This week’s conversation is a continuation of our series: “The World Is On Fire. What Can I do?” And this week we’re in conversation with our friend and friend of the podcast, Ashley O’Brion. In this conversation, Ashley shares how she’s finding ways to show up in this moment that feel aligned and accessible and really sweet.
If you’re enjoying these conversations, share your favorite episode with a friend, subscribe on Substack, and like or comment. We would love to be in conversation with you.
If you would like to know more about Ashley or Becky and Christina’s work outside the podcast, check out our websites.
Show Notes
Check out the On Being podcast with guest Adrienne Maree Brown to dive deeper into emergent strategy and fractals.
And if you want to start playing with the garden metaphor as an entry into finding your own authentic role in movement, check out the list that Ashley created. We view this as a starting point for understand, a first draft, not a rigid framework that’s universal. Send us a message or comment if this resonates or you have anything to add/alter. We would love to hear from you!
🌱 The Gardener (Seed Planter)
* Imagines new ways of being
* Starts experiments, pilot projects, cultural shifts
* Often misunderstood early on
Strengths: Vision, hope, imagination
Watch-outs: Burnout, being ahead of the moment
⸻
🍂 The Composter (Transformer)
Sits with the hard, messy work of breakdown.
* Names harm, grief, and failure
* Breaks down old systems, stories, and power structures
* Holds truth without rushing to “solutions”
Strengths: Depth, honesty, healing
Watch-outs: Getting stuck in despair or endless critique
⸻
🌿 The Tender (Caretaker)
Keeps things alive day-to-day.
* Nurtures people, projects, and morale
* Checks on burnout, builds trust, offers care
* Makes movements sustainable
Strengths: Empathy, consistency, relational intelligence
Watch-outs: Over-giving, invisibility, martyrdom
⸻
🌾 The Cultivator (Systems Builder)
Turns ideas into something that can last.
* Builds structures, workflows, and processes
* Connects people, resources, and timelines
* Helps movements scale without losing their soul
Strengths: Practical magic, follow-through
Watch-outs: Rigidity, becoming more system than human
⸻
🐝 The Pollinator (Connector / Messenger)
Carries ideas between communities.
* Translates language across groups
* Spreads inspiration, stories, and tools
* Helps movements cross-pollinate
Strengths: Communication, charisma, bridge-building
Watch-outs: Overextension, dilution of message
⸻
🌳 The Canopy (Protector / Elder)
Provides shelter and long view.
* Shields vulnerable folks from harm
* Holds memory, context, and lineage
* Knows when to slow things down
Strengths: Wisdom, protection, stability
Watch-outs: Gatekeeping, resistance to change
⸻
🪵 The Mulch Layer (Rest & Recovery Holder)
Often overlooked but crucial.
* Creates conditions for rest, integration, and pause
* Holds space for grief, joy, and celebration
* Marks endings and transitions
Strengths: Rhythm, attunement, nervous-system care
Watch-outs: Being undervalued or sidelined
⸻
🌧️ The Weather Watcher (Strategist)
Reads the larger conditions.
* Tracks political, cultural, and economic shifts
* Helps movements time their actions
* Knows when to plant, wait, or retreat
Strengths: Foresight, adaptability
Watch-outs: Analysis paralysis, emotional distance
⸻
🪨 The Mycelium (Invisible Networker)
Not flashy, deeply powerful.
* Builds trust quietly behind the scenes
* Shares resources, information, and support
* Connects struggles across distance and difference
Strengths: Resilience, interdependence
Watch-outs: Being unseen, taken for granted
Episode Transcript
Christina: Here’s what I’m noticing for myself. Um, I’m at a very, like, I’m at a very, um, essential point of integration. And for me right now, that means that like the extraneous voices cannot enter me. That’s what I’m feeling a lot. Like I’m, I’m leaving Instagram for a while. Uh, I am not searching for information really, but more that like over and over
I’m hearing the answers are within you. The answers are within you. That is my nature. That’s just me. That’s like the Aries in me, right? But also it’s just me. I don’t need anything else to define that. Um, but I. Yeah, it’s time right now for me to kind of like shut off the noise and, um, work with the intentional spaces that I have cultivated to welcome that noise in.
Like the chosen noise really. What I’m consuming is really, it really matters to me, like in, um, in actual food and hydration and things. All I want is like tea and broth and real food and
it feels like a, um. Like a great clearing and I’m so conscious of what doesn’t serve me and I don’t, um, yeah, I’m like really conscious of what I’m welcoming in. So, uh, that’s where that’s coming from, I think. And you know, the conversations that we’re having on the podcast and the conversations and the Creative Alchemy group and my studio time, like it’s really, that’s kind of like, and family life, that’s kind of all
I have space for right now and I’m just acknowledging that. So, um, I love you and yeah, there’s that. Bye.
Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week’s conversation is a continuation of our series: “The World Is On Fire. What Can I do?” And this week we’re in conversation with our friend and friend of the podcast, Ashley O’Brion. In this conversation, Ashley shared how she’s finding ways to show up in this moment that feel
aligned and accessible and really sweet. As this series continues, I find myself really wanting to just open the door of possibility a little bit wider with each conversation. Giving inspiration, and maybe even permission, for anyone who’s listening to find their own authentic entry point into this moment.
Into greater awareness. Into expanding empathy and compassion beyond the small circle of your family and friends. Redefining what community is one conscious step at a time. So I hope you enjoy.
Christina: All right. So we decided that it would make sense to bring Ashley back today for this episode because Becky and I have been really ruminating on the fact that we are here in a world that is on fire.
There’s a lot of turmoil. A lot of people that we’re talking to in our circles are thinking, what can I do to show up? Is it even enough what I’m doing? And so we have, we’ve invited a couple of people that we love and know from all different walks of life. To come here and talk with us about that exact thing and really wrestle with it.
so Ashley was someone that we thought we would bring back because we already have such a beautiful, solid ground of conversation here. Um, and it landed in her text inbox at the exact time that it was meant to because I think had she received the invitation a week earlier, she might’ve thought, I’m not really sure what I’m doing, but Ashley can speak to this more.
But she’s sort of, um, it sounds, from what I’m hearing from you in our outside conversations, that you’ve, you’ve, um, tapped something that feels really fruitful and like you can put your energy towards something that feels generative and helpful, even if it’s quote unquote small. So take it away.
Ashley: Yes. So.
Um, in this moment, I think what I hear from a lot of people is that everyone is reaching for a way to meet the moment in a way, um, that maybe is outside of our normal ways of operating. And so for me, that that has been watching how other people are showing up, and then leaning on, um, some of those calls, as my doorway to show up.
Um, and one organization that’s local to us in Maine is called Maine Needs, and they’re an organization that is, is really working, um, in real time to, to match immediate needs to, immediate responses. So it’s not, it’s not a general all call usually it’s, it’s like we had a caseworker reach out, um who knows of immigrants that are hiding in place and they are in desperate need of diapers, and that’s a very specific need.
And because of their platform, um, they’re able to, to meet that moment and fill an entire room with boxes of diapers. So the organization has great power, in that way, um, in, in a helpful, connective way. And so that, that was the organization that I had reached out to first to just go in and volunteer because they’re constantly looking for volunteers.
But when I went to sign up in this time, they are booked up on volunteers until May. So, I reached out to the, um, the founder of Maine Needs, who is a friend and asked her could she open up more spots? Is there anything else I could do? Um, and she said something that I’ve heard both of you say, which is we don’t often have to, to warp ourselves into new versions to meet a moment we can use what we already do to meet the moment.
Um, so she suggested. Opening our studio, um, our ceramic studio in Westbrook, and inviting people in to do something. So they, they Maine Needs often, um, we’ll put out calls for kits so you can make art kits for children, um, to have something to do. You can make cleaning kits for people that don’t have enough money to gather cleaning supplies.
You can put together warmth kits for the unhoused. Um, so that was where our, our minds went first. Um, we, we were thinking we would gather some friends together and we would make some kits. Um, but then we, we thought about using what we have in the studio. We have buckets of clay that we foraged from all over the state.
Um, we’ve had these buckets in the studio and we’ve been, had plans to process the clay, and this has been years, like years of collecting buckets and being like, we’re gonna get to that project, we’re gonna get to that project. So we had this thought that if we could process that wild clay that is the land of Maine and shape it into a heart, which is a universal symbol of love.
We could slip it into the pockets of the clothing that’s donated, by Maine Needs. Because Maine Needs was also putting out a call for handwritten notes, to slip into the pockets, um, of, of these pieces of clothing that will be distributed to anyone in need in Maine. And so that’s, that was kind of the, the birth of the idea of making these little hearts that we’re calling pocket hearts made out of Wild Maine clay.
And it serves as kind of like a worry stone or a talisman or, um, like a fidget, to have in, in the pocket of these clothes. And and then we’ll tie handwritten notes to the, to the hearts. So. That whole effort, um, seemed like a small thing that we could do. So we invited some friends into the studio earlier this week to make some hearts, and we were thinking like, maybe we’ll have like a hundred hearts to bring to Maine Needs.
And then we, we thought, well, we could probably have other people shape these hearts, for us. So we’re not spending, you know, like the hours and hours and hours that it takes to, to shape the hearts. Um, but if other people could do this project, it would probably make other people feel like they’re involved.
They can gather, gather their own community, um, and shape, hearts together. And so we just put it out as like a little side. Note on our Instagram post that if you’re interested in a wild clay kit, just send us a message and we’ll get one ready for you. Um, and we had about 70 people reach out.
Becky: Wow.
Ashley: So we spent, we spent some time figuring out how we were going to, um, respond to all of those people.
‘cause that felt so special. Um, and, the people reaching out were from all, all different, all different. Backgrounds. Um, some people were grandparents who wanted to do the activity with their grandchildren. Some people were, school teachers who wanted to have their whole classroom involved.
So they were asking for, you know, 10, 15 kits that they could take in their whole fourth grade class could do it together. And then we had, um, a few businesses say that they wanted to bring it to their staff meeting. So the, the, the way that people were planning on gathering to make these hearts, has ended up being the most touching piece to me because I think the most powerful thing is gathering and being with other human beings in this moment.
Especially if we can be connected in love and in goodness and in trying to figure out ways that we can show up to meet the moment, which is, which is seems to be the people that if you’re going to gather people, those are the people that you’re bringing into, um, into work with. And, and then that’s where more ideas are spread and more conversation, you know, leads to other connections and, and other ideas on how to show up and meet this moment.
So we got very busy this week processing, um, probably like a hundred pounds of wild clay, which, which is no small thing that we have some, photos and video of, my partner Christina processing the clay. So it’s, it’s very manual labor. Um, but it is, it’s so cool ‘cause wild clay and, and the brick clay of Maine is so fascinating to me.
And we’ve been able to share, um share the magic of, you know, the natural world also with people like just showing how the clay itself is blue when it comes out of the ground and then it fires brick red, which is very appropriate for hearts, but
it’s like this magic thing that is a very, like, natural process.
So that is the pocket heart project that, came from a very sincere place. Um, and, and I think that that is the way. When it is so easy and so sincere. It must be palpable because then other people feel it and, wanna contribute and wanna be a part of it. And that has been, um, like a confirmation, I think in, in the project itself.
Like, okay, we’re just gonna do this thing. We just thought it was gonna be this small thing. And it’s, um, it snowballed into something that we did not foresee. Hmm.
Christina: I love everything about this. I love, um, at times when things feel really overwhelming, it can feel like you have to do something really grand. And I love, first of all, your idea to continue to reach out to the one place that you feel aligns with your values. So when Maine Needs had the volunteer list full through May, you didn’t stop focusing on that as a place you believed because Angela is running this incredible business that is, is authentic and is like deep rooted in her heart and has expanded to so many.
So for you to feel aligned with her values and supporting her dreams to reach all of these people in need, you went back and were like, well, is there anything else I can do? And. The simple thing is like, what can you do? You Ashley, with a space in Westbrook with some friends who might wanna get together, um, and make something very simple with their hands.
And then you just sort of look around where you are and find the answer right there. And it’s not, you know, we can tend to want to do these really grandiose gestures, and this is actually turning into a beautiful, grandiose gesture, but it began with such a true morsel of, of the right things. You, with your space with a small group of friends.
Um, and it is, it’s a, it’s, it’s so great. This is like the perfect example of, of what’s possible. Yeah. There’s so much I could say about this. Um, yeah. But it’s beautiful.
Becky: I’m really curious, about your, like, your internal process of, I assume, you know, there was a call to action because you were feeling a certain way, and I’m just curious like how you were feeling before you took action and how that, how your emotions and your mental state and like how your interior world changed, moving through this,
if you feel comfortable or, yeah. No. Interested
in
sharing.
Ashley: I do. I feel like, um, putting it into words, I think that we’re, what, what has been swirling around inside of me is anger, um, and helplessness. And then in my current life circumstance, um, most of my, uh, most of the time that is in my day is not my own time. So I have three kids and our, our kids are in, late elementary school and middle school.
And so much of our time is spent, um, driving from activity to activity. And it feels like I don’t have, I don’t have the time to show up in ways that I think I would show up if I didn’t have those pieces of my time taken up at this moment. So going to a protest, um, or going and, and volunteering somewhere, I think that that’s the way that I would like to show up.
Um. I think that, not to say that it can’t happen because it absolutely can happen, and I was trying to make that happen with, the one organization. Um, but I think it, it like starts to feel, it starts to feel like such a big, um, a big action that that needs to be taken that’s outside of your normal functioning.
And so to figure out what that action is and then to figure out how to have the space in the schedule to, to meet that action that you want to be a part of, both of those things seem scarce for me at the moment. So then it ends up being like, well, donate money, call your senators. Both of which are, are actions that I think are really important.
And I have done those things also. Um, but there’s still a lot of time that I’m sitting. Feeling like, well, what is happening? I don’t know. I don’t know what is happening. I don’t know how I can, be of more service. Um, I don’t know how I can reconcile the anger that’s inside of me in a way, that is, is making a difference.
And I think that that’s the way I’m hearing from friends, that they feel also, they feel like so many things feel out of control in this moment. And we don’t have a lot of guarantee, um, into whether or not the actions that we’re taking are just for ourselves to feel better. Or if they are helping to ripple out change.
And that’s where I think that the gathering with people makes a difference. Yeah. Um, and if it’s your neighbors, if it’s your family, if it’s your, um, you know, your small circle of coworkers, those are the people that you’re interacting on a daily basis with often. And maybe like, that’s good enough.
Maybe, maybe just meeting the moment where you are and offering a neutral activity, which could be writing notes for people, sending them to Maine Needs or, or having an art moment. It doesn’t have to be like something that is actually meeting a, a need from, any organization that’s really putting anything out.
Like you can just gather people to create. And I think that, that, that opens people up to talk in a more vulnerable way about how they’re feeling about what’s going on or, or just even to open up conversation with people who don’t see the same way. Like, can we just talk? Can we just talk about an art project sitting in front of us?
Because I think that that’s, that is the piece that’s missing for the world is, is gathering and connecting.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: There’s also something really beautiful about the tactile nature of what you’re doing. So gathering people together with a particular hands-on mode, it releases your brain from thinking.
Ashley: Yes.
Christina: Right. So it’s, that’s a really lovely thing. Um, and I actually think as you were talking, the project that has naturally been born out of what’s in front of you and your ability to devote certain time and space. Like it checks a lot of boxes for you. You mm-hmm. You get to have a community nurturing space where you’re actually focusing, the word humanity just kept coming over and over as you were talking because you are creating with people.
You are imagining how this token that you create with your own hands from the earth that you stand on, like the clay that your kids literally found and brought you to go gather because they knew of your practice of wild clay foraging. There’s so many beautiful layers of this. Um, so your, with your hands, you’re making these things and, and as you’re making them, I’m sure you are all feeling.
Filled up by the idea of someone you do not know, reaching into a pocket that was gifted generously to them and touching something that another person made with their own hands for the pure reason of relating to each other.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And that is such a powerful message, and I would argue just as powerful if not more powerful than protesting because there are other people who might channel their, their anger and have more flexible schedules to go protest.
And I’m so grateful for all of them for doing that. And what you are doing is so deeply meaningful because it, it’s like a, it’s like a literal, it’s a literal touching, one degree of separation between your thought and another person’s. Receiving of that thought.
Becky: Yeah. Well that’s why I was curious, um, when you started to talk about, the things that you’d really want to do, you want to protest, you want to volunteer with more time.
Um, and this, uh, I was just curious if that, when I hear you talk about this project of the hearts, it feels like so aligned and so authentic. And I’m just gonna ask this question and maybe it’s not a question specifically to you, but maybe it’s to anyone who’s listening who’s questioning this, but I, I feel like we kind of started these conversations because.
A lot of people have a limited imagination of what help looks like and like protest is because it’s so visible, I feel like, is what our imagination goes to, whether it’s actually aligned or not. And again, I’m not, I don’t wanna speak for your experience, but it made me curious if other people might be questioning this of like, is it I can’t do this thing, or there’s a part of me that knows that this isn’t really aligned.
Um, I don’t know that, that’s kind of what I was questioning. And I love this idea of opening up permission of like. Yeah. That, that’s not aligned for me and have that be okay instead of like, what this beautiful project that you ended up in as like, and I’m not saying you would think this, but like, as a consolation prize or like, you know, the thing that I’m doing because I can’t do this better thing, which is protesting, and I, I, Christina, you already said this, and I fully, um, agree, like I have reverence for the people who are out there protesting.
They’re putting their literal lives on the line. And that is such important work. And I’d love to demystify if anyone has an idea that that is the, you know, I don’t want a hierarchy of contributions, you know, so I don’t know if, if that resonates at all with you, but that’s kind of what I was questioning and wanting to surface for anyone else who’s listening.
Ashley: That totally resonates.
Christina: Absolutely. I was gonna say thank you, Becky. That’s a really beautiful, um, thing to shed light on. Yeah,
Ashley: because I, I What are the actions? What are the steps? I think that that’s the, that’s the piece that we see is you, you go out in the street and you march and take a stand and you call your senators and you donate money to, the organizations that are boots on the ground.
Those are the three things that I feel like I know are the ways. Yeah. And then outside of that, uh, I don’t know. I know, I guess just if you know, people that are being individually affected, checking in on them.
Becky: Yeah. Yeah, and I would put, um, like calling your senators, I’d kind of put a separate bucket of just like participating in democracy that my, I will, I’m not gonna talk for anyone else.
I have slacked for most of my adult life. I have not been participating in democracy. So that is something I feel like we can all rise to. But protesting, I feel like, is another box that isn’t accessible or aligned for everyone. And can that be okay? Are there other ways to protest, you know,
Ashley: yes, there’s other ways to protest.
I feel like the way that, um, in the last year I made a change of leaving a corporate job and that felt like a pro, a form of protest for me to step outside of the hustle culture that was not aligning, um, felt very scary. But also it was like my body wasn’t giving me a choice anymore.
Becky: Yeah.
Ashley: I, I just had to leave.
And, and I think that when we start to unplug ourselves from pieces of the society that we are a part of, it opens our eyes to other ways of being that we just did not think were possible because we’re told you will not survive because you’ll not have health insurance. You know? Mm-hmm. Your taxes will kill you.
Um, freelance life is too unpredictable. There’s, there’s a lot of things that stop people, I think, from choosing a life that might be more aligned with what they would want for their themselves.
Becky: I am so glad you raised this and, and not that everyone needs to leave their job, but this idea of like the ways that you unplug or change your relationship with this oppressive, unsustainable, hateful system are ways of protest.
You know, like, and even I, um, I got a message from a friend who, you know, was talking about tr trying to be with this moment and trying to access breath, and it just occurred to me of like the system that we’re in doesn’t want us to be with and be present with what’s happening. We are very much living in a society of distraction and anytime you choose not to be distracted and to really be present with and sit with what’s happening, that is a form of protest and.
That is not just showing up for this moment and then you know, you go off and you’re unchanged. But if you really are able to be present with this moment and let it, to the extent that you are safe enough to feel this, it will change you. Like if you let this moment really change you, I would argue that’s a form of protest.
And those ripples, the way that will ripple out will be generational. Like the way, if you let this moment change you, how is that gonna change the way you raise your kids? How is that gonna change the way you move through the world? And you show up And we talked about in a previous episode that, um, you know.
This isn’t a new moment. It’s not like authoritarianism is new. It’s not like violence in this country is new. Not even violence against protestors like none of this is necessarily new. So it’s not just about this moment, it’s about how can we plant seeds and tend to them and really change the way we orient as a society.
And that is like deep personal work. Um, and I think that because it goes unseen, it doesn’t get the, like, how are you gonna put that on your Instagram stories? You know? So it’s, it can feel like, you know, it’s not fancy or you, you can’t like show someone you’re doing this work, but I that I just want anyone who’s listening, like, if you’re able to really be with this moment and be present and let it start to change, you let it start to.
Allow you to question maybe what you were taught, maybe how you were raised to, to see this country that’s really deep transformational work that will ripple out in ways you will never understand.
Ashley: Well, I was just seeing, um, a graphic with like the highest form of protest and just someone sitting in meditation, you know, sitting, sitting with the moment.
Um,
Becky: just don’t let the wellness community co-opt that graphic, but because they will do it so fast.
Ashley: But like normalizing that and giving that as an option to people who would never think that that was an option or totally. Or that that was under the umbrella of. Um, meeting a difficult moment.
Becky: Totally
Ashley: like that is, that is beautiful because in this, in this moment, not of time across the world, not just this United States of America moment, all of our attention is gobbled up.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: Yep.
Ashley: So taking it back
Christina: mm-hmm.
Ashley: Is protest.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Christina: This is, this is making me think about, um, when we had like all three briefly discussed, before recording this together, Ashley and I both made links to this.
You know how like things come back around in different form, we talk about the spiral all the time here. Mm-hmm. Um, this moment feels so akin to the families being separated at the border. Mm-hmm. To me except worse. Um. Because it’s so close here. But Ashley, you were talking about that too, and like, I don’t know if you can speak to this, but what I’m feeling is I was, I got really caught up in that, um, in that time and I had, um, I was a new mother and it, I, I would catch, I would like listen to NPR all the time and read all the news and just, I just felt so tunneled in, um, and like I can feel it in my body now.
Actually, my heart is starting to be a lot faster because I, it was horrifying to me what was happening. That I like the rage filled my body every day, and I would roll through rage and sadness, unbearable rage and unbearable sadness. And I felt like it was my responsibility to keep up with all of the information to the point where I came home from work.
One day after listening to NPRI drive home and I just, I just fell into Andrew’s arms in this puddle of tears because it was, I could, I had nothing left to offer. And it was a very specific moment when I realized, whoa. I looked around in through my tears and I looked at my child who I could be spending a lot of my energy working to seed another more compassionate world in very small ways.
And that. It’s like a familiar cycle that’s coming back. And the distance between that moment and this moment has allowed me personally a different perspective to like not be swept away in this anger and sadness, but instead to be with it and sit with it and know what is my work to do and what isn’t.
Um, and I don’t know, Ash, do you, are you feeling any of that? ‘cause I remember you saying that it reminds you a lot of, of how you felt then.
Ashley: Yes, absolutely. Um, in that moment, that was one of, I would say that that was a very defining moment in my life because it, it showed this. Um, culture that I had been a part of my family, my church, my, religious upbringing.
It, it cast it in a completely different light and that was so hard, um, to, to be with. And, and what came up for me was anger. Um, surprise at so many people who were foundational in my life, who were teaching ways of love and caring for neighbors and were silent on in that moment. I, I remember I, it’s very like, visceral for me. I was in Texas. That’s where my family is from. So we were down visiting my parents. Um, I had, three children, two, four, and six.
So I was, I was the same as you, Christina, just buried in kids, um, and looking at them as the seeds of the future. And couldn’t, couldn’t believe that we were sitting in a church service where the pastor said not one thing about what was happening. I was in Texas, so there was, Texas is a, is a, has an international airport.
There, there was people being held from coming into the country in those airports and. Texas has a very large I immigrant population, so it felt like it was necessary to say something. I thought I was going to go to that Easter service. I truly, truly, sincerely thought that I was walking in and that the pastor was going to talk about how the congregation could meet the need of the moment.
And, and there was nothing said. And I left so angry, so sad, and went home to my parents’ house and just started sobbing in the kitchen to my parents and my grandmother. And, and the response was, what, what has happened to you? What is wrong? Why are you so upset about this? Um, and it just was a, a new and profound disconnect that had never been there before. And that, that altered my life. Um, I went home to Maine with my three babies, and we created a little project called Little Villagers where we started collecting coats from around the community. It was still, I mean, it was like March. It was still pretty cold. Um, I had no idea where to donate the, the coats that we collected, like I wanted them to go to, to people in need.
I wanted them to go to the immigrant community in Portland. I didn’t know how to, how to find that community or how to connect, so I just started calling around to organizations in, in Portland and um, ended up connecting with the Catholic Charities of Maine in Portland. Um. And just this guy who worked there named Hamud was like, yeah, if you bring us coats that, like, that’s great.
Please, please bring us coats. And so we brought like a pile of like 35 coats that we had picked up from around the community and we, we actually pinned hearts two each coat, um, that said little villagers on it. And the kids went with me. And, and, and that was, that was the same thing that you’re talking about, Christina, like looking at my children and saying, you’re the future.
And you’re going to see that there’s actionable ways to show up for neighbors even if you don’t see those kinds of neighbors around you. Because we live in rural Maine and we’re not in a community with, um, with immigrants. We’re in a very white community. So let’s go find the people who need help. Like, let’s, let’s, that shouldn’t stop us.
Like coming back around. Now, 10 years later, I’m packing up these wild heart kits in my dining room and my kids are helping to get the kits all ready and wanting to do them with their friends. And I feel like, um, my 14-year-old, which is wild that I have a 14-year-old, my 14-year-old, she was like, so, so like people can pick up these kits and like they’re making the hearts and bringing them back to you.
And I was like, yeah. And she’s like, that’s really cool.
Becky: Wow you got it. That’s cool. From a 14-year-old
Ashley: I got. That’s cool. So that was, that that feels great. Like, that feels great that, um, in any way that we can show those that are coming after us. Smallest ways that we can do something. Like if they walk in on me and now I’m going, going to think of you, Becky, if they, like, if I like go into a room and just start meditating and they walk in, I’m going to be like, I’m protesting.
You know? Here I am. Like I need to feel this full moment and this is my, this is the way I can do it because I have the three of you and I can’t leave this house.
Becky: Yeah. Mm-hmm. The phrase that keeps coming up for me as I’m listening to both of you talk about this, you know, this spiral of experience is, um, what we resist persists.
Mm-hmm. And what I’m feeling listening to you is neither one of you resisted that first call to awakening. ‘cause that’s as white people, when we start feeling these, these feelings, especially if it manifests in shock, um. My intuition has really been telling me that’s an invitation for greater awakening because the, this country, it’s not that this is new, you know, but it’s new for us.
And beautiful, you know, that it’s a doorway into greater awakening, so you can resist it, but what you resist persists. And neither I know both of you and neither one of you resisted. You, let it change you. And so coming back around to this next, um, you know, iteration of in your face horror, um, correct me if I’m wrong, but I, I’m hearing anger.
I’m, but I don’t, I’m not hearing the same shock. It sounds like, you know, you’re approaching it with like a greater awareness and a greater, connection to action. I mean, you were connected to action so quickly, Ashley but I think a lot of people do resist because it’s hard to be with this new awakening and to, um, we’re not as white people, we’re not forced to look at this country as a violent country.
You have to push yourself and that can be really destabilizing and that’s why I, I always think of, you know, people tending to your own self in addition to action is really important because if you resist that work, it will persist. And as a country, we have resisted facing our history. And so it keeps persisting.
So if we really want a new country that has its eyes open, I’m not u thinking we’re gonna create utopia. It’s not gonna happen in any of our lives lifetimes. But can we at least create an environment where our eyes are open? Because you can’t change what you can’t see. But seeing hurts, it’s hard. It’s really challenging.
Ashley: Do you know the quote about, um, I think it was George Orwell about when the, the people no longer believed what their eyes were seeing or what their ears were hearing.
Becky: Yep.
Ashley: And so that I think, plays, plays into this. Moment because you’re saying that I have less surprise and I think that, that I, I do have less surprise because I, I feel like actually this is sort of expected.
Christina: Hmm.
Ashley: And I feel that for a lot of people there’s a dei Sensi, desensitization. Desensitization
Becky: mm-hmm.
Ashley: To so much that’s going on.
Becky: Yeah. Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. I was, I, um, when I was working in the studio yesterday, just like with my hands, you know, like it frees up your thoughts, like we were saying about making clay with you guys in the studio.
And I was thinking to Becky about these conversations that we’re having, and just even the fact that we are considering what our roles should be. Is important. It’s just to even be having these conversations is important because I think a lot of people choose to just turn the volume down or desensitize themselves.
Mm-hmm. Um, so at a baseline, just being willing to grapple with these things with other people, is, is worthwhile. ‘cause then you, you’re moving somewhere. You’re moving forward, you’re not deciding to turn everything off or, like Becky always says, stick your head in the sand. You’re choosing to meet what’s in front of you and try to understand it and make sense of it, and find where you belong in that, in that present moment.
And it, yeah, it is not an easy, it is not an easy feeling. Um, one thing that I have done too, in, in realizing that protest is not my way of, um, like actual boots on the ground protesting is not my way of meeting this moment is when friends of mine are protesting instead of trying to explain why I am not there, I just thank them for it.
Becky: Hmm.
Christina: Thank you for doing that because I, earlier I might’ve said, oh, I, I’m, I wish I could come. I’m sorry. I can’t actually because I have three kids and da da. But it’s just like, no, thank you for doing that. I am here doing the things that I need to do to meet this moment, and thank you. That’s been a helpful thing for me.
Becky: Yeah. And it speaks to me of like a groundedness in, you’re not like when, when I hear like the apology and the guilt, it raises my antena of like, there’s something unprocessed. You know, there’s ‘cause when you connect with your, what you can authentically give, I think there’s more of an ease of knowing like this isn’t mine to solve alone and there’s an acceptance that the problems in the world are way above me to fix, but how can I contribute, what I can contribute and know that that’s enough.
This idea of enough, I feel like especially as women, we are in female bodies, we’re like always programmed to feel not enough. Um, and so when I hear that, just thank you. There’s a feeling of enoughness that we are in community together and I’m doing what I can and you’re doing what you can and that’s beautiful.
Ashley: I think it brings up what, what role, what are the roles of activism? And I’ve heard both of you speak with, with a self-awareness and a, and a knowing of how you are and who you are in this moment. Um, and I’ve heard the terminology related to the garden. I’ve heard Christina refer to her role as a gardener, and I’ve heard Becky, I’ve heard you refer to yourself as a composter.
And those are two super beautiful metaphors of how to show up to meet this moment. And I wonder if you’ve thought about other roles.
Becky: Well, I got
Ashley: it. Be,
Becky: I got excited ‘cause in our side chat, you asked the question so beautifully. You were like, wait, what are the other options? Where’d you come up? I love that.
You’re like, um, ‘cause I clumsily, uh, in an interaction had called Ashley a composter and it was not about, first of all, who likes to be told what they are. And I don’t know, but I love that it spurred this whole conversation where you were like, wait, what are the options? And I was like, I don’t know.
Christina and I just made this up as like a way to understand and process our differences as just like a relationship of two. Um,
So I had clumsily called Ashley a composter, which had nothing to do with her. It was like my own reactionary stuff. But it spurred this conversation of like her asking, um, well I don’t know if I’m a composter, what are the options? Which I love. It made me think of my wife actually, ‘cause she always needs to know all the options.
And I was like, I don’t have any options. We were just like trying to find a way relate to, to our each other ‘cause we’re so different. Um, and then Ashley came back with like. This is so not me. ‘cause I’m such the projector with like no energy and you’re like action oriented.
Ashley: Like I’m a manifesting generator and Aquarius, so I Do you not like to be labeled?
Yes.
I need to know what the options are.
Becky: And you have like, you make shit happen. That’s a manifesting generator. Like you make magic so fast. Um, so she came back with like, well here’s, here’s some lists. Here’s a, uh, here’s a list of options. And they were so good. And I don’t know if you wanna explore them or put them out there or if it feels, relevant, but I, I like giving people options.
And I will also note that I’m sure like the activists have been around for a long time. I’m sure someone has thought of this, but hey, we can, I tried actually to look for something existing and I didn’t find anything close to this. So, um. Side note. I also wanted to note that I keep bringing us back to this isn’t new.
Um, not to shame anyone who’s, just awakening to these things now, that’s not my intention at all, is to remind us that we have been here before and there are elders who know how to hold space and get us through really hard times. So that’s why I keep reorienting us, especially as white people, to look to the Black, brown and Indigenous activists.
They know what they’re doing. So that’s why I keep bringing us back to this, is like, we’re not alone. We’re not starting from scratch, even if it feels new to us. So that’s my side note. Coming back to whatever you feel like sharing, Ashley.
Ashley: Um, well, when you had said the term composter when I first heard it, and I don’t remember when you guys we’re talking about roles in that way. But it did remind me of, um, something, I think an interview that I had heard on, on being with Adrian Marie Brown Brown. Is that mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think she talked about composting somebody, somebody who was talking about social activism on, on being talked about composting.
And that had been the first time I’d ever heard of that reference and thought it was so beautiful. Because that does give option to people who are not going to be the protestors in the street, you know, like to wrestle with where we’ve been, and not lose sight of it. And not get rid of it or like erase it, but to, to turn it into the fertile ground for what comes next is beautiful.
And so I wanna know what all the other things could be, and I don’t think that there may. Yes. Maybe there, maybe this is a, a place where we could do more research, but I also think that it could be a moment where we can start to imagine what those roles are or invite other people into, to name some of those rules with us or what resonates for, for themselves.
Because I think we, we all have a connection to the natural world and to gardening. And so I think pulling it into that kind of metaphor, feels very true. And, and like we can, we can understand what those roles could be. For myself, I, um, I did some ideation and with some, with some tools and came to, I think that if I was going to put.
A label on myself that I, that I will self proclaim. I think it would be pollinator. And that has to do with, my background is design and messaging and helping people to define what their message is in order to have it heard by, by others. And I think that that’s where, like I, I, I’m also a responder and I think that graphic designers are often responders because we need the source information to come in for us to, to see it in our mind’s eye of, of how it can look, what it can say, where it can show up.
And I think that that’s, that feels like an, an innate, easy part of how my brain works.
Christina: I wanna see this list. We should put the list in, um, like our substack post or in the notes or something.
Becky: Yeah, it was a good list. It really resonated with me when I read it. Um, and if anyone is listening and knows of an existing list, please share.
Like no one needs to reinvent the wheel, but it really resonated. And there’s, there doesn’t have to be one model, like
Christina: Right.
Becky: This is you being a perfect pollinator because like, language is really important and it’s hard to, I struggle with this, with how to convey a message really concisely that will reach someone and, and light someone up.
And that’s important. We need it.
Ashley: Yeah. Um, I think giving people a framework. It, it allows them to maybe have the knowledge, the self-knowledge, and then then the freedom to say like, thank you for being the protester. I’m not going to go be the protester because I’m over here making the messages to put out into the world.
Or I’m over here rusting with what has been done and trying to figure out where we can plant the new seeds of the future, or I’m already planting the seeds. So, I think it, it gives people clarity. And so I think it’s a, a powerful thing. I’m also somebody who loves, personality tests and, strengths finder and Myers Briggs.
Like, I love all of that stuff. I think, I think I do have uh, and maybe it’s like the, maybe it’s the designer in me. I do have a little bit of a love for systems, but I like to have this system in place so I know what the rules are so I know which ones I can break, you know?
Becky: Mm. Yeah.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: I was actually thinking my late night thought last night was so aligned with this, and it’s probably ‘cause you, um, through this conversation, Ashley brought human design back kind of in my forefront and I was thinking the same thought of like.
Frameworks are so helpful because if you are encountering a new awareness or you’re looking to go inward in a deeper way than you have before, you’re essentially stepping out into the great unknown. And having some kind of framework, especially if you’re able to hold it in the way you just said, Ashley is like, I wanna know, I wanna have some rules so I can know which ones resonate and I wanna keep, and which ones don’t resonate and I wanna break.
You know, is just so helpful because it gives you somewhere to start. And I think we not, I think I know because of the way, way our brains operate, we don’t like the unknown because the unknown’s a little scary, you know?
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Becky: We want things that are known, and if someone else can give you a framework that’s like, at least this has worked for me, it gives you somewhere to start.
Ashley: I think it can be, freeing also from shame too, you know? Mm-hmm. From like, why don’t I wanna go protest? But if you have a greater understanding of yourself, then you don’t have to feel that way.
Becky: Totally. ‘cause then it’s not like there’s this small list of things I can do and that’s not resonating. Then you’re left with, well, does this not resonate?
Or is it I, do I have a block? What’s wrong with me that I can’t get myself to do things? ‘cause we’re all familiar with those things too, right? Where there’s something in our life that we wanna do or we wanna stop doing and there’s resistance. Mm-hmm. And sometimes resistance is telling us this is something to lean into.
This is actually s there’s something here and we need to sit with that resistance and have it tell us what it wants to tell us. But if you have another option of like, it’s not just these two things. You could do all of these other things, maybe you’ll find something that resonates and you’ll see the difference of like, no, I’m not resisting protesting.
I’m noticing it’s not aligned and I’m really drawn to this other role and you know, someone’s telling me this role is valuable. It kind of does dissipate that shame and give you permission to move towards the thing that’s aligned instead of sitting in the shame of resistance and not knowing what, what the resistance wants to tell you.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
I think it was Adrian Marie Brown actually.
Ashley: I think so too,
Christina: because I think yeah, like the ecosystem, the community
Ashley: emergent strategy, right?
Christina: Mm. Maybe,
Ashley: yeah.
Becky: She talks a lot about fractals too, which is really interesting of like how, you know, um, so fractals are used in like sacred geometry and it’s the same spiral in a shell like mirrors, spirals in society and mirrors the spirals of the galaxy.
That’s my understanding of fractals. And in this context it really fits because you think about these, these things you’re, you’re doing on such a small level within your own, even within your own inner world. It’s like a fractal of how you show up in the community and how you show up in the community as a fractal of how we show up as a society, as a country, which is a fractal of how we show up as the planet.
You know? It’s a good way to remember that these little actions that we take, are deeply connected to seeding the world we wanna see
Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Becky: I think that’s so wise and I, I think that you might not be alone in feeling that call. I, I am starting to feel it. I just feel like I’ve spent so much time and energy searching for answers outside of me and it’s exhausting and it doesn’t align. And I am even like, I love shows and movies and even that, I’ve been feeling like this isn’t serving me right now.
Um, so I think it’s really wise. I think, um. Part of why we’re in this situation as a culture is because there’s been so much noise. Like there is so much noise and it’s unsustainable. So Brava my friend, listen to your knowing ‘cause um, it’s not gonna steer you wrong. I love you. I’m really excited that I get to see you tomorrow.
