Thinking about becoming an apprentice? Is someone you know looking to their future? In this episode we look at apprenticeships, focusing on the North West of England and speak to an apprentice at the University Hospitals of Liverpool group.
Hi everyone, and welcome to this edition of Ofsted Talks. I'm Briony Balsom and this time we're exploring all things apprenticeships. I'm joined here today by Lynn Masterson, who's Vice Principal of commercial and growth at Hugh Baird College in Liverpool, Lisa Daniels, who's currently an apprentice on foundation degree through Hugh Baird but based at University Hospitals of Liverpool group, Fiona O'Shea, also at Hugh Baird, and by Ruth Stammers, one of our senior His Majesty's Inspectors of Further Education and Skills here at Ofsted. Just to set us off, Ruth, we probably think we know, but do we? What is an apprenticeship?
Ruth: Okay, so for those who might not know what an apprenticeship is, essentially it's a job where you learn alongside your job. So, they're open to anybody from the age of sixteen onwards. So we see apprentices, obviously quite young ones coming out of school, and we see apprentices retraining into different careers, well into their sixties, sometimes even their seventies, believe it or not. A kind of standard apprenticeship is usually either one day a week in college and four days a week in work, or with a with a training provider for one day. Or sometimes they're on a block release program, so they might be in work for a number of weeks and then go on a block of training for, say, a week or two at a college or training provider. Apprentices get paid a normal wage, so there is a basic apprenticeship wage, which is quite low, let's be honest. A lot of employers do pay their apprentices more than the standard apprenticeship wage, which is really important. And then there's other apprenticeships that actually are quite highly paid. So we've got apprentices from level two, which can be a lot of the kind of construction trades, automotive, healthcare, early years, those kind of entry level jobs right up to apprenticeships at level seven, which are senior leaders. And solicitors - really high level apprenticeships. There has been a little bit of change to funding recently, so some of those level seven apprenticeships are no longer going to be funded by the government but lots of the lower level ones are. And the reason for that really is, is to try and attract people into some of those entry level jobs, the level two and three apprenticeships, so that those who are out of the job market currently or furthest from the job market through unemployment, have got a route into employment with training as well, and and hopefully a long standing career alongside that.
Briony: I mean, Ruth has described an enormous breadth in apprenticeships. So presumably there is no such thing as a typical apprentice.
Lynn: No there isn't. Apprentices can come from many different backgrounds, very different circumstances. So, you know, we can sort of have an apprentice who will come from school, who's maybe made the decision that they don't want to pursue an A-level, uh, or they just want to end their time at school, and they're looking to find themselves at a career for life. There'll be opportunities where people will maybe be thinking further forward than just how they can earn money now. So there will also be people who maybe want to retrain, who've been in a job that they feel they'd like to gain a skill in something else so they can be different ages. You can as as Ruth has just said, you can have apprentices that will start at sixteen, and you can have apprentices that will also go up to, um, in the sixties or 70s. So there's no such thing. It's a common misconception that apprentices are young people leaving school. That is not the case. And a lot of people we find now are opting for apprenticeships just so that they don't have a level of debt as they're making their studies, because there's such a variety of apprenticeships now. You've got a big choice.
Briony: So you've mentioned misconceptions there. And I think, you know, do you find that there are some common misconceptions and misunderstandings about what an apprenticeship and therefore what an apprentice is?
Lynn: A lot of people have a misconception that when you're an apprentice, you're basically doing jobs like making the tea on a site. That is absolutely not the case because apprenticeships have changed significantly. What most apprenticeships you will find will have they'll be released for usually a day to attend college or a training provider. You can deliver actually in the workplace to an apprentice. You don't have to come in to training. There is a set programme of training and everybody is usually allocated a mentor so that as you're learning, you've got somebody alongside you who can give you that guidance as well as the work. So employers play a large part within apprenticeships just to make sure that that the people who are apprentices are gaining those skills and they're getting the experience they need to enable them to do that job at the end of their apprenticeship and probably an increase in their pay as their skills have increased.
Briony: Yeah, so I'm already fishing out from both what you and Ruth have said some enormous benefits of, um, both being an apprentice and taking on apprentices. What would you say are the key sort of bonuses for an individual to be in, to be an apprentice and take on an apprenticeship?
Lynn: The benefits for being an apprentice would be to earn as you learn, so you immediately start to earn money. You're actually not just learning or gaining skills. When you go into college or your training provider, you are actually gaining those skills every day. And that's set you head and shoulders above anybody who is just coming and doing that and going and going into a training environment. You can demonstrate those skills by the end of your apprenticeship training. And I just think it's, it's an all round better way to gain experience and to be able to actually prove that you can do that, be assured that you can do the job at the end of it.
Briony: Yeah. Proven was what sprang to mind. You're proven in the workplace – Ruth?
Ruth: Yeah. So I was just going to add, I think Lynn might have said earlier, but this one's massive, really is. Um, if you are an apprentice doing a degree apprenticeship as well, you have no student debt at all. So, you know, people coming out of A-levels or BTECs going to university, um, are paying their fees, which I think are nine and a half thousand a year now, aren't they? They've just gone up again. Um, and with an apprenticeship it's entirely free to the individual. So it's completely funded by, by the government and/or the employer. Um, so that that's a massive bonus to anybody rather than someone who's going to a full time university program. And as well as that, they're getting the hands on experience. While any apprentice really, um, at any level, is getting hands on experience and developing, you know, life skills, time management, decision making, increasing confidence, you know, working with others, learning to work in a team, All things that you can put on on your CV that are really valuable moving through your career, which is just huge for young people really, or anybody going into the workplace.
Briony: Huge number. And I'm looking at it from the other side. Um, now. So what would you say, uh, coming to you first Lynn because you must have conversations with employers about this all the time. What are the main what do you picture as the main benefits of taking on an apprentice?
Lynn: You are helping a young person to gain the skills that they need to forge a career for life. You are giving people a chance and opportunity. Some hope that they are going to be able to have a - you're helping them with their lifestyle in the future, and you are supporting them to to gain the skills that they need to to obviously go into employment. What we find with a lot of employers is that a young person will come and they'll be doing their training, and when they come back from training, they they will say, oh, we don't do it like that in college. We do this. Or have you thought about using something digitally? And we find that employers often get some benefit from apprentices. Apprentices making suggestions of things that they've seen whilst they were doing the training that can be used in the workplace. The significant majority of apprentices that we have, ninety eight percent, go on to employment either with the same employer or with another employer. As long as that apprentice has had quality training experience, they have gained the skills. They're head and shoulders above somebody who comes in with with a qualification. And that's not to downplay qualifications because of course they are important. But if you have that qualification alongside the skills, then you you are a real of real benefit to an employer.
Briony: Yeah. So I mean, for balance, we should also look at the challenges as well, presumably taking on both an apprenticeship as an individual and an apprentice. Um, both entail a huge amount of work and will come with come with a number of, if not challenges. A number of burdens on the individual or the employer. Um, how to um, I think we'll talk to Lisa in in a little while and find out about any elements of taking on an apprenticeship that you found particularly tough, but from a from a business side, what people find most challenging when taking on an apprentice.
Lynn: It's organising the workload sometimes, is difficult. So for example, if you have got a carpentry and joinery apprentice and you mainly fit doors and skirting boards, when you take an apprentice on before they'll be signed up, you have to know that you're going to cover the breadth of skills that need to be covered in the apprenticeship to make that young person or, uh, whoever you take on, ready to undertake that role. Sometimes things are as simple as coming along and saying, I've decided to have an apprenticeship apprentice and you need to set pay as you earn up. Think about setting that up because your apprentice, if you're if you're a small business and you don't have a payroll, you do need to have a payroll in place to set the apprentice up. Thinking about who's going to mentor that apprentice because they're a day, a college, let's say, and they're eighty percent in the workplace. You can't leave the apprentice, you know, to just get on. You you have to mentor that apprentice. And whilst that's very easy to if you have a workforce and if you're working alongside the apprentice, it's easy to accommodate. It does need to take some, it does need to have some thought behind it, so that you can be sure that that apprentice has the support that that he or she needs to to get there to complete the apprenticeship.
Briony: Yeah, I'm sure. And is that something that you, as a college offer support to employers on?
Lynn: Yes, we have a business development team who will go out and support employers with all of that, with how much, um, wages have to be paid. Signing up of contracts and things. And they'll also advise employers because the other benefit that there is is there are other grants available. If you take a sixteen to eighteen year old on, you get one thousand pounds from the government. Um, but also there are other organisations that give grants and particular local authorities that will give grants to support employers taking on apprenticeships. There's also a benefit really, as well, a lot of procurement that is in place now in the North West is on the condition of employers taking an apprentice on. So, you know, we go and offer help with that.
Briony: And just to localize this a bit, and bring this to the North West where you're located.
Lynn: So we have, um, a significant number of healthcare apprentices because that that is a it's a huge area nationally. So we we have a lot we we saw our healthcare apprentices when I joined here nine years ago go from six apprentices. And we've trained in excess of four hundred and thirty apprentices with five different trusts. And that continues to to grow and healthcare apprentices, people will think of traditional, but not only of the traditional nursing type routes. There are also administration. There's also HR, those sorts of apprenticeships. And we've just introduced one in one of the trusts, which is um, for cleaning apprenticeships, which obviously infection prevention and control and sustainable methods of cleaning are high priorities here. So that's something we've seen grow as well as some teaching apprenticeships for people who are ward managers or doctors who are having to mentor people with it that they're in charge of. So we've seen that grow. Our one we’re pioneering at the minute is a highway maintenance apprenticeship, because there's huge growth in construction within the North West area. So our growth we see a lot in here. So what we're looking at the moment is highway maintenance groundworks. We're looking at all of those. We do have a lot of traditional apprenticeships like carpentry and joinery, electrical. So there's there's a lot. But again all linked to construction trades.
Briony: Yeah I mean it sounds Ruth it sounds like Lynn seeing a huge increase in numbers taking up apprenticeships and in different areas of apprenticeships are thriving. Is that something that we're seeing nationally that numbers are rising both in terms of apprentices and apprenticeship areas on offer?
Ruth: I think it's, um, It's hit and miss really. So I think we've gone through phases of apprenticeships being really - so post Covid apprenticeship numbers went up quite a bit and then have dropped off and started to plateau a little bit. I think it depends on the area of the country you're in. So where, um, where Hugh Baird is in, in Bootle, in Liverpool. There is quite a lot of, um, construction and manufacturing going on around there. And there's a lot of work going on around, around the dock that I think is going to create more apprenticeships in the future. Um, and we've seen in the North West definitely a big upsurge in, in all courses, not just apprenticeships but certainly in construction is huge, um, engineering and manufacturing. There's a lot of that around the North West. You know, we've got a large aerospace, um, industry around here, lots of logistics, transport, manufacturing in the North West. And then we're seeing quite a lot more digital as well, which I think kind of a lot of them are done online. So doesn't really matter where the training provider or the college is because a lot of the learning is is done solely online. So apprentices can be anywhere in the country, don't really need to come to the college or the provider. And as Lynn was saying before, health and social care as well is growing, um, a lot. And I think that's mainly because a lot of the, the NHS trusts and also other healthcare providers are moving more into apprenticeships as a recruitment model as opposed to other other routes in through other methods of recruiting staff. Um, so that one's definitely growing as well.
Briony: What do we know about apprentices next steps? Because presumably there's an option to do a higher level apprenticeship sometimes, or to um, or to just go into employment and move away from apprenticeships for a while.
Ruth: We see quite a lot of apprentices, especially in health, that are moving through the levels, um, early years as well. Some that start at level two go on to level three and onto onto level four, some into teaching. Health definitely a ladder up from level two to three and four and onwards. We're seeing construction, not so much, I'm going to say usually if people do a level two or level three in, in a trade, you know, plumbing, carpentry and joinery, bricklaying, plastering, those kind of things, they tend to do their apprenticeship and then go into employment, not necessarily move onwards. Some might do go into, you know, site supervision, but most will do their apprenticeship and then work in their trade. So I think it depends on the sector really. Um, and if you'd agree with that, Lynn, from what you see nodding away, does that sound familiar?
Lynn: Does sound absolutely familiar. We have a lot of people in level two construction, but very few go on to level three because that's supervision. But in healthcare it healthcare is is so good, and also childcare as well. To be fair at seeing those seeing people progress through those levels, as Lisa is a testimony to.
Briony: Just before, I'm going to bring in Lisa in a second. Go on. I really want to hear from someone who's actually on the coalface taking one of these apprenticeships. Um, but just before we do, I'd really love to touch on learners with special educational needs and disabilities. Um, and a different group of of learners from more disadvantaged backgrounds. And, um, hear from you, Lynn. I suppose in terms of what, um, what opportunities, um, are, are accessible to them and how apprenticeships might, might be a good step for people joining from those, um, those groups.
Lynn: Yeah. I think apprenticeships are a really good step for people from those groups. So when you start an apprenticeship, you somebody will sit down with you and have a look at what skills you've got already, and they'll try and look at where you are. And that's a that's an interview that happens one to one. And then you get an opportunity then to talk about any additional support needs that you may have, whatever they are. And from whatever background you come from and what what we would do then is we can put support into place. We have a dedicated student support team and we can make those concessions. We have funding that supports people who may need a little bit of help to get there. If it's a trade, tools and materials, we have people that you can come and talk to if you feel things are getting overwhelming. So you've literally got your employer and you've also got your college or training provider that you can go to for that additional support. We have learning support teams here that will know about people's additional support needs, and we can put things in place to make sure that those needs are met, both in the classroom and in the workplace. We work hand in hand with employer. So it's it's quite a good opportunity for you to be able to talk to somebody one to one and say, look, I need this or I'm struggling and I need this sort of support. I think people we find here, they they perform extremely well compared to those who who don't have any additional support needs, because you've got that one to one assistance, there's always somebody you can go to that will help you through.
Briony: Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. It sounds like a fabulous option. Um, Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, I mean, I'm going to jump straight in, and I'd love to hear just why you chose, um, the apprenticeship that you did and why you chose an apprenticeship at all.
Lisa: I suppose, um, I chose an apprenticeship when I first started with the NHS trust. I've always been a carer, even in the community. It was something that I've always wanted to be. I've always wanted to be a nurse. So I took the apprenticeship from level two to level five. It's given me confidence, something I thought I'd never be able to do in my life. I left school when I was fourteen. It's been amazing to me all the way through if I've ever needed anything supported me.
Briony: I mean, we spoke earlier about, um, apprentices then being in the workforce with proven skills. And you spoke about confidence, and those two seem to go hand in hand. I mean, you're you're doing what you're learning in the workplace every single day. And that just must be an enormous confidence boost that you just, you know, that you're you know, that you can do the job because you've proven to yourself that you can. How are you finding it? I mean, working and studying side by side must bring some challenges.
Lisa: A couple of months ago, I was off with health problems. I had a bit of a cancer scare. So we had to have operation. I could say some of the pressures in work when you can't get off to come to college. But when you get it structured down, you’re fine.
Briony: Yeah. I mean, the balance, um, that Lynn and Ruth have spoken about of the the four days working and one day studying model is that is does that ring true for you? Is that how your week is balanced? Do you find that, um, you can entirely wrap up your study in one day. Or do you find that the study’s on your mind while you're at work and it's difficult to?
Lisa: Yeah, the study is worrying about it's always there. And like you say, your weekends that you've got free, you do study, but at the end of it it is worth it. I do applied biological science, health and social care lifespan through my job because I'm a assistant practitioner with the alcohol team at Aintree, and it goes great into all the fundamental nursing practices that we do.
Briony: And is it continuous assessment along the way or do you have an assessment at the end?
Lisa: I have an assessment at the end, which is face to face observations.
Briony: And what's next for you when you breeze through that? What's next for you?
Lisa: I want to be a nurse. I want to continue and be a nurse and give back to what the hospital gives to me when I was younger.
Briony: And the connections that you've made during your apprenticeship are those do you feel that those have placed you well for looking for that, that permanent employment post apprenticeship?
Lisa: Uh, yes. You do. Um, they do. It's a I think it's a year like a top up, which you get more into giving out medication and stuff. And that's the only part I need to become a nurse.
Fiona: Can I just interject? I'm Lisa's tutor. Lisa and I have worked together, um, for the last six years. Um, Lisa first joined me on her level three apprenticeship. And you were working, um, within the clinical team as a HCA. Um, uh, within the hospital. Um, and from there and over, over her journey, Lisa has progressed to, I think you've got a distinction for your endpoint assessment on your level three. Um, she came back to me again to do her foundation degree assistant practitioner, having moved into the alcohol team and taking on additional responsibilities. And, you know, the difference in Lisa's confidence from when I very first met her and not particularly i her skills as a healthcare practitioner were always excellent and were always very, very evident. But what she's gaining across doing the foundation degree element is more enhanced knowledge within her scope of practice. Um, because the course very much focuses on where the individual is working within a team. And that seems to be something like within the NHS, looking at the NHS ten year plan and you know how they want to retain their experienced staff, but support them to upskill and to take on more responsible roles. Which she now works in independently across the hospital. She's, um, you know, managing her own caseload and supporting patients through their journey. Alcohol recovery, but also through the sort of the physical elements that, um, alcohol can, can cause for individuals. The idea being that that the, the teams will then get and, you know, a skilled practitioner within their area. So, so that, uh, you know what the, the, um, NHS teams appear to want to do is, is to have people at that band four level to be able to support the rest of the healthcare support team and bridge that gap between the practitioner and the healthcare team to to support, you know, really effective outcomes for the patients.
Briony: Yeah. And I think skilled practitioner just underpins everything that we've spoken about today, isn't it? Where you're, um, as an employer, you're not taking a risk because you've already got someone who's proven in that space. Yeah. I mean, Lisa, what a glowing testimonial. And what a great good news story, um, for both employers and apprentices alike. I can't think of a better way to leave our chat today. I want to thank everyone who's joined us. It's been incredibly enlightening for me, knowing very little about apprenticeships beforehand and that portal into the world of apprenticeships. And I'm sure it's been the same for all of the listeners. And to everyone listening, thank you as ever for joining us, and we'll see you at the next Ofsted talks.
