with the other person.
You see, for example, there's, you know, cross-dressing, and there's cross-dressing. Men, men who, you know, gender non-conforming men who love to wear dresses. And every time I see that I'm like, that is so cool. I love your dress. Like I'm thinking to myself. Right? But you have other people who go.
That's so wrong. You're just trying to get attention by doing that. It's like, no. Maybe he's just genuinely happy to be wearing something he feels good in and we should just let him do that. It is never about the other person in that case, that is always about ourselves.
[00:25:04] Lara: Yeah. This whole thing opens up a bigger conversation about lots of things. 'cause there's so many people who think they're doing the right thing. They've been taught to do a thing, they're doing the right thing. If you are not doing that thing, like you're supposed to do this.
I wasn't allowed to do anything different. Why are you allowed to do something different? You shouldn't be. It's wrong, right? Like it's very black and white. I have been told, I know it's prescribed end of story, but I think knowing that. Practicing knowing that you are getting feedback from people that are saying like, it really helps me to see you.
I know that I've had the same thing with people who have come to me because I talk about my A DHD because I talk about my endometriosis, right? Like those are two big topics I've talked about online a lot, and the amount of private messages I've gotten from people, like people who are saying, I was afraid to get a hysterectomy.
Until you started talking about this, and now I'm booked in for one, that's a huge thing. Like you're saying to me that just because I talked about it, you suddenly were able to sort of wrap your head around it. Other people might be like, why are you talking about that? Nobody cares. Like, okay, well maybe you didn't care.
[00:26:22] Rowan: Yeah. Well, I think they care enough to say something. 'cause I get that a lot too. Like, nobody cares how you feel today. Nobody cares what you look like. Nobody cares that you're trans. Right. Or whatever it might be. And it's like, well, I don't know. I feel like you definitely cared enough to stop in to tell me how much you didn't care.
[00:26:41] Lara: Yeah. It's making you uncomfortable for some reason. And you might wanna look at that.
[00:26:45] Rowan: Yeah. that's a gift of, getting older, right? Is realizing how much of it is somebody else's issue.
[00:26:51] Lara: Mm-hmm. And being able to have these conversations, because I think that unless you are willing to sort of unpack it and look at it, you're gonna have some, like people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties who have never considered anything other than what they've always thought.
But I think that there is the alternative where we get to have conversations like this. This is why I want to do things like this podcast, because I think until we have these conversations, until people hear that there is the possibility of thinking differently until people think, oh, I never thought about it that way, then they're not going to think about it differently.
But if they're willing to say like, oh, what's a different point of view? What does that mean? I think that being able to talk about my A DHD without shame was really significant to some people. They're like, oh, you don't even feel bad about this. I'm like, not at all. I don't feel bad about it. There are a lot of things in my life I feel bad about.
but a diagnosis of A DHD was not one of them. And so if they see somebody talking about it without it. Being a problem like that helps them. Like I am not being like, let me tell you how amazing I am because I have a DHD. I'm just like talking about a thing. And again, it makes some people uncomfortable.
They say nobody cares, but they do. Like, they're uncomfortable. That's what's coming up. They're like, why are you talking about this? It's making me uncomfortable. Whether it's because, you know, talking about periods is supposed to make them feel gross or. They're supposed to feel bad about having a neurodivergence, whatever it is.
Normalizing things like talking about things that are different, makes people uncomfortable when they think they're not supposed to. When they think they're not allowed to, when they I've been taught this is wrong, so stop it.
[00:28:38] Rowan: Yeah, just again, it all comes down to insecurity, which again can breed arrogance.
Judgment and arrogance are definitely cousins. They tend to hang out together a lot. because in order to be arrogant, again, you have to also be judgmental because arrogance is about comparison. So if I have a certain body, for example, and I am arrogant about that body, that is because I am looking at everybody else's body and going.
Ha ha, suckers. You don't have my body because I'm better than you. I'm superior. Confidence also does not, ever mean that you think you are superior to other people. You might recognize your skills. You might recognize maybe your looks, you might recognize your success in some way and you might say, yes, I possess talents or abilities or whatever it is or something about being, genetics, whatever, right?
That have allowed me to stand tall in some ways. But the other thing about confidence is, and this is something I had to work at as well so in, 2020. I had, you know, people talk about getting canceled. I essentially got canceled, if you will, on the Bird app. Okay. And it was a very hostile time.
It was a hostile time for a lot of people. It was, you know, it was the pandemic. Everyone was stuck at home. Everybody was really stressed, people were laid off work. And I think a lot of people spent. Way too much time online. And during that time, some of my work, one of my books and who I am as a person and how I conduct myself in work you know, and the success that I had was all called into question, which I mean, can happen.
And that's fine as a public figure of sorts. I'm used to that. But it snowballed very quickly into this, horrific onslaught of personal attacks and just went on and on for days and days and days and days, and I almost didn't make it out of that alive. I ended up gonna the hospital and getting a P-T-S-D diagnosis.
So that was really not fun. What I learned from all that, I learned a lot of things, but one of the things that's very relevant to this is before that I was at. I would argue that , the top of my career, I had a number one bestselling book. it was a runaway success for the genre that it was. I had so many awards, honestly, that I had a hard time finding spots for them in my tiny little closet office.
I had so many speaking engagements and podcasts and all these things lined up that I had to say no to a bunch of them. I mean, I was at the top of my game and. Then suddenly I was not. All of that fell. All of it crashed and burned. It didn't really crash and burn my career ended up being fine.
Things ended up being fine, but at the time, the validation that I was getting out of all of those things, out of other people telling me that I was enough and other people. Picking me up and showing me that I was successful and giving me shiny plaques to put on my wall and that sort of thing.
All of those recognitions I realized, could very easily be stripped from me because, I mean, look what just happened. . I lost the confidence and the trust of all these people because all these rumors and ideas about me started to circulate.
That's when I realized that I was not confident in who I was in my career or as a person, because if I was confident, not that that wouldn't have hurt, I think that that would've hurt even the most confident person. The things that were said and done in that time were really, really awful, but it hit me extra hard.
Because I wouldn't say I was arrogant. I didn't feel arrogant in that space, but I would say I certainly didn't feel confident in that space. And all of that was validation. What people thought about me and everything else was all validation, and I realized that true confidence would be I lose everything and I still love myself.
I could have everything taken away from me, and I would still not think I was a terrible person. I might think, oh, I have some lessons to learn, or I made some mistakes, or the world was very unfair, or whatever, and this is hard and I'm sad, or I'm angry, but I still wouldn't hate myself.
And in that time I hated myself because other people hated me. They really seemed to hate me, and I really took that on. So confidence is a lifesaver because I think if I had more of it, I wouldn't have ended up so close to not being alive anymore.
[00:33:18] Lara: Yeah. And I do think confidence can be learned. Yes. I think some people are taught to be confident from the get go.
I think some people are taught to not be confident from the get go and trying to figure out how to build confidence when you've never had it is challenging. If we go back to our selfies for a minute, which I think was an exercise for me, I took selfies a fair amount for a while. And it was an exercise in feeling more confident in who I am and what I looked like in putting myself out there and taking up space.
All of those things. It was an exercise in that and I. Would ask people to take selfies with me. And some people would be like, oh no, I don't like selfies. I find selfies very vain. I find selfies, this and that. And I would have conversations with people and it was very fun when I could change their mind and then have them take a selfie with me because.
When I said, listen, this is my way of trying to love myself more. This is my way of believing that I deserve to take up space. And I really think you need to reconsider the idea that anybody who is trying to put themselves out there is just doing it because they think they're the best thing ever.
I can guarantee you that's not the case. Some people might just, I don't know, do that. I think most of them are doing it for a whole slew of reasons, but very few of them are doing it for the reason you've decided it means. And taking photos of myself helped me just be more comfortable with me, let alone love me more, just more comfortable with myself.
And when you state it that way. People are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I was like, I know. I didn't figure you had, because not a bad person. Like, let's just talk about what it means, because a lot of people will be like, oh, everybody's taking photos. The duck face was a big thing back then, I think.
I'm like, why are people doing this? I was like, well, how about we do it too? How about we do it too? And that's it. Like I just think it was a way for me to gain more confidence. I think we can practice. I think things get easier. I used to. never think that I could be on video or do podcasts, and now I feel quite good about it, but it took practice, it took me doing it.
And if we recognize that some of the things we see people doing are them just getting more comfortable with themselves, it's just them working on their confidence and that we wanna cheer them on for trying the things and doing the things and being themselves. Like that's something to cheer on, not be like, oh, why you doing that?
[00:35:54] Rowan: I think that the more that we recognize as well, if somebody is being arrogant, that usually that is coming from a place of deep insecurity.
[00:36:05] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:05] Rowan: It is much easier to just let that go. Right. Like I remember. Early on in the Facebook days when, you know, we would find our high school friends and we would all add each other.
There was this one girl I went to high school with and all she did on her Facebook was talk about her new car and her nice house and how good she looked in a bikini and her husband like it was really overtly arrogant and not just like, here's a nice picture, you know, or Here's a new car I bought today.
It was like, I'm doing so well that I can get this, like that was pretty much verbatim and I remember thinking about that and my first thought was, I feel like. A failure because I don't have all the things that she has at the same age. But then my next thought as I started to sit with it was, she must be really hurting inside.
And I think I knew that because I was playing my own arrogance game in a different way. It was never with money, but it was, you know, with other things. Or at least not money like that. 'cause I never had money like that. But, you know, home ownership and that sort of thing. I definitely did that, but I just thought to myself like, she's, really struggling inside right now, I think.
And so I never said anything. I never judged her for it. I just more felt sad for her that her life, probably her insides felt so empty that she had to. Try to feed that insecurity with other people's validation and envy. The more we can do that, the more we can see what's probably going on.
When somebody is doing that, the more we can be there for them if and when they inevitably. Realize that they're not happy and that they don't like themselves and start to build themselves up from scratch. As a person who did that, I'm very, very grateful that the people around me showed me as much grace as they did, because I'm a far better person today than I was before, in part because I had all that support.
[00:38:13] Lara: Yeah, and I think it's important to remember. None of us is perfect and like for the most part, again, I know this isn't true across the board, for the most part, people aren't trying to be bad people for the most part. We all have stuff that makes it hard to feel good all the time, and whether we really do feel good or we're pretending to feel good, like all of this is.
Works in progress and I think I want more people to feel confident and I think the way to get there is to practice owning what they're good at. to practice even noticing what's gone well. Like something I do as a coach is I often ask people to start by telling me something that's gone well. The amount of people who don't know how to do that.
Is really astounding to me, right? Like just like something that went well, something that you did that you're proud of, and they can do it for other people, but it's really hard for a lot of people to do it for themselves because I don't think we've been taught to do that. And so noticing what we're good at, again, I think confidence is something we look for and that we're taught to not have.
And so. It requires us to practice saying like, you know what? This is something I'm really good at, I'm really good at. And the one that I usually tell people I'm really good at is I'm really good at hearing more than what people say. So I can feel like I'm translating English to English, right? So two people are talking to each other, completely misunderstanding each other, and I'll be like, what this person is saying is this, and this person is saying this.
And they're both like, oh. Oh, okay. I'm really good at that. I confidently can tell you I am good at that, but it took practice by thinking of what I felt I was good at by starting to tell people what I thought I was good at. By saying it repeatedly, by owning it, it took time. And if you never allow yourself to go looking for what it is that you think you can say.
I can confidently tell you I'm good at you. Just don't allow yourself to see it. You can't start feeling confident if you pretend that nothing's going on.
[00:40:19] Rowan: Yeah, I'm really good at being good looking.
[00:40:22] Lara: Of course you are.
[00:40:24] Rowan: I kid. I kid, I kid, I kid. No, it is. Just had to throw that one out there.
[00:40:30] Lara: But I can tell you what I think you are very good at.
[00:40:33] Rowan: Ooh, I would love to hear it.
[00:40:35] Lara: Yeah, you're very good at telling stories that make people understand things that they didn't understand before. Like an easy, relatable read that makes people feel seen and heard. And I'll go back, , I'm sure I mentioned this on a previous episode, but the very first time that I.
Met you saw, you heard you speak, you talked about this whole in the grocery store buying bear paws and being judged by somebody. And I was like, I mentioned it earlier, right? I'm not packing the fancy snacks and so therefore, oh no, maybe I'm not good, right? And hearing a story where somebody's like, that's simply not true.
Made me feel, seen and heard, and the amount of times that I've seen you tell stories so that people understand things in a way that feels easy. Like I hope you feel confident in your ability to do that.
[00:41:22] Rowan: Thank you. I actually do. I recognize that in myself. I used to see it as a deficit though. So this is a lesson in confidence building.
I have mentioned this before, but I graduated high school at 38 because when I was a teenager I was moving around so much from shelter to friends, couch to spare bedroom to all these different places and I just didn't finish. And then, as I mentioned on this episode, I had a baby. I got pregnant at 19 and I dropped out of high school at that point.
'cause I had gone back to have this baby. So I went back at 38. I finished, and then I never went back to any kind of higher learning. And for a long time I thought to myself, Ugh, I'm not educated. I'm not an educated person. I was now entering this space of activism. My child had come out as trans.
I was learning a lot about that. I ended up learning about myself in the process there too. And then I don't know what my messaging really started to take off. I started, talking about the experience of being a parent, of a trans person, of being a partner to a trans person, and like what that all looked like.
And for whatever reason, that resonated really, really well with a lot of people outside of the L-G-B-T-Q community I had to take a look at that and realize that the reason was because I wasn't using a lot of big words. Put simply, I was putting it simply. I was just going, yeah, this is just me.
This is how I talk now. This is gonna be how I write. I'm going to just tell you what this is like in very relatable language. You do not have to attend a university course to understand the words I'm going to use. If I do use a term that is trickier, I will identify that.
Fairly quickly and explain it in simple terms. You don't have to do that work and we can get to the business of how do we treat human beings better. So yeah, I did learn that and once I figured out that it was not a problem, that I didn't go to school. It actually worked well.
'cause I would've gone into those circles that I would've gone into academia and I know I would've started using bigger and bigger words. And there's no problem with that. I use academic language, I learn with it all the time. But the way that I now. Share that information is in a way that I think is accessible.
So, yeah, we all have our strengths, right? It's so easy to look at what we haven't done and what we're not good at. And when somebody gives us a compliment or something to go, oh, well, you know, I mean, thanks, but then list off five other things that you don't feel good about to try and bring yourself back down.
Don't do that. Don't do that. First of all, learn to say thank you to everybody's compliments. When they compliment you, say thank you and smile. That's a really hard thing.
[00:44:24] Lara: It is a really hard say, and I'll say I had to work on that for a long time, and I admit that in the beginning my thank yous didn't sound particularly confident and be like, thank you.
Right? I'm practicing saying thank you. I feel wildly uncomfortable about it, but thank you. But it did get easier.
[00:44:42] Rowan: It does get easier. I know I had a friend who was very strong-willed and she's like, Rowan, when I give you a compliment. You're going to say thank you.
So she actually taught me to do it. I was a little scared of her. She's like, okay, alright, fine. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And then I just, but over time I was like, oh, thank you, thank you. You know, and I think like going to book signings and stuff too, and like hearing from person after person about what my work means.
You start to have to say, I mean, I don't always feel it. Maybe I'm having a bad day or something, but I still say thank you. But really what it comes down to is just. It's okay to feel good about things to be proud of. Things that you have accomplished, things that you like about yourself.
It's okay to say, I like my eyes. Sure. You had nothing to do with your eyes. That's all genetics, right? I mean, unless you got some Botox or something and you know, you do you, it is absolutely okay to like things about yourself and not apologize for it.
[00:45:42] Lara: It is. I think acknowledging it takes practice.
Acknowledging that there are steps to it, letting yourself start to consider it. All of those things are steps into confidence. Another thing that I sometimes say when somebody compliments me, and I don't fully believe it, is I receive that.
[00:46:03] Rowan: I love that.
[00:46:04] Lara: I'm not gonna
argue with you. But I do hear you. I receive it.
[00:46:08] Rowan: I receive that. I'm gonna try that sometime. That's, fantastic. This has been a really good conversation. I think we're both really passionate about this topic. We've both been on the other side of it and are working towards the more confident side of things.
I feel very confident now wrapping this up. What about you?
Me too. I think this was a really good episode and I hope people enjoy it and tell us so.
Yeah, tell us what you think. One thing that really helps us is we have a substack an unboxing substack. If you went and subscribed to that substack.
We would really appreciate it. You also get sort of some primary access to certain things. You can comment on stuff more. You can give us ideas. You get access to our newsletter. I mean, there's so many different ways to show up. It helps us continue to build this podcast, be able to do it all the time, be able to bring you our confident, more confident than we used to be, at least happy, happier than we used to be, at least selves.
[00:47:10]Lara: Absolutely. I love it. I think this is good.
