WHY TEACH FOUR FINGERED BRAKING?
Guest: David Weed, currently an MSF-certified RiderCoach and RiderCoach trainer and formerly the lead technical specialist for the Washington State Motorcycle Program.
Episode Summary:Join us for a fascinating chat with David Weed, a certified RiderCoach and instructor trainer with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). We tackle the contentious issue of four-finger braking in motorcycling. Listen as David demystifies the myth of four-finger braking, highlighting its practicality, effectiveness, and role in the MSF curriculum. From his insights, you'll understand that while the MSF doesn't prescribe a specific number of fingers for braking, it is essential for riders to have the freedom to experiment and find the method that works best for them.
David also brings to light the importance of effective communication in motorcycle training. We engage in an enlightening discussion about the necessity for instructors to be clear in their teachings. David underlines the significance of questioning our own beliefs and keeping abreast with the latest guidance as instructors, which makes for an intriguing listen.
Finally, we venture into the realm of motorcycle safety and strategic thinking. Bret and David emphasizes the need for riders to make decisions based on their own experience and understanding of the motorcycle's response, rather than strictly adhering to instructions. In addition, we discuss the mental aspects of riding, providing insights that can help improve your riding experience. So tune in and be part of this enlightening conversation. And remember, our podcast doesn't have any advertisements or sponsors - we're all about sharing knowledge and engaging in discussion.
Related Video: Does MSF Teach Four Finger Braking?
0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs and today my guest is David Weed, a fantastic rider and trainer. We're going to be discussing four fingered braking: When you should use it, if you should use it… if this is something that is just a myth in riding or if this is the standard. We're going to talk about strategies, how to improve as a rider or a trainer and just dive into some of the history and background of this particular topic. So, let's get started. Well, David, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit about yourself. Who are you?0:00:51 - David WeedMy name is David Weed. I am currently a RiderCoach and RiderCoach Trainer certified with MSF. I've been riding since about 2010, and I ride a fair amount of miles. I still feel kind of like I'm a beginner, to be honest, but I probably ride 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year; teach a lot of classes and then I was the Lead Technical Specialist for the state's motorcycle safety program in Washington for the Department of Licensing and led that program for about five or six years and currently, as I said, I am a RiderCoach Trainer with MSF.0:01:37 - Bret TkacsAnd for those of you who are listening, just to let you know that David isn’t just a RiderCoach Trainer. We've had a relationship - professional relationship, in the past and worked together in Washington State and in other avenues. Keep in mind, David is just talking from his point of view, from his perspective. He is not representing the MSF, or the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, and to best that, I've also spent a lot of time talking to those in other organizations, including Dr. Ray Ochs, who wrote the curricula that David teaches other instructors to teach, and the curricula that he teaches. So I'm actually kind of a step ahead.But, with that said, it's always fun to throw somebody under the bus as we get started. So here we go, David. I read all the time - comments and I hear instructors say, and I see things written. In fact, I have been on websites: Arizona has one of the schools there that put this on their website and they quote MSF and they say “we teach four fingered braking because that's what MSF teaches”. What's the lowdown on this four fingered braking thing? Because I hear it all the time.0:02:50 - David WeedYou know, Bret, I've heard it a lot too. I heard it when I first learned to ride through the MSF program. I learned it in conversations with other instructors and it comes up pretty consistently in my work and training and supporting new and current instructors.One of the challenges that I give Instructor Candidates when they're first learning to be instructors is to go through the MSF curriculum and find where it's written that four fingers must be used on the brake.And the interesting thing is, as you may well have imagined, and I'm sure already know… that nowhere in the curriculum is it written that four fingers must be used on the brake, and so it presents a good learning moment to help instructors think about - what is it that we're really teaching our students and what is it that we really want them to come out of our training with? And in my opinion, and this is my opinion of course, it's the ability for new riders or experienced riders to make choices… and to make choices based on the feedback of the motorcycle. So one of the things that I think happens a lot in motorcycle training is because it's usually folks that are very passionate and love what they're doing and want to make a positive difference and keep students safe, and all that… is that sometimes it's easy to get on to do it “The Way” versus teaching “A Way”.0:04:28 - Bret TkacsWell, let me dig back for a second. I'm going to cause a pause there and, for those listening, I've been a… was a certified MSF instructor in most all the curricula that they offered. I was never a trainer for MSF and I started that back in the mid late 90s. So I was certified for a little over 20… 20 some years. I think it was 25 years when I actually let it lapse. But you made a mention of… well, there's no place in the curriculum where it says you must use four fingers. Have you found any place that references the number of fingers to use at all? You're a Chief, so I would suspect you would be very well versed in the current curricula, which is the BRC or the Basic RiderCourse. Obviously there were multiple curriculums before that, but it… does it say anything about fingers… that you know of?0:05:21 - David WeedTo my knowledge, no, actually it doesn't say anything about the number of fingers. And when you give an arbitrary requirement like that, it doesn't take into account people's experience level. It doesn't take into account people's physical stature. You know, when students are riding a training bike, usually a little bit more basic on the food chain level of motorcycle, oftentimes it does not have adjustable controls. Oftentimes the controls may or may not have seen a little bit of love over the years and there are people who can't physically put four fingers on that front brake. So then if you have an instructor hollering at you constantly to put all four fingers on the brake, that actually might degrade someone's braking performance. So my take on it is, encourage students to explore different options. Try four fingers, try three fingers, try two fingers. Who cares? You know what, if you get the job done, guess what - you're doing it right.0:06:26 - Bret TkacsI spoke to Dr. Ray Ochs, who is the person in charge of the curricula that you teach - the BRC - and that's about when he came in. So I was actually trained on the previous curriculum. It was called the MRC:RSS, so the Motorcycle RiderCourse: Riding and Street Skills, and when I asked Ray Ochs the question, his answer was far shorter and more direct than even yours is. And when I said, hey, Ray Ochs, what is the status of four fingered braking with MSF? What's the official on this? He goes, we don't have one. It doesn't exist… we don't… you know, you can use four, you can use two… that, we don't… that's not our place to, you know, to make a call and in fact I've done quite a bit of digging. I was even looking at curricula up in Canada and some out of, and also down in New Zealand and some other places. And up in Canada, I was talking about the instructors and in his instructor training manual it references four fingers. Yeah, and it's only a very light reference in the control section. However, when I really challenged to push to the next level and we looked at the actual curricula and not the school policy, it doesn't exist there and it doesn't exist in New Zealand and it doesn't exist in any of the MSF curricula - they had one in… the first one is 1973. It was the Beginning RiderCourse. Then they had the Motorcycle RiderCourse in ‘76 and then in ‘86 they had the Motorcycle RiderCourse: Riding and Street Skills, and then around ‘01, the Basic RiderCourse, came out and then they did a revision in 2014. Not a single one of those references fingers as far as the MSF goes, that I can locate, that I can find.I went so far as to look at the other curricula in the States as well. There's only a few states that don't use the MSF. That's California, Idaho, Oregon, Ohio, South Dakota and Washington. Those all have other curricula used in those states, or at least available in those states. The only one, the only one that I found, that had a reference to the number of fingers is Oregon State and Idaho. And there's one other state that references their stuff but their curricula mentions it, but only once and it's under the use of controls early on, when they describe what the controls are, and it's not in their range - the range books I have sitting in front of me. It's not in their manuals, but yet in these curricula, they just push and push and push and just, I mean instructors won't get certified if they don't do demos with four fingers.And I'm like, if it's that big of a deal, why did I have to dig so deep to find even a single reference in one curricula which I would argue and debate there was some flaws in that development process, or at least the team there. Sorry, guys,
