Host Lisa Kiefer interviews public school teacher, mother, and author Brook Pessin-Whedbee about her new book Who Are You? The Kid's Guide to Gender Identity. Brooke is an active member of the Gender Spectrum community that celebrates gender diversity and whose mission is to create a gender-inclusive world for all children and youth. She artfully introduces children to gender in her book and shows how people can bend and break the gender binary and stereotypes.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next.
Speaker 2:You were listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing Brook Pason wed [00:00:30] Westby. She's the author of who are you the kid's guide to gender identity. We'll be talking about her book and the gender identity spectrum.
Speaker 1:Okay,
Speaker 3:welcome to the program. Thanks. I'm really glad to be able to talk to you. [00:01:00] Yes, I really enjoyed your book for children called who are you, the kid's guide to gender identity. What age group are you targeting? So I'm an elementary school teacher. I work in Berkeley public schools and I wrote this book mainly for elementary school kids, although there are lots of preschool teachers who are now using it with their students. So I would say from three on up. Okay. And I understand you've had a lot of success. How many printings are you at now? Well, we're on our second printing now. The first print [00:01:30] run actually ran out faster than the publishers anticipated. So we just had a second print run of 5,000 and those are just coming into bookstores now, which is really great. And congratulations. You've chosen a topic, gender identity, which is a lot more common in people's vocabulary now than it used to be.
Speaker 3:What was your personal reason for writing a book like this? Sure. So I, I have been an elementary school teacher for, for many years and in Oakland and in Berkeley and as a teacher [00:02:00] and as a parent, I've known many, many kids who don't fit into the gender boxes and, and none of us really fit totally into the gender boxes. But, um, what was happening a couple of years ago, I had a second grade class where here the kids here in Berkeley, right at Rosa Parks Elementary. And my students were asking me a lot of questions and um, there was one day I'll remember, I'll never forget this day when we were walking across the playground. And I, I was just walking my line back to class, but I was hearing these [00:02:30] kids behind me. For my class, kind of in this great debate over the soccer game that was happening. And one kid was saying, oh my goodness, look at that shot.
Speaker 3:He's such a good, he's such a good soccer player. And another kid said, no, she's a girl. Look, she has long hair and she's wearing a dress. And they kind of went back and forth like arguing over this soccer player. And when we got back to the classroom and they looked at me and they said, well, teacher brook, what's, which is it? Is, is that a boy or a girl? And that brought up a whole lot more questions, right? Like how, how do you know if is a boy [00:03:00] or a girl and you know, can you assume things just by looking at people and what does that mean? If someone says they're not a boy or a girl? And so that was the day where I sort of decided, well, I need to really sit down and address this, you know, in a deeper way with my class.
Speaker 3:Well, what I found by reading your book is that I wish that it was forced on adults to read. Actually it is, I mean it's a kids book. It's a beautifully illustrated picture book that's really meant to. And is your cat writer Naomi barred off? Yeah, she did a wonderful job when we, [00:03:30] when we were planning the book, we wanted to make sure that the illustrations made it so that any kid could pick up the book and see themselves reflected in it. So, and I think she did a really lovely job of that. Um, so she had beautiful illustrations and, and really we wanted to target the youngest audience because, you know, I've been a kindergarten teacher for most of my teaching life that particular year I was teaching second grade. But you know, everything I do in my work is around translating big ideas into kid friendly terms.
Speaker 3:And so the target audience really was younger, you know, the [00:04:00] younger crowd. But like you said, it's, it's for adults too. I mean, I've had so many adults come to me and say, Gosh, I just, I'm not really sure how to talk about this with my kids. I, you know, I might understand it as, as an adult, there'll be able to talk to other adults about it. But what's the language like how do I answer my kid's questions? How do I, how do I, you know, talk about what do you remember Mike Children actually educated me about sexuality and gender. My generation, we really didn't get any of that in school or in your teacher training, [00:04:30] were you taught how to address the spectrum of gender? When did that start? So I actually was here at cow about 12 years ago. And I don't remember, I mean, it's terrible to say, but I don't remember if this came up at all at that time.
Speaker 3:I mean, I certainly didn't go into the classroom after that feeling like, oh, I know how to talk about gender diversity with kids. I mean, it was many years. I had, you know, one year I had the younger sibling of a transgender girl and you know, we kind of just started [00:05:00] thinking about what books were out there and wasn't a lot available. And then, you know, with my second grade class that day we were, we ended up at the door with them saying is, is that kid a boy or a girl? And I wanted to really get into that with them. I went home that night and I looked for books to help me kind of lead that discussion. And there w there were a lot of books. I mean I ordered 30 books that night off of Amazon and they were, many of them were very good, but none of them were just what I wanted because what I, what I was interested in [00:05:30] was a book that would help me with the language to talk about stories.
Speaker 3:And you know, stories are wonderful for kids and kids get to share their own stories through this book, but just giving the, the very simple language or they get so hooked into these stereotypes. You know, just back to your question about the teacher training. I don't remember going into the classroom feeling very well equipped and even as sort of an experienced teacher, I was scrambling for resources, which is why I then ended up, you know, I just said, now I'm going to have to write this book. Now I actually am a supervisor for [00:06:00] pre service teachers in the, in the developmental teacher at education program here. Is it just him fornia or is this something that's happening everywhere? Well, you know, I know that right now teach in teacher ed programs. I mean they are talking about it in the health classes. I mean I don't know nationwide, but I know the conversation, like you said, is much more sort of out in, it's in the media.
Speaker 3:It's, you know, kids are asking what does transgender mean and what, there's more than two or so many new words in our vocabulary about sexuality and gender and we should [00:06:30] just define some of these things for our audience. For those people who maybe don't understand what is the difference? Sexual orientation is who you go to bed with and gender identity is who you go to bed as. All right. That makes sense to me. So I've heard that a lot. A lot of people like to talk about that. And you know, one thing that comes up is, oh my goodness, we can't talk about sexual orientation with young kids. And we've for years in Berkeley have been talking about, you know, different family structures and that sort of how we address that [00:07:00] in, you know, for very young kids. But I think when you start talking about identity, people are even less comfortable, you know, knowing how to navigate all the different words that are out there.
Speaker 3:Right? And so what I mean, what I like to say is it's like learning a new language and once you practice and you get comfortable with the language, it, it becomes a little more fluent and, and it gets easier to talk about. So I think one thing I like about the book is that it offers people really simple language. Like if a kid's asking what does transgender mean? What I would say to a really young kid [00:07:30] is, well, when babies were born that they couldn't talk and said their grownups made a guess about their gender by looking at their body and sometimes the grownups guests, right. And you know, and this is practically directly from the book, sometimes grownups, guests, guest write about a baby's gender and that matches the way you know, their body matches the way they identify. And that would be cisgender.
Speaker 3:Um, and sometimes the grownups mega to guests and they weren't right. They get grownups guessed wrong and, and who [00:08:00] you know, who a kid knows they are inside their identity is different than, than what their body, you know, and today our science is so much better and we're able to know what's going on inside physically. And unfortunately maybe not when a baby is born, but I can envision some time where they're not going to hold up the baby and say it's a boy, it's a girl. They're just going to hold up the baby and say it's a lie baby. Right, right, right. Well then I think that also speaks to how our idea of gender is widening, right? They're [00:08:30] more than just two choices. And you know, this kind of gets into what does non-binary mean, which is, you know, Gender Queer, trans, you know, some of those words.
Speaker 3:And, and I don't like to identify, I don't like to, to define words necessarily because I think it's a really individual thing. And you'll talk to four different people that identify as non-binary and they'll have, they will all have a different way of describing themselves. So, you know, it gets a little tricky when you're about defining terms. But what I can say is that for words like non-binary, [00:09:00] I think we're all starting to understand that in many people have known this for for many, many years, but cultures across cultures across time, non-binary Trans folks have existed and have, have definitely known who they are. But I think in terms of our larger culture, and particularly for me as a teacher in a school, it's coming up a lot more. And I think the language that's helpful to use with young kids is just, there's more than two choices. There's more than two boxes, you [00:09:30] know, some people think that there are only two genders, but they're actually really many genders. And here are just some of the words that people are using in their so many more words that are being created faster than we can keep up.
Speaker 1:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:if you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay [00:10:00] area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Crook Pesan, Web B teacher and author of who are you the kids guide to gender identity. What is the approach you take? Can you walk us through?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the book, so the book is really, it's a nonfiction illustrated picture book. And so the idea is that there's no one character that has a story in it. Any kid that picks up the book, any person that reads the book can bring their own story to it. And so it's, [00:10:30] it's kind of divided into the different parts of gender. So your body, your expression, and your identity and it goes sort of chronologically through a person's life. When you're a baby, your body's sort of the leading factor that makes people get, make a guess about your gender. And so the whole First Section is about your body and how there's a difference between sex and gender and that some people get those confused. I like what you said about pink and blue that a hundred years ago boys wore pink and girls weren't right. So then the next [00:11:00] part is all about how we express ourselves.
Speaker 3:Right? And colors and toys and clothes and hair, all, you know, the way we act or mannerisms. All of those are things that that help us express ourselves. But those are also the things that, you know, society kind of puts us in boxes and says, you know, girls are supposed to wear pink and boys are supposed to wear blue. But you know, the example that you're talking about really brings up a lot around how that can change too. Right? You know, over time society has said, you know, only girls wear earrings and now we, [00:11:30] you know, many of us probably know a lot of men who wear earrings or a lot of yes. And anybody who loves him about um, this uh, movement in Japan kind of came out of anime where they're trying to basically say that gender doesn't matter. And so rock band, the boys are wearing female traditionally female outfit and makeup and yet they say they're boys.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I mean I think it's like saying at some point this isn't going to be important. Right. And I think in, you know, in the school setting, what we do a lot [00:12:00] of is we just talk about how clothes are just clothes. You know, some people say their boy clothes and girl clothes and it's, we walk into a store and we see a sign that says boys section and girls section, but really clothes don't have a gender, clothes are just clothes and people should get to wear what they feel comfortable wearing and express themselves however they want. And so, you know, kind of getting away from the idea that choice have a journey up, some of them French monarchs and the kind of female clothing, additional fee book. I mean there's a lot of ways that our gender boxes are getting broken, you know, historically and now just there's [00:12:30] a lot of ways that nobody really fits into the boxes that society is giving us for gender.
Speaker 3:And I think for kids who are feeling like, gosh, I don't really fit into this box, that can be really freeing to see that you don't have to fit into the box. You do get to be who whoever you are and express yourself instead of scorned. It's appreciated. Right. And I think classmates, exactly. And I think that is a huge, one of the huge goals of this book because a lot of the books that are out there right now have, you know, they're, they're wonderful books in there. Definitely [00:13:00] they help with the discussion around different people's experiences. But there's a lot of negativity and you know, the kids who are teasing other kids or the parents who are unsupportive. And I wanted this book to be all positive, all celebration because I, you know, if you don't fit into the gender boxes, that is not just, okay, it's, it's wonderful.
Speaker 3:It's something to be celebrated and it, you know, I think we can learn a lot from kids who are also involving parents in this discussion when you do it. Oh absolutely. I mean I've been doing parent education nights with [00:13:30] Albany School district. There's family literacy night challenges of that or have you had any yeah, I mean I think truthfully I haven't had a lot of challenge yet. I mean, I know it's out there, you know, we're in a wonderful, the bay area is a wonderful place to be and there are still, there's, you know, I think parents feel concerned, you know, kids are too young to talk about this. I would argue that kids that are talking about gender from the time that they can talk, I mean they're, they have messages around genders, you know, from a very young age. So [00:14:00] they're already talking about it as, as adults, as parents and teachers, we just get to decide if we want to be part of that conversation or not because they're having the conversation.
Speaker 3:So that's one of the big sort of concerns that I hear frequently is we can't talk about this with kids. I mean also it's like, well how do we talk about this with kids? You know, there are parents who might want to be talking about what does transgender mean, but they don't necessarily know how. So I think really just kind of supporting people to learn the new language is, you know, is Kinda [00:14:30] one of the ways to help parents who are feeling maybe a little bit nervous and it gives them a lot of time before puberty sets in to plan. I mean, or to think about how they will approach it. I mean, I think one other thing that comes up a lot is that I can really see the difference between folks who know someone who is transgender or non-binary and people who don't.
Speaker 3:Because I think once you have a personal connection with someone, you know someone's story, you can relate on a human level and then it's not [00:15:00] so sort of sensationalized or, or for. Exactly. And so I think one thing that is nice about this book is it really encourages people to tell their own story. And on the website of the book, the book has a website, kid's guide to gender.com and there's a part where you can tell your story. And I really have been encouraging people to share their stories because I think as soon as you start to hear people's personal stories, it, it becomes a little more understandable. Oh yeah. Kids, I mean, I've been getting teens from Minnesota [00:15:30] have written in, we've got, you know, parents who have said, gosh, I took this to my child's preschool thinking that it would be great for the kids to learn from.
Speaker 3:But then it turns out one of the teachers said, Oh Gosh, I'm, I'm transgender and I have never really known how to talk about this with my students and this is my access point. So yeah, lots of really wonderful stories from let's get back to the book. Yeah. You get to a color wheel. Yes. So it starts off with the part about your body and then it goes into the part about expression and all the different ways there are to express yourself and then [00:16:00] it gets into the part about identity and how some people's identity matches with, you know, what their grownups thought when they were born. And sometimes it doesn't. So it kind of the difference between what it means to be cisgender or to be non-binary or transgender or trans. And it goes through all the different words around, um, all the different gender expansive words, all the, the gender diverse terms that are out there.
Speaker 3:And then at the end, you know, the last page of the books is there's lots of ways to be a boy. There's lots of ways to be a girl, there's lots of ways to be a kid. And that's sort of the, [00:16:30] the message that be who you are. The wheel at the end of the book was actually the reason that I wrote the book because I wanted to have a really concrete tool for kids, so that message at the end, there's lots of ways to be a kid can sometimes be x abstract for kids and so the gender wheel makes it really concrete. There's three different wheels that you can turn and you can mix and this is a real physical, like a color wheel. It's raining, it's a rainbow. It's like a color wheel. In this, the center wheel says I have [00:17:00] and it's about your body.
Speaker 3:So I have a body that made the grownups guess, boy, I have a body that made the grownups guess girl. I have a body that made the grownups say we're not sure. And then the the next wheel is the identity wheel. I am and it says, I am a boy, I am a girl. I am both. I am neither. There's it's a can, whatever. Right? There's, there's so many different terms there. At one, one of the lines says, I am not sure there's a blank line. You can fill in the blank. If the like that you've left a lot [00:17:30] of blanks in there as well. Well there's no way I could possibly have captured every word and there are new words out there that I don't even know about. So I wanted to make sure that with a blank line you get to fill in however you do, identify whatever words you use to describe yourself.
Speaker 3:There's a place for that. And then the last real is your expression. So it says, I like so the, the order is I have, I am, I like, and it really just keeps it simple. My body, my expression, my identity and my body, my identity, my expression and a lot of kids, [00:18:00] the way we've been using the, the gender wheel in the classroom is that we'll take other books. So we'll take, I am jazz for example, and kids will get to put jazz on the wheel and say, Oh, jazz has a body that made the grownups guess, boy or girl. I know Ferdinand is wonderful to him. Virginia is a great, you know, and that's one of the older, that's one of the oldest books on my, on my recommended book list there. I mean I think that was sort of the original story where it was saying you don't have to be who other people want you to be. You get to be yourself [00:18:30] and, and I think that's one of the central messages of the book too is you are who you say you are. Other people don't tell you who you are. You're the one that knows you best. Yeah. Those are lines directly from the book.
Speaker 2:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to the method to the madness. Weekly Public Affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Brook Pesan Web beat [00:19:00] teacher and author of who are you the kids guide to gender identity.
Speaker 3:I thought about approaching this from a puberty level. Another book because let's face it, at puberty your body starts to change and the changes may not agree with what you think you are gender wise. You know, like in Holland they are doing studies of putting off puberty with hormones which have been really successful, which allows a kid [00:19:30] to to figure it out. Yeah. And have you thought about doing something a little farther down? Oh, they're kids. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I actually have thought about sort of the next book that I want to be writing and more so than thinking about kids who are older. I'm more thinking about kind of sticking with the younger crew and, and thinking about the non-binary characters cause those kids, those characters are really underrepresented in children's literature right now. And so, um, I mean that's kind [00:20:00] of where I've been going in terms of thinking about what's missing in the, the book world.
Speaker 3:I mean I'm a classroom teacher and I love using books as resources. So, so your natural would be more of a fictional account of a non, yeah, with, with a non-binary character because there are books with transgender characters in their books with gender expansive kids who, you know, might identify as a boy and like to wear dresses. There's a lot of really wonderful books out there, but there are, I haven't yet found a great book with a character who isn't a boy or a girl, a character [00:20:30] who doesn't use he or she pronouns. Um, and you know, I know kids who, who use they pronouns and you know, their first grade classmates don't really know what to make of that. And I know kids who are non-binary who don't use any pronouns at all and that be linguistically challenging. But I think if we see our seeing those characters in books, it makes it a lot more accessible.
Speaker 3:Any kind of media actually you've been going around and reading this book at bookstores and sounds like [00:21:00] you've gotten a great response. Oh yeah. We've, I mean I've been reading in the South Bay in Berkeley. And have you been going anywhere else? I haven't yet gone anywhere else this summer I'll go to the east coast and we'll actually do a workshop at the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference in September, but on Saturday I'm going to be at Laurel books in Oakland at 3:00 PM so I'll be really excited to do a reading. And a presentation for the 3:00 PM at Laura Bookstore. And that, oh, you know, one thing I really liked about your book, at the end of your [00:21:30] book, you give so much information about resources both for students, for parents, organizations, and you founded an organization and, and what is that? Yeah, so I founded the gender inclusive schools alliance and that was a few years ago when I, as a parent in the Berkeley school system.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about, you know, wanting to reach out to other parents and I just, and, and I think what happens a lot is that parents feel sort of isolated in their [00:22:00] individual schools, especially in a district as small as Berkeley. And so the gender inclusive schools alliance is a group of families of transgender, non-binary gender expansive kids. And you know, on the one hand it's, it's a nice support group to kind of share experiences across the different schools. But also it's an advocacy organization because in Berkeley Unified School district, there is a very progressive policy. I think the district was one of the first to adopt, um, a policy around transgender rights. And, um, I think it's called [00:22:30] the gender identity and access policy. And so they have rooms and yeah, bathrooms, locker rooms, just the, the information system. So how you're, you know, on the forms and the technology, the way it's you're entered into the system, curriculum, professional development, all of that is addressed in this board policy and the administrative regulations.
Speaker 3:And so the gender inclusive schools alliance is really there as the families in the district to say, hey, we want to support all of the efforts with the district is making, we appreciate that so much. And, [00:23:00] and we all know that operationalizing policies can be challenging because there's just lots of steps to be taken. So we've been really working with the district to do that and wonderful things that have come out of that group are that now there are non-binary gender marker options in the Berkeley school grades systems. Well, absolutely. So you can, you know, you can have your gender marker be known binary there. There's an all student bathroom at every elementary school now. And we're working with the district to think about how to get [00:23:30] even more access for kids who need all student bathrooms for him. So yeah, some wonderful things have come from that family group.
Speaker 3:And then also just you mentioned the, the resources on the website. Oh, W l she had books. Films, yeah, they're adults and children. She's really great. And the idea behind that was really that as a teacher, I don't expect folks to be able to pick up this book and teach it right away in their class. I mean, there's a lot of groundwork that needs to get laid in order for it to be successful in the classroom. And you need to have a gender inclusive space where [00:24:00] you know, you've got a school culture where talking about this as you know, as part of the norm and you're talking about diversity and individuality and all of that. So I wanted to give teachers those resources before you read this book here. You know, if you go onto the website, kids guide to gender.com to the resources section, you'll be able to find all the different books and lessons that you can do before you read.
Speaker 3:Who are you and then after that to being able to access different people's stories. I mean in my school we've watched [00:24:30] videos of kids who are sharing their stories and it's a nice access point for kids to be able to connect the book. Who are you? Just to real life and real people. So there's a ton of resources for educators and then also for families. Um, there's a lot on the website around how can you make your school more gender inclusive? Cause I think that's one of the main concerns I hear from parents of gender expansive kids is I want to support my school to be more inclusive. But I'm not sure how statistics are horrible. Once [00:25:00] you reach adolescence and you are transgender, the suicide rate is very high. I think it's over 40% that attempted to high in it. And that's why the other thing, I feel like this book is so important.
Speaker 3:It's going to nip that in the bud and create an environment that's going to be so much more freeing for these young students. And you're also, you're also creating allies because you know, this book and the curriculum is not just about the gender expansive kids, the non-binary kids, the transgender kids, [00:25:30] it's about all kids. And actually it's almost more important for the other, you know, all of the kids in the class in, in a school to, to understand gender diversity because you know, it really benefits all kids. And really, even in the younger, at the younger ages, kids are really just curious, right? Like they, they'll see a kid and say, you know, Huh, is that a boy or a girl? But for that student, if they're being asked over and over again, are you a boy or a girl? You know, it's not necessarily intended in any kind [00:26:00] of mean way, but it can feel like, you know, and feel ostracized.
Speaker 3:It really can. And I think that as a teacher at a school, I feel like it is our responsibility as educators to create the space where we, the adults are the ones educating our community in our class. So it doesn't have to fall on the shoulders of a five-year-old to explain gender diversity to 500 students at a school. I'm very excited about a world where none of this matters. Yeah. You know, I have always [00:26:30] thought about my job as a teacher and I, you know, I've said this before, I've always thought about my job as a teacher and as a parent, as you know, I'm here to kind of help kids grow up and do good things and be good people and go out into the world. Like I'm preparing my kids for the world. Um, but in writing this book and doing this work, I've realized that my job is really so much more than just that.
Speaker 3:It's really, we're preparing the world for our kids. Things are changing. And the thing is, you know, national geographic calls it the gender revolution [00:27:00] that that issue just came out in January. A fantastic national geographic issue that came out with a documentary with Katie curric and you know, I think it is a gender revolution and I think it's, it's a reflection of the transformation that's happening in our society in many different ways, not just culturally, but scientifically. Absolutely. We now know how sexuality, how the spectrum occurs and where you, you, if you want to know exactly where you are on the spectrum, it's pretty easy to figure that out, right? Yeah. I mean there's a lot. It's, it [00:27:30] is really interesting, the science behind it and the, and the relationship between science and society and transformative period. And I think what I like to say is that transformation starts with a conversation.
Speaker 3:And who are you as a book that helps you start that conversation? Well, congratulations on your book. I thought it was just lovely. Thank you. And again, you'll be doing a reading tomorrow. I'll be doing a reading tomorrow at Laurel books at 3:00 PM and encourage folks to go to the website, kids' guide to gender.com there's all sorts [00:28:00] of other resources that people can ask. All one word kid's guide to gender guide to gender.com and I'm go buy the book for your local library, for your local public school, for your grandparents. I mean people are really making sure that it's getting out there into the world cause it's not just for kids. It's for everybody. I agree. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was Brooke Pesan Webby, the author of who are you, the kids guide to gender
Speaker 2:identity. You can find out more [00:28:30] about gender identity in her book at kids' guide to gender.com you've been listening to method to the madness of week three Publican bear show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back next Friday.
Speaker 4:[00:29:00] Okay.
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