In this episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time, Becky and Christina catch up after Becky’s retreat at Esalen. We recorded this episode a little earlier in the day, and by the sound of it, you can probably tell Becky is not much of a morning person.
Notes & Links
Esalen Institute: https://www.esalen.org/
To learn more about Human Design, and get your free chart, check out Anne Van de Water, the facilitator of the retreat Becky attended at Esalen: https://annevandewater.com/
Classical Uprising: https://www.classicaluprising.org/
Check out the music of our dear friend from beyond, Hildegard of Bingen…aka Hildi on Spotify.
Episode Transcript
Becky: What a magical day. I just have to say that. Today feels like one of those magical days in general. Like I feel excited and I feel like things are shifting and you have the house to yourself. That's amazing. Um, yeah, today's good. And I am filled up with gratitude for you, my friend, and I can't wait to see what happens.
And then I go to Es, I go to Esalen on Monday. Um, I go into the city on Sunday, and then I leave on Monday. But like, what things are shifting! Feels good. Feels real good.
Welcome to the second episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week we talked about my retreat at Esalen, growing up going to church, thin spaces. We go back to our favorite Christian mystics and we talk about the very interesting origin story of human design. I hope you enjoy.
Christina: Good morning. Good morning. What a great way to start the day. It feels so nice to just be in conversation , with intention and all conversation is intentional, most conversations that I'm having, especially conversations with you. Mm-hmm. And other closer friends where we go deeper. They all have such intention, but it's really nice to be here.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Speaking intentionally together with the intention of sharing it with other people.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I, especially after last week, have have realized how much I need this in my life and how much, , yeah. I'm so grateful for you and for our conversations and , I want to have more of it, you know?
'cause , it fuels me. Hmm. Do you wanna talk about last week? Sure. We can start there.
Christina: I think it's a nice, I think it's a nice thing because I would be ignoring.
The hunger. I have to listen to your week but yeah. Yeah. I'm interested if you're, if you are wanting to share.
Becky: Yeah. I mean, it does feel very alive and we talked about in the beginning we were gonna kind, lean into what's alive.
So Yeah. It feels like it fits.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: so yeah, last week I was at a retreat in Esalen, which is in Big Sur. Um, and for those listeners who don't know what Esalen is, , it's an institute.
It was, uh, kind of the center of the human potential movement. Um, so Alan Watts spent a lot of time there. , a lot of gestalt work kind of, or originated there. Um. And the land itself is particularly special.
So the Esalen, , indigenous tribe have has used that land for like 10,000 years and it has a natural hot spring and it's right overlooking the, uh, Pacific Ocean. So they would go to that land to heal, and when they couldn't heal, they would bury their dead there. So you feel it when you're on that land, like it is palpable.
So I was just really called to be on that land. Uh, I was there 15 years ago and , I think about it all the time. It was like truly transformative.
Christina: Wait, so 15 years ago, did you do another retreat there?
Becky: Yeah, so my grad school, I went to California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco and my program
mm-hmm. Uh, they do a retreat there every year. So it was like my whole class, , 'cause our Professor Richard turn, uh. He lived there for like 10 years and wrote his book there and , has deep ties to the land. , so that was my first introduction.
So it holds so much. Um, God, it's just a really special place. And thinking about launching, , my offering into the world, I just felt called to go back and re-anchor myself in that land. So I took a class on human design, which, um, I, it was kind of like the, the workshop lined up with my schedule and I was kind of called to it.
Um. But it turns out, as with most things, I was in exactly the right place at the right time. It's exactly the right workshop I needed to be in. Um, and my overall takeaway is kind of in line with what we were talking about last time is around safety. Like that place, I mean, you get delicious organic meals fed to you three times a day.
You know, you're bathing in this, , healing water. You're nourished by the Pacific Ocean, but more importantly, everyone who's there holds a sense of safety. You know, no one is judging you. No one cares what you're doing or what you look like. , and you enter into these conversations where you can just feel like I am not being judged right now.
And I think when you have that. , container of safety, so much growth can happen.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And we've talked about this, , you've shown me this, you know, and it was really beautiful to, to experience that. You showed me what safety feels like, right?
Just being in your presence. I could co-regulate my body being in your presence, and so I've learned to regulate my nervous system and now I could go to Lin and I watched how I could be the regulated person in the room, the safety in the room, and allow others to feel what that feels like.
And then teach them like, here's how I'm doing it. , I would be in a share. 'cause we would do like these group shares, you know, which are always so powerful. And I would have these things that wanted to come through me and I would feel my heart racing. I would feel sweaty all over my body. Like I even got an a Apple watch notification that like, your heart rate is 120, but it looks like you're not doing anything.
Um, but I was able to share that and say, you know, I'm feeling this, but luckily I know how to regulate my nervous system, so I'm gonna breathe. I'm going to go slow and I'm going to share this because this is telling me this needs to be shared. Um, there was this other really, um, lovely, , man that I had really deep conversations with.
He was kind of struggling with the same thing of like being seen and um, you know, feeling like. Maybe what you're sharing isn't like I've, I've dealt with a lot of rejection in the past of like feeling like I share something and it just kind of isn't wanted. Mm-hmm. Um, and having that feeling of rejection, which triggers the stress response, it triggers that, , physiological sensations in the body and he was kind of feeling the same thing.
And then in another share later I watched him, he was like, oh, my heart's racing. Like he was sharing that same thing, but he, he still kept going and still shared. Um, and then to take it even further on the last day I had a conversation with him and he was asking me how to like, be there for one of his friends, , who he was feeling like his friend.
. Couldn't, , give love to herself, like she didn't appreciate herself. I was like, look, the best thing you can do is show up. And this is new for you, right? You're nervous about this. You're, you're stretching, you're growing, you're stepping out of your comfort zone. So the best thing you can do is check in with your heart, you know, check in with your nervous system and breathe and , show her safety and show her , what it feels like in the system to have your nervous system get activated.
'cause you're doing something new, but you can do it anyway. So,
Christina: yeah. I'm curious, I'm curious how, um, 'cause you, you've told me this a couple of times where I have shown you safety. Can you illuminate that for me a little bit more? How can one person. In your life, do that? How did I do that? Because I honestly don't know.
Becky: You just did it by being yourself to be honest. Yeah. Right. So it's
Christina: helpful for me to actually understand what it is about my presence and um, you often help me, you hold a mirror to me in a really beautiful way so that I can understand what I have innately mm-hmm.
In myself that can be used to benefit others. So once you help me understand what it is that I unconsciously did, I can try my best to consciously do it more, you
Speaker 4: know?
Becky: Yeah. My understanding at this point is we were designed to co-regulate with others. So I know we kind of touched on this a little bit last time too. Clearly this is a big theme, which mm-hmm.
Because I think a lot of people feel unsafe. And I think to do this work of growth, of looking inward, of, , remembering who you always were of awakening, you have to feel safe. Because it's new, you know? So I think safety might come up a lot. Um, but my understanding is we are designed to co-regulate together.
So the example I'm pretty sure I used last time is like, when you think of a baby and a baby's crying Yeah. And the baby is held close to the body. So we have an energetic field about, you know, three feet around us. That's emanated from the heart, right? Mm-hmm. That is the, your electromagnetic field, similar to the earth, has an electromagnetic magnetic field.
I would, I make the leap that that is your aura. That is your energetic, , field. And so when you, when you hold a baby close, that baby's in your field. So whatever you're feeling, whatever's, you know, moving through your field, there's a, um, there's a resonance.
Mm. Yeah. So whatever
you have in your field, the other person is kind of resonating with that. So, and I just learned recently that, , your nervous system starts to develop in the womb. It's like in the second trimester. So you're already being programmed by the, the pregnant, person's nervous system that's being, you know, programmed in, into you.
So
I get triggered by, I used to, or no, I, I some, and sometimes still do get triggered by being seen because I didn't. Necessarily feel very seen or heard when I was a child. And a lot of this stuff is programmed when you're very young, right? So for me to be seen now is new and novel to my nervous system. So my brain interprets that as like, this is new, this is unfamiliar territory, this is scary.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so regulation is like, okay, breathe. I can let this move through me instead of it getting stuck. 'cause a lot of times we interpret those sensations, those fear responses as a threat, and then we get stuck in a story.
So bringing it back to you specifically. Um, I feel very seen by you. You know, you, you see people very clearly, and I think that comes from you feeling safe and you were seen as a child. So it feels very natural to you to be very present. I also think you can't really see someone if you're not present.
That's a good point. Yeah. Um, so here are you beautiful being of Christina who's seeing me very present and my nervous system is like, danger, danger, danger. But my more advanced brain is like, no, this is what I want. Right? So I just had to learn. And at first it wasn't necessarily conscious.
I mean, I had a meditation practice and you know, I had had experiences like going to Esalen 15 years ago of like, this is what it feels like to feel deeply seen. But I was kind of out a practice when I met you. I'd kind of fallen out of a lot of my practices. Um, so honestly, yeah, just being around you and being seen and being around someone who's very present.
Christina: That's so nice. As you're talking about that, it's reminding me of all of these different people in my life, true long-term friendships where there has been a moment in many of them. Where they sort of decide to consciously take down the walls that they put up for other people. And one person, one very close friend even told me, Christina, I feel like you see through me.
I don't know what to do. And, and I think that felt really confronting to this person. And I was just like, all I'm doing, I'm just being your friend. I'm just accepting you for who you are and not putting my stuff on you. And I, I'm sorry if that's difficult. And it's funny because I think that most people, um, don't receive this type of.
Presence and generosity of spirit perhaps. And also, um, a willingness to engage in, in difficult realness, you know? Yeah. My parents gave me that gift because, , uh, yeah, I never felt like I couldn't be forthcoming with what was alive in me and what was honest, even if it felt like it disagreed with them.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Um, so yeah, and it also from my perspective, sometimes confounds me that people just can't all be this raw because it's just, it's not a hard thing for me to do. And sometimes I might walk around and think. And be able to see all of these masks and walls that people are wearing. And I just wonder why not just take them off?
It's so easy, but it's not so easy. It's scary. Yeah. It's so scary. It's so
Becky: scary. The more I do this work, the more I realize you can't logic your way around it.
You have to practice it. You have to practice teaching your body in little doses that feel safe. Mm-hmm. Um. That we can do this. And that's why cold plunging was such a powerful practice for me personally. Mm-hmm. Because I'm, I was literally teaching my body like I can be in discomfort. Mm-hmm. Like you gasp for air.
And then you breathe and you teach your body.
Like, no, we're not gonna die. We're fine. You know, and you teach your body over and over and over again, and then when the stress of being deeply seen comes up, you're like, no, I can breathe and this is amazing. I can be loved and I can, , feel seen and I can, I can be present. You know, I don't have to, um, go to the future and anticipate what I'm gonna say next because I'm so nervous about silence, you know?
Or like, I'm so scared of what you're gonna think of me. So I'm gonna go to the future and I'm gonna rehearse all these things I'm gonna say instead of just being present. Because when I'm doing that, I've just missed everything you've said, you know? Mm-hmm. And then you don't have reciprocity and the other person feels it.
Christina: Oh yeah. Very much so. isn't it funny how when you get to this beautiful early midlife, you have so much clarity because all of these things that you've been practicing to save yourself, all of a sudden you're just ready to let them fall away and really show up as who you've always come here to be.
And for me, watching a world of people who had all of these boundaries and masks and walls set up for themselves to keep them safe, keep them safe, you know, what they told themselves would be safe. Um, that was so confounding to me. And so for a while I would sort of try to figure out maybe I need to do that.
Do I need to do that a little bit? It kind of goes back to, to maybe me feeling like I couldn't actually be as bright as I am.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Because. It wasn't something that I saw. And we are social creatures, right? Yeah. So if I, even as someone who feels extremely grounded in myself, I still couldn't recognize anybody else who was really like me.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: And so I thought, oh, maybe actually it's more hurtful for people if I shine as brightly as possible. It's such a backwards thought, but it really feels like that was, that was what? That was what I thought, that I might actually do harm to others by being bright and different.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: That's why I ask you in this situation to help me understand how I helped you find safety in your nervous system, because yeah, that gives my authentic expression so much more power.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Because anytime that I have consciously reached out to someone that I knew was hurting, and I've just faced their darkest parts mm-hmm. With my full self generously, it's always the most beautiful response ever. Mm-hmm. Because I think when we're wearing masks all the time and thinking about what we're gonna say next in the conversation, we really, you're right, we really aren't present.
Mm-hmm. And if I can be present in anything you are offering me in this moment
Becky: mm-hmm.
Christina: That's what I can do.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Because if you say something really scary and dark and vulnerable, I'm still here in the same Christina as if you're saying something really joyful.
Becky: Yep.
Christina: Yeah. And that's what my parents always did with, with my sisters and I, and whew, I am learning more and more every day that that is a real superpower.
Becky: It really is. Because then you're free. Mm-hmm. Because then no matter what life presents you, whether in, you know, you're the people you care about in their life and you're able to be present for them or whatever comes in your life, like, you are able to face that and be with that yeah. With your full presence.
And when you're fully present, you're also making better choices. You know, you're not making choices from like a fear response.
Christina: So I wonder also if people know what human design is, because if I didn't know you, I would not, so I wonder if it makes sense to talk, like, , what is human design?
Yeah. I It doesn't it come, isn't it a combination of, , astrology and like ancient eastern wisdom from the etching?
Becky: Yes. It's, um, I get a little, little squirmy around the origin story. Um. So let's all hold this lightly. Um, you know, use the tools that work for you and resonate.
You don't have to buy into the whole story of it. Okay. Let's just start there. Okay. So, um, it was channeled, , by a man, um, I forget his name. , he had this experience where he like entered into his house and there was this blinding light and his dog passed out and just was unconscious for like eight days.
And then he would hear this voice. Apparently it was like this voice of a. Like chain smoking, 80-year-old woman that was like coming to him and wanting to speak to him. And , when he denied listening to her, he was in incredible pain. And when he finally listened to her, um, I don't think I'm doing much for human design here.
I should have probably skipped the origin story, but whatever. It's kind of fun. Um, so anyway, channeled it for eight days, wrote down this whole technology around, , um, essentially how to understand ourselves is what it is, and it a new way of understanding ourselves. And yeah, it's kind of a synthesis or a combining of, Western astrology, the Vedic astrologies, the ing, um, the Kabbalah and the Tree of Life, what we know of quantum physics.
I think that's all. . So he like this founder who ended up changing his name to like raw hoo hoo hoo or raw. I don't mean disrespect for anyone who like loves this origin story. If it works for you, use it. Um, I just try and hold it really lightly this is the perspective I was taking \ to keep me in healthy skepticism and not in mocking.
When I was in this class and she was telling us this origin story, um, all of our major religions were technically channeled. So like, what's the difference? The difference is time, right? And how many people follow it. That's really the only difference. , so yeah, keep an open mind.
Things can change. We can get new down downloads, new channels. So I had been exposed to human design before, so this was like deepening my knowledge of it, and I find it really, really helpful. So it's based on your date of birth, um, time. You have to know date of birth, time and location. And then it will give you this chart. It's very complex.
You can go deep, it can tell you everything about every aspect of your life, but really it's like the top three things that you would learn from human design is your type. Your strategy and your authority. So my type is I'm a projector, which projectors are meant to be guides and, uh, yeah, that tracks okay.
Check, um, projectors don't have access to consistent energy, yeah. Check. I need my rest, you know? Um, whereas you are a generator, mm-hmm. Yeah. So you have access to all like generators and manifesting generators run the world. Mm-hmm. Because you have just so much energy, you're like the engine of the world, but you need the projectors to help guide you because projectors can sense when.
Others aren't using their energy efficiently. 'cause we are experts at it. I am an expert at using my energy efficiently. I can get more done in an hour than most people can get done in three days. Um, and then I rest for the rest of those three days. But I felt like, I really felt it, like, it was interesting because as each person from this group was departing on the last day of the, the retreat, I felt in my body, every generator leave.
'cause I was the only projector. So I was surrounded by all this generator energy and I was like, I felt them leaving. I felt like I had been feeding off their energy 'cause a projector. So we have guidance, we have wisdom, but we have to be invited. So that's your strategy. My strategy is to be invited,.
Um, and when I'm invited, , I get energy. That's how I get my energy and that's where the rejection came from. In, in retrospect of like all these times , I saw something and I tried to tell the person, but they didn't ask me, they didn't invite me. So I was telling them something that , they weren't wanting and I felt rejected.
So learning that, you know, he helps me to understand when I should give advice and when I shouldn't. So that's what I like about human design is it's very practical and you can play with it on your own and you can experiment. And there's something about just like having something outside of yourself telling me this is the way you're designed and it's resonating with how I feel.
So it's it, it for me gives me so much permission to just be myself, be this authentic self that I feel, so the authority is still coming from me saying, this resonates and this is a blueprint that sounds like me, but it gives you language and it gives you, you know, a framework to kind of play within.
Christina: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it also reminds me that, once you feel like you are stepping into living really authentically, a lot of times, for me anyway, once I just really embraced myself fully, this sort of spotted dotted lit path. Back to like the beginning of Christina illuminated in my brain and all of these different things, like all of these things that I was doing in high school, like I was listening to 1930s, jazz and writing plays when my friends were at parties, that was not normal, you know?
Or different things. Different things like this. All these little dotted lines, things that I, that I gleaned from certain books that no one else tended towards. Mm-hmm. Phrases that I recall. All of these things, you could get this information from anywhere, movies that you watch, things that you really love.
Mm-hmm. All of a sudden it starts to weave into this beautiful tapestry that is you.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And your only job is to accept that and step into it fully.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And it sounds so simple because it's so simple. Um,
Becky: it is so simple. If you give yourself permission or like, 'cause a lot of people are indoctrinated into this is the way, you know, through, I know, through religion, through, you know, social conditioning.
Um, so it's very simple once you strip away what's getting in the way. Oh, very much so. Mm-hmm. Yes. And you and I, I feel like we're very blessed in that I had zero indoctrination into any religion. And from what I've heard from, from you, you had religion, you had church, but it was held in a very different way.
I don't know if you wanna speak to like what your experience was.
Christina: Yeah, yeah, sure. My parents both grew up going to church. My mom grew up in a family of nine, so they were Catholic and they, um, she grew up going to church every Sunday. And my father grew up Episcopalian Episcopal. I don't actually know which one's correct.
I've heard them say both Episcopal, they went to an Episcopal church and then when they got married, my mom did whatever you have to do to like, say bye to Catholicism and hello to Episcopal Alienness. I think that's all you have to do. Hello?
So then we went to Episcopal churches and I remember hating the routine of having to do that. We also moved a lot growing up. And one thing that they would do, because this is what they had in their childhoods, was find a church as a community.
Mm-hmm. And so talking to them now as an adult, they said that sometimes they would go to these churches, this is how cool my parents are. They would go to these churches and instead of just saying, okay, this checks the box of an Episcopal church, that's what we believe, we're gonna go there, they would walk in, check the vibe.
If it didn't align with who they were, they would find something else. Yes. And that's how we ended up at a Unity Church, which I don't know if that's actually. Unitarian Universalists, or I, I think it's actually different. It was called Unity. Um, I was in, I was in a youth group.
It was when I was in, um, middle school into high school. And we would do things like go on youth retreats and do eating meditations where we would eat as slowly as possible and like feel the sensations in our body and like really check in into ourselves. And, um, a lot of singing, which was always my favorite part of church.
They did meditations in, , the services. So I had a very varied experience with religions. I also, you know, I was like, um, when we went to Episcopal churches, I remember . Snuffing candles out on the altars and having to stand quietly. I loved Snuffing the candles. That was like my favorite part.
Snuffing the candles and singing, which really tracks still. Yeah. But, uh, um, it felt sort of just more like a routine that we did and I hated having to do it until we went to Unity, which felt like a much more generous place. And meditating always felt more like a home for me than, than being told what to pray and how to pray.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: Um, and yeah. , and then eventually we got to choose to attend or not. I chose not to mostly just 'cause I was in school and wanted the time out of school. Mm-hmm. I think. But I, you know, at 39 now, I've come home to a lot of these age old practices, , on my own and. I think I've been living a life of prayer without calling it that for a really long time.
Becky: Yeah. And
Christina: for me, that looks like being in my garden.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Um, I listened to an on being podcast with a, I think he was a Catholic priest, Eugene something or other was his name. And he talked about how he, he prays so often, oftentimes he doesn't even realize he's praying, and that's when he finds success in it.
Mm-hmm. And that made me tear up when he said that, because I know exactly what he means.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Um, so yeah, that was, I wouldn't say that I was really heavily indoctrinated, but I certainly was made to go to places and listen. But I was sort of like off in my own world most of the time anyway.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: And I was allowed to be.
Becky: Mm-hmm. And I think I feel called to make it clear that I am not anti-religion. I think it has such a beautiful, it can have such a beautiful place. , and I think it's really sad the way it's been manipulated and, um, used for power because ,
it's hard to find community. So religion has, or the church is an important, um, facet of being social creatures, like you mentioned before.
Yeah,
it's just, you have to find the right one. And you have to listen to yourself and you have to do what your parents did. What's the vibe like? Check the vibe first if it doesn't the vibe. Yeah. And trust your, that's trusting yourself. I think that is the shift that I hope we're moving into. And I see evidence that we are is shifting away from there is an authority outside of yourself.
Yes. To you are the authority. And that human design does, uh, promote that. It's very much in alignment with that.
That is the whole point is you are designed this specific way and you are the authority, even if society is telling you otherwise, like the conditioning gets in the way of you living how you were designed. And that conditioning is not real. It's, well, I don't wanna say that it feels very real, but it doesn't have authority over you or it doesn't need to.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's exactly why it never really landed to me, church, never really felt like a home to me. 'cause I didn't, I didn't really understand why everyone would be thinking that what this one person said
was what we should all believe.
Becky: Hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I. I mean, we, we are wired for belonging. So we, , are desperate to like, find a common language and a, you know, something to make us feel that like we belonged. And I love the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was rad. I mean, for sure the more I return back
Christina: to Jesus, I'm like, yeah, yeah.
I want to live as like, you know, I hear, I hear people who in my, in my circle, who are very, um, into Jesus. Mm-hmm. You know, walking the path of, um, being in service of
Becky: mm-hmm.
Christina: Jesus. Mm-hmm. And letting him, the way that oftentimes these people will explain it is letting him. Tell them what to do. Like they are a servant of Jesus.
And I didn't really, I didn't like that personally. And now I also, I can reframe it to myself and say like, live as if you are Jesus.
Becky: Mm.
Christina: Yeah. Live with that compassionate heart where you believe that everyone is equal, everyone is deserving of the same life and to care for all beings in that way.
And so to when I frame it like that, then it makes sense to me.
Becky: Yeah. And there is a, um.
There are plenty of people who understand the teachings of Christianity as it's Christ consciousness.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The whole Christ consciousness thing, I think naturally turns back to Hildegard von Bingham. because. , I think Matthew Fox, he talks about a cosmic Christ. And I, and I don't know if that's the same as Christ Consciousness, maybe it, it, the Venn diagram overlaps in a very big way there. But, you know, Hildegard von Bingham was this Christian mystic of the 11th century.
And I talked about this before on our first episode, but she's been really coming to me in a big way I'm in. Hildegard
Becky: has entered the chat.
Christina: I love it. Hildegard has entered the chat.
She arrived and this is coming from Christina, who is not necessarily like really hunky dory about western Christianity. So for her to kind of pop into my consciousness was, I love that you're speaking yourself in the third person now. I'm just trying to frame it, it was strange. It was strange for this.
Yeah.
Becky: Um, it's out of character for you. Very out character or past, past Christina.
Christina: Yeah, but current Christina was like, Hey, Hildy, hey, what do you have to say to me? What do you have
to teach me?
And she was so loud about it that I kind of had no, that hildy,
She, yeah.
And, and bright. And I was like, I'm just observing this experience and I will not try to make meaning of it. I'm gonna approach this with a curious heart. And essentially I was in the studio where I am sitting right now. Uh, very short synopsis of this is we have an old farmhouse, took down a very old barn and erected a new one that I'm sitting in.
And it's my dream space and it's also turns out my thin space. And people come in and feel the thinness of this space.
Becky: Can you speak more about what a thin space is, or do you think it would derail? Yeah,
Christina: no, it's okay. A thin space is something that my very Christian sister taught me. Mm. So again, things are overlapping in a beautiful way.
Mm-hmm. And a thin space is, I would describe it as a space where the, , veil between what is material and what is other worldly, heavenly universal is very thin.
So
I feel connected to all things in a way that, um, I never have. And it always happens when I'm in here.
Becky: Mm.
Christina: And other people have felt it.
One person walked through and said, I don't know whether I should sing or whisper.
Becky: Yeah. And
Christina: that has been a way that I could also describe a thin, a thinness. Um, so I'm in here on this very remarkable day where I didn't have much in here yet. I hadn't fully moved in and I decided to receive slow time.
Becky: Hmm. In
Christina: a way that my whole life I think I'd been wanting to, or I should say my whole adult life, I'd been wanting to, but you know, you need to be busy, busy, busy. And I thought, no, I, I have, I have this beautiful room and the light moves throughout the day and that is on purpose. All these windows and the light moves in one, in the springtime, which is when I was in here at this time last year, moves from the ceiling to the floor.
And I sat down in front of it and I watched it. Mm-hmm. And I don't know how I had found Hildegard von Bing's music, but I did. And I listened to it while doing that.
Hmm.
So no clue how she arrived into my ears in that way, but I found her somehow. And it was, it was, it felt, it felt like I made my own church in a way.
Hmm. Yeah. And her music was so resonant. And then, um, I listened to her for like the, the weeks following. And that whole couple of hours where I gave myself the time to just watch this light move down the wall felt transformative and transcendent at the same time. And her soundtrack was so perfect for it.
And then I have a friend who is a conductor who brings classical music to the everyday person here in Maine. And her name is Emily Isaacson and her company is called Classical Uprising. And they do a lot of different performances that try to bring classical music to the people like, like it did at the time that it was really coming about.
So it wasn't all these big music calls where you had to buy tickets and go, it was, it was like you could go to a salon where you would go into a Duke's parlor after a fancy dinner and the musicians would be on the ground that you were standing on and you'd be drinking beer together and you'd hear a trio performing.
And she emailed me out of the blue, did not know I'd been watching light and listening to Hildegard von Bing and her email said, Hey. I wondered, we have this small trio of singers who perform Hildegard Bon Bacon's music, and I thought that it might be really beautiful to do it in your studio. Would you ever want that?
And I was just like, oh, hold on. Let me pick my jaw off the floor. This is, I, I had like full body chills. And so that alone felt incredible. And Hildegard was like, Christina, I gotta come to your thin space again. But this time through the voices of three people mm-hmm. And we, we decided to build these curved walls on one side of the room for the purpose of having two distinct spaces in one room.
And also for the purposes of moving sound. Because I'm an artist. Yes. But music and sound is integral to my practice and my way of being. And I always thought it would be really lovely to have performances in here and. So I said, yes, please come over tomorrow. And she did. And we talked about what this would look like and the whole idea was that my work would be suspended in the space while we invited a small group of people to come and hear these three singers, sing Hildegard von Bing's work while projecting her illuminations.
So her, her artwork, her visions of the living light, , on the wall. So the night after Emily came, I was going on like a little two night retreat in a cabin in the woods that I do often throughout the year for my own quiet and contemplation. And I decided to sort of sit with that. Emily had just left.
It felt like something I really wanted to do. I was just like, okay, I'm gonna go. And I, I didn't answer, I didn't rush answer and I just went and sat with it. And I got to this cabin and one of the first things I did was sit on the couch and meditate. And I woke up, came back into the room with the sound of rain on the roof.
Mm.
And a text from my mother-in-law who was like, I don't know why, but this video really just reminded me of you. And it was this whole video of Hildegard von Benin's music.
Becky: Oh my God.
Christina: And I was like, yeah, totally. And then I said, wait, did I not tell you about Hildegard Fond Pink? And she was like, no, what are you talking about?
So I'd never spoken her name to my mother-in-law. She just saw this thing about a woman who wrote these incredibly haunting, sort of angelic pieces of music that were sung by women. She was this, uh, like natural path writer. Um, she wrote plays and had visions of the Living Light and artists. She was just this Jill of all trades, you know?
Mm-hmm. And I think that was maybe why my mother-in-law was reminded of her and sent it to me. So then I, I was like, I hear, I hear you loud and clear, Hildy, you gotta come into my studio. So then we did the performance here. Um, I kept reading more about her and the more that I read about her, the more aligned it felt.
And there was even the final time, the most recent time was when I was in a window seat in a plane. And I was listening to a podcast about her after listening to a lot of her music that this was shortly after the performance in here. And I looked out and they were talking about her visions of the living light, which one could argue I also have.
And I looked out and there was this rainbow burst of light at the end of the wing tip.
Mm.
And I, again, like these things are so powerful when they happen, my whole body is energized and I get like full body tingles and my eyes well up with tears and Mm. She's, she is with me for sure. And actually, I was actually with a friend whose husband is a pilot and I showed him this picture and I was like, you must see this all the time, right?
Mm-hmm. And he said, no. Oh, ugh. So I wasn't even trying necessarily to disprove the magic of this experience. But when I looked out of the window and I'm always looking out of windows and airplanes and I saw this thing, I really felt her here.
Hmm.
Um, and I think she's sort of just hanging out. Maybe she's been around this whole time for me, just waiting for me to hear her.
I don't know. But I'm definitely on the same frequency now as Hildegard von Bing, and she is a helpful voice in my ears.
Yeah.
A
Becky: guide. Does she feel like your guide,
Christina: I wonder, I wonder a little bit if that's what she is and if,
Becky: well, does it feel like that to you? Like what does it feel like to you?
Christina: Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good question because I hear people talk about their guides. I don't know who my guides are, but it, I do, I do pretty effortlessly find an illuminated path backwards that she probably was a part of. So I think that's probably what she is. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I think about the reiki experience I had where the whole room filled with light and it was coming from me.
And that was the moment I realized my work here is to be a beacon and this vibrant person.
Mm-hmm.
And I wonder if Hildegard was the one who like gave me that big nudge, you know? And she knew. Yeah. I don't know, but she is, um, we are in conversation. Yeah. And I think we are cut from the same cloth for sure.
Mm-hmm.
And she had a very. Loud voice at a time when people weren't listening to women.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: And she also was deeply in touch with the natural world.
Mm-hmm.
Despite so many things going against her in, in that way.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky: So the first thing I wanted to say was, I really appreciate, , how you hold things like this and it resonates with me. So like, even asking you the question of is she or guide, you know, I see this like hesitation because there are a lot of people who hold things like spirit guides or,
angels. And they, they hold them in a very, like, solid, concrete way. And it is hard being human. Whatever you need to do to get through the day is yeah, fine by me. For my own life. I have a resistance to that. And I like to hold things. Anything that's in the space of the unknown, I like to hold lightly.
And like, this works for me. This is the language that resonates. Everything we're trying to talk about in this podcast is beyond language.
Mm-hmm.
And so holding it very lightly and using the best language you can, it, it feels very open and welcoming.
Christina: Yeah. And I also, um, I think for me it's the same reason that I never had the strong urge to call my deep inner knowing something else because it's something that I know.
Mm-hmm. And that's all that I need to realize about it, I think. Yeah. And yes, I can say with certainty that Hildegard v Dinkin and I are in conversation even though she's long gone, but I don't feel the need to make her any more massive than that, you know, or give her, um. Yeah. I find that I, well, authority
Becky: is coming up for me. It's like you're not giving away your authority to her and like saying she is this entity outside of yourself. You know, I think some might point to, you know, , were you her in a past life or like, you know, is, and I,
this is where it gets really hard to talk about, but like the non-material, this is my perspective, people listening, try it on. If it doesn't fit, throw it away.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: The non-material world for me is a, we'll call it a realm. Um, although it's out of space and time so realm is the best language I have. I don't know where it, you know, where does non-space non-time exist?
I don't know. But in this realm, we'll call it, there is no separation. So. Right. You are hilde you are, I'm gonna call her Hilde. Yeah. You and Hilde are one. So are you accessing hilde or are you accessing a part of you that is connected to the one where there is no separation and she's just coming through in , that form?
Because that individual being of Hilde, when, when she was on planet Earth left a. Left an imprint that can give you language so that those parts of you can speak to you. I don't know. Yeah. Like that's kind of how I try and hold it, is like, 'cause then your authority stays within you.
Christina: Yes,
Becky: I am always looking for practices and languages that keep me in this deep knowing that I have, that the separation between me and everything else is an illusion. So how can I stay in that energy of , non-duality, non-separation? ,
Christina: yeah. I, , this is the same, the same reason that I never really identified with formal church.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Um, I have always felt an extremely distinct center in myself.
And that was something that I had to, um, battle as selfishness. I worried as like a younger person that that was selfishness.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And it isn't what it is, is a center that I am at home in. And I didn't see many other examples of that. So I think I, I always confounded me, but. I think the way that you describe it feels really right in the way that I also feel it.
Um, yeah, because I don't think she has authority over me. I just, I'm, I just feel like I'm kind of hanging out with her a little bit and mm-hmm. And, and maybe I was her, maybe she, we are me, you know? I don't know. , when you also talked, what that time that you came out of the sauna and had that whole like thing that you channeled through, you talked about living as mystery. Oh, living as mystery was like a very potent message. And so I think. By becoming whole, we are remembering how to live as mystery.
Becky: Mm.
Christina: And that kept coming up for me. Like I keep feeling like the immensity of realizing that we are to become the mystery to rere. Remember how to live as mystery and not as certainty. And it's what cold plunging has done. It's what twins have offered me.
It's what my sister Lauren does with Jesus. She is just always ready to pivot because this is all we know is that there's always change.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina's suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Becky: So this ended up being the message that I had to share with you and I love you. I can't feel my fingers anymore because I don't have gloves on. Um, but I love you so much and I love the miracles of life, and I love my design highs and lows alike.
