Using neurological conditions to discover where in the brain, body, or mind, the self is located.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness of biweekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm Lisa Kiefer and today my guest is annealed onion to Swami. He's the author of the new book, the man who wasn't there investigations into the strange new science of the cell. Welcome to the program. And Neil. Thank you. Lisa. What [00:00:30] inspired you to examine the self by way of touring these neurological disorders that you talk about in the book that disrupt the self?
Speaker 2:Um, I think that the inspiration just came from trying to understand the nature of the self. It's something that I've been interested in, uh, for quite a long while you're from India, I'm from India and maybe that has something to do with it because the, the major religions that come from India, Hinduism and Buddhism, um, [00:01:00] they're sort of philosophical. Uh, leanings are, have a lot to do with understanding the nature of the self. Right. And you start the book off with this beautiful ancient Buddhist parable. Yeah. If it's a story about a man whose body parts are entirely replaced by body parts taken from a corpse by two ogres that are trying to eat the corpse. Uh, and so after the Ogres have basically replaced, uh, you know, this man, [00:01:30] poor man's legs and arms and torso and everything with the body parts from that of a corpse, they leave and he's left wondering is he the same person that he was before?
Speaker 2:Uh, if, you know, is the body that he has now, the one that, uh, is his, I mean, it's basically questions, uh, to do with the nature of the self, you know, am I my body and a, if I'm not, then who am I? And things like that. Let's talk about that. What do you mean when you talk about the word self? Intuitively I think we're all kind of aware of [00:02:00] what that means to us. Uh, as I write in the book, it's some, it's something that comes about when we wake up. You know, it's what you call the phenomenal, the phenomenal self, the feeling of being a self. It's there when we wake up. It kind of goes away when we fall asleep. Uh, reappears in our dreams. Uh, so that's one way of thinking about it. But then if you start breaking it down, there's the notion of the bodily self, the feeling of being here and now like for instance, you and I are sitting on a chair right now.
Speaker 2:We have this feeling of being a body, occupying a volume of space that is [00:02:30] taken up by the body. It's a perception of a physical body. The, yeah, the feeling of having a bodily cell. Also having a perspective on the world that seems to emerge from behind our heads and this feeling that we have that all the perceptions that we are having are being had, are private to us. What you are seeing, you have the sense that it's happening to you, not to anyone else. And then there's the narratives of the story that we are in our own heads and the story that we tell others when if someone were to ask you, who are you, you're going to give them a kind [00:03:00] of a narrative. You talk about that spans time, that's past, present and future. Yeah. So you said you can bring up a, your, you know, earliest memories or you can imagine yourself in the future and all of those things.
Speaker 2:And we have this feeling that they're the same person or there's this underlying unity to everything that we are in terms of our story. So all of these things go towards making up our sense of self. The reason why I started looking at sort of neuropsychological conditions that disturbed the self is because you start getting a [00:03:30] clue about how the brain might be putting together some of these neuro processes to create this unified sense of being a self. We've learned a lot about the brain for instance, by looking at situations where some people unfortunately have had strokes or some kind of trauma to their brain, had some damage to the tissue and also have had some loss of functionality. And by correlating what has been lost in terms of their behavior and correlating that to the loss of tissue, uh, you can understand how the different parts of the brain might be doing.
Speaker 2:And in some sense looking at neuropsychological [00:04:00] conditions that damage the self in some way or changed his health. And I don't only use the word damage because it's, you know, it kind of signifies something negative, but just changes how one feels about one's health. You can start piecing together the puzzle of how the brain might be constructing this unified sense of oneself. Your chapters are broken down by neurological condition and every chapter is amazing because you actually talk about individuals who you have met and worked with. Let's start with Cottar Syndrome. That's got to be one [00:04:30] of the most strange and rare. It is indeed very stringent. Then partly why I start the book with that condition is because it sets up the question, who am I? So in quartered syndrome, one of the strongest symptoms they have is this feeling of not existing. You know, they, they, they will tell their neurologist or psychiatrists that they are already dead or they don't exist.
Speaker 2:There are other, uh, symptoms that go with the syndrome, but that, that one is the most striking a symptom irrational. Like they, they can see their body [00:05:00] but they don't think they're alive. Oh they can feel their body and physiologically everything is fine. And so the, in fact I narrowed the story of one gentleman where the neurologist is asking him, you know, you can see me, you can hear me, you can understand me and the, and the patient says, yes I can. And so, and the neurologist says, well then your mind must be fine. And he says, yeah, my mind is fine. Well then he says, well if your mind is fine, surely the mind has something to do the brain and so your brain must be okay. And he says, no, my brain is dead. He claimed that his brain, he was brain dead.
Speaker 2:[00:05:30] You talk about the concept of vividness and the damping down. What part of the brain is active. There is a network of regions in the brain and part of it is something called the default mode network that are involved in awareness of our own internal self. So whether our weather awareness for body states or if we're daydreaming, then we were involved in self related thoughts and feelings. So this internal awareness network is something that was dumbed down in this patient when they, when the neurologist scanned him, they found that there was [00:06:00] considerably lowered metabolic activity in this network almost to the levels that are seen in, uh, what has been called the vegetative state. But by itself, that's not enough. He also had damage to the lateral parts of his frontal lobes, which are involved in rational thought. Because of that, it was likely that he was unable to have any kind of rational response to this very odd perception of not existing.
Speaker 2:And he couldn't shoot down his own irrational perception that he was dead or he was brain dead. The next chapter is about Alzheimer's [00:06:30] and, but one of the really interesting things about that chapter is yes, the narrative history is diminishing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't other self there. And you give a beautiful example of this man who goes to a synagogue. Yeah. So this, this example came from a researcher in Canada, a m P, r Kontos and the, she was studying, uh, elderly people at a care facility in Toronto. And she narrows how [00:07:00] this gentleman who had very severe Alzheimer's who could barely, you know, string a few words together, was standing in line to participate in a Jewish high holiday. So she was feeling tense about what he might do, but then, uh, you know, he goes to the podium and says a beautiful prayer and then comes back, you know, and she says that if you had taken him to his room and asked him to say the prayers, he wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 2:And when he came back that day, he was back to his back to his sponsor self. Exactly. You know, normally in Alzheimer's we think that [00:07:30] what is, you know, the self that is lost a is the cognitive or narrative self. And uh, you know, people pretty much say that once you lose that there is nothing left. And she points out that that's not entirely true. It's not just cognition, your narrative, your story is also embodied. And if the conditions are right, like for him in that situation, you know, uh, as she says it, uh, standing at the podium, uh, having the rabbi, his hand on the Torah and the congregation in front of him, all of that kind of elicited a response. And so it was [00:08:00] embodied, I mean, when one says embodied, obviously the brain is also involved, but there is, it's much more complex.
Speaker 2:It's a different kind of memory and it's a different kind of, uh, cell food. It's not just something you consciously recall and, and tell stories about, but it's something that's part of you. It's, it's, you know, if you think about riding a bicycle, if you learn to ride a bicycle when you were four years old, that's part of the narrative. Whether you consciously tell someone who I can ride a bicycle or not, it's part of who you are. But that's an embodied skill. If [00:08:30] you try to consciously think about riding a bicycle, you will probably won't be able to do it. It's just something that your body and brain together do. And that's, and that's part of your cell phone. So all those things. And there's a story, there's an anecdote about Aaron Copeland, the composer, and he, uh, had, uh, you know, severe dementia towards the end of his life and couldn't remember where he was while he was standing at a street corner.
Speaker 2:But you know, the story goes that if you would stand him in front of his orchestra, he could conduct his orchestral suite, the Appalachian Spring, I mean, so this researcher in Canada, [00:09:00] peer punters, she argues that sulfur is not just a cognitive thing. There is a whole aspect of it that is embodied your cognitive narrative self would, might be gone, even your embodied self would, might go away eventually. But yeah, the question is, is there still a minimal, so is there still someone capable of feeling sensations as if it's happening to them even though them in this case doesn't refer to a person in the, in the regular sense of the word, but just something to beginning. Yeah. [00:09:30] And own the experience and experience that is still owned by some entity that feels like it's happening to itself. Another chapter in your book is about body integrity, identity disorder.
Speaker 2:They believed that a part of their body isn't theirs and they'll actually go to the extreme of amputation to get rid of it. So then they feel better. Yeah. And you tell a story about following this man to get an amputation. Yeah. So, uh, you know, this was a young man in his thirties. Uh, I met him before he had his amputation and, uh, you know, talk to him [00:10:00] about how he felt. And he was very, very convinced that part of his leg wasn't his, he seemed to be suffering. And I actually, like I, I followed him and, uh, was, uh, around when he got his amputation. And, uh, the extraordinary thing was, uh, I remember talking to the doctor, the surgeon who did the surgery and, uh, the surgeon said that, look, you know, normally if somebody has had an accident or some kind of trauma, and because of which they've had to have an amputation the day after the surgery, that [00:10:30] they're usually very depressed because they've lost a part of their body.
Speaker 2:And many people never fully get over the loss of limb or and as it should be because a part of your body has been lost. Whereas he said, when you meet this guy tomorrow after the surgery, you will be surprised at how quickly his open about, and that was exactly the case. Like within a day of the surgery he was crutching. You can only make so many judgements from the outside. I had to believe what he was telling me and he seemed to say that he felt complete, which is a really [00:11:00] paradoxical thing when you think about it because here's someone who has just lost a leg but now feels complete and so he tells us something about how opposite of Phantom limbs and it is. It is considered sort of a mirror problem of the phantom limbs. A Phantom limb is if somebody has had an amputation because of an accident, they will continue sometimes to feel the presence of the limb that they've lost and that's very clearly telling you that what you perceive in your mind in terms of what your body is is not the physical body, Europe peer [00:11:30] perceiving a representation of the body that the brain creates.
Speaker 2:The brain brain's primary job is to really keep the body in a physiologically viable state for survival, the homeostasis to control the body, et Cetera, and in order to do that it creates a representation of maps of the body. There are lots and lots of maps that the brain has off the body and what's interesting is what you perceive a, at least the Phantom Limb Syndrome seems to suggest or what you're perceiving are really the, the maps. You're not [00:12:00] perceiving the actual limb and actually feel the missing limb. You actually feel the missing limb as if it's there and nor I know of course if everything is working as it should, then the maps are completely congruent with the physical body. So in you are in some sense perceiving the physical body, but the Phantom Limb Syndrome tells you that you know when things don't go to plan you, you've had an amputation, but the maps in the brain have not reorganized to reflect the new body state.
Speaker 2:You will still continue feeling your limb and bid is kind of the opposite where [00:12:30] you you're, you have a physiologically viable limb, but for some reason the map is not quite accurate or hasn't been updated or hasn't developed as well as it should have and you end up feeling disruption in development. Could be no one quite knows the, you know why this condition arises. A, we only have snapshots of brains of people who are suffering from this condition when they already have it and there are certainly differences in brain regions that are responsible for mapping the body. Tell us about this rubber hand [00:13:00] illusion that our listeners could actually do this. I mean this will illustrate, you're very right. The rubber hand illusion will illustrate this point really well. You can go to a Amazon and buy yourself a rubber hand, which a four $5 it looks pretty much like the real hand sit down on a table put say say your left hand on the, on the table in a relaxed manner.
Speaker 2:Put the rubber hand next to it and put a screen between the two so that the rubber hand, which is closer to you is the only thing that you can see [00:13:30] and you can't see your real hand. Have someone take two pain pressures, hand brush, both your real hand and the rubber hand synchronously meaning at the same location on each at the same time at the same time. Exactly right. So that, so that you're feeling the touch on your real hand, but you're seeing the brush moving on the rubber hand and for about two thirds of the people participating in this experiment, they will feel something very extraordinary. Within about two minutes. They will suddenly feel the touch of the brush and they will actually feel the touch [00:14:00] at the location of the rubber hand and they will lose the sensation of touch from the real hand.
Speaker 2:So it's brain is saying the rubber hand is your hand. Yeah. So the brain is being fed conflicting information. The brain is being fed visual information that seems to tell the brain that, oh, the touch is actually happening at the location of the rubber hand because choose which one. It so happens that a vision for us is more important than touch. So what vision is telling the brain will override the sensation of touch. And if it was the other way [00:14:30] around and the solution wouldn't have worked. We are visual creatures and we will kind of prioritize vision over most other sensations. So, uh, the brain seems to say, oh, it must be the case. That rubber hand is my real hand and it actually takes ownership of the rubber hand. And this is, you know, this is something you can do at home, but it's extraordinary.
Speaker 2:What a simple experiment like this can reveal about our sense of bodily self and that we are a construct. This actually tells you how does the brain create a sense of your own body. What it does is it takes all the various [00:15:00] sensations that are coming from the outside and from within the body and kind of integrates all these sensations to create a sense of being inbody to create a sense of ownership of the physical body. Multisensory integration. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, so a lot of this happens in places like the temporal parietal junction and there are a few other areas like this in the brain that are responsible for integrating different kinds of sensations and you know, and, and the sensations that we're familiar with like vision and touch and you know, sound, all those things but are also things like propioception, [00:15:30] which is the sense we have of our body in three dimensional space.
Speaker 2:So like if you close your eyes and hold out your hand, you still know exactly where your hand is. Uh, and that's because there are receptors in our joints and tendons and you know, which are feeding information to the brain about where our body is that the balance sensation. So the balance is vestibular. So there's a different set of uh, you know, sensations which come from the vestibular system, which is telling the brain about the orientation of the body relative to gravity, all these [00:16:00] various sensations. It's extremely complicated. But what's amazing is that the brain takes all these various sensations and integrates all of them to create our sense of being in a body. And the rubber hand illusion tells you how to disrupt that. Like you can fool the brain by giving it Iranians input and the brain is still trying to integrate it and trying to make sense of the inputs and it's because it's trying to make sense of erroneous input that you ended up having the delusion.
Speaker 2:Next three chapters of your book are all about conditions that disrupt the [00:16:30] predictive regions of the brain. And that includes schizophrenia, depersonalization, and even autism. In schizophrenia, you talk about the disruption of the sense of agency. Yeah. So sense of agency is something we are implicitly aware of and we probably never think about it. So if you were to pick up something that's lying in front of you, say a glass of water, you have a sensation that it's you doing this. If I am lifting this cup of water, it turns out that the brain has actually got to construct this feeling. So in schizophrenia [00:17:00] for instance, a, it can so happen that the person picks up the glass of water, but then it doesn't have this feeling that I picked up the glass of water because there's a disruption in the neuro processes that are responsible for constructing the sense of agency.
Speaker 2:So what has happening, your brain is sending out motor commands to your arm in order to sort of lift a cup of water. But simultaneously it's sending the same comments to other brain regions which are predicting the sensory consequences of doing that action. And then when you do the action, you will have sensory feedback. [00:17:30] For instance, if it's a Cold Cup, which is your, your hands will feel the coldness of the cup, but the brain has already predicted that that's how it should feel. And then the brain compares the prediction with the actual sensations. And if the two match, it basically decides, oh, that's me doing it. And so the sense of agency is in this model, the outcome of a comparison between the predicted sensations that should happen because you'd do something and the actual sensations, if they match implicitly it's you doing it. If they don't match, then that action was not something [00:18:00] you initiated.
Speaker 2:So there is no sense of agency to do with that action. Well, let's talk a little bit about the individuals who feel like someone is telling them to do something often. Something very negative. Yeah. So, uh, you know, in schizophrenia and people hear voices and now hearing voices is actually not that uncommon. Even people don't have schizophrenia, we'll hear voices. But what happens in schizophrenia is a, the voices seem to not belong to them. There they feel like voices, other people in their heads and, and the voices also sometimes have an overtly [00:18:30] negative tone about them. They're, they're fearful. What is happening in the brain to cause that, you know, the circus that are involved in mind wandering. We basically have a lot of uh, sort of unwilling mind-wandering that we indulge in. And somehow there's hyperconnectivity between those areas of the brain and the auditory parts of the brain that generate sound and the connections to the auditory cortex are somehow these unwilling thoughts become audible.
Speaker 2:But then there's also some sort of disruption in [00:19:00] the circuits in the brain that make something feel like your own. Like just like we talked about right now, uh, this comparative mechanism that is supposed to tell us that some, if something is happening within us, if we are the agents of those actions, and again, that mechanism seems to be disrupted. So you end up having thoughts that turn into sounds, but then those sounds don't feel like your own. So you end up having, you know, voices in your head that feel like there are somebody else's negative [00:19:30] piece of that. So there seems to be some hyperconnectivity between areas like the Amygdala, which are known to be related to the fear response. Again, paranoia and paranoia. So, and that might be culture specific though. It's not yet clear whether that would be true across all cultures because there's some evidence that, you know, hearing voices and cultures that, uh, in Africa for instance, are not regarded as negative.
Speaker 2:So if the culture doesn't regard it as negative, then maybe the response that the person has is not as negative. Someone [00:20:00] with depersonalization you say is that can be anxious so deeply in deep personalization, what's happening is they themselves don't feel reels. They feel very strange from their own body states and their own emotions. So there's a kind of distance. It's kind of a very unfeeling date that they enter. They feel unreal. I mean, so if, if the default state for all of us is the feeling of being real because we are so tightly connected to our body states and our emotions, and then if, if for instance, for some reason you start feeling like your distance from your own [00:20:30] body states and emotions, that then leads to this feeling of unreality, derealization and depersonalization. And when it happens, it can actually be quite scary.
Speaker 2:And if it becomes chronic, it's very debilitating because normally that's not how you should be feeling. Right. The body is really crucial to our sense of self. They narrowed another situation where the psychiatrist tells his a patient who is a good tennis player to play tennis and when he would be playing tennis his State would alleviate cause [00:21:00] he would be so attentive to his body because of the tennis that he was playing that his condition would lessen. But then as soon as he stopped playing, it will come back for another person that I write about in the book, he would talk about how when he was playing drums his condition would kind of feel much, much more bearable because certainly because drumming involved, you know, both legs and both arms. He had to really pay attention to his body being obsessed about how he is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So in some sense a really paying attention to [00:21:30] the body in, in whatever form, whether it's athletics or yoga or you know, whatever it takes. You talk about autism spectrum disorder, you say that by studying autism we have been been able to find out more about the theory of mind. What is that theory of mind is a disability instinctive ability. We all have to infer someone else's state of mind. When you look at somebody and you watch their facial expressions or hand movements or whatever it is that they might be doing, you kind of have [00:22:00] this instinctive sense about what might be happening in their mind. So if you can say we are able to read other people's minds in a very loose sense of the word. It turns out that you know, people suffering from autism have problems with theory of mind.
Speaker 2:They're unable to have the same instinctive ability to infer other people's mind or what's happening in other minds as quickly as you would otherwise. And they have to then resort to cognitively making sense of someone you know, instead of it being an instinctive response, they have to work [00:22:30] it out. Again, I talk about one when one patient who talks about this problem that he would face if he was in a crowd of people and trying to figure out what someone is thinking for him was harder than like half an hour of doing calculus. The reason is because every minute is a surprise. Whereas we get, we get used to things, we predict things their predictive ability has gone. That's one theory that's been put forward by a group of researchers who argue that, you know, what might be happening in autism is that the brain's ability to [00:23:00] predict what's going to happen next again, which is something, uh, you know, like we just talked about for schizophrenia and sense of agency.
Speaker 2:The brain seems to be constantly doing that. It seems to be anticipating what's going to happen as based on a information it already has about the world and it's, you know, the body and you know, once on self. And basically this ability to predict is what helps us navigate the world. And it might be that in, in autism what's happening is this ability to predict and anticipate something is impaired. [00:23:30] So any sensation, anything that a person with autism is encountering seems every time to be fresh and new. So they're constantly work. It is a lot of work because example of a child who is maybe five years old and wants to go outside their will, they put their shoes, socks on, they go outside, but an autistic child doesn't necessarily know to put on the shoes and socks to go outside if the weather is inclement and you can have the situation that a child might have to be told every time that all you have to put on, you know, warm clothes before you go [00:24:00] out and somehow it's new every time.
Speaker 2:After reading that Chapter I, it helped me to see it completely differently and I think it's going to change the way I behave around people who I know are aspergers or what, you know, whatever [inaudible] scale. I completely agree with you. I think it really is important to understand what might be happening in other mines, you know, because that is their phenomenal self. That is how they are and that's how they experienced themselves. And it's not something that can just say get over it. The last part of your book, the [00:24:30] most captivating condition that you encountered was ecstatic epilepsy. But you also talk about out of body experiences, doppelgangers and the minimal self, the doppelganger. You had a cousin who son who unfortunately has passed away but actually experienced the doppelganger cause these conditions all come under the rubric of what's called arthroscopic phenomena and based you know out of body experiences, our experiences where you seemingly leave your own body and look at your own body from some other vantage points [00:25:00] from near the ceiling.
Speaker 2:Looking down a doppelganger effect is when you, when someone sees a double in front and start interacting with this double. So your sense of being in the body like which is normally what we all have of being in a physical body can start switching between being in the physical body and being in the illusionary body that you are seeing in front of you and it can switch back and forth in rapid succession. That's where my cousin's son actually, he was suffering from epilepsy and had a tumor and it must have been a consequence of that. He was driving [00:25:30] one day and certainly he pulled over and called his mom, my cousin and said, Mama, I'm seeing myself in front of me. And uh, it was very frightening. What was the manifest in this particular case as he felt like his duplicate was actually very sad and it was kind of regretting the life that had been lived in some sense.
Speaker 2:So I think it was a manifestation of his own emotions being fear maybe of having a brain tumor. Did he know he had a two man he knew, he knew. Let's talk about ecstatic epilepsy because it's very intriguing [00:26:00] because it too is very paradoxical. You have heightened self-awareness, but you're also blending into a oneness with the universe. That's like an LSD experience or start to get with Lipsey in terms of the brain regions involved our a, there is some correlation with what happens when you take psychedelic substances. Probably meditation or probably meditation too. And so what's happening at ecstatic epilepsy is use. You start feeling your own body and the immediate environment very vividly. So [00:26:30] the one guy I talked to said it was like, you know, before the epileptic seizure he was seeing the world and to d and suddenly everything popped into three D as a metaphor.
Speaker 2:The sense of time slows down like a seizure might last one or two seconds. You know, people feel like a long time as passed. And then there's also this a very interesting sense of certainty that they have about the world around them, that everything is as it should be. It's happening in, in the insular cortex. It's particularly in the left anterior insula, which seems to be the brain region that's a [00:27:00] very involved in again, integrating all the external internal sensations to create a subjective sense of your own body. That part of the region goes into overdrive during the seizure. So it's a paradox, but it can be explained why are these conditions disrupted? Do scientists know there are going to be genetic predispositions to all these conditions, but there are also going to be environmental reasons for it. For instance, the personalization is correlated with a abuse during childhood, but then [00:27:30] it's also true that there are children who have been abused who don't suffer from the personalization, so there has to be also a certain genetic predisposition and when all these situations, I think it's going to be some combination of nature and nurture and it's very hard to disentangle how much nature and how much nurture is involved.
Speaker 2:It seems like we are becoming more of an individualistic society versus collective. That combined with, you know, this sort of fragmentary attention span. Is there any correlation between that and a rise [00:28:00] in these kinds of conditions? These are all new things that are beginning to, I mean you really need longitudinal studies over a long length of time to actually scientifically say something. But again, you know, anecdotally it's not, it wouldn't be surprising if you, if you think of the fact that the sense of being a bodily self is very important to how healthy you feel about your own cell. Well, if all you do is sit in front of a screen and really not pay attention to your body, that is going to have an impact. Negative or positive is up to the culture [00:28:30] to figure out, but it is going to change how one feels about oneself.
Speaker 2:How did this book change you? Um, I think this book is just a part of a ongoing journey. I mean I became a science writer primarily to start paying attention to the world. I felt like as a software engineer I was, you know, sitting in front of my computer and writing code. Uh, I found myself wanting to pay much more attention to my own world and which involved writing. And so in some sense this is a, this is an ongoing process. I feel [00:29:00] like this continues the journey that I'm on, which is just paying attention. Why is it crucial that we learn more about the self? You know, this is what we are, you know, whatever your sense of self is at any point in time. The phenomenal self, the way you feel about yourself or the way you feel, whatever you are is going to govern behavior.
Speaker 2:And, uh, if you don't see it through the fact that a lot of these aspects of yourself are constructed, that you can actually distance yourself. If you don't see that, then you just basically become whatever that is. And if in in [00:29:30] situations where it's a narcissistic self, then you're obviously going down a very dangerous partner just for yourself, but for society. And we see evidence of that all around us. I think a, and so in some sense, I think it's very important to see what we are so that we can pull back a little bit, then it's malleable. We can change. Absolutely. That's the positive part. Yes. Thank you for being on this program. Uh, Neil, I, I read this book twice. I found it so fascinating. I'm interested in what you're going to do next. Well, thank you for having me on the show. It's been a [00:30:00] pleasure.
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