You will hear from Pastor Patrick Walker from Colonial Beach, Virginia and his heart for helping people use their testimonies to share the gospel AND the way he does that. You don't want to miss this former Army Ranger and large family dad share the challenges of ministry or his transparency in sharing his personal struggles as a Christian, husband, father and pastor.
Transcript:
Host 00:17
So today we are with Patrick Bram Walker, the head pastor at Livingstone Community Church in colonial Beach, Virginia. He's a former Army Ranger and a collegiate wrestler. His lovely wife, Kristen [phonetic 00:28] just recently had their 7th baby a sweet 3 month old named Caleb Elijah. We got some pictures of him this morning. Hopefully we'll get those in for you guys. Good strong name. Caleb Elijah. Speaking of names. Do you like to be called as a pastor? Some people like pastor first name Patrick-- Pastor, last name Walker.
Patrick Walker 00:47
Those who are close to me call me Bram. So that was after Abraham, like Abraham in the Bible, but B-R-A-M that's fine.
Host 00:54
OK, I don't know if we're there yet. But we'll see Bram. I do hear your wife call you Bram and other family. So thanks for letting me... That feels good. What do your congregants call you?
Patrick Walker 01:08
Pastor, Patrick.
Host 01:12
Do you get the double? Like Pastor Patrick, Pastor Walker, do you get that?
Patrick Walker 01:19
Yes. I mean, generally, even though I'm fairly young, I think they tried to show respect.
Host 01:26
Yes, you guys can't see he has some little gray in his whiskers but OK. So do you feel like the older people in your congregation are less likely to use the pastor or more likely out of respect.
Patrick Walker 01:41
More likely.
Host 01:42
Yes. That's how it seems to because you know, it's funny now our home church, our senior pastor, he's maybe 43 and I had some people say, Well, I can't be under him. He's older than him and it was weird but there's tons of older people. He can't be like a nine year old pastor.
Patrick Walker 02:03
I always use the word pastor, when I'm addressing other people. Always. Even if they say don't call me that, just as a sign of respect. I always use that person.
Host 02:12
Like, if they were a doctor. All right. Well, tell us how it is. You got 7 children and a new baby. What's it really like?
Patrick Walker 02:21
Incredibly overwhelming.
Host 02:23
Oh, all the time.
Patrick Walker 02:24
I feel like I'm doing three full time jobs at any given time and then the easiest one is ministry. hardest one is managing the household successfully, and investing in each relationship according to each personality, caring for the hearts of the children, raising them up, character development, and just leading in a Christ-like way, when it comes to the marriage and household.
Host 02:50
You're a shepherd [phonetic 02:50] to them first, right?
Patrick Walker 02:52
I tried to be and thankfully, I'm in a congregation that really truly believes that my primary responsibility is to my family. So they've given me tremendous freedom and flexibility to put them first-- my family first, with a recognition that the church comes second. So I'm incredibly thankful for my current church family that recognizes that.
Host 03:21
That's good. We've had the pleasure of visiting your church and your parishioners love you. They love you, and they love your family, and they seem very privileged to be under you. It's a sweet thing to witness. We've really enjoyed it and the love that they have for your family is evident and I don't think that's always the case when people have large families.
Patrick Walker 03:43
Sure.
Host 03:45
We have a large family. I don't know if all our listeners know that. But I've got to ask the kids you have a large family to you. Like what's the most ridiculous thing someone has said to you about the number of kids you had, is it different in the south? [laughter] [inaudible 03:55] I started being really inappropriate back when people say that to me So what do you say? How do you respond? You just chuckle.
Patrick Walker 04:07
I just chuckle. What is your response?
Host 04:11
I say, "yes", and we love that. Do you not or I like totally try to make them uncomfortable because I feel like it's so strange.
Patrick Walker 04:23
This is honestly managing the household well, is the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life. It is exponentially more difficult than any other responsibility task job that I could have ever done, am doing or could ever imagine doing.
Host 04:42
Do you feel like you were less equipped to be a husband and a dad than you were to be a pastor as far as just like education and preparedness?
Patrick Walker 04:49
Of course, yes-
Host 04:51
What was your favorite?
Patrick Walker 04:52
-I didn't-- Yes, we only grew up with,. There was three of us. I was the oldest. My parents were not believers. Growing up. They were great parents in terms of the worldly sense. I mean, they were real loving parents and they work together and hard working. I mean, there's a lot of principles that were, but I know experience in shepherding a large family, and certainly no experience or example set in terms of shepherding from a spiritual foundation for the household. So, all that had to be kind of learned on the fly.
Host 05:28
Do you feel like it was all learned on the fly? Have you had anybody come alongside you during this time of parenting or newly at the husband to like, mentor you?
Patrick Walker 05:38
Sure, first of all, we have access to amazing-- we have access to the greatest and best disciple makers in the history of the world, because we have books, we've got sermons, we've got teachings that we can listen to but I think there was one family, it's the Boyers and they're in Lynchburg, Virginia, and they have 14 children and so they kind of mentored us and we got to watch their example and how they model and interact with their family and their children and that left a remarkable impact, impression upon us that drastically changed our ideas of family size, and how to do homeschooling and how to do that well.
Host 06:29
Was there one particular thing that you saw in them that you wanted in your family?
Patrick Walker 06:36
You know, it was really nice the first time I showed up, and they're like, Mr. Walker-- there was 4 girls of marriageable age that were all single, "Mr. Walker, can I take your coat, Mr. Walker, can I get you a drink?" I was like, Wow, this is great turning to the Father. What a great feeling. [laughter] [inaudible 07:04] but no, they were just servants and they work together as a team and it was a team effort. If you're going to cook and wash dishes for a family of that size, it's everything's got to be a team effort and centering everything on Christ-like character, everything you do, you know, teaching that and looking for the little moments throughout the day to impart those devotional teachings on Christ-like character.
Host 07:30
Well, just to encourage you the little that we've been around your family, we see the evidence of that in your kids and in your guys's parenting too. So that's really need to know that that came from somewhere, and then...
Patrick Walker 07:39
That is a reflection of Kristen and materials that she digested and tried to put into practice.
Host 07:46
Well, that very well may be true, but it's still there and you get to be the head of the house and I'm sure you get to take some responsibility and thankfulness there, you picked a good wife. [laughter] OK, so let's get into what I'm really excited about that. Because when we came out here last year, you shared with us what you were doing with testimonies and so can you just share with our listeners a little bit what you and your wife have done with your testimonies and what the kind of project the Lord has set before you for your church? As far as the--- Well, let me tell them.
Patrick Walker 08:24
Yeah, so I just recently finished a three year program for my Doctorate of ministry, and that the focus of that was on evangelism and the ideal that I had in mind and the goal that I was shooting for both individually in my own life, but also empowering and equipping others to basically walk this out as well would be evangelism taking place in three major ways:
The first of which is just equipping and encouraging believers be able to share one on one verbally, like in the moment, but there's a lot of times you might meet somebody at the park or you meet somebody at Walmart, and the kids are tugging on you, and you've got to go in different directions, and you don't have a lot of time to stay in there for half an hour and engage and you may never see this person again. So because of those circumstances, I was really looking for a resource that I believed in that was a personal resource, not necessarily a gospel tract, because those are kind of generic, they're not personal and for me, when I read gospel tracks, it brings up more questions than they actually answer. You know, maybe they're designed to stimulate thinking on but they don't really provide a thorough presentation of the gospel and they're kind of impersonal in nature.
So you can't necessarily offer somebody a book because you're not carrying 10 books in your purse as you're walking around everywhere you go. So we just thought about as a second level evangelism tool, creating a personal testimony booklet, which would be maybe 4 inches by 6 inches pocket sized 20 to 50 pages that would really outline a person's life before they came to Christ. You know, how did you come to Christ? And how is your life changed afterwards and then based on that unique testimony story, to move into a gospel presentation, that's not a generic, it's not a template, it's really the way that that individual sees the gospel, based upon their life story and their spiritual journey with Jesus.
So we were working on this as a congregation, I have finished this project in my own life and my wife and we've handed between the two of us, we've handed out hundreds of these little personal testimony booklets. Mine is called from "Ranger to Reverend". So Army Ranger to ordain Reverend and Kristen says, from "Fear to Faith", that's title of her booklet and you look for a aesthetically pleasing, front cover and back and we included contact information and a picture of our family, like on the back inside cover, because we want people who read it maybe to reach out to us if they feel led, [phonetic 11:20] and continue to connect with them or hear how that impacted their life or, or something like that but just going for equipping, and encouraging individual believers to be able to share their faith and feel competent in doing that one on one, verbally, a lot of people are fearful.
I don't know what to say, well, a good second level would be putting together a personal testimony booklet, because it says everything you wanted to say, and you don't need to open your mouth, you can establish a little bit of a relationship or a connection. You have a large family, I have a large family or you went through you had maybe difficulty in terms of an abortion or something and that's something that, and would you be interested in reading my story, because God radically changed my life years ago and I think that you'd be able to relate.
And then the third level would be maybe thinking about videotaping and creating an electronic version of your testimony, that's five minutes to 20 minutes and putting it online, creating a YouTube video and using those three evangelism tools for maximum impact in your life.
Host 12:36
Sure. Yes. That's amazing and I've read both the booklets and they're really good and great at being relatable and I think I keep them too, I keep a view of it. I have a few viewers and I've passed a couple out to and it's really great. Do you have a-- I'm a writer by nature and trade and I have to wonder how difficult that is for some people to do- [crosstalk]
Patrick Walker 13:01
It's not for everyone
Host 13:02
-format that you are using.
Patrick Walker 13:04
Yes, it is not for everyone.
Host 13:06
How's it working.
Patrick Walker 13:07
It's a long process. We recruited at least two other editors, who were theologically sound, they were spiritually mature, but they were also good with the English language, who could kind of come alongside and you know, there's a lot of revisions when it comes to something like this, because you want to produce the best product that's saying exactly what you wanted to say in the best possible way to have an impact on others. So yes, we did develop like a 12 step process and part of that is multiple rounds of revisions with some other mature believers in the church who would volunteer to edit that material, and kind of-- but it's an opportunity for discipleship as well.
So I was involved with every booklet, but we also had two other editors that participated as well and this was an opportunity for us to grow for us to get to know the individual members of our church to a deeper degree and really build that kind of connection and relationship and it was eye opening for each of the individuals that participated in writing the personal testimony booklet, because it helped them to understand the gospel in a deeper way more intimate way and even understand like and appreciate what Jesus has done in their life as they've thought through specifically that journey. So there's been a lot of benefits both for-- On my end, but also on the end of the individuals who have participated in this kind of project.
Host 14:47
So have you guys managed to get through the whole process with anybody else? So, how many other people?
Patrick Walker 14:51
Yes, we've got about 10 people.
Host 14:54
That's great. Oh, my gosh, that's so good.
Patrick Walker 14:57
Yes, but it is, we found that the average And so this is primarily reflection of myself being super busy and the other editors, and people are busy, if you've got a full time job and children; when you're going to write a little bit more verse, if you are a full time student, you might be able to get this done in a much shorter period but we're talking four to five months is the average of just slowly, methodically kind of working on this from the beginning to the very final product where you get your initial 100 copies of the booklet or whatever.
Host 15:32
That's so cool. I love that project. I didn't even know the aspect of you guys doing it together and being so communal and growing the relationships in the body, that's even more amazing. I love it. I love it so much. I'm so glad that it hasn't been non overcome ablechallenge. That it's difficult that you guys just keep pushing, and it just takes longer and you do it. I think that the impact that many booklets can have-- I mean, if 10 people have 100 book that's 1000 people that get the gospel. That is amazing.
Patrick Walker 16:07
So you can potentially really saturate your community more than just if you were relying on verbal opportunities.
Host 16:17
That's amazing. Now are you finding so when -- I mean, I guess let me think had asked this question, how long does it take somebody to give out 100 booklets?
Patrick Walker 16:26
It would depends on how many opportunities you have and how energetic and [laughter] [crosstalk]
Host 16:33
Yes, OK. Do you think it is easier to give out these booklets than it is? Do you think it overcomes the fear of having to speak your testimony in the Gospel? Do you think it is like an alternative almost for the people that are shy about it?
Patrick Walker 16:47
Right. So one of the greatest hindrances in studying this subject of evangelism pretty thoroughly is fear and there's probably maybe at least a dozen different types of fear. What fear of-- Yes, stepping out of my comfort zone, or not knowing what to say, or if they ask me a question. So one of the ways to overcome that would be to put everything you want to say on paper and then it relieves the anxiety of miscommunication and also confrontation. I think a lot of people are fearful of maybe things going the confrontational aspect.
Host 17:29
I don't have that but that sounds super scary if you weren't. [crosstalk]
Patrick Walker 17:34
So the best thing about this booklet is, I don't expect that every person who receives it is going to read it. They may very well just throw in their car and say, Oh, I really, you know, I love meeting that woman at the beach and that was a pretty cool conversation, because she had a lot of kids and I asked her about homeschooling and we connected for and then she offered me her booklet, and she told me what it was about and like, "Oh, this is interesting, I'll read it, I like to read", but she forgets about it and she throws it in our car and a month later, you know, the Holy Spirit can use that. So that booklet can get into her house, it can. It can go places where no human being can go and when the Holy Spirit believes that it's time, we just kind of trust Him, like God can have them pick it up and read it and minister to them exactly when they need it.
Host 18:25
That's really awesome because that's the thing about planting seeds. That's so frustrating as a believer. If you go and you give the gospel and if it's not received, you have this sort of like--- not necessarily that you failed, but like, Okay, well received there, let's let the Holy Spirit do the work and you just try to give yourself the pious answers, but that they actually have something tangible, gives you even as a Christian, like this hope of the Lord doing a work through you continually in a bigger way. That's really cool.
Patrick Walker 18:57
Yes, ideally, I would love to interact face to face with somebody share my story, share the gospel and see them make a decision for Jesus. I would love to see that fruitfulness in the moment but ultimately, we do have to trust in faith that our responsibility is to share as much as we possibly can in the moment and leave the results up to God. I was just frustrated at the times where sometimes I would be sharing, like at the beach, for example, if I met somebody or and then I'm halfway through the gospel, I'm just getting to the solution to the sin problem and hear kids or they get a phone call or something like that, and you don't have anything that I can give as a follow up. It's like man! we told him about sin. We told him about judgment, but we never got to present [phonetic 19:46] Jesus as the solution and that's like, "Ah, no" and we weren't able to finish the conversation. So I needed some resource to carry on me at all times that I could offer that would Reinforce the truth that we just shared, or if I didn't have an opportunity to share anything, would be able to present the gospel as we parted ways.
Host 20:10
And that's so cool, because it was really birthed out of your chaotic season of life because if you wouldn't have had so many kids, or you wouldn't have been in this thing, where someone's always pulling at your leg, maybe you wouldn't have had this idea. So that's cool too.
Patrick Walker 20:22
Sure.
Host 20:22
I mean, if you could have three less kids, this might not have even come into your brain.
Patrick Walker 20:28
But we are moving to a digital-- we're moving the younger generation, is not as much a reader as they are interested in watching or listening. So that's why I'm suggesting: Number one, we as believers, we need to be able to have a passion and zeal, to know the gospel, to want to communicate the gospel, and to bring Jesus to other people but if that's not possible, verbally, we've got a written tool and then we also have an electronic tool. So I would say, we hit more in making our testimony video and the first day, we hit more views than all the booklets that were passed out for months, or years up to that point but if you can get those three circles, it would really provide a balanced evangelism practice in an individuals life.
Host 21:25
That's great. I love it. So what is besides time? I mean, if we have listeners here that are thinking, Oh, my gosh, I want to get in on this project. I love it, how can I help? What the way that people could come alongside you with this project? That would be helpful? Do you need a tech guy? Do you need more editors? Do you want to mass produce the process? Do you want to see this in other churches and I'm doing the process on their own to grow their own communities? Is there something you see bigger for the future for this project? I mean, when you first told me... [crosstalk]
Patrick Walker 21:56
I began this as a project just for myself, and expanded to others in our church and I think it would be a lot of benefit if other churches saw the vision for that and wanted to investigate how they might be able to put that to work in their own context-- in their own church context, with their evangelism, in conjunction with their other evangelism methods for the whole evangelism strategy for their community but the resources, I mean, we could put a link, and we could provide a link that would connect with the thesis paper because this was really the focus of my doctorate, and get all the vital information out to those who were interested.
Host 22:55
Perfect. Great. Thank you. So I'm going to skip the part about you giving us the highlights of your testimony, because I want people to read your booklet. So I feel like if they want a copy [CROSSTALK]
Patrick Walker 23:06
Sure, yes, you can get a copy of the booklet,
Host 23:10
Get all those resources up for them?
Patrick Walker 23:11
Yes, we can do that. We can create a link but let me just say this. I was talking with somebody else recently about this, because they had asked the same question and one of the things like they were asking, when did you first feel that call to become a pastor to move into ministry? And I explained that when I got saved--- I got saved simply by reading the Bible, all by myself. No external outside influence.
Host 23:41
At what age?
Patrick Walker 23:43
This was in the military, 18 to 20 and so when I'm reading the book of Acts, I'm reading about the disciples, and I just assumed that every Christian was full-time. Every Christian was full-time. I didn't know that like...
Host 24:01
As well. They should be...
Patrick Walker 24:03
-They should be right. So I just like, Okay, I guess this is what you do. You model your life after what you see the disciples and the disciples didn't work some other job, they were full time wanting to influence the world for Jesus. So it wasn't until years later, I discovered that that was not necessarily the case and there are some paid full time ministers shepherds, but their job, essentially in Ephesians Chapter-4 is just to equip the saints to do the ministry. Their job is not to really do all the ministry themselves. It's just to know how to do it.
Host 24:39
Oh, wait, can you say that one more time, their job is not what?
Patrick Walker 24:43
To do all the ministry themselves.
Host 24:44
Their job is not to do all the ministry themselves. I feel like we're going to have to put that on a quote and a graphic. But to equip...
Patrick Walker 24:52
Yes, equip the saints for the work of ministry. So that was ironed out a little bit later, and basically ran full time, from the time I was saved, totally consecrated to the Lord and made the decision to put Jesus first in everything I did from that point forward.
Host 25:15
And how was that in the military, I mean, that's kind of...
Patrick Walker 25:18
It began to jeopardize my job.
Host 25:21
Tell us a little because my husband was a marine for 8years and his testimony is a little bit opposite, like where he grew up in a Christian home and then kind...
Patrick Walker 25:28
I think the military-- Every area I've ever stepped foot in, really needs Jesus, people really need Jesus, I understand hearts more than probably most people and I've seen tremendous brokenness, I know what goes on behind the scenes. I know what goes on behind the scenes in my own household and my house was probably reflection of virtually every household in America.
So by virtue of being in this position, as a pastor, I really have a deep knowledge of the brokenness that sin creates in society as a whole and the military is no different. So on one hand, I saw God do a lot of miracles. In the military, and people, especially in that situation, where you're in a life or death situation, you really reflect on what matters most in life and so people are open when they go through significant changes in their or seasons of life, or they're put in near death experiences.
So that was a big thing. But because of my fervor for the Lord, I now bubbled up to become the number one passion of my life, me excelling at my job in the military was second on the list and that began to take less and less of an interest of mine, as I wanted to prioritize the things of God and living on mission for God, spiritually speaking, rather than focusing on the physical mission of the military. So after 4years, I just felt very distinctly that the Holy Spirit was saying, it's time to get out. The military served its purpose and I'm moving you on to other ministry endeavors.
Host 27:13
Do you still have contact with friends from when you were in the army?
Patrick Walker 27:18
Very little, and that's been got out in 2005. So 15, 16 years ago.
Host 27:27
OK and so from there, then I do have to ask, where did you go from there? When you say you-- You know, you were already all in? And then you're all in? Did you discover vocational ministry? Did you just start serving and not making money? Where was it?
Patrick Walker 27:40
From that point forward? It was really a desire to hear from the Holy Spirit, what did he want me to do and just obey. So I went home for a year, went to the University of Delaware. After 4 years of being away from home, it was good to be around family and that was a wonderful year of my life, engaged in ministry on the campus of the University of Delaware before transferring to Liberty, spent 6 years at Liberty University, finalizing several degrees and wrestling at Liberty and participating in various church plants and ministry opportunities before eventually transferring to full time ministry, after graduating seminary,
Host 28:26
What was your favorite ministry to serve in that season? Out of the military, in college, with the freedom of not having a family like where was your passion ministry wife? Was it still evangelism in like everybody, and people-- or was there something you really like to do?
Patrick Walker 28:45
I really love evangelism. I love the word of God, I like studying the Word of God and like sharing the Word of God but I also think the Lord has given me a vision for what an elite athlete looks like, or an elite soldier looks like, and maybe even an elite Christian because you just read the Bible, and you see what that looks like too. So really reproducing, becoming the best most Christ-like individual that I can be, in order to reproduce that into other people and that cannot be mass produced, you know, it takes one on one time into other people, and really allowing them into your life to expose them to the good and the bad and walking with them as a partner in life for an extended season, in order to raise up a mature godly disciple and reproduce yourself into that individual before sending them out to basically do the same with another.
Host 29:46
Right. The process of discipleship. Do you have a time limit in your brain for what you think that should be?
Patrick Walker 29:52
No, it's different for each every individual is different, based on their needs. It takes a tremendous amount of maturity just to assess as an individual, and be flexible to the changing times and seasons, their personality, their needs [inaudible 30:06] exactly correct.
Host 30:08
That's great. I feel like as we've traveled, it's been such a blessing to visit churches and to meet pastors that are not the ones we already know but one of the thing that struck me last year when we got to your church after have for some reason, like your church with so impactful for to us, is that, all pastors have the heart for evangelism and discipleship and some have like other things, you know, some are like apologetics, I'm get a little political, some do other things but across the board, every pastor that you stand there, and you can see the hand of God on him, like they just have such a love for people that they want to win people to Christ, and then make sure that their disciples faithfully walking in their sanctification and I love that and it has stirred in us a great camaraderie. I don't know for the American church, which I often feel very disgruntled with. We appreciate the work that you're doing.
Patrick Walker 31:10
Well, let me share something on that note, because we have been talking before this about one of the biggest challenges that I see facing the American church right now. So I would say it's, it's probably, in my estimation, in the last 20 years, I would say at least 50% and this is just my theological perspective and I've done a lot of research because this is what interests me and I am a numbers guy. I love statistics. I would say at least 50% of everyone who professes the name of Christ is not a true genuine born again, believer. That's just my assessment.
Host 31:47
More... I'm just being conservative when I say at least half and you think about the narrow path, the wide path, Jesus says, Many people are going to take the wide path, very few that--- he doesn't say, are going to take the narrow path. He says they're going to find it, doesn't say that even enter, they just find it and then in a later passage, do you remember when Jesus says in Matthew 7, he says,
"Many will come to me on that day saying, Lord, Lord, they're even proclaiming His Lordship and Jesus says, I never knew you"
You never came through the gate. I'm the shepherd of the sheep and you never surrendered.
Host 32:23
And it even says they prophesied in his name and write for miracles, right?
Patrick Walker 32:25
So, they're obviously religious, they believe in him. They're religious, they've got religious activity, they've got knowledge and yet, they've never surrendered fully to Christ. He doesn't know them in an intimate, personal way. So I would say that's-- and of course, you know, the 4 soils, we in America are like soil number 2, where we have very shallow roots, or soil number 3, where our fruitfulness is choked out by how many distractions we have in this world and that's even true in my own life. I mean, I have to constantly fight with an overwhelming amount of other entertainment, temptations maybe, and various things to pull us away from what matters most.
Host 33:17
Which is interesting, because from an outside perspective, it seems like you do so much. I would venture to say maybe we're similar in this capacity, also, where CS Lewis has a really great quote where somebody says to him, "Wow, you know, when you get to heaven, you're going to get to stand before the Lord and look at all you've done" and he says, "But the Lord is going to know the things he told me to do that I didn't do" and sometimes people do that with us. They're like, Wow, look at you're doing all these things but I know that I still watched three of those shows when I should have been writing or doing something else for the Lord and so I think, it seems like you're doing so much, but only you know, what you're supposed to be doing. That's a very personal thing that I don't even think most Christians assess.
Patrick Walker 34:04
We can make judgments on other people when we compare ourselves with others but we don't realize. If I have been given 20 talents from the Lord, but I'm only using 10 of them. I'm 50% [crosstalk 34:19] But you've only been given 5 but you're using 4 out of 5. You're using 4I'm using 10. So I look to be much more.[ crosstalk 34:28] Yes, I'm an F but in proportion you are much better than I am though it appears as if, because I've been given more talents. I am superior, I am doing more than you but in the Lord's eyes proportionally, you're actually more obedient and more successful and more fruitful.
Host 34:47
That is the best I've ever heard it articulated and I feel like we should be teaching people how to do that, how to assess their gift and see where they're at on it because if somebody is hurt has been gifted mightily and they're not using any of it or they're only using half. That is a great disservice to Christians in general and to their relationship with the Lord and Aalala, we could go on but oh my gosh, I love how you articulated that. What was it-- one of the kids-- Our kids were playing yesterday and one of the kids made an analogy of-- they've done the outside of the puzzle, and we're coming in to do to finish the inside of the puzzle. Do you remember what that was? Who said that what the context was? Do you remember? It probably doesn't matter but the point is, like, I feel like that, like we're all looking at the outside of everybody's puzzle, and we're like, get the enzyme, you know, but it's different. It's different for everyone. We can't even see their picture.
Patrick Walker 35:45
Ultimately, I think it is dangerous to compare. For me to compare with other pastors or church to compare with another church or believers to compare with other believers because really, the only thing that matters is, what is the Holy Spirit saying to me, what's the word saying to me?What is Jesus saying to me, and how do I put it into practice? How do I obey that and just be faithful to what he's saying, and just trust with the results.
Host 36:11
That makes me want to ask-- That's true, we should all be there and I think women struggle with this more; with social media and being a mom and should I parent my kids this way, should I show up blah, blah, blah. At the pastor do you struggle with that? [phonetic 36:27] Do you have to check your thoughts and be like, Okay, I'm not looking at that guy. I don't know what the Lord is telling him to do. Do you have to check your thoughts?
Patrick Walker 36:33
Of course.
Host 36:33
Yes, you do.
Patrick Walker 36:34
Yes.
Host 36:35
I thought maybe you didn't? Do you worry about what people think?
Patrick Walker 36:40
If a pastor has a love for people, of course he worries about what other people think.
Host 36:46
Do you consider yourself a people pleaser?
Patrick Walker 36:49
No, but I do see the temptation. I am not by nature, a people pleaser. Because that's not my personality, I'm an individual take charge, do my own thing but even for my personality, which is on the exact opposite spectrum of being a people pleaser, being in a position as a pastor, if you have a love for people, you naturally want to care for them. You want them to be happy, you want to love them, you want them to be fulfilled, you want to meet their needs and so you are very in tune with that but it cannot supersede the greatest command, which is Love the Lord, your God with all your heart. Your vertical relationship has gotten to always maintain the priority over and above our love for one another, and the influence that we feel or experience horizontally.
Host 37:42
Patrick said he wasn't good at. Pastor Patrick said he wasn't good at interviews but he's doing great. I love it. You got all the great things. This is perfect.
OK, what's a common myth you think people believe about pastors that is a lie, or you just wish you could shout from the rooftops, this isn't true.
Patrick Walker 38:01
I have three things, I have thoughts that come to mind.
Number one is my job literally never ends.. It's kind of like being a mom for your household with the children. Your job just never ends. It's not just preaching on Sunday morning. It's constantly-- I'm thinking about dozens of people every day, how they're doing, and I can never do enough to do what I think needs or should happen, you know, in their lives to properly care for them. I feel like I'm failing at any given time. For somebody who's striving for excellence, who's idealistic, who wants to do a good job, you just feel like you can't meet all the needs, you can't do everything and your job never ends.
The second thing is I experienced just as much pain as I do joy. So there are some great joyful moments in pastoring but there's also some painful ones. When people pass away, or they move away, or they move to another church, people that you've grown up, I mean, that you live with, they are your family, you know, it can be--- if you were to look at your children 1020 years from now, and then they didn't live up to your potential, like their potential, it would be very painful. So when I look at people, church members, I see God's vision for their life, I see their potential, and when they don't live up to their potential, it's heartbreaking and I feel the weight of that, I feel the burden that because I'm trying to encourage, motivate, equip them, teach them train them, do whatever it takes because them want them to be successful in God's eyes and that can be a painful part of ministry but also, at times you're dealing with sinful human beings in a fallen world.
So there's going to be hurtful words. There's going to be misunderstandings. There's going to be-- The loneliness aspect of pastoring we just don't feel like anybody understand you and you can't really share. You could share pastor to pastor because we get it but you can't truly share and feel understood by church members because they haven't been in your shoes.
So there's rejection, there's negativity, there's hurtful words. There's a lot of pain, just as much so as there is joy when it comes to the pastor or ministry side of things and I want to be honest, really quick and just mentioned one final thought for this question is, "There is not a shadow of doubt in my mind, I would literally commit any sin if given the right circumstances, that is 100%. There's no deceiving". So one of the myths you know, you think the pastor's on a different level, I would literally I would commit adultery, I would commit murder, I would commit any sin if God's hand of grace simply withdrew, and when he has done that in the past. It's amazing how quickly Satan, his lies, he can bombard your mind, your thinking, your heart, your feelings, and you can spiral downward very quickly in a short period of time.
So I always want to dwell with the Holy Spirit and be filled with the Holy Spirit and filled with the Word of God. But if we're not careful, or if the Lord wants to teach us something in a season of our life, and he withdraws at hand, it's a dangerous place to be, the only protection we have is under the grace of God and apart from the grace of God, we can do nothing.
Host 41:42
Thank you for sharing that. You guys can't see me but my eyes totally welled up twice while he was talking. It's really important for the general church to understand that the love that you men have for them, and it's one of the things that's been most frustrating to me and one of the reasons I believe the Lord called us to this podcast in particular is because I don't think they get it but adults should get it.
You know, we now as adults, we see how our parents were with us, and it was all for our good and the Lord has ordained this relationship and the shepherd of a church and sometimes it feels upsetting and people don't want to submit to church leadership, or they don't like the circumstances or they don't like the message that day, or whatever. I recently heard a pastor say, you know, some of you are just one bad moment away from leaving this church and that shouldn't be how it is like, you shouldn't even be there and your minds and it's really important, I think, for the masses to hear a pastor say, I love these people so much that I'm constantly burden for them, and I'm filled with amazing amount of joy when the things happen in their life, it's really important to share that. Thank you for taking a minute to share that and helping us remember that you're superhuman, not superhuman, completely human [laughter] Not superhuman. So you got to saved [phonetic 43:18] pretty young in life, 1820.
Patrick Walker 43:19
I made a profession of faith and was baptized earlier than that but my life did not change, and based upon the evidence provided in First John, for example, where he lists about 18 different characteristics of what a genuine born again, believer should look like and none of those were true in my life. I mean, I was still engaged in sexual immorality, I was still just doing my--- I had no love for the Word of God and no interest to actually read and study the Word even though I had made a profession of faith and been baptized. So I had some church exposure, and I had some biblical exposure for several years before that moment in the military. But it wasn't until the military that I truly became born again and things began to radically change from that point forward.
Host 44:11
So, from a theological standpoint, then use the term--- Tell me the terms you use, like you had a profession of faith and were baptized because there was no change. You consider yourself born again. At that time in the military did you give another profession of faith where you ever baptized again after that or was the change sufficient in your in your mind at the time? I'm just curious from this? You said, it was God's word, and that you were reading. Was it just the Holy Spirit, not just but you know, was it the Holy Spirit and then
Patrick Walker 44:52
Yes, here's a lot of ways I mean, think about the Pharisees. They were they had memorized the entire Old Testament. They were incredible. knowledgeable regarding God's word. But Jesus said, in John Chapter-5, he said:
"You refuse to come to me to have life."
So Jesus is the living word. So we can be incredibly knowledgeable about religious subjects and religious topics and we can go to church, we can go through actions. I mean, even James says, even the demons believe, and they tremble, they even they intellectually believe in Jesus, because they know he's the one that created them and they even have any emotional response to that belief, and yet demon, they're not going to heaven, because the key issue was submission.
So they never submitted their lives to Jesus, and that was the key back in earlier on in my life. I never experienced the true submission when it comes to making Christ, my lord and let me give you an example, for this, because this is really, really critical. I would say that, going back to my military training for a moment, I think it helped me to understand spiritual warfare and athletics as well to learn the value of teamwork and perseverance but military, it taught me in the absence of persecution in America, for against Christians, I was able to get a feel for suffering, pain, difficulty trials, and the persevere through those.
So there was a lot of direct parallels that benefited me spiritually, because of the physical things that I went through as an athlete or in the military. But really the biggest key when I went into the military, there came a point where I had to sit across from Uncle Sam, so to speak and Uncle Sam slid me a contract, and said, "Sign it". Now, I didn't know what I was getting into at that moment, and you didn't have to, nobody does. But there came a point where once I sign that piece of paper, I was making a covenant with the military and basically, here's what it was, "We agreed to provide certain things to you and in exchange, you give us your life", it's your life, all of it. "We will tell you what you can eat will tell you, what weapon you're going to carry will tell you when you're going to get deployed. By the way, you might even have to literally give your life in the service of your country".
So because of my military experience, when I came to Christ, it took me about six months to wrestle with, am I going to sign the contract or not? Because I knew because of the physical realm, if you pull that over to the spiritual, and some of my favorite passages are Jesus saying, if you don't count the cost, if you don't die to yourself, if you don't forsake all, you cannot be my disciple. So I knew what that is. I knew what that meant in the physical realm and in the spiritual realm, I had to wrestle with this concept to get to the point where I literally drew out, it's up there on my wall, I drew out a covenant with the Lord and I signed it on a particular day and from that point forward, I was basically saying, "I'm submitting my life to you, I'm surrendering my life to you, and I don't own myself anymore. You're the new owner".
Host 48:39
That's a really profound as you were talking about it from the military perspective, I immediately drew the parallel, we should all feel like that about the Lord. It's the bondservant. We're all [inaudibble 48:51] We were bought with a price we are not our own. But it's such a difficult concept for people to understand what a blessing that you even had that perspective. That's special.
Patrick Walker 49:04
Sure, I think that would be very beneficial to understand for a majority of professing Christians in America because it's really a life for a life. You don't add Jesus like a cherry on top of your ice cream of your already nice life, if you want eternal life, the implication of believing everything that Jesus is and what he said and what he claimed is, you surrender your life to the king and he owns you from that point forward, to walk through the narrow gate is to leave behind your life and to submit to a new owner, a new ruler, a new king, it's the shepherd and you become his. So you die. The moment you walk through the narrow gate, you die to yourself and you now belong to someone else and you do not have a right over any decision from that point forward. Just like in the military, I have no right. I have no rights anymore and I am-- I wish I'd had
Host 50:13
Center back in the day. I don't even if they still do this, I don't watch TV but there's like where they put up on the sides. They put up all the topics and then they have like 20 seconds to do it or they have to give like a one word answer. So, I just came up with 15 questions, and they have one word answer. [crosstalk]
Patrick Walker 50:29
Well, I do my best.
Host 50:34
[crosstalk] It depends. You just have to say the first thing that comes to your mind fast.
Patrick Walker 50:37
I will try.
Host 50:38
OK, ready? Will you have more children?
Patrick Walker 50:41
No.
Host 50:43
Do you lean more towards Calvinism or Arminianism [phonetic 50:45]?
Patrick Walker 50:47
100% of both?
Host 50:50
Are you pre-med or post-trib.
Patrick Walker 50:53
Pre.
Host 50:55
Topical teachings or verse by verse?
Patrick Walker 50:57
Both.
Host 50:59
Pro or anti mask?
Patrick Walker 51:02
Anti.
Host 51:04
Pro or anti vaccine?
Patrick Walker 51:06
Yes. For the most part, anti.
Host 51:10
Contemporary or traditional worship?
Patrick Walker 51:12
Both.
Host 51:12
That's true. He does both in his services. Politics or no politics from the pulpit? I've heard him do politics.
Patrick Walker 51:22
You didn't even give me a chance to answer that. [crosstalk 51:25] Yes, yes. Politics.
Host 51:28
Do you have a caveat? Did you want to add something?
Patrick Walker 51:32
We need to apply God's truth in every area of life including the political realm.
Host 51:39
Do Christians have the freedom to drink alcohol?
Patrick Walker 51:42
Sure.
Host 51:43
Should women be labeled as pastors?
Patrick Walker 51:47
No.
Host 51:48
Does your church exercise church discipline?
Patrick Walker 51:52
We have. Yes.
Host 51:53
Spiritual gifts for Biblical times or present day also?
Patrick Walker 51:57
Present day all of them, even the miraculous ones.
Host 52:00
Such as... Do you have a favorite spiritual gift?
Patrick Walker 52:03
I would love to operate in spiritual gift of healing miracles.
Host 52:07
That'd be good . Have you ever spoken in tongues?
Patrick Walker 52:10
Yes.
Host 52:11
In your own language or in like a prophetic way where somebody had an interpretation?
Patrick Walker 52:15
My own language.
Host 52:17
Children in adult church or children's church?
Patrick Walker 52:21
For the most part in adult church not separated?
Host 52:25
Who is responsible for sin, Adam or Eve?
Patrick Walker 52:28
Hmm. Both of them committed sin, didn't they?
Host 52:33
Yes, I mean, I just like to ask because in [laughter]
Patrick Walker 52:36
Adam is the authority [crosstalk]
Host 52:49
Biblical counseling or psychology.
Patrick Walker 52:52
Biblical counseling.
Host 52:55
OK, confession time. What do you got? The name of our podcast is Church Royalty Confessions of Church Leadership and the idea is to just let general Christians know that Church Leaders are genuine people. What can you tell to the masses that maybe they would be surprised to hear?
Patrick Walker 53:18
But I've got some final thoughts.
Host 53:20
Ok, then we will tell you do your final thought.
Patrick Walker 53:21
Final thoughts, Final Thoughts leading into a confession. I think the biggest challenge in my life right now is, there's so much that cannot be done apart from supernatural power. I think if I was going to request one prayer request of what I needed more than anything else, it would be probably more of the Holy Spirit more power, because you don't have the power to change hearts, you know, you don't have the power to fix or to transform lives, you don't have the power to fix spiritual issues unless the Holy Spirit is involved and you can work eight hours a week and get nowhere.
Patrick Walker 54:05
Apart from God's divine activity, so my greatest need in this and my greatest challenge is really connecting with the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, his presence and power in everyday life, for greater impact and I'm also just challenged in this season with balance quality time for each of the relationships that that are important to me, whether it's God, primarily, then my wife and my family, my church family and in the context of all of that I know we have kind of talked about this a bit, but the greatest danger that I face is a disconnect between what I know and how I live and I see that having either positive ramifications for my family or negative ones because my family knows me better than anyone else and if I'm not living what I'm preaching, then I am suddenly under mining my whole Christianity and the Christianity in my family, it will come, there's always consequences in the long run.
Patrick Walker 55:14
So I'm really just focusing on the fact that true maturity is living the truth rather than just knowing it and I guess if you were going to move into a confession of some sort, and we had been transparent earlier on in our conversation, but I would say, there's probably not a single week that goes by that I don't feel like quitting at some point.
Patrick Walker 55:46
So it's just can be overwhelming, you feel like you're a failure at times you want to improve, you want to grow, and you're at a loss as to how to fix this situation, or handle this particular conflict or make progress in this realm and Satan has this very subtle way of coming in and if he can attack your mind, he'll get you, he'll get all of you. The thing that we need to guard is or is our thinking is our mind and of all the people that talk to us the most we talk to ourselves more than anyone else. So what we say to ourselves is critical when it comes to our longevity in ministry, and the maturity, this the state of our thinking, so, I have struggled with--- We had approached this subject months ago and we talked about this a little bit too.
I've struggled with suicidal thoughts. I went through a really bad time. I mean, discouragement, depression, feelings of failure, quitting, I probably would say that 90% plus of pastors go through that at any given time and I'm not going to blame it all on Satan, because I know my own sinful weaknesses, too and it's a product of my decision making and my thinking but I also after 18 years of doing this recognize the subtle activity of the demonic realm, to plant seeds and thoughts in your mind and again, apart from the grace of God, it only takes a moment for Satan to come in and he can wreck tremendous damage in just a short period of time.
Patrick Walker 57:31
So that really is humbling to me, I think it's good to be in a position of humility and brokenness because that's the safest place to be that I could literally fall at any given moment and a knowledge of that makes me fearful to cling to Jesus, and to rely upon His grace at every second of the day, because if I release my grip, there's no telling what could happen.
Host 58:04
Thank you so much. I feel emotional, I'm not going to be very good at audio if I'm choked up. Again, you guys today we sat with Patrick Bram Walker, Pastor Patrick Bram Walker of Livingstone Community Church, and he blessed us so much with his transparency. Don't forget to subscribe to Church Royalty Confessions of Church Leadership for the next episode. Thank you so much, Patrick.
