Technology keeps changing, but many of the most effective scams still come down to something very human: trust. My guest today is Tony Sales, co-founder of We Fight Fincrime and Underworld TV. Tony has a perspective most people in fraud prevention will never have. Earlier in his life, he was involved in organized financial crime and was once described in the UK press as Britain's greatest fraudster.
After years in that world, and after serving time in prison, Tony made the decision to use what he knew to help stop the very crimes he had once been part of. Today, Tony works with financial institutions, governments, law enforcement, and major organizations to help them better understand fraud, social engineering, money laundering, and cybercrime. In this conversation, he explains why criminals are often so effective at exploiting human behavior, why security training can miss the real-world ways scams unfold, and why friction is not always a bad thing when it helps protect people from devastating losses.
We also talk about the role of leaked data, call center scams, deepfakes, banking safeguards, and why consumers and organizations both need to think differently about fraud prevention. Tony's message is direct: criminals adapt quickly, and if we want to defend against them, we need to understand how they think.
Show Notes:
- [01:25] Tony Sales shares his background as a former UK fraudster and explains how he now works through We Fight Fincrime to help people understand money laundering, online safety, and human vulnerability.
- [03:04] Tony describes being drawn into crime as a child, beginning with small thefts before gradually moving into sponsorship scams, credit card fraud, and cloned debit cards.
- [06:10] After getting caught for identity theft and spending years as a fugitive, Tony explains how prison and seeing the impact on his family became a turning point in his life.
- [08:35] How organized crime operates like a business, with different people handling IDs, fraud schemes, fake watches, mortgage fraud, and professional connections.
- [11:40] Why criminal networks rely on trusted introductions, insulation, and layers of separation to protect the people at the top.
- [14:30] Tony explains how criminals adapt in the moment, use confidence to avoid suspicion, and often rely on talking their way out of situations instead of escalating them.
- [18:20] The difference between how criminals and security professionals think, including why criminals are not limited by the same rules, checklists, or assumptions.
- [21:35] Tony discusses how childhood experiences, ADHD, and a lack of structure contributed to the way he viewed rules and boundaries.
- [24:00] Social engineering is not always dramatic or technical; Tony explains how believable stories, ordinary behavior, and quick adaptation can be more effective than elaborate tactics.
- [26:45] How call center scams combine scripts with salesmanship, emotional pressure, and real-time responses to keep victims engaged.
- [29:33] Tony explains why leaked data remains valuable for criminals and how even a name and phone number can be enough to build a convincing attack.
- [31:43] The conversation turns to personal and organizational protection, including Tony's belief that people need to "patch" the human operating system.
- [34:20] Why fraud awareness training often fails when it is boring, generic, or disconnected from people's everyday consumer lives.
- [36:16] An example of a bank adding friction to an international wire transfer, and Tony explains why friction can protect people from major losses.
- [38:30] Tony discusses the tension between fast, frictionless transactions and stronger safeguards that may slow people down but reduce fraud risk.
- [41:03] AI, deepfakes, and impersonation scams raise new challenges, but Tony emphasizes the importance of live verification and using common sense.
- [43:24] What consumers should understand about bank security, shared responsibility, and why no system can remove every risk.
- [46:00] Everyday data requests, such as hotels asking for passport copies, can create long-term privacy and fraud risks if that information is mishandled.
- [47:48] Tony discusses online safety, young people, and why banning access to social media may create new vulnerabilities instead of solving the underlying problem.
- [50:15] Why learning from former criminals, hackers, and people who understand real-world attacks can help organizations defend themselves more effectively.
- [52:30] Tony explains why companies need more security talent, stronger resources, and boards that understand the scale of modern fraud and cybercrime threats.
- [54:32] Tony shares where listeners can find him online and learn more about We Fight Fincrime.
Thanks for joining us on Easy Prey. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and leave a nice review.
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