This episode is a milestone one - our twentieth! This little podcast we dreamed up last Spring has been a joy to create, and we so appreciate everyone who has subscribed and supported us along with all of you who’ve called it fancy things like “thought-provoking.”
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Today’s episode is about life in the online space. Why do people share online? What’s considered an overshare? Are chronic selfies a sign of a raging narcissist?
Both of us have been online since the 90s, so we have a lot of experience figuring out what we’re comfortable with, what we want to share, why we share it, and what we’ve done that no longer works for us (and there’s a lot of that!).
If you have any thoughts or anything to add - we’d love to hear in the comments!
Links
Transcript
(Transcripts are not edited for accuracy and may have some errors)
[00:00:00] Lara: For those who feel comfortable sharing their stories, there are people out there who are receiving those stories and suddenly feeling like somebody gets me, somebody is willing to talk about something I didn't understand or that scared me and I didn't even know I needed that.
But thank you. Hey there.
[00:00:43] Rowan: Welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.
[00:00:47] Lara: And I'm Lara.
[00:00:48] Rowan: And Lara. This is episode 20, number 20.
[00:00:53] Lara: Crazy Town.
[00:00:55] Rowan: I can't believe we've done 20 episodes.
[00:00:57] Lara: Yeah, but also I knew we would have lots to talk about.
[00:01:02] Rowan: I think what people don't know is that. We always set a time to record and then we spend 45 minutes to an hour just chatting before we actually record.
[00:01:14] Lara: Yeah. And we've had people we've recorded,as a guest and they're like, oh, I see why you do this. It's almost like therapy included with the podcast episode. And I agree there's a lot of that. Being able to just talk through things, share things, connect with people.
[00:01:30] Rowan: Yeah. And actually this ties into what we are talking about today because we often decide what we're going to talk about in that hour before we record.
We'll come up with a list of ideas and we text each other back and forth, like, oh, I just thought of this. And then, you know, Lara will add it to a list. And then I'll say, okay, what do you wanna talk about today? And she'll read off the list of things and then we'll pick one that just kind of resonates with us that day.
The idea that we have this whole chat session before we actually record is very similar to the topic that we had in mind, which is social media there are a lot of beliefs around the use of social media. So for example, if you are on social media, everything you're presenting is extremely curated.
It may be fake, you know, you may just be posting a lot of fake things. Or there's the concept of oversharing. You're sharing too much with the world. You're being too open, or the idea that. If you do put yourself out there, it is always because you're very self-centered and perhaps, you know, narcissistic.
And this goes back to what I was talking about a minute ago where we have this, , maybe half hour to hour long conversation before we record this podcast because not everything we say to each other privately is going to go out to the public.
However, everything that we present to the public is still, in my opinion, very authentic. We just don't share everything, right?
[00:03:01] Lara: Mm-hmm. And. I think that almost becomes a double edged sword. So there people are like, why don't you share everything? And then other people like. You share too much, like there's no winning in some ways, but I think that understanding that being on social media can be a really good way to connect with people, to build community, to find people who understand who you are, to feel understood, and you can do that without sacrificing privacy, without sacrificing.
everything that is quote unquote real in the world, which can't possibly be found online. And finding that balance is something that I think you and I have been doing for a long time. Like we have been online for longer than most people I know. I've been online. For a really long time, and I often joke like before most people knew the internet existed, I was chatting with people online.
[00:04:02] Rowan: Yeah. Well, I think we're the first generation that, you know, this was introduced to us at a young enough age that we could adopt it into our daily lives. So before the internet, there were dialup modems that connected to other people's dialup modems, and you would have bulletin board systems or BBSs.
My partner and I ran one of those back in the day when I was a teenager.
[00:04:32] Lara: What was it called?
[00:04:33] Rowan: It was called Cyber Pigs. Not for any pervy reasons. I can't remember why we called it that. We were just young and came up with like, we thought it was like an edgy name or something.
I don't know. I can't remember now. Anyway, it was actually quite popular and people would dial up from all over to join our BBS. We had people calling from the states, there were long distance charges, long distance charges apply, right? Like that was a thing.
But, so we did that and then we opened another one. That one was called. Mary Lou's Complex and again. Ask me why? I don't know. It just sounded cool. It was like the grunge era, doesn't that sound like a band name or something?
[00:05:11] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:12] Rowan: Yeah. And then we started dialing up into, I think it was, in Ottawa, Carleton University's, internet, I can't remember what it was called, but it was like, that's where you could go out onto the web.
So. I have been using the internet for a very long time, for a multitude of reasons, and I'm not alone, but we weren't given any courses on how to behave online social media was invented in our era. We had MySpace, then we had Facebook, and then went on from there.
We had to learn what the rules are. We had to make the rules for that. Right.
[00:05:45] Lara: Yeah. I also spent a lot of time on BBSs. I did not have my own. but in the nineties I did some sketch things with, you know, talking to people online, meeting people from online enough that I knew.
That some things are not a good thing to do and some things are okay to do, and so certainly I've been learning for a long time what it is that feels correct for me when I'm putting myself into online spaces,
[00:06:15] Rowan: And what does work for you? What, have you garnered in your, gosh, how long have we been online now?
Over like what, 30 years? Longer than 30 years, so, wow, wow, wow. But what is it that you have figured out about your self and where that line is for you between being present online and oversharing?
[00:06:38] Lara: So I share a lot about myself. So the biggest thing that I think I have decided for myself is that if it's about me and I in any given moment, feel comfortable talking about it.
Then it's okay. But if it involves other people, if it brings other people into the story less so when my kids were little, I started a blog and I would talk about my kids online all the time in the context of we did this craft, we went to this museum. Right? So it wasn't like, let's talk about their behavior.
But as they've gotten older, once they, hit even prepubescent, like I stopped talking about them as much, right? So, because now I really wanna respect anything that they have to say. So for me, even posting photos online, I still do have them, but I always ask their permission first, right? Like, that's a lot of how I feel about it.
I know what I'm okay with. Yes or no. Do I feel comfortable putting that out into the world and always remembering. If I'm with other people, if they're in a story, I need to be aware of that and make sure they're okay with it before I post anything.
[00:07:49] Rowan: I'm very mindful of that too, and I, I wasn't always, I was careful with my kids.
I also had a parenting blog. And I was at home with the kids, so I talked about the kids a lot when they were very, very young. I posted pictures and I think that that is true of a lot of parents of our age. We weren't really considering the ramifications yet, most of us of posting.
Pictures of our young children and the fact that those would get archived and they would stay there forever. And that's their privacy. So I've learned now, and I learned a good while ago not to do that. I did write a book and a blog about my child being trans. That was really because my child wanted me to do that, my child, very much, because when they came out as trans, when they figured out they were trans before they even came out.
They couldn't find any really happy or, supportive stories from families where these kids were able to come out and live a good life. And they really wanted, since I already had the platform for us to be that. But we also had a lot of talks about privacy and about how you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
So once you are out there, you're out there and it's there forever I think even now I would do things a little differently than I did back then. So we, we learn. We learn and we grow. But I'm really big about. Not posting any photos of them anymore, not really talking about them much anymore, because I want them to have their lives.
I also have a fairly large platform, and not everybody who follows me as a trans. Activist is somebody who's a fan, if you will.
So I really want to protect the people around me. Everything that I do post, no matter who it is, whether it's a friend, whether it's my partner, whether it's you know, anybody, I always ask their permission for that reason too, because I don't want that photo.
To get picked up and posted in the depths of the internet that you and I don't go to where I know posts like that are, and pictures like that are shared and have people go, oh, who is that person? We should figure out who they are and, oh, what's that building? I wonder if that's close to one of their homes.
And these are the things that happen, right, that doxing does happen. So it is a matter of being very. Mindful, but I do it for security reasons as well.
[00:10:22] Lara: Yeah. So when there's risk like that, it certainly brings up the idea of why do you share things at all.
and I think that's part of what we definitely wanted to cover today because I think as much as a lot of people think there's a dark side, why are you sharing all this stuff, we shouldn't be online. so much or sharing photos means that you weren't present in the moment. Like there's so many things that people believe about what it. Means to be somebody who shares a lot of your life online. Oh, you're just one of those influencers who's trying to capitalize on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It's a lot of stuff. So what is the benefit? Like why? I mean, I know why I do it, and I think we both are gonna connect on some of this, but like, what's the bright side? What's the good side? Why is it anything more than just you like to talk about yourself a lot, huh?
[00:11:11] Rowan: So right before I hopped on our Zoom call, I got a message request on Instagram, and yesterday I had shared that at the end of this month, right now, this month being September, I will be getting top surgery, which is a gender affirming surgery where my breasts will be removed. think of a mastectomy, and you know, sort of contoured and shaped to look and feel more like the chest. I think that I should have as a trans man and. I got a lot of really wonderful messages and I got a lot of really horrible messages, but I did get this one message from somebody, who said,
I just wanna thank you for being
so open about your transition.
It gives me hope that I can have a life as a trans person too, because this person is younger and. Right now, does not have access to the care that I have and does not live in a safe area and feels very hopeless much of the time. So for them to see that you can grow older as a trans person, I just turned 49.
And that you can be loved and that you can love, and that you can have a career, and that you can follow your dreams, and that you can get access to care and that all those things can happen even if it takes a little while. That is one of the things that keeps them going. And if that were the only message I receive like that, I mean, I would still matter very much, but it's not, I hear from people almost every day.
That my presence online, the work that I do, just sort of being visible helps them either learn how to be kinder to trans people and other people who are not like them. Helps them learn what misinformation looks like so they hear all these awful things about trans people. Then they see a trans person just out there living, smiling, being happy, celebrating his birthday, whatever's going on.
And that flies in the face of these lies that they're being told about us. or it helps people figure themselves out. Or to see that if they have figured themselves out and they feel a lot like me to see that maybe there is some more hope for them out there and that there's a life waiting for them.
So this is why I do it, and I get a lot of pushback for it. I get a disgusting amount of hate. And, I'd like to say I'm used to it. I don't think you ever get used to getting that kind of hate, but I have grown accustomed to knowing it's going to show up because whenever you push the narrative forward, whenever you make people uncomfortable, there is a pushback, but I don't do it.
because I'm vain, I don't do it because I'm a narcissist. I get accused of those things all the time. It actually makes me very uncomfortable to be in the spotlight. Not so uncomfortable that I won't do it, but I certainly don't get off on it. do it because I know it's helping and my entire. Job on this earth, as far as I'm concerned, is just to leave the world a little better than when I entered it in some way.
In some way. That I can do that and this is one of the ways I can do that. So that is the reason why I do it.
[00:14:41] Lara: , And certainly your work over the last many years is a lot of how I learned about things I just didn't know about. Right. So there's a lot we don't know because we don't know it Simply until we have an opportunity to learn about it, we don't know it.
That is one of those statements I make That sounds really obvious when I say it, but if you don't think, well, I just didn't know that before. but I'm really glad I know it now. Then being able to learn from people who are willing to share their stories is really important.
Whether it's because I am learning to understand. People I didn't really understand at all, whether it's learning enough to help me feel like I understand myself better. There's so many parts to that. And without stories, without people who are willing and comfortable, because not everybody is comfortable.
Like , I don't think, I'm pretty sure you don't think. Everybody needs to go online and share all their stories, like that's not what we're saying. But for those who feel comfortable sharing their stories, there are people out there who are receiving those stories and suddenly feeling like somebody gets me, somebody is willing to talk about something I didn't understand or that scared me and I didn't even know I needed that.
But thank you.
[00:16:05] Rowan: Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I have
learned more from people's stories than I have learned from pretty much anything else. And I think that's because somebody's personal anecdote, somebody's personal journey doesn't just educate, but it also opens up those empathy centers in the brain. It gives us a reason to want to learn the thing.
So if some random person just posted a bunch of facts about trans people, and I hate to go back to trans people over and over, but we are the topic of a lot of, political debate right now and medical debate and everything else. I mean, we've just been scapegoated over and over, by a number of political parties and organizations, and so because I live it, I think it's important to speak to what I know.
I think that if somebody were just to provide these facts about trans people. Why would you even wanna read them? If you think you already understand trans people, you think you already understand that we're, you know, I get called mentally ill a lot. I am in fact mentally ill by the way, but I have C-P-T-S-D and anxiety being trans is not a mental illness.
but, you know, I get called mentally ill and that I need, I need to go get help and not the type of help I'm getting right now. And there's all these ideas about us. So what if you already. Think that you know everything. Why would you want to read a bunch of facts that fly in the face, the facts you think you already know, but hearing somebody's story and.
And seeing their emotion as they're telling it. If you're watching a video or you know, feeling those words that can tap into the empathy center and empathy gives us a reason to want to do the work, to want to learn. That's why. Stories are so, so powerful. That's why in a lot of indigenous cultures storytelling is such an important learning tool.
It's because it gives that emotional base to want to learn the thing.
[00:18:16] Lara: Yeah. So there's the empathy part and then there's the connection part. And I think it can be true for the same person. Right? And they can get both. But I think that. The stories that I tell and mine are not as about being transgender because I'm not, you know, that's not the topic I talk about, but I talk about a lot of things like my ADHD, like my endometriosis, right?
So being, somebody who has a different brain, being somebody who's had a lot of pain, being somebody who had to have a hysterectomy in her early forties, like these are all things that personally happened to me. And that I feel comfortable sharing. So I have had people tell me, I'm so brave for talking about things like my ADHD or my endometriosis, and what I think is it didn't require any bravery.
For whatever reason, those things felt easy to talk about. Those things, talking about them, if anything. Released me from shame, not made me feel shameful. There are other things, and this goes back to like I don't share everything about myself online, that it would require a ton of bravery or something to talk about online.
Like I don't feel comfortable. It would not be easy. I don't want to, and therefore I don't. Right. But those ones. Feel like, yeah, I think it's beneficial for people to understand this more. So why don't I talk about it? Why don't I share it? And whether that means somebody else understands a little bit more about their partner or their kid, their parent, and they have more empathy for them, or whether they're like, huh, I wonder if maybe I also insert whatever I was talking about.
And it's because until somebody suggests that it's something that might be true. You might never have thought about it. And so if somebody's telling a story you think is interesting, and whether you're just like, I think this is interesting, and then it brings out like, oh, I just have so much more understanding for other people, or, huh, I have a little more understanding for myself.
That is why I share stories online. I'm not out there being like, you know, I just need everybody to know everything about me. , that's not a thing. I truly hope that when I share stories, it helps other people feel better in their own skin or in their own life, and that's why I do it.
[00:20:48] Rowan: The nice thing about the internet is that it's created this
ability to find other people like you much more easily. you know, I live in a big city today. I live in Toronto, and guaranteed I can find a handful of people that I would be able to relate to and talk to about certain things, and they would be interested in those things too.
But in smaller places, small towns and, , for very, very particular things. I don't know, rare genetic disorders, that sort of thing. It has been such a, godsend, if you will, for a lot of people to be able to put something out there and have someone else go, Hey, yeah, me too. I also feel this way.
I also have this, I also struggle with this. I also wanna learn more about this, and we create these little communities as a result. I think that is such a gift to be able to have that. I don't pretend that anything that I. Share online is a hundred percent original in that I'm certainly not the only trans person.
I'm certainly not the only trans man. I'm certainly not the only trans man in my late forties. , I mean, I think there are a lot of people doing what I do, but there are also a lot of people. So, you know, we all have our little pockets where we reach other humans. And yes, like you said, it's all about connection.
Everything. Even this podcast is about connection.
[00:22:18] Lara: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Rowan: Like , why are we doing this? We're not living high on the hog from this - is that even a saying, is high on the hog a saying?
[00:22:25] Lara: I think it is, but one of the things about me is I use idioms wrong all the time. So like, we're not gonna...
[00:22:33] Rowan: I think high on the hog means that you're making a lot of money off of something, which we most, certainly are not. No, this is a labor of love, like 100% a labor of love. but I think what keeps us going on this podcast is the exact same thing that keeps me going online is getting those people saying, thank you so much.
That episode meant a lot to me. what you said here stuck with me all day and I really thought about it. Or, you know, , whatever it might be. I think we're such a lonely society. They keep talking about how we're so lonely right now, and I can see that. I can see that a lot of people feel very lonely and disconnected.
[00:23:18] Lara: And shameful.
[00:23:19] Rowan: So, connection and the ability to share in experiences together brings us closer.
[00:23:28] Lara: Yeah, because
people do sit alone at home feeling like they're the only ones struggling, suffering, feeling bad about themselves. Everybody else has it all together, and I think that really a lot of this is to be seen, to be understood, to learn from other people, and to not think we're the only ones who are struggling.
I think that there's so many. Different positives. I know that for myself, I have learned from people that without the online connection and the people who were willing to share before me, I wouldn't know as much as I know in order for me to be able to start sharing it with other people. a quick example is that when I first got my endometriosis diagnosis, which is when, the tissue that you find inside of the uterus is found outside of the uterus, can cause a lot of pain and a lot of people don't realize it can be.
As far as up in your brain and down your legs, like it is quite significant, and a lot of people don't really a lot about it. When I first got my diagnosis, one of the first things I did is I went on my personal Facebook and I said, anybody who knows about endometriosis, can you tell me stuff?
And I got a lot of answers. So first of all. I found out just how many people I knew had endometriosis , and I didn't know that until that moment. Secondly, I found resources I would not have found, I don't think, if I hadn't asked, if I hadn't found those resources, I don't think I would've made the medical decisions I did, which I believe are what meant that I got the best care.
So. It was really important that I asked online. It was really important that people were willing to share with me. It was really important that I found the resources, I found from the people who were willing to share, and that I believe is what helped me get better as fast as I did.
[00:25:24] Rowan: Wow, that's amazing.
you hear so many stories like that too. So many stories of people. Putting something out there that maybe isn't a hundred percent comfortable for them either. And hearing from other people and going, oh yeah, that happened to me and here's what I did. Or, I'm going through that too. If you need to talk to somebody and suddenly you have a whole community behind you.
So there are so many reasons why people share bits of their lives online. I think there's another side to it. I do think there can be oversharing.
[00:25:54] Lara: Yeah.
[00:25:55] Rowan: and I think that that line is different for everyone, but generally when we overshare, we kind of feel like we've overshared. I think that handful of times where I have crossed a line where it hasn't just let me feel a little vulnerable because I shared something that maybe was a bit tough for me, but maybe was.
Something I posted out of frustration that I wouldn't normally say or whatever it might be. I have very quickly been able to go back to that and go, Ooh, should I have said that? Maybe I should delete that, or maybe I should edit that, or whatever it might be. So I do think that can happen. An example for me, I've seen.
I don't know if they're staged or not, but like on TikTok, I've seen people recording arguments with their partners just because it, at least to me, so that they can get. Commenters on their side to be like, oh, she shouldn't have done that, or he shouldn't be saying that, and I'm not talking about they're recording abusive things.
I'm talking about they're confronting their partner on something and filming it for the whole world. And I don't know if that is at all the same thing that we're talking about in terms of demonstrating living with a condition or asking people for help or something, that seems like a different thing entirely.
[00:27:19] Lara: Definitely. And I think that comes back to the whole, we wanna be respectful of other people. Like a lot of the stuff that I think can be too much is when you are disclosing or
When you are bringing in other people telling their stories or trying to be like, I wanna say that they're wrong, or I wanna mock them, or wow, look at the, car accident, gawking at it. That's the kind of stuff I don't think we need to share online.
But everything else, if it's a personal story and they wanna share it. It's okay if you are not interested. So that comes back to like, nobody cares because there are all kinds of people who like to tell you, nobody cares. just because you don't care doesn't mean somebody else doesn't care. And if you don't care, pass on by, .
[00:28:07] Rowan: I've never understood the point of that. Like so again yesterday talking about getting top surgery. I had a handful of people. Of course, this always happens. Comment on my going viral post about it on threads going, nobody cares . Who are you anyway? And why should I care? I was like, you cared enough to stop what you were doing.
Go into the comment section and leave a comment, which actually tells me you do care. but I actually don't care if you don't care, because that just means that this post out of billions probably of posts that are out there in the world isn't for you. It's for a select group of people where, where they find that they get something out of it.
So I don't actually mind if somebody doesn't care. I really do question the motives behind writing, stuff like that, because that happens all the time. Now, some of that's going to be bots, like definitely there are engagement bots, rage farming bots. Those things we know exist and I have encountered my fair share.
But some of them really seem like genuine people. Who will just stop what they're doing to question why you're even sharing that in the first place because they personally don't care. But that also goes back to this idea that I've brought up on the podcast before where what people think of what you are sharing.
Has a lot more to do with them than it does you, unless you're posting something that's extremely harmful and offensive and people are calling you on it most of the time. Everybody's comment, good, bad, happy, angry, whatever is coming from their own biases, their own life experiences, how they are interpreting what you are putting out into the world.
They're putting their own lens on it. So when I post a selfie, for example, inevitably somebody will say, Ugh, you're such a narcissist, or something along those lines, right? And it's like. Do you really think that everybody who posts a picture of themselves is a narcissist? Like what does that say about you?
Because a lot of times I see people posting pictures of themselves and I think, I love that you felt really good in this picture and you wanted to share it with the world. I think that's amazing and I wish everybody had that kind of confidence. I think that kind of confidence can build up your life in such a big way.
So that's where I'm coming from. Right. So I think that really needs to be stated. So if you do put something personal out there in the world because you're trying to help other people, you want to connect with other people, you're trying to get help for it, whatever it is, and you get comments like that, please, please, please remember that has everything to do with the person commenting and nothing to do with you.
[00:31:06] Lara: And if you have thought. Why are they sharing that? You may not have gone out of your way to tell the person you didn't care, but if you ever wondered why are they sharing that again, know that that probably just isn't for you, or it's making you a little uncomfortable and you can be curious about why.
[00:31:26] Rowan: Being curious about being uncomfortable is so hard for a lot of us. It's something that I've been diving into quite a bit with my own anxiety issues where I'm like, I'm really anxious right now. You know what? I'm gonna actually sit with that anxiety for a little bit. I'm not gonna try and push it away.
I tell myself I'm being silly. No, no, no. I'm gonna bring it. I'm gonna invite it in. And I try to do the same thing when I am uncomfortable. When somebody posts something, shares something that just, ooh in the gut, I just don't feel good about it. It just makes me kind of eww, a lot of times it is. Well, every time, pretty much, it has everything to do with me because maybe I wouldn't share something like that.
Maybe I would be worried that I would get judged if I said that, or whatever it might be. Or maybe that experience is so outside of my own experience that I can't imagine it happening, and I'm upset about something in it. So I really like to sit with that. I like that. Be curious.
Curiosity can do so much.
[00:32:31] Lara: Yeah.
The other thing I think that can come up for people is if you feel some kind of shame, I would never share that it makes you uncomfortable that somebody else felt comfortable with it, that somebody's talked about it without it being shameful. And so that's another thing to just be curious about.
[00:32:50] Rowan: Yeah. And my goodness, if you are able to be curious about it and possibly work on releasing some of that shame, even if you don't share it yourself, but you're able to recognize that you have shame inside, and let some of that go. Whew. Game changer. Game changer.
[00:33:08] Lara: Yeah. So as much as a lot of what I share is about helping other people feel seen, I also wanna say I have gotten so much out of it because people tell me that they feel seen, and that just means that I'm meeting more people who relate to me, who that makes me feel even more like I've found people who I belong with.
Right? So. I certainly am not saying that I do this for no personal gain of my own, like, it feels good to help and to connect and to find people, but I also don't just do it because I like talking about myself all the time.
[00:33:44] Rowan: Exactly, exactly. Oh, this has been a really good conversation. I like to explore.
How we've changed as people over the years, and also how our use of the internet and social media has changed because things are evolving so quickly. I remember a time when you couldn't even watch a video online, and now a lot of the internet is just going straight to video. We're talking a lot about how social media posts and the art of writing a post.
Is being moved largely to videos now. I don't know how I feel about that as a writer because I do love to write,
[00:34:23] Lara: But we're also
podcasting right now, which is another version of that.
[00:34:27] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's a good point.
It's all communication really. But I want people to.
Be curious using your words here, Lara. I want people to be curious about sharing online and why they do it or don't do it, and how they feel around other people doing it or not doing it.
[00:34:49] Lara: There is a lot to be curious about and that is why we keep doing this podcast because we are curious about so many things, and I love that these topics keep coming to us from either listeners who mention new things, conversations we have with each other or with guests.
Like there's just so much to be curious about and to unpack and to. Ask ourselves if change can happen to make us all feel just a little bit better in our own skin, which I think is Rowan, you and I, what we most want people to do is to feel okay in their own skin.
[00:35:25] Rowan: It's a game
changer. Thank you so much for joining us today.
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[00:35:47]Lara: Thank you.
