This is the second half of our live conversation with our friend Ashley O’Brion (the creative genius behind our branding). In this part of the conversation we talk about knowing the rules before you break the rules. How Becky had to live corporate America to learn busyness. How Ashley used discernment to tell when it was time to go from jobs that didn’t f feel aligned.
Ashley admits that she a fear of being seen and how she’s having to get comfortable with it in order to enter the workforce with an aligned job again.
We talk about micro dosing solitude and retreat time to keep you grounded in what matters to you and protecting solo time despite the daily demands of life.
And maybe the most important question to consider - do you walk into a room and assume people like you or don’t like you?
Finally, how to use the Ho’oponopono prayer and fuck it moments to cultivate an aliveness we all aspire to.
If you would like to learn more about Ashley’s creative genius, check out her website:
And as always, to learn more about Christina’s art or how you can work with Becky to sculpt your own intentional life, check out our websites below:
Episode Transcript
Becky: Hi. I wanted to respond before I listened to Christina’s response. But I just read the first line of her transcript that says she had the biggest smile on her face and I felt exactly the same way as I was listening to these. I saw them come in this morning, actually. I saw Jessie’s little picture and my heart just smiled.
Um, and I was like, I need to wait until I have the space to really listen. Um, which was just now. Because we’ve been, we’re in Maine and we just took this beautiful, incredible hike overlooking this carpet of yellows and oranges and reds, and then we saw the ocean. It was just like, my heart is exploding.
It just, it’s so beautiful. Ah, it’s all just so fucking beautiful.
That’s how I feel right now, and I’m so excited for our conversation coming up so soon. Um, yeah. Thank you for sharing. I love you. I love you both.
Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. This episode is part two of our very special live recording with our dear friend, Ashley O’Brion. In this part of the conversation, we talk a little bit more about our history working in corporate America and what we’ve learned, what we’ve gained.
We talked about discernment and getting comfortable with being seen. Microdosing, solitude, and retreat time to keep you grounded in what matters to you. And a very important question, when you walk into a room, do you assume people like you or do you assume people don’t like you? And how you can use “fuck it” moments to cultivate an aliveness
we all aspire to. I hope you enjoy.
Ashley: I have been curious about, you mentioned that you left your job. Mm-hmm. And I don’t know that whole story.
Becky: Oh yeah. So I worked for the same company for 13 years.
I was never career driven. But I, I was in grad school and I needed some money, so I found this job on Craigslist at this, what was then a very small startup. I was employee 50. It was like really small and it felt really creative and I grew with that company.
The company grew and the company became more and more corporate ended up going public. I, I was like slowly entered this current of corporate world without even realizing it. And it was so slow that I didn’t notice all the ways I was betraying myself.
All the ways I started to put up masks. I mean, my interview, so where I started, I was in grad school for philosophy, cosmology, and consciousness. Right? Like totally different. And in the interview they did like a day in the life interview and on the lunch break I’m like chatting with this girl about taking mushrooms.
Like that’s the state I was in. Very not corporate, right? So I felt like I could be myself. And then like I said, it just kind of morphed and I started to tie my value in how I was perceived at the job. Um, and so I was there for 13 years and it was great. It was wonderful and very grateful. But I just hit a point, like we had gone public, I think the year before, and I just hit this point of like.
I can’t do this anymore. They were acquiring another company. So it was this corporate merging and like I was trying to figure out what my role was gonna be I proclaimed I wanna do this and I was so proud ‘cause it took so much energy and work to like state what I wanted to do. I expressed to my boss, um, and then he was in San Francisco, but he was visiting in New York and he was like, I wanna see you, you know, come in, we’ll have a meeting. And I’m thinking, oh, he’s gonna give me my job.
You know, I’m like so excited. I was so sick. But I went into the city anyway. And it was the complete opposite. It was like, not only are we not giving you this job, you’re actually, we need you to do this job. Which was like total step back. It wasn’t growth. Um, and it wasn’t, there’s no, there’s no villain here.
Right? It’s just, it hit me in that moment. Like, I started crying in that meeting, which is so odd, not me. Mm. And then I was taking the train back home from the city and I couldn’t stop crying. Normally I could pull it together. ‘cause I’m like, there’s people seeing me. I usually can, can control it.
I had no control. It was just like sobbing on this train. Um, and, and that was my sign. And Tara, my partner. I, I was like, I don’t know if I can do this anymore.
But I was like so scared to say it and she was like, I think you should quit. And just
started bawling, you know, to be held in that space. Like, she knew exactly what I needed to hear. She knew I couldn’t say it. Um, so I quit. I was supposed to fly to an offsite two days later, and I was like, I’m not going to the offsite and I need to talk to you.
Yeah, I quit and it, um, we took a trip to San Diego where Tara’s parents are, and that’s where I had my last week. We were by the ocean in Ocean Beach in San Diego. And so it was all celebratory, right?
And then you come back home and it’s like, Ooh,
Christina: here we are.
Becky: Here we are. Mm-hmm. And we had kind of had this, Tara quit her job for a year right after we got married, so we kind of had a little bit of familiarity with, taking a break.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so the plan was I would take a year and not think about anything and not like plan anything and just have that space.
Um, and it was a roller coaster of like, I don’t know what to do with myself. What really became evident to me is I have this amazing supportive partner. We have set up our life. Like it wasn’t even that much of a financial strain. Um, we were in a great position, but it’s like giving myself permission to even take that time.
That was the only hurdle. I had a supportive partner. It was basically like, take this time.
Yeah.
We didn’t have financial pressures. We don’t have kids. It was nothing standing in the way of me really doing the work and, and allowing myself that space. The only thing that was stopping me was me. And so it was a real journey.
Um, and then it was like, oh shit. Well, what do I do with myself? I don’t know if I can go back to corporate world. I, I think I’m broken. I I was never designed for it in the first place. I stumbled into this like, you know, current of it accidentally, and I can’t go back. What, what the hell do I do? So that’s when I, um, I was like, well, if I can’t go back to that world, I guess I have to go back to kind of the world that I started with.
Meditation had always been a through line. So that’s when I went back and, and did my two year program. Um, but yeah, it was a, it was a journey. It was,
Christina: we wouldn’t know each other if you didn’t have that corporate job. It’s true. Yeah. Thank you.
Corporate job.
Becky: Thank you. Corporate job. How, how did you two meet? Um, it was actually beautiful ‘cause it was like this window of time working corp, and I should say this, that I was so fortunate in that corporate space. I don’t know why they trusted me, but like for a long time of my career, I had my own team.
And I could kind of run that team in the way that I wanted. Like we would meditate in, in my little tiny team that no one paid attention to.
So when I met Christina, so I went from running our credentialing team, which is like the most boring part of healthcare. It’s the people who make sure that the doctors are on the books and in contract with the health plans. It’s like the worst bureaucracy in healthcare in America.
But for some reason I loved it. It’s like, what could I do here? It’s like, I think it’s the constraints, right? Sometimes that’s helpful. Yeah. I think I do really well with constraints. Yeah. And there was. So many constraints. I was like, game on. Game on. One time, this is a, a I’ll come back, but there was one time where we were opening up in Washington dc we were opening up a new location there.
We were having such a hard time getting our, our doctors license because the licensing board was just like so slow and so backlogged. So I made friends with someone at the licensing board and I would like, maybe I flirted it a little bit, you know, it was very innocent. But, you know, I think about like, these, their job sucks too, so let’s like make friends Sure.
And got our provider’s license faster. So, um, so I liked those constraints of like mm-hmm. How can I play with this? Yeah. But when I met Christina, this is how random my career was. So I came from that world, right? That, that was like a big part of my career. And then. Our head of real estate was going on maternity leave and I was like her maternity leave plan.
‘cause I was like running special projects at that time. It was weird, but it was amazing. So, um, I was in charge, I was a project manager of opening our new corporate space, so I was working with the interior designer and Christina, uh, had worked with that interior designer and so she came in to do an art piece.
Christina: Yeah. Um,
Becky: so that’s how we met.
Christina: Yeah. Wow. I did an art installation in her corporate headquarters office, which was like one of those cool places where you could like, get delicious food and swing on a swing. Yeah. You know, and, um, yeah. And like you, even, I remember you were the one who came in on the weekend so I could come and install while you guys weren’t working.
Yeah. And then Becky did the brave thing of being like, do you wanna go out to dinner? Yeah. And I was like, yeah, are we making a new friend? Are you like trying to pick me up? I actually don’t really know, but yes, I like spending time with you. I wasn’t married, but I was, I think I made it clear I was in relationships.
Yeah. Something, this is totally platonic, but like how do you not had corporate life? Yeah. This is like one of the most fruitful friendships of my lifetime. Yeah. Who, who knew?
Becky: That’s why I had no regret. You know? That’s why like the, even like thinking about um, our culture of busyness and all these things, it’s so easy for me to get angry at it. Yeah. And I do get angry for sure. Um, that’s why it’s so important to be with the anger. ‘cause then the anger can move through and it doesn’t get stuck because if, if it doesn’t move through me, then I miss everything that I’m grateful for, for that experience. You know, it’s so easy to forget that I wouldn’t know you.
Mm-hmm. I
wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have moved to New York. I wouldn’t have met Tara. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, it’s like
Ashley: this is also the, the way of our culture. So you also develop empathy for the way that so many people live their lives. Yeah. And it served you for the time that it needed to serve you For sure.
And who you were at that moment.
Becky: That is so true. I’ve been so, I’ve been doing the awful, awful project for me of beefing up my LinkedIn profile. I’m doing the, it’s hard out there doing the, the marketing stuff, you know? Yeah. Which, um, but one thing I was made, Tara, give me a brainstorming session ‘cause she’s brilliant and has amazing ideas.
But one thing we were, she was pointing out and I was really thinking about is. Like, what is my differentiator? Or whatever. And I think it is kind of part of that, like I do know what it’s like to be so busy and, um, to be in that culture and to know that not, not everyone can go quit their job. Like, that’s not realistic.
So how can I meet those people exactly where they, they are? Um, that’s huge. Yeah. That’s huge. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, I’m so grateful, but I also get angry. It’s like how to hold both, you know? I’m so angry at, you know, watching this beautiful, like, it felt like such a, when it was a startup and our founder, it was like this beautiful, like creative and messy, but it was like trying to change the world.
Like the founder of the company I was at, like really want, you can feel it when you’re around him. Like he wants to change the world. And then to watch it go this corporate route and eventually get bought by Amazon.
Ashley: Hmm. Totally.
Becky: But it’s, it’s all of it.
And I got Christina. Yeah. And a lot of people in the United States get good primary care.
Yeah. There’s
Ashley: Yeah. Because of
Becky: them. Yeah.
Ashley: It’s great. And maybe to know the way of, the way of busyness allows you to then carve out the path. Like you have to know the rules before you break the rules. That’s true. So really becoming familiar with the world of these rules and living them fully now has given you this path to create a podcast where you’re helping shed light on Yeah.
Alternative paths.
Becky: That’s so true. And and in, in my offering. And my teachings, my courses. It’s everything I’ve lived, I had to live it for sure. Mm. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Like, um, yeah, we need, we need beacons of light who just show us where we’re going.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and you, yeah. We need people who have walked a path. It’s not gonna be the same, like, you’re not walking the same path as me, but, you know, similar enough direction mm-hmm. That you can show other people, like, here’s the resources you might need, here’s what you might encounter. Yeah.
Christina: I always found corporate, uh, corporate jobs to be incredibly difficult.
I never understood how to be myself inside of them. Mm-hmm. Really? ‘cause I don’t think I’m supposed to be in a corp. I don’t think many people are supposed to be.
Ashley: You’re supposed to be your professional self.
Becky: Yeah.
Ashley: And reserve your. Private self. I can’t separate the two. I know we’re not meant to. No,
Christina: no. And um, yeah, I wasn’t snuffed out a lot before that, so it was really difficult for me to, to do that.
I remember in corporate jobs, I would just make lists of dreams, just like, what do I want to be doing instead of this? That’s how I would like channel my energy into it. Like if I was like in the fitting room that like, uh, and that’s, I guess that’s, is that corporate, if you’re like Yeah. Kish. Um, are you talking about anthropology?
Yeah. When I was in anthropology before I got like the dream job, I was, I was literally like in the fitting room being like, what’s your name? How many do you have? And I was just like, God, what else would I rather be doing right now? I would rather be making my own art in my apartment on a tiny corner.
This is how much money it would cost me to not do this. And I would just like spend all that excess energy. ‘cause I have a lot of energy. I would put it there. Mm-hmm. And then eventually that happened, like those dreams happened, but it’s, um. It’s so fascinating to me. Everybody’s different. Everybody’s path is different.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I’m always astounded when people can mask enough or like actually feel joy in corporate life. It’s just amazing. Good job guys.
Yeah. This is actually like, to bring it back to Golden Rod. Golden Rod has been so alive for me because I was, um, in one of my, or in the last little retreat that I had for myself, I was sitting on the porch. Thinking, like connecting all of these threads. ‘cause that’s what happens when I go and get quieter.
All these threads are like, and they just weave into this beautiful little tapestry. And then I have that to bring forward. And I, I was thinking, I was like, God, you know, I think like why, why do I feel this connected to things like why, why, why? And then I just burst into big happy tears and was like, you know, I think Golden Rod actually understands this more than most people that I meet in life.
And I was like, oh, how am I the same? And how am I different to Golden Rod? Which was a really cool, like, because I had given myself this time, this was like day three of solitude. Mm-hmm. And I had this moment of incredible clarity where I could sit and ponder why I am the same and different from Golden Rod, which to me is really valuable time.
Mm-hmm. That’s a big deal to be able to admit that out loud. Mm-hmm. Like Christina five years ago probably wouldn’t have admitted that.
Mm-hmm.
But it is, and in that moment I thought, oh, golden Rod, golden Rodd understands this feeling more than most people. And I am different than Golden Rodd because I have a voice and I can write and I have language.
And that was a really nice answer to this, like, rumbling that I had felt that like there’s something coming around the bend for me and I think it’s writing. And that was like a really clarifying moment that I would not have had where I, in the fitting room, offering people things with my corporate masked Christina self.
Mm-hmm.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Yeah. But it’s nice, it’s nice again, like for people to have all these different examples of, of the discernment in others in their community to realize maybe that’s not where they’re supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Take a break. Maybe go back to it. Maybe not. Yeah. Do you have clarity on like what’s ahead?
Ashley: Um,
I’m still kind of living mm-hmm. In, in figuring that piece out. I think that there’s been moments of clarity. I probably won’t step back into a full-time career job. Um, I am at, at the moment giving more time to my artistic practice, which in, in a funny little twist at the moment is, um, feeling very job-like, because we’re at a moment of funding our studio.
so we’re, we’re doing some things that we, we. a year or two years ago said that we wouldn’t be doing, um, but that’s because we, we need to fund things in, in a real way. Yeah. Especially now that I don’t have a career job paying for part of the studio. Um, so that, that’s taking up a lot of my time right now.
And then I am taking on some freelance that feels aligned with, with myself and mission. Um, I know that some of the clarity that has come through is that I am very mission focused, so if I, if I’m not aligned with a mission, it feels very inauthentic.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: Um, and that has, that was true for a few different jobs that I held, um, and I held on longer than I should have.
And in one of the jobs. The, the recognition piece was, if I feel this again, I will, I will make the decision faster. Good for you. And that was this last job where I left. I felt the feeling again, and I was like, I can’t linger in this as I did. Mm. As as I did before. Um, but in, in the quieter life that I’m living, I think that there are things that have come through that I’ve had more time to percolate on that feel like a direction.
Um, and that, that will probably be an offshoot of something that is pottery related. Yeah. But that is my own entity. And I think, um, I think. One piece that I have recognized in myself is that I have a fear of being seen.
Christina: Whoa.
Ashley: And I really, really resonated with you, Becky, when you said the same thing on this podcast.
And I sat with that for a little while and I tried it on. Mm-hmm. Because I think that I’ve, I’ve noticed that about myself, but I’ve never actually owned that for myself.
And when I go back and I look through my life, the moments where I was maybe coming up to be seen a little bit more I quickly became smaller hid.
Um. And I think part of that has to do with the trusting of self. I think because I, I didn’t have that knowing and deep trust of myself to be seen as somebody that I wasn’t sure that I was Yeah. Was the moment that I would be like, oh my gosh, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s me or not. Um, and I feel more grounded in myself now that I think I could stand behind something, um, and be seen in it as long as it was really, really feeling true.
And I have, I have some things that are coming up that feel very true, and it would, it would potentially put me in a schedule that looks like what my life did look like. Mm. But I think, um, building it, knowing that I don’t want that would be like, how can I actively create a company or a startup? And not have it be startup culture, startup mentality.
And, and I, I fall into giving my, all to the things that I do when I have a tough time saying, saying, okay, that’s like all you can give. Like I really do pour my whole self into my work. So that would be something that I’d have to navigate. Yeah. Try to figure that piece out.
Christina: Hmm. That’s great. That’s so exciting.
Yep. And now you’ve been practicing being with that feeling and taking action with that feeling. Like when you said with that first job that you had that feeling of unease for a while, then you realized, okay, if I feel this again, I will recognize it. You will probably recognize it again if you get into something that’s yours and it’s that way.
Um. Yeah,
Becky: This is, I think, the myth of, you know, when people are growing you don’t get rid of your busy mind. Mm-hmm. You don’t get rid of insecurities, you learn how to be with them. Mm-hmm. You learn how to be in relationship with them and not let them stop you ‘cause you’re, because you’re figuring out this is what is the, you, you know, and these other voices are, it’s, it’s part of you, but it’s not the, it doesn’t have to be the deciding force.
Um, and this is the thing is like, there’s so many ways to, I think we’re so limited in our, in our thinking about like, what is a company or what a company can be. And I always look at, um, do you know Chani Nicholas? She’s an astrologer. Mm-hmm. Of course I do. Oh, of course you do. Of course you you’re in our orbit.
She, but the way she runs her company Yeah. Is so rad. And she’s clearly like living her values in the ways she runs that company. And I don’t know, you never know what it’s like from the inside. Right.
But from the outside, it, it just reminds me that when we step back into these places of like, like you were on a retreat, I’ve been on a retreat. When you step back in, I think you do have to like figure out how to integrate everything you learned. And um, and that’s a process. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley: And I think that it, it is telling, we can bring some of those practices into, into, uh.
Busy and corporate life. Yeah. And those will make, those practices, will, will remind us of our true selves and mm-hmm. And what’s truly important to us. Yeah. So it’s not, it’s not the formula isn’t everyone go quit your job. No. You know, everyone leave corporate life because that’s, that’s not the way that, you know, the way that we can do things.
But we can pause, we can take a retreat. I mean, high higher ed builds sabbatical. Yeah. And in that model would be so lovely to see throughout corporate life. Um, having the sabbatical to just check back in and realign yourself with what’s important to you or what, you know, actually take the time to, to give your attention and energy to the project that has been on the back burner.
Yeah.
Becky: See, I was lucky because. The corporate job I was in did have sabbaticals every five years. Amazing. That’s amazing. You got four weeks to just explore. So in the time I was there, I’d had two. And it is so important, and I agree with you. It’s like you can’t not everyone can, you know, do a 180 in their life.
But, um, when I was on retreat at Essel n uh, one of the people in my group who became a dear friend, she talked about how like, when you come back, you can’t do a 180 in your life. It’s too hard. It’s unrealistic. ‘cause you know, you go on retreat and then you come back and it’s like, how do I become who I was there?
You’re just different. But she gave me this image of like, if you can just change your life two degrees Mm. And then over time, you’re in a completely different place. Yes. And , yeah. It’s, it’s not about, it’s about like. Like, take your weekend. Mm-hmm. Yes. You know, and actually play with that weekend and treat it as a retreat and then bring it back into your day to day.
Mm-hmm.
Christina: Absolutely. That’s like what, that’s like what I believe Rilke meant when he said live the questions. Mm-hmm. And on being talks about this all the time, but even like when you actually were saying how, um, I am someone in your life who consciously prioritizes time for things that matter. I believe that I am living what I have always aspired to because I consciously do that because it’s like, it’s like a way of microdosing and living into the questions of like right now feeling like, I don’t know, um, I don’t know, kind of like where I’m headed in and I’m coming from a place of very.
Living in the dream that I’ve had for myself and there’s still something new coming. There are all of these conscious seeds, like these conversations keep everything very, um, alive and aligned and deeper thinking. Mm-hmm. So that then, you know, if I’m having more conversations with, with you guys or with Becky every other week, um, the things that are really true are the things that are on the surface all the time.
Mm-hmm. Routinely, like over and over again. And I think that’s another way of, um, staying really aligned with the things that matter. Mm-hmm. Um,
Becky: it’s like systematizing it. This is what keeps Yeah. And again,
Christina: maybe this is, that’s your brain, but Yes. This is
Becky: another thing that I’m thinking of right now. Yeah.
‘cause I need systems. Mm-hmm. And, and when you’re caught in the current, even if you don’t have an ADHD brain like mine, but like when you’re caught in the current of corporate America. You need nudges, you need to like systematize.
Mm-hmm.
Getting those little moments, otherwise it’ll never happen. Mm-hmm.
I mean, I know you said earlier about like, you know, you have your journaling time mm-hmm. And then your journaling time’s over, which I get that that’s not as flowy and expansive as having three days. Um, but it’s like little doses that just keep you anchored.
Yes. Yeah. And this is important and you’re making sure it happens. Yeah. And then, yeah, like, I mean, I just, I’ve seen so many people go on retreat and they wanna live their life on retreat. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, that’s not where your life is. That’s not like, that’s like where you remind yourself, yes, this is what’s important.
And it retreats I do think are important because you step away and then you come back with new perspective.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: Um, but what’s more important is the practices of of, okay, I got these messages, I got these tools.
Tools are only as good as you use ‘em. Mm-hmm. And if you can’t use them in your busy life, they’re not valuable.
Right. They’re not the tools for you. Right.
I’m speaking to myself here, by the way. Mm-hmm. If anyone’s unclear and podcast land, because I was reflecting on like, you have three kids, a dog, a thriving business, and you find all this, you no, you don’t find mm-hmm. You make sure that you have all this space and time. I know, I, you could argue I have lots of space.
I have no kids. I’m building a business. Um, but it’s not like busy yet. Mm-hmm. And I, I forget, I forget to give myself the space. So it’s not about how much time you have. Yeah. It really isn’t. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s about prioritizing it and if you have five minutes, but you devote your presence to that five minutes, that’s gonna be more powerful than taking an entire retreat where you’re still in the busy mind.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Christina: And it’s a matter of actively prioritizing and protecting that time. So every time, I mean, every time I’ve gone away, something has come up that’s like, oh shoot, I should really be there for that. Mm-hmm. Sorry, I can’t, I started to change the way that I think about it and I, and I changed the way, like when that time Andrew and I have a shared calendar, so when that time is in there, that is, that is like locked in, that does not get taken.
He doesn’t even reach out to me when I’m gone. Like, people could be, you know, unless someone’s like actively dying, I don’t get reached. Um, and it’s, it’s just protecting that time has been something that I mostly, most of all me, have had to really practice and not put at the bottom of the priority list.
Yeah. And honestly like it’s made the most, it’s, I don’t know, it’s just made the most difference in my life and it’s so easy to think this doesn’t matter ‘cause I’m actually feeling really good. Like at first it started with more of a desperation feeling.
Mm-hmm
I need this, I have to get it. Or I would recognize the frenetic energy in my body too late, which meant that I had actually gone too far without supporting myself in that, like, solitude.
Um, but now it’s at the point where I’m actually much more real, well resourced, more often. And so then taking that time feels like a little frivolous, but I still do it and it’s so rewarding, um, because the idea wouldn’t be to always get to that point and be at such an empty cup that you need to spend it all filling the cup back up again to arrive at that gift of time with a full cup that’s like,
hmm.
So great.
Becky: I still have to battle this mentality in myself and I, I’m equating it to my meditation practice. Yeah. For so long in my journey, I would reach for those practices as a fix, as like, there’s something going on in my life, I need to reach for this. Um, and it took so long for me to get out of that mentality of like, there’s nothing broken.
Mm-hmm. This isn’t a fix of anything. This is something that supports me and nourishes me. It’s like food, it’s like a non-negotiable because if I don’t get this, I don’t have the resources that I need. Um, but I could see how like, it does feel different. I don’t know if this is pointing to what you were feeling of like it feeling frivolous when you’re feeling resource, but Yeah.
Like I would just, so many times in my path I would give up the meditation practice. Yeah. Because it’s like, because I’m doing fine. Well, I don’t need it anymore. I’m fine.
Christina: Yep.
Becky: And I think it’s a reflection of our culture. You know, we we’re in such a, like a pathologizing culture mm-hmm.
Where , you know, there’s something wrong with you, so you do this thing so that you’re better and then you don’t need the thing anymore. But it’s like, no, we’re not broken. Mm-hmm. We’re living in kind of a sick society right now. Yeah. So maybe we, you know, we need these resources to just survive in this climate.
That’s how I feel anyway. Mm-hmm. I feel like there’s nothing wrong with me, but I need to be resourced to open my eyes in the morning, because it feels hard sometimes to be human and to be alive and to just get up. Mm-hmm.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: You have to, how are you gonna show up for others in your life if you’re not resourced? Mm-hmm. Hmm. Like that.
Christina: Like that mm-hmm. That breath.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Exactly.
Ashley: Mm-hmm. That was one of the the messages that came through. I did internal family systems work. I know you guys have talked about that. Um, the shocking messages that I got, because I thought I was going into internal family systems to find out the root of all of the things that were wrong with me.
You know, I was gonna see the little abandoned child or the, you know, like really angry part. Um, and I was instead confronted with the first message that I received was, you are safe. And that was shocking, that that would be the first message that I would get in doing internal work because I was expecting something completely opposite.
And then later on, another message that came through was, you are good. And those were the, those two messages were profound Yeah. For me to deliver to myself. Mm-hmm. Because that was not what I was thinking was going on, on the inside. And I think that that is a product of our society, I think, I think we do have, um, the mentality of what will fix me?
What will fix me? What will fix me? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and that is, that’s actually when I found that I go to my journal the most is when I’m feeling the most in distress. Mm-hmm. Is I’m using it as a, as a place to work through things or even running, sometimes running when I’m feeling particularly anxious.
Mm-hmm. Um, that’s another way that I’m resetting myself, but it’s not, I find that when I am feeling great mm-hmm. I am not doing those things that fill me up
so much as, as often. Yeah. Um, it’s like the, it’s the wellness culture versus the sick culture. What do we call the opposite of wellness culture?
Like, I don’t know, you know, like, like Eastern is more wellness focused and we’re more western.
Christina: I don’t know,
Ashley: like where we treat the illness, we don’t prevent the illness. Oh yes. You know what, I don’t know what that’s
Christina: called, but I know what you’re referring to.
Becky: I just call it the American healthcare.
Becky: No. Well, what was striking me when you were speaking earlier about this like lineage of, you know, am I good or am I, um, I was just, it was hitting me. Um, like going back to like original sin and how that is portrayed and like,
Christina: yeah,
Becky: I don’t know. I’m looking at it from the outside, but I’m curious because we’ve had conversations, um, around this. I had no. Maybe indoctrination is not, not a kind word, but, you know, I know like programming mm-hmm. From religion. Are you tracing any of that back to like Yeah,
Ashley: yeah. For sure. I mean, that was, that’s the foundation of my life. Yeah.
Is, um, um, a flavor of Christianity that is very particular, even among my, my friends who have been brought up in a similar way. Um, I think that my version of Christianity was just more intense.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: Um, my parents both came to Christianity when I was five, so it was like new. Um, really wanting to embrace the culture.
Mm-hmm. It was in the south in the eighties, so that was, I think that that was a moment in, um, in the way that Christianity was permeating our culture and just becoming its own kind of like subculture.
Christina: Yeah.
Ashley: Um, and I, I have like a lot of experiences that were shared, among people my age who were growing up at the same time.
Um, and I think that the, the biggest one was the, um, you’re saved, like, you’re so bad, but luckily Jesus can save you from your horrible nature. And that is the one that stuck,
Becky: yeah.
Ashley: All the way through was, and that I think that that is the lack of trust in self. Yeah. It’s like you should not trust yourself.
You should only trust God. Um, and I think that’s the work to undo. But I also see so many pieces that are, um, in alignment with, with actually how I am living now. So my parents both are very devout Christians, and I have had this toss up between feelings of anger, um, feelings of gratefulness for how I grew up, um, and, and wanting to separate from it, but then also acknowledging in so many conversations that I have with my parents.
Um. They’re, they’re such spiritual people, so yeah. It’s like we’re speaking the same language. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, uh, with a different lens. Sure. You know, one that I am now coming around to be able to like, recognize within them. I don’t know that they would be able to extend the same lens to me, but I can see the crossover.
Yeah. I can see how wonderful, , the, the institute, there’s so many things within the institution that are great. Like it’s meditative. Yeah. It’s, um, positive thinking. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s collective people coming together collectively, um, to have conversations that extend beyond superficial mm-hmm. Yeah.
Things. Yeah. Um, so it gets really intense and really deep and really caring and really connected. And that was the. The place that I grew up. Mm-hmm. So then when I didn’t have it anymore, which was for probably a good like 12 year span where I was, where I was separating from all of that. Mm-hmm. That was when I felt like the ground floor came out from under me because I had no, every way in which I had made decisions and lived my life and, and had like, anchored myself was to prayer and to what God was gonna show me and the signs and getting the message from inside, which is, is the way actually that I live.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ashley: But I just had to learn that I, I had to relearn that that is what I need and I didn’t need to completely turn, turn it off. It’s just a different version.
Becky: Yeah.
Ashley: Now.
Becky: Yeah. It’s like a coming home to. What you, what’s like part of your DNA? Yes. But from a, a new perspective. Yeah.
Ashley: And when I, when I hear my parents talking in the way that they talk, which I, I have, um, sometimes lovingly referred to as Christian Ease when I hear them talk that way.
Like they’re, they’re so, uh. Authentic in what they’re saying. They’re so, they’re so filled up by it. Yeah. And I used to get furious when I would hear it coming out, and now I find it endearing and I, I find it like, oh yeah, that’s why I talk like that. That’s why I am leaning into this spiritual side of me, because that is what’s familiar and that’s what I was surrounded with my whole life was, was two people that had decided to like, live by the signs and not by, you know, like some, um, plan, you know, they were a plan in the sense that it was like God’s plan, but they had to discover God’s plan, which was outside of them.
So I feel, I feel more gratitude towards them these days and alignment in how I live my life. It’s just a different way.
Becky: Yeah. I, I am realizing more and more the things that make us angry or the things that we judge Yeah. Are like indicators. Yes. Suck. Good inside it needs to shift. Mm-hmm. Or it’s like a calling.
They’re like, really? That’s why the moving, letting those emotions be here and move through us and give us messages is so important. Because if, for myself, if I get stuck in like, I’m feeling this anger and I judge the anger and it stays out there about the other, the other person, then I never bring it in and learn the message that I’m meant to get from that.
It’s hard though. It’s hard. It’s so much easier and cathartic to be like, it’s those people, it’s their fault.
Ashley: Totally. The um, I recently came across this. Um, practice or ritual? A Hawaiian ritual. So you’re, you’re actively clear clearing and cleansing the energy that you’re bringing. Mm-hmm. And, and I that has, that has been sitting with me.
But do you wanna share what it is though? Um, okay. So Ho ao, has four, four. steps in this ritual. It’s acknowledging the situation and, and giving in. I’m sorry for the situation. Uh, please forgive me asking for forgiveness, for forgiveness for your role.
A thank you expressing gratitude for the experience in the lesson. And then I love you sending love to yourself in the situation. And the way that I came across it was, actually for the, the example was when you are dealing with someone who you feel like doesn’t like you and you are, you are saying, I’m sorry for the things that I’m bringing up inside of you mm-hmm.
That like my presence or my way of being stirs something in you. Mm-hmm. Um, and I forgive you for having that feeling and I’m like, I’m sending you love. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that, that it’s so great. It’s so, so great. Yeah. And it reminds me of another thing too, which, um, we, Christina and I had talked about this, where, um, we, we had a conversation about how I hold within me, um, I have this self built in self-defense mechanism, um, where I walk into any situation and I just put out this assumption into the room that nobody likes me.
Becky: Were you always aware of this? Or did this become conscious later? Would you really walk into a room and think in your head, wow, no one likes me.
Ashley: Yeah. No, no, no. I still, I still like really. Really struggle with this. And it’s the way that it was, it was pointed out to me by several people at different times, they would tell you yes.
Like you, you keep thinking that nobody likes you, but people like you. And Christina and I talked about this because she said that her mom has acknowledged that she walks into a room. Yeah. And she assumes that everyone likes her.
Becky: That’s a practice.
Ashley: That is a practice. That is a way, I know a way of being because it, whatever the storyline is in your head is the thing that you are bringing.
Christina: Yeah.
Ashley: In, in your lens of interpreting everyone’s action. So if I am thinking you don’t like me and , you just walk by me. Mm-hmm. That is feeding into the narrative that I have. And also I’m putting out terrible energy into world closed off from everyone. Like dark. I would be guarded.
Becky: Yeah. Yeah. You might be guard.
Like if you think I don’t like you, you’re gonna put up walls and I’m gonna sense the walls. Mm-hmm. And it is like this, the world only exists through our own lenses. Yes. Like, yeah. So if you think the whole room likes you or the whole room hates you. Yes, that’s true. Yeah. It’s exact same room.
Ashley: And I think that’s where this whole pono, pono, um, almost is like this little crack in it because I can be like, if I’m still in that mentality, which I realize is a falsification, I can extend the.
I’m sorry if I trigger something in you Yeah. Be like, I forgive you. I’m actually gonna send you love. And it like, helps me to just open myself up and be more open, um, even if I’m still projecting things that aren’t correct.
Becky: But that’s a bridge. Yeah. That’s like such a cool bridge. I, so when I was younger I was very insecure. So insecure. And like to the point when I was , in high school, I wouldn’t wanna look in the bathroom. You know, you go to the bathroom and then you wash your hands and the girls are like prepping their hair or whatever.
And I would purposely , not wanna look in the mirror because I didn’t want people to think like I had such low opinion of myself that I didn’t want people to think that I like,
Christina: cared enough to look Yeah. Or
Becky: like tried to make myself Yeah. You know, total protection.
Wow.
But so when I, um, I started bartending when I was 21 and all these like.
Like the pretty girls or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, would come in and I would feel like, oh, they must hate me. They must think like, I’m so awful. Right. Like, so I would play this game as a bridge. Some was like, okay, Becky, what if they hate you?
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: What are they gonna do? Are they gonna come in and are they gonna insult me?
Okay. That will be embarrassing. And then I would extend it. I would be like, okay, well what if they hated me so much? They punched me in the face. Okay. It would hurt, but it would heal. It’d be fine.
What if they hated me so much that they killed me? But it was helpful for me to say, even if this ridiculous thing that I’m thinking, ‘cause it’s a ridiculous thing to think that these girls aren’t thinking anything about me.
Me. Mm-hmm. They, they don’t care about me. But it’s uh, taking this irrational thought and extending it out to, its like worst conclusion or like most extreme situation. And say like, yeah, okay. I’d be okay. Like,
Ashley: so you’re asking yourself if you could be with it, like be with it. Yeah.
Becky: Before I had any conscious, like this was, that’s so cool. Wild, right? Yeah. This is crazy. I am just, thank you for that connection because I didn’t quite make that connection. You were Yeah. I guess I meant for this practice. ‘cause it, and it helped me. ‘cause then after a while I didn’t care. Yeah. I didn’t care.
‘cause it’s like, what are you gonna do? Kill me. Right. And it just opened me up a little bit. But you have to start where you are. Mm-hmm. You can’t start with like, it would feel so inauthentic to go from like, I’m walking into the room assuming everyone’s hating me to, I’m gonna assume everyone loves me.
Like your body is, you’re nervous. It’s hard system is gonna be like no fucking Yeah. You have to do the 2% Believe that. Yeah. You have to do the 2%. Yeah. You have to do like something. That starts where you are. Because otherwise it’s like I can listen to your mom’s practice and say , that’s cool.
That’s not me. You know? Or that’s, it feels too far away. And then I think what it does to me is it makes me judge who I am. That I’m can’t do that. That meaning the,
Christina: except that everyone, or expect that everyone likes you.
Becky: Yeah. I’ll start judging myself that, that, because that seems like that’s a better way to live.
Mm-hmm. And that’s just not a path
Christina: No.
Becky: Of like, you have to start there. We are all unique and different and beautiful and accepting that is like the most powerful thing I think anyone can do. And just realize we’re all just so different.
Ashley: Mm-hmm. Makes things far less exhausting when you’re trying to be something you’re not.
Yeah.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: It’s so freeing to do the crazy thing.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Plant yourself in your, to plant yourself.
Ashley: Mm-hmm. How did it feel afterwards? We went cold plunging right after. Oh yeah. So we walked down the street covered in dirt. Yes. Um, it felt, I think the best word was alive. Mm. It felt alive because we have this life, we have these bodies.
We can do the things now and what is stopping us? Yeah. Do it. Do it now.
Becky: Whenever I have those moments it’s like a fuck it moment, right. Where you’re like, I’m just gonna do the thing and I’m not gonna care. And every time I do it, it shocks me how, like, what was stopping me?
Christina: But yeah, that’s like where you live, living in the fuck it moments should be everybody’s goal.
I mean, you have to like, you have to be reasonable.
Becky: You have to be reasonable, I guess
Christina: sometimes. Mm-hmm. At least a little bit. Especially when you have things like free kids and like you need health insurance and stuff, but, but you can weave the fuck it moments into your days. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Or
Becky: like find a ‘cause the, the, the fuck it moments are we’re earning our, and our expletive, our expletive.
When you get that message of I wanna bar bury myself in the, the ground it’s coming from, I think it’s coming from something beyond us, something bigger than us from source, from God if you mm-hmm. Like that language. Um, I, God it’s coming from something, it feels like an honoring. I don’t think those messages are ever going to tell you to do something that’s really bad for your.
For yourself.
Christina: Yeah. And I believe they’re coming to you because they’re for you. Mm-hmm.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: Right. Like none of my crazy ideas have felt wrong when I’ve done them.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy. I mean, yours, your version of like an awakened aliveness. Ashley was planting yourself or burying whatever you, I say planting, you say burying, so there’s a different consciousness there, but, but you did that and
Becky: she’s a composter.
Christina: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Probably. You guys are both composters. I am not. You started categorized. I know, but like that’s your version of something very alive. And my version of something very alive was sitting and watching the light move from the ceiling to the floor. Mm-hmm. Two completely different things.
Probably felt equally as brave,
right? Mm-hmm.
And just to do them is so illuminating.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And important to just do them. Where do they go? Who cares if they go nowhere? Right. You did them, right? Mm-hmm. So good. They’re so good. Mm-hmm.
Fuck it moment.
Becky: The alive moments. Yeah.
Christina: We could go get in the ocean now and get alive. Yeah.
Ashley: Well, thank you guys. My gosh. Thank you.
Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Yep. Fuck it. I’m gonna write an email tonight. And you know, there are people who won’t have the bandwidth for this, but this is something I always have the bandwidth for and I am an Aries and I will live my true nature in that and just be the fire starter here, while other people don’t ‘cause that I’m doing it, I’m gonna do it.
Look for the email later. Okay, bye.
