Not all lies are scams, but everyone lies, even if it's only about someone's birthday gift. Liars give out both verbal and nonverbal cues, but how do you know what they are? Listen to this episode to learn how to spot a lie.
Today's guest is Pamela Meyer. Pamela is certified fraud examiner, international speaker, entrepreneur, and the author of Lie Spotting: Proven Techniques to Detect Deception. Her TEDtalk "How to Spot a Liar" is one of the 15 most popular TEDtalks of all time with over 30 million views. She has been featured on NPR, CNN, ABC, Forbes, The Washington Post, and The New York Post, and she writes regularly for The Huffington Post.
Show Notes:
- [1:03] - Pamela's background is in business and for many years she was in media. She had developed some websites and sold them. She shared how a Harvard Business School reunion sparked her interest in deception.
- [2:41] - When Pamela returned home from the reunion, she realized that there was a huge interest in the topic of deception but that the information on it was inaccessible.
- [3:31] - Pamela shares the story that is also featured in her book Lie Spotting, about an assistant she had many years ago.
- [4:56] - Just because it is taught in the CIA, doesn't mean it can't be learned by the public.
- [5:23] - The myth of lie detection is that it is simple. It is actually quite complex.
- [6:02] - Pamela shares another myth regarding lie detection through the eyes.
- [7:10] - When someone is lying, sometimes people will try to overcompensate their body language to appear truthful.
- [8:20] - What's important with lie detection is starting with baselining. One indicator doesn't mean anything and Pamela describes why.
- [10:02] - If you know someone very well and you notice that something is a little off, it could be an indicator for lying. Pamela explains that someone trained in detection will be able to note exactly what is off.
- [10:52] - Professionals can usually determine a baseline for someone and detect lies within a half hour, 15 minutes, or even 5 minutes.
- [11:56] - If you are having a difficult conversation, what you're looking for are energetic changes.
- [12:53] - Pamela begins sharing a good starting point called BASIC in learning detection which is a 5 step process. This is different from the advanced masterclass she offers.
- [13:03] - The first step is B for Baselining. A is for Ask open ended questions.
- [14:07] - Be warm and be in an environment that is free from distraction. Sit in a non-threatening way and make the person feel comfortable.
- [15:47] - Be authentic with building rapport with someone. Prepare for harder conversations ahead of time.
- [17:39] - The biggest issue with cues to verbal and nonverbal deceit is what we call Cognitive Load. When you're trying to think what to say, act composed, appear spontaneous, if you are lying you leak verbal and nonverbal cues.
- [19:03] - Pamela shares some nonverbal cues that someone who is lying could adopt when in conversation with you.
- [20:37] - The verbal cues in a difficult conversation could be pushing the main point of conversation off to the end. Someone who is truthful will typically tell a story with a beginning, middle, and an end.
- [21:29] - Pamela describes some verbal cues that could mean deception.
- [22:40] - These methods are not weapons. They're just techniques to help you get to the truth. Deception isn't always indicative of something bad.
- [24:22] - Everyone lies. Although the term "lying" has a negative connotation.
- [25:01] - S in BASIC is "Study the clusters." Look at the cues and study them. I is for "Intuiting the gaps." Keep your instincts in mind and identify and fill in the holes.
- [26:37] - Pamela describes behavior gaps and emotion gaps. What is the person saying and are they flashing contradictory facial expressions or body movements?
- [28:10] - These indicators are not to point fingers and call the person a liar. They are to give you more information and give you guidance on the harder questions to ask.
- [28:32] - C is to confirm. After you've done everything prior, you need to now ask the questions that will confirm your thoughts of deceit. These questions often indicate that you have some information that you might not have.
- [30:18] - Pamela gives some examples of what a truthful person will say to answer these questions and what a deceitful person will say.
- [31:17] - You don't always have to use these questions and in most cases you won't need to. But Pamela has several that she keeps in her back pocket in the event that she needs more.
- [32:09] - A good interrogator or interviewer is prepared. If you are an artful interviewer, you will be prepared with tons of questions to determine that Cognitive Load.
- [33:13] - To answer the question of "can you teach me to lie?" Pamela says no because anyone who is really talented at interrogation will be able to detect deception.
- [34:07] - We all have biases and blindspots. So we are not completely immune to being conned or lied to.
- [34:57] - We are past polygraph tests these days. There is a lot of technology out there to detect deception. It can't be used in all settings but it's available.
- [37:34] - There is a lot of technology that is effective and some that is not. Pamela gives some examples of studies that are going on currently.
- [39:08] - Chris and Pamela discuss the problem of cyberthreats and not knowing the baseline of someone. This also applies to AI algorithms.
Thanks for joining us on Easy Prey. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and leave a nice review.
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