In this episode of The Dr. Hedberg Show I interview Dr. Carrie Jones of Precision Analytical on hormone balancing and testing. We cover a lot of detail about reproductive and adrenal hormones including testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, cortisol, DHEA and more. Dr. Jones explains the causes of elevated and decreased hormone levels and some strategies on balancing these issues. We also discuss the best way to test hormones including the DUTCH test which is my favorite hormone test offered by Precision Analytical.
Dr. Carrie Jones, ND, MPH is an internationally recognized speaker, consultant, and educator on the topic of women’s health and hormones. She graduated from the National University of Natural Medicine (NUNM), School of Naturopathic Medicine in Portland, Oregon where she also completed her 2-year residency in women’s health, hormones and endocrinology. Later she graduated from Grand Canyon University’s Master of Public Health program with a goal of doing more international education. She was adjunct faculty for many years teaching gynecology and advanced endocrinology/fertility and has been the Medical Director for 2 large integrative clinics in Portland. She is the Medical Director for Precision Analytical, Inc, creators of the DUTCH hormone test.
Dr. Hedberg: Well, welcome everyone to the Dr. Hedberg Show. This is Dr. Hedberg, and I'm excited today to have Dr. Carrie Jones, on the show. I've been listening to her and reading her material for some time now. And I've also heard her speak in person. So Dr. Jones, is a naturopath and she's definitely an expert on hormones, we'll be talking about all the different hormones today. So Dr. Jones welcome to the show.
Dr. Jones: Thank you Dr. Hedberg, I appreciate you having me on, hormones is my favorite subject.
Dr. Hedberg: Great. So, why don't you just fill everyone in on what you're working on these days and your area of expertise.
Dr. Jones: Yeah, so like you said hormones is it. So I went to school and did my residency in all things women's health, hormones and gynecology. And expanded a little bit into men's health and hormones, just by default as women would bring the men in in their life, and they would say, "He has a hormone problem too." So I always joke and my ongoing joke is that if something's wrong with your child, don't ask me. And if you hurt yourself, like you hurt your knee, don't ask me that either. But if you're a hormonal mess I can help you with that, that's what I'm good at.
Dr. Hedberg: Right. So you work for Precision Analytical which is the lab that I use for hormone testing and they do the Dutch test. So why don't we jump in and excuse me. Why don't we jump into the first hormone which is, I always like to start with start with progesterone. So why don't we start with cycling females. So when you talk a little bit about what may be some of the reasons why we would either see high or low progesterone, in a cycling female?
Dr. Jones: Yeah, and actually will start with a level because I think that's well, a lot more common. So there are two reasons that a cycling female will be low. One is she does not ovulate. So when a woman releases an egg she has two sets of cells around her follicles, and they convert into a third set of cells called the lutein cells. And that's what makes progesterone. So if she doesn't release the eggs, then she's not gonna get that little conversion and she's not going to make progesterone. Now the other reason the second big reason is she may ovulate. She might release an egg, she feels it, she notices it, her mucus changes what have you. She does the you know, ovulation predictor kit from the grocery stores, it's positive. And still her progesterone might be pretty low, pretty weak. And then the reason for that is that those cells that are supposed to make progesterone, they themselves are weak. And so we have to do something to pump up the cells.
So if you don't ovulate and/or these cells are pretty weak you get low progesterone. And most women they'll feel...well, let me tell you what progesterone does, progesterone is our calming, soothing, relaxing, kind of everything's gonna be okay, hormone. So if you don't feel calm, and soothed, or relaxed especially in that second half of your cycle then it's potentially a low progesterone problem. Progesterone helps with sleep, it helps reduce anxiety, and it's our pro-gestation hormone. So it helps with fertility and it's one of the primers for the uterus, it helps with implantation. It helps maintain a fetus in the first you know, 6 to 10 weeks until the placenta is strong enough to take over. So we need progesterone but those are the two big reasons why it might be low. You don't ovulate or your actual cells aren't doing so well.
Dr. Hedberg: And where would you factor stress into that and how that might be affecting the pituitary. Wouldn't that also be a potential factor?
Dr. Jones: Yeah, it will block ovulation...and not so much block, but it will...I mean in the body if it's in fight or flight then reproduction is not it's first thought. In fact there's this really great quotes it's probably one of my most favorite quote that I've read in the research. And it's talking about norepinephrine, the hormone, which is also known as noradrenaline, it's one of your adrenal hormones besides cortisol. And the quote says that if you are a norepinephrine dominant person, if you have a lot of stress in your life, then your body will direct you away from repair, maintenance and reproduction. And it will direct you towards mobilizing your resources to dealing with the stress, to running, you know, to handle the fight or the flight.
And I think that's a really key quote because if you have a lot going on in your life, if you're very stressed out, if you've you know, either physically or you know, emotionally. Or you know, you've got viruses and bacteria and things you're fighting internally, the relationships you're in, your body will direct you away from reproduction. And when you get directed away from reproduction you don't ovulate well, often, regularly like you're supposed to. So yes, stress can absolutely redirect ovulation.
Dr. Hedberg: So as far as I'm aware if progesterone is low in a cycling female as far as interventions other than using progesterone itself. I know Vitex, chaste tree berry, has been used. Are you aware of anything else that can help balance progesterone?
Dr. Jones: Yes. So a vitamin B6 is a really good one, that one is helpful for FSH and LH stimulation. If you're not ovulating, obviously, trying to figure out why, is it a thyroid problem is it a brain problem. Are you taking something such as you know, a steroid inhaler, steroid medication, or steroid nasal spray that's inhibiting ovulation. Are you on pain medications pain, pain medications will block ovulation. You know, there's a huge number of factors for ovulation, but the chaste tree I love vitamin B6. I do use something called glandulars, do you use glandulars, do you like glandulars?
Dr. Hedberg: A few. Yeah.
Dr Jones: So people are more familiar with sort of adrenaline glandurals. But there are ovarian glandulars. And so I will use those, sort of more nourishing to the ovaries. And I also use some oils, so even in primrose oil which is a good one, borage oil, which is another good one. And then to support the cells themselves, the cells that make progesterone are called lutein cells. And they are collectively known as the corpus luteum or luteum. And lutein being they're from your orange and your red family of foods. They're high in lutein and you know, carotenoids, sort of beta carotene vitamin A, lutein, those sort of things. So I tell people you know, eat your orange and your red veggies, eat your tomatoes, eat your orange sweet potatoes, eat your apricots. Eat those things, your red and orange peppers because it can be really nourishing for those cells.
Dr. Hedberg: And let's not forget about the guys, when it to comes progesterone. So throw your little curveball, maybe it's an easy answer for you, but what are you thinking when you see high progesterone in men? I know it's pretty rare, but I've seen it here and there.
Dr. Jones: On the Dutch tests we see high progesterone commonly associated with high estrogen and high cortisol. And then we see men get their estrogen under control and their cortisol goes down. Their progesterone tends to follow suit. I don't know if you're noticing that as well, but usually when people say, "What do I do about progesterone?" I say, "If you just address the estrogen and the cortisol in this man his progesterone will improve."
Dr. Hedberg: Exactly, yeah, we see that quite a bit,.elevated estrogen and then elevated beta-glucoronides on their stool tests and things like that. So excellent, why don't we shift into estrogen so we have estradiol, estrone, estriol. What are you thinking, let's start again with the cycling female when you see highs and lows in those those hormones?
Dr. Jones: Yeah, so if I see high estrogen then a couple of things. One, she's either...much like men, women make their estrogen from a conversion of testosterone which is called aromatization, testosterone converts into estrogen. But two, which I don't think people realize, the you know, the estrogenic chemicals in our environment, the endocrine disruptors, research is showing that things like BPA, bisphenol-A, which are in our plastic water bottles and you know, with our thermal receipts and they line our cans or caned foods, can actually raise estradiol (E2) itself.
We used to think it was more just an endocrine receptor binder, but it will actually increase estradiol. So we need to be really careful there. And then the third thing I really think about is just core detoxification. So maybe you're making totally normal levels of estrogen, but you can't clear it, you're phase one,
