You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.
In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Devon Kuntzman, an ICF-certified coach and author of the new book Transforming Toddlerhood.
We cover why toddlers are so misunderstood, and how to work with our toddlers by better understanding their needs and development. Tune in to learn better ways to work through car seat struggles, diaper changes, tooth brushing, throwing things, and more!
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We talk about:
* 7:10 Why do toddlers have such a bad reputation?!
* 10:00 Contractionary needs of toddlers
* 11:00 What hard toddler behaviours are totally normal?
* 13:00 Nuance around “limit setting” and power struggles
* 19:30 Having unrealistic expectations for our toddlers
* 24:00 Understanding crying
* 29:00 Toddlers need for movement and bodily autonomy
* 30:00 Car seat struggles
* 31:15 Refusing diaper changes
* 32:00 Tooth brushing
* 35:00 Throwing things
* 38:00 The problems with Time Outs
Resources mentioned in this episode:
* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
* The Peaceful Parenting Membership
xx Sarah and Corey
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Interview transcript:
Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Devon Kuntzman, who is an expert on all things toddler. We discussed why toddlers get a bad rap—why they can be really challenging—and what’s going on with them developmentally. Devon has so much insight into how to understand your toddler better, and therefore how to make life with them easier by knowing how to support them.
We also talked about mysterious toddler behavior, and I asked her the questions I get most from you—what to do in tricky situations like car seats, teeth brushing, diapers, and more. You are going to finish this episode with a deeper understanding of your toddler and a deeper appreciation of these wondrous and sometimes challenging little beings.
Even if you don’t have a toddler anymore, you might find it interesting—as I did—to understand in hindsight exactly why they acted the way they did. And if you don’t have a toddler anymore but you do know someone with a toddler—that’s ages one through four—send this podcast on over to them. I’m sure they’re going to find it really, really helpful. Devon is just wonderful.
Okay, let’s meet Devon.
Sarah: Hey Devon, welcome to the podcast.
Devon: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Sarah: Me too. I’m so excited to talk about your new book that’s coming out. But before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Devon: Yes. So, I am Devon Kuntzman, and I’m an ICF certified coach, toddler expert, and the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood. I’m also a mama to a toddler and now an author with a book coming out October 21st called Transforming Toddlerhood as well.
I really started Transforming Toddlerhood in 2018 to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible. Yes, toddlerhood is very, very challenging developmentally for so many reasons, but it’s also a critical developmental period. If we just go into it white-knuckling it, bracing ourselves for the worst, we actually start to miss the magic of this developmental period and the opportunity to set our kids up for success in the long run.
The first five years of life set the foundation for brain development and social-emotional development for years to come.
Sarah: I love that. And actually, I love the toddler stage. I know a lot of people find it really challenging, and I can see why, but also, as you said, it is really magical. They’re such interesting little creatures, and I just love that stage.
So, your book is coming out October 21st, and we would encourage anyone listening to pre-order it. I was so excited to read your book because, when I was reading it, I was thinking, “You know what this is? It’s like a perfect peaceful parenting primer, except everything is focused on this age group.”
There are a lot of great peaceful parenting books out there, but they don’t focus on this age group. And this age group is so specific. I don’t know if that’s what you were intending to write when you wrote it. If you weren’t intending to, I think that’s what you did.
Devon: Yes. The reason I wrote this book is because we have so many parenting books out there—amazing books that talk about peaceful parenting, respectful parenting, and all of these things. But none of them are truly tailored to the toddler years.
At the same time, I have parents DMing me every day asking me so many different questions, and I can see the desperation of these parents. They’re searching on Instagram, they’re Googling, they’re trying to find the answers to these very real, challenging problems in their lives. And there wasn’t just one place to go to get all of these answers.
That’s why I wrote Transforming Toddlerhood. It’s an all-in-one, comprehensive, easy-to-read guide that truly covers just about every challenge you might have throughout toddlerhood. Whether it’s healthy, developmentally appropriate discipline, being on a different page from your parenting partner, your child whining, struggling with parental preference, or introducing a new sibling—I really cover everything in this book.
I wanted parents to have a place they could go to get quick answers that were trusted, so they didn’t have to search everywhere for them.
Sarah: Yeah, you absolutely did it. You succeeded at your goal. I get lots of questions about toddlers too—in my coaching and in my communities—and every single one of the questions that I get was in the book. That was great.
So, I encourage people to go out and get it. I’m actually going to order a copy for my husband’s cousin and his wife. They have a little girl who’s about 15 or 16 months now, so it’ll be perfect for them.
Devon: Perfect.
Sarah: So, toddlers—as you mentioned before—have a bad rap, right? You know, the “terrible twos,” the “horrible threes,” or whatever people call them. Why do you think that is? And maybe tell us a little bit about what’s going on developmentally. I think those two answers are probably connected.
Devon: I am so excited to answer this question, because this is a question I always ask everyone who comes on my annual summit. And I’m so excited to get to answer it myself.
I really feel that toddlerhood is so challenging for parents because it’s the first time your child is realizing that they’re a separate entity from you. And at the same time, you’re realizing your child is a separate entity from you as well.
The whole point of toddlerhood is for your child to become their own separate individual. And the way they do that is through behaviors that delineate a line between your toddler and yourself. They’re going to say “no.” They’re going to push back. They’re going to have their own agenda.
We start seeing this even as early as nine months old, with a child who doesn’t want to get their diaper changed. Or you have a 12-month-old—you ask them to come over, they laugh and run the other direction. Or you have a 14-month-old who thinks you’re moving too slowly, or doesn’t like what you’re doing, and then they hit you on the head.
It’s really the first time we move out of a purely caregiving role into what I like to call a really active parenting role, where we have to decide how we’re going to respond to these behaviors.
I think the bigger challenge is that we’re looking at these behaviors through a logical lens with fully mature brains. So, we label these behaviors as bad or wrong. But really, all the behaviors that drive us crazy are developmentally appropriate behaviors for toddlers.
Because of that mismatch—between our expectations of what we think is typical and what our toddlers are actually doing—it creates a lot of frustration. It creates fear spiraling: “Are they always going to be this way? Is my child going to grow up to be a bully?” X, Y, Z. All of that makes parenting this age group really, really challenging.
Sarah: Yeah, I was just talking to someone this morning who has a 2-year-old and a new baby—which, of course, as you know, exacerbates the challenges of toddlers when you’re adding to your family.
I have noticed anecdotally that people tend to think two or three are the hardest years, and it almost always comes back to when they had their next child. If they had them two years apart, they found two harder. If they had them three years apart, they found three harder.
This mom was just telling me about some struggles, and I said, “Yeah, your daughter is at that stage where she has her own ideas about things she would like to do or have. And it’s combined with a lack of logic, perspective, and brain development.” It’s like a perfect storm: “I know what I want, but I don’t have any experience in life or brain development to be able to express it in a different way.”
Devon: Yes, exactly. And another challenge that’s really happening in toddlerhood—which comes through in their behavior—is this idea of contradictory needs.
As I was saying, your toddler is trying to become their own person. They want to be independent. They’re developmentally driven to have a sense of control, feel capable, and exert their will. But at the same time, they’re highly reliant on the adults in their life to meet their social and physical needs.
So even though these developmental needs are so strong, they still need you—that safe and secure base—to help meet their emotional and physical needs. Toddlers are constantly trying to balance these opposing needs, and that really comes out in contradictory, challenging behavior that can drive us crazy.
Sarah: Yeah, I love that. I remember that so well—that “I want to do it by myself. No, I want you to do it for me.” The contradictory needs. That’s such a beautiful way to put it.
Devon: Yeah.
Sarah: What is something you hear all the time that you find yourself saying, “Oh, that’s totally normal for toddlers”? What’s something parents don’t know is normal, but you find yourself reassuring them that it is?
Devon: Yes. Basically, the behaviors we as adults really don’t like, that we think are inappropriate. Yes, in our logical, fully mature adult brains, hitting, biting, throwing, kicking, screaming, crying—all of these things—feel wrong.
But if you think about it, babies’ only way of communicating is to cry. Then, as toddlers start to grow, they go through a lot of physical development. They start communicating through their behaviors.
For example, if you have a toddler throwing food from their high chair at 15 or 18 months old, they might be experimenting with cause and effect: “If I drop this food, what happens? Does the dog pick it up? How do my parents respond?” They’re experimenting and exploring, which is very appropriate.
Or take hitting and biting. Toddlers, especially one- and two-year-olds, cannot say, “I don’t like this. I’m feeling frustrated.” So instead, they hit you or bite you.
I just want parents to know: behavior is not good or bad. We have to step away from that dichotomous lens. Behavior is communication. Once we understand that, we can ask: “What skill does my child need to learn to be successful here?” instead of “What punishment do I need to give to make them listen or to teach them a lesson?”
Sarah: Yes—or not only, “What skill?” but also, “What support does my child need to meet my expectation?” Right? Because sometimes the skill’s not going to come for a long time with a toddler. But the support is something you can give them.
Devon: I love that. This comes up a lot—the idea of “My toddler’s not listening to me.” We set the limit, and then we expect our toddlers to just fall in line, follow through, and listen.
But the truth is, we need to ask: “What support does my toddler need to meet this limit I’m setting?” We often think saying the limit is the end of our job, but it’s actually the beginning.
Setting the limit is step one. Then we have to help our kids follow through on that limit—especially the younger they are or the more unmet needs they have in that moment. If they’re tired, hungry, overstimulated—then they’re going to need even more help to follow through.
Sarah: Yes. And I’m going to jump ahead in my list of questions. I was going to ask you about power struggles later, but I want to ask now since you just mentioned limits.
I find parents sometimes get too hung up on limits—not that limits aren’t important, because they are—but they often get too attached to their own sense of what the limit should be.
I love that when you were writing about power struggles, you suggested starting with the question: “What’s the goal here?” I’d love for you to talk about power struggles and limits through that lens. Because, as I mentioned this morning to a parent of a 2-year-old, there’s so much a 2-year-old has no control over in their life. We want to think about how we can be flexible about the rest.
So maybe just talk about your lens of power struggles a little bit, starting with that “What’s the goal here?” I love that.
Devon: Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this subject.
When we ask ourselves, “What’s the goal here?” the main thing to consider is: are we trying to win? Because if you’re battling your toddler to win, then you’ve probably lost sight of the bigger picture—which is: How do you want to show up as a parent? What relationship are you trying to create? What support are you trying to give your child? What skills do they need to learn?
When we get caught up in trying to win, we’re in our stress response. The more committed we get to winning, the more tightly we get locked in the power struggle. And then everyone’s just on their own emotional roller coaster.
The reality is, it takes two people to be in a power struggle. And if you’re waiting for your toddler to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, I’ll do what you want,” you’ll be waiting a long time. Toddlers are developmentally driven to exert their will and be their own person. They’re likely to double down.
And toddlers can be really persistent. So we have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture. Instead of being so attached to one way of doing something, we can pivot in an empowered way.
That might mean moving forward and letting your toddler follow you. Maybe it’s giving them a choice between two things within your boundaries. Maybe it’s saying, “When you brush your teeth (or pick up this toy), then we can go outside (or read a book).”
There are so many different tools we can use to pivot out of power struggles. Because quite frankly, we’re the adults. We have to be the leaders and guides in these moments. Our toddlers aren’t going to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, sorry.”
Sarah: Yes. And the other thing I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is, if we’re not modeling flexibility, how are our kids going to learn it? If we can’t be flexible as parents, then how will our kids learn to be flexible?
So often parents say, “My kid is so rigid, they’re not flexible at all.” And then you listen to the parent a little, and it sounds like they’re also being pretty rigid with their child.
I think finding those graceful sidesteps—what you’re talking about—is so important. It’s not about someone winning and someone losing, but about how we can still get to the goal we’re trying to reach.
Devon: Exactly. And this is a very Montessori-aligned thought: we as parents have to create the container, the foundation. But within those boundaries, there are a million ways something can happen and get done.
So, we can give our child freedom within the boundaries. Of course they still need our guidance, but the key is to avoid backing out in a way that says, “Fine, you win.” Instead, we ask: how can we give them a sense of control within our boundaries? That way their developmental need for autonomy is met, while we’re still in charge overall.
Sarah: Okay. Going back to expectations—one thing I read in your book really struck me. You cited research showing that half of parents believe kids are capable of self-control and milestones earlier than they actually are.
I find that too—parents’ expectations are often way too high for the age their child is, or for where they are developmentally.
So, how do you know if your expectations are out of whack? And what happens—what are the negative things that can happen—when they are?
Devon: I always say we typically underestimate our child’s physical abilities and overestimate their social-emotional capabilities and impulse control.
There’s a lot of research and polls showing this is the case. And when we hold unrealistic expectations, we get really frustrated, because we think our toddler is being “bad,” doing something they shouldn’t be doing developmentally.
Then we turn it inward: “I must be doing a bad job. I’m messing up.”
The best way to know if your expectations are appropriate is by looking at your child’s behavior over time—over several days or a week. What’s really happening in those moments? If you see a consistent pattern, you can start to say, “Okay, maybe I’m asking too much of my child.”
That doesn’t mean you just throw the expectation out the window and say, “Too bad, I’ll try again next year.” It means they need more support.
So you scaffold the skill. For example, something like getting dressed takes a lot of planning and coordination. It’s a skill that needs to be built over time. We need to start transferring those skills to our children—with our support.
So when your expectations are too big, you don’t throw them out completely. You ask: how can I support my child to get where I need them to be?
Sarah: Yeah. I always talk about when there’s the gap between your expectations and the reality, a lot of conventional parenting is like, “Okay, well what threat or consequence do I need to close that gap?” But I always think about just like, what support do we need to close the gap between the expectations and reality?
And of course, sometimes I think you do—there is a place for throwing expectations out the window. Because sometimes they’re so far off that it’s better to let go of the expectation than to try to get your kid to do it.
Or, you know, I think resources can go up and down. One day your kid might be able to do something, and the next day their resources might be a lot lower and they can’t manage. We have to be flexible.
Devon: For the parent too. There are going to be days when we’re more resourced, and days when we didn’t sleep well. Maybe our toddler was up at 2:00 AM and we’re tired. There are days when we just feel like there’s too much to do and not enough time. Days when we have our own feelings, emotions, and needs that need attention, and there’s not a lot of space for that.
That’s where we really just need to have compassion for ourselves and for our toddlers, and really give each other the benefit of the doubt—knowing that we’re doing the best that we can. Then we can start working from that place: right now, we’re doing the best we can in this moment. What’s the next step to getting where we need to be?
I didn’t mention this in the book, but something I talk about a lot with my private clients is that oftentimes we want to jump from A to Z. And that’s a really big leap, right? We want to leap across the Grand Canyon, when really what we want to do is step across on stepping stones. Move from A to B, B to C, C to D. That’s how we eventually get to where we need to be.
This is true across the board when we’re thinking about expectations, skills, and things of that nature. So when we don’t try to do it all at once, we’re going to have more realistic expectations and we’re going to be less frustrated.
Sarah: Yeah.
Devon: That makes so much sense.
Sarah: I love also that you really, in the book, normalize toddler behavior. You mentioned before, throwing—and at one point, as I was reading your book, I wondered, “I wonder if she’s going to talk about play schemas.” And then you had the section on play schemas.
So much of what toddlers do, parents just don’t know is normal. Like you were talking about throwing food off the highchair. I always remind parents of the trajectory schema—how does the food move through space, or what happens when I drop this, and learning about gravity.
Speaking of normalizing, one of the things that I loved in your book was when you talked about avoiding positive dismissiveness. I loved how you addressed that—when parents say that kids are crying for no reason. Can you talk about that a little bit, what to avoid, and what to do instead?
Devon: Yeah. I decided to dedicate a chapter to crying because crying is such an important communication tool for kids. Beyond that, research shows that crying is actually beneficial to our bodies. It helps release hormones that make us feel better.
So crying serves a lot of purposes. When we look at crying as “fake crying” or “crying for no reason,” it really shortchanges a normal biological process, a normal way of communication for young children. It also dismisses a child’s needs.
Now, I will tell you, it is hard to hear your child cry. It is so hard. I had a baby that cried for hours on end—I’m talking five-plus hours a day. So I’ve heard my fair share of crying, probably enough for ten lifetimes.
It’s really hard for me, even now with my toddler, to hear him cry. But knowing that you’re not a bad parent and there’s nothing wrong if your child is crying—that this is actually an emotional release—is super helpful.
We don’t want our kids to shove it down. Instead of saying, “You’re fine, you’re fine”—which usually comes from a good place, because we just want our kids to feel better—we can say things like, “That must have been hard,” or, “That was unexpected,” or, “Oh, you fell down and scraped your knee. I’m sorry that happened.”
This creates emotional connection and helps build emotional resilience.
Sarah: I love that. Listeners to this podcast will have heard me talk a lot about emptying the emotional backpack. That’s what you’re talking about too—crying might not even be about the thing that just happened. It might just be how they’re releasing pent-up stresses, tensions, and big feelings they’ve been carrying around.
And the second part of what you’re talking about is really empathy, right? It’s so hard because we don’t always get why something is so upsetting—like you cut the sandwich wrong, or the muffin is broken in half and they want it whole.
But I always tell parents, it’s appropriate for little kids to have big feelings about small things. That’s their life perspective right now. They don’t have big adult problems like we do; they just have toddler problems. And to them, those are just as big.
Devon: Yeah. And I think it also really stems from this idea of a lack of control. A lot of crying isn’t really about the thing that happened—it’s just the release of all the pent-up stuff, and that was the last straw.
But why that becomes the last straw—like cutting the sandwich wrong or peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to—is because toddlers have so little control over their lives. Yet this is the stage where they’re craving control so badly, as they’re differentiating themselves and becoming their own person.
So that little thing, like peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to, just reinforces the lack of control they feel—and that’s what sends them over the edge.
Sarah: That makes so much sense. I just have so much compassion and empathy for toddlers. I think toddlerhood and middle school are the hardest times of childhood.
Okay, let’s shift into some tips, because I’m going to use you to ask some of the questions I get all the time. These have been the questions on repeat for the last 12 years I’ve been doing this.
Here’s what I hear:
My kid won’t get in the car seat—or they cry when they’re in the car seat.
They don’t want their diapers changed, even if it’s really wet or dirty.
They don’t want me to brush their teeth.
They won’t stop throwing things.
So if you want to lump some of those together, go for it—or take them one at a time. I’d love to hear your advice on those situations.
Devon: Absolutely. Most of these have to do with the toddler’s developmental drive to experiment and explore—and that happens through movement. Couple that with bodily autonomy: kids know inherently that they are in charge of their bodies.
You can’t force a child to eat, use the bathroom, or fall asleep. They are 100% in control of their bodies. That idea—that control is an illusion—is really tough for toddler parents to reckon with. But toddlers are great at teaching us this.
The faster we accept that control is an illusion, and that instead we are partners who have to work with our children, the better things will go. At the same time, we are the adults, and we are in charge. Sometimes we do have to cross a child’s bodily autonomy to keep them safe and healthy.
So let’s go through the examples.
Car seats: Toddlers don’t like being restricted—in a high chair, stroller, or car seat. Every toddler will push against this at some point. It can last for a while and come in phases.
Giving your child a sense of control helps: let them climb in, let them choose whether you buckle them or they do it, let them clip the chest strap. Play a silly song as a celebration when they’re in. Keep special toys in the car that they only get to play with there.
Also, start earlier than you think you need to, so you’re not rushing. But in the end, sometimes we do have to keep them safe by buckling them in. If we go against their autonomy, we need to talk them through what’s happening, support their emotions, and try again next time.
Diaper changes: When toddlers start refusing diaper changes, it means they’re ready for something new. They want to move from a passive bystander to an active participant in their toileting journey.
The first step is to change them standing up in the bathroom. Teach them how to push down their pants, undo the diaper tabs, or lean forward so you can wipe them. Yes, it’s harder to clean them up this way, but it gives them control.
Tooth brushing: Toddlers want control here too. I recommend three toothbrushes—one for each of their hands and one for you.
Sarah: I remember letting my kids brush my teeth with my toothbrush while I brushed theirs.
Devon: Exactly! That’s perfect. Another tip: start brushing your own teeth in front of them from a young age. Don’t put pressure on them; let them get interested in what you’re doing.
If it’s become a big power struggle, change up the environment. We often brush my son’s teeth in his bedroom, with his head in my lap—it’s actually easier that way. Change of scenery can make a big difference.
Sarah: I’ll share a tip that worked with my kids—we made up a story about “Mr. Dirt” who lived in their mouths, and every night we brushed him out. They loved hearing about his adventures while we brushed.
Devon: I love that. That’s playfulness—and playfulness creates connection, which creates cooperation. Play is the language of toddlerhood. The more we can tap into that, the better things go.
Sarah: Yes! I’m surprised we got this far without specifically calling out playfulness—it’s the number one tool in the toolbox for working with toddlers.
Devon: Exactly. Playfulness, role play, brushing a doll’s teeth first, or letting your child brush yours—it all helps toddlers feel powerful and understood.
Sarah: Okay, the last challenge: throwing things. I talked to a young couple who wanted to make a “no throwing” rule in their house. I told them I didn’t think that would work, since it’s such a developmental need. How do you manage throwing when it could be unsafe or destructive?
Devon: Great question. I talk about this in my book when I explain the recipe for effective discipline: connection, limits, and teaching skills.
First, get curious about what’s driving the behavior—throwing can mean so many things. Then, set clear limits: it’s not okay to throw breakables or throw at people. Finally, teach skills and alternatives.
Sometimes you can’t expect a two-year-old to regulate in the heat of the moment, so give them safe alternatives: a basket of balled-up socks, or paper they can throw into a laundry basket. This meets the need within your boundaries, while you also work on calming skills in calmer moments.
Sarah: That’s so helpful. Now, can you talk about why you don’t recommend timeouts, and why you prefer time-ins instead?
Devon: Yes. Timeouts are usually used as punishment—to teach a lesson or stop a behavior. But that’s shortsighted. Behavior is communication, and if we don’t understand what it’s telling us, it will keep popping up—like a game of whack-a-mole.
Also, kids often escalate in timeout, because they’re being cut off from their safe base—you. They need you to help them calm down.
That’s why I recommend time-ins instead. With time-ins, you’re still upholding limits and keeping everyone safe, but you’re staying with your child, supporting them, and helping them regulate. This builds long-term skills and emotional resilience.
Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for coming on and for writing this book. I really encourage anyone who is a toddler parent—or who knows one—to pre-order your book. It’s a fantastic addition to the peaceful parenting world, and so specific to toddler needs and development.
Before I let you go, here’s the question I ask all my guests: If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?
Devon: Gosh. I waited a long time to have a child, and I had a vision of how I wanted things to go. But I had a child with a lot of extra needs, and the things I thought would happen didn’t. So I would tell myself to loosen my expectations, be grateful for the moments I have, and be flexible in how needs get met.
Sarah: I love that. Perfect advice for parents of toddlers especially. Thanks so much, Devon.
Devon: Thank you! You can find me on Instagram at @transformingtoddlerhood, or on my website, transformingtoddlerhood.com/book for preorder info and bonuses.
Sarah: We’ll put the link in the show notes. Your book is comprehensive and very readable—even for me, far past the toddler years. Great job, Devon.
Devon: Thank you. That was my whole goal.
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