Moments of Impact
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:You were listening to method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. [00:00:30] Today in our studio we have Chris [inaudible] who has just co-written book with Lisa K. Solomon called moments of impact, how to design strategic conversations that accelerate change. I just finished this book and I just want to say that it reminded me in some ways of Ian Morris, who is a professor at Stanford, had a book called why the West Rules for now, and he talks about the patterns of history and what it reveals about the future. But one of the things he talks about is that today there has never been a convergence [00:01:00] of the externalities that exist today in all of the planet's history. And that includes climate change, famine, state failure, migration and disease. And the reason after reading your book, the reason it remind me of that is you're saying we have to blow up the old ideas of strategy and start fresh with something called strategic conversation. So with that long intro, tell us what you're doing here.
Speaker 2:Hi. Hi Lisa. Thank you very much for that. Uh, for that intro. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, the book is trying to help [00:01:30] people think about, you know, when you have a group of very talented people with very different opinions in the same room wrestling, the [inaudible] trying to wrestle the big issues to the ground, how do you make that work? It's very, very hard to do well and it's very important to do it well. As you say, there's a, there's a changing context today that makes this even more difficult. In the book we talk about the context of strategy changing from in the old days it used to be more uh, like a chess game, lot of math based, a lot of analytic based [00:02:00] ideas and also pretty top down, very top down, very mechanical almost, right? So there you had a star chamber, people made the big decisions that cascaded down the organization, et Cetera. Today strategies much less like chess than it's more like, like hockey. It's fast, dangerous and hard to follow and you need to make constant adjustments all the time across the organization, not just at the very top. And so that's really how to do that well, how to move from strategic planning where you lock everything down and you know exactly what you're doing all the time [00:02:30] to strategic adaptation through conversation. That's the purpose of the book.
Speaker 1:I know you get your phd here at UC Berkeley in demographics, right? And anthropology as an undergraduate. That's masters. Yeah, masters. Okay. And you went on to work for the global business network and other organizations that do scenario planning. Is that what led you to this book?
Speaker 2:I spent the last 20 years helping clients of all kinds, big, big companies, but also government agencies, large nonprofits, think about the future more creatively, [00:03:00] both their innovation strategy in their, and their general strategy. And it's really in the course of 20 years of doing that, that I realized that strategy is the conversation now. That's where the real substance resides. It's not in having a team go off for months and research everything and come back with the right answer because by the time they're done, everything's changed again. Uh, all too often. And so strategy is the conversation. And once I accepted that and Lisa and I, Lisa, k, Solomon, my coauthor, and I took 15 months off [00:03:30] to say, what does that really mean? If you accept that premise, what does that really mean? We went back, we buttoned up everything we've learned from our own experience. We interviewed 120 people. Then I put my social scientists hat back on to as well did deep research in the social psychology, cognitive science and more to understand the deeper roots of of what works and why it works.
Speaker 1:Okay, so once you identify that, well, you have all these years of experience, how does a a a new MBA, a fresh MBA get this kind of experience or does it take 20 [00:04:00] years to get it? How do you get strategic conversation experience?
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I've had the experience of speaking with a lot of MBAs here on campus, MBA candidates and they're remarkably savvy about strategy these days. It depends on your years of experience to understand organization dynamics. That's another thing, but I think that the culture of the Internet and the speed of change out there in the world, that students today are more facile with this kind of idea that things change constantly. [00:04:30] One example that we have in the book, we talk about flip video. For those of you who are under 30 that was a device that you voice, the vive dominant cam quarter, low end camcorder, video recorder for several years. Well, it was a startup based in San Francisco. A couple of guys above gumps department store in San Francisco in 2007 they put out a kind of shaky prototype. They worked the bugs out of it.
Speaker 2:They got it to mass market. Within less than a year, they were dominating the category. They wound up [00:05:00] selling the company for $590 million to Cisco and by 2011 the whole thing was shut down from startup to market dominance to massive payday to oblivion, back to oblivion in four years. What happened there? Well, I mean it got, it became part of a part of our phones, right? So now we have the, the video recorder I have on my iPhone, I happen to use it. iPhone is better quality than, than they had a, they are, they picked something at the moment that it was hot [00:05:30] and you know, they are not a consumer company, you know, by nature. Uh, and so the, the phone actually got, uh, the video got folded into the phone and that market basically dried up and it would have happened no matter who who owned it.
Speaker 1:In your book, you give great examples. You talk about how today there's a lot of disruption and things kind of unexpected like airbnb, Uber, Amazon's entry into book publishing. It seems like left and right. There are these things that's come out of nowhere and dominate the market. Can
Speaker 2:you get ready for something like that? When, when [00:06:00] I first started this work 20 years ago, the big thing we were competing with was denial. That is, we would share these stories of massive change and executives would say, yeah, that happens over there, but it's not gonna affect my industry for various reasons. And a lot of the time they were, they were right. But I think what's happened in the last 20 years is that the source of resistance has shifted from denial to paralysis. We even very sleepy backwater industries are scared of a lot of the disruptors that are out there. There's a lot of things that can upset the apple cart [00:06:30] and even quite boring state industries these days. So they're not typically in denial, but they do kind of throw up their arms and say, what am I supposed to do about it? So what do you tell them?
Speaker 2:Well, that's, that's where the strategic conversation comes in. We only, at the end of the day, we only have our human judgment to fall back on the judgements informed by better or worse information. But the idea that that perfect proof point is going to come through, it's very rare. By the time you get a perfect proof point that something is happening, it's already happened and it's too late. So you have [00:07:00] to be a bit ahead of the curve. You have to accept the risk that comes from being ahead of the curve. And that means taking on more of an experimentation approach, more of a hedging your bets approach so that you're not risking the entire enterprise. When you make a move. You probably see the same thing in education now at least at the college level, that means the changes that are happening now and coming down the road.
Speaker 2:There must be a lot of that sort of unsettled feeling. Funny you should mention that I, I think it's an absolute given that higher education will go through a massive transformation over the next 10 [00:07:30] plus years. It's going to take awhile because higher ed is a pretty conservative change averse kind of organizational culture. At the same time it is a market and so unlike some other large systems like K-12 education or healthcare, which is largely a public market, higher ed is today largely a private market and for the system to stay the same families and students have to keep signing out for massive amounts of debt for a very uncertain outcome. You know about 50% [00:08:00] of students today in the United States who sign up for a four year college or university do not walk out with a degree at the end of six years. That's just a huge yield loss amount of resource energy that goes into that, that's just wasted is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:And so we need a much better search function and we also need what the gates foundation of others. We've talked about the micro micro credentialing or badging, the stacked credentials, stackable credentials, the idea that you, you don't just have one big demonstration of your knowing at the end of the [00:08:30] shoot along the way. There's a whole unbundling and rebundling of Higher Ed that I think is going to happen cause high higher ed is trying to do three things at the same time. And I'm talking just about undergraduate education now, providing skills and knowledge that are helpful in the workplace and have a good career job and career, et cetera. It's also educating people in a more general sense, right? For goods to be good citizens, to be upstanding members of the community. Uh, it's also helping to turn children into adults, you know, take people the last, the last step into, [00:09:00] into adulthood.
Speaker 2:And not all institutions do all three things equally well, right? And they don't all have to happen in the same place as well. I think the big threat to higher ed from a business model standpoint, that's going to force the issue is what I call the craigslist effication of Higher Ed. So if you think about what happened to newspapers, right? Newspapers used to make all of their money or a great deal of their money, I should say, off of the classified ads, right? And so craigslist came along, they said, we can do that, just, we can do it better [00:09:30] online, it's more searchable, it's more dynamic, et cetera. And we'll just take that profit center away from newspapers. And it's been just, it's decimated the newspaper industry, right? The equivalent of the analog, I should say for Higher Ed, is the One oh one econ one oh one biology, one-on-one history, one-on-one, all the one-on-one courses.
Speaker 2:That's the cash cow for the university. That's where they make the most money. That's what cross subsidizes a lot of the other things that the university does that can be delivered way more efficiently [00:10:00] in 10 years from now. That's going to be very hard for the big universities to defend the one-on-ones and the, and the university's not going to go away, but it will transform and there'll be different niches too. There's not gonna be one answer. The the very prestigious schools, they don't have to change it. They don't want to flip it. The middle of the market. There are thousands of schools in the middle that are charging 40 $50,000 a year for not a very prestigious edge. And you know, you don't get the prestige. The quality education is pretty good, but it's not awesome. [00:10:30] And all of that part of the market. I just don't see how that doesn't have a massive for accounting.
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk to you in your book. You have an interesting chapter about the history of strategy and for the Dr Strange love fans out there. Can you just take a moment and talk about when military moved into business? Yeah. So in the Cold War era there was a lot of fear and a lot of uncertainty and there was no denial. We knew there was danger out there in the world, but we had a paralysis. This [00:11:00] condition of, well, what do we do about it? So there were a few geniuses at the rand institute in Southern California in particular at bell about Emma Herman Kahn who devised this approach called scenario planning. And scenario planning says, you know, we know we can't predict the future yet. We still must act. And so instead of trying the fool's errand of predicting the future, what we needed to do is run the thought experiment about different futures.
Speaker 2:And so you sort of say, well there are three or four different scenarios [00:11:30] on how this Cold War might play out over the next decade, let's say. And so you sort of build out the scenarios and even if the worst right, you imagine the worst. And you also have to imagine victory to like, you know, let's imagine 10 years from now, you know, there's actually an effective framework. What would that look like to, so you, you, you do both. You look at the dark scenarios and the light scenarios and even if you're right, technically like you don't pick the right scenario, you don't, the, the thought process of working through in detail [00:12:00] the different possibilities and a really logical way really forces you to open up your thinking to be more adaptive. And so when you see signs of change out there in the world, you're more responsive to them.
Speaker 2:You can, your, your judgment is better informed, you can act on the more and more smartly. He was the model for Dr Shane slump? I believe so. I think that's right. And then you talk about Royal Dutch Shell and how he took those ideas and at a time of critical competition in oil. Yeah. It's a shell in Europe is this very iconic [00:12:30] brand. There are the intelligentsia business intelligence. He of Europe go to shell. That's the, at least in the era certainly. And they had this planning department that was very good, but the world kept making fools out of them and they didn't like it. So their job was to predict the future price of oil. And the reason they did that was shell would make a big bet on $1 billion offshore oil refinery or a new location or something. Then these are huge bets, you know, so 1 billion bucks and the payout time is 10 20 years.
Speaker 2:You need to forecast the price of oil will the [00:13:00] price of oils we know tends to take pretty wild swings and they're not predictable. And so they, they kept making the wrong forecasts and it was inevitable. There was no way to make the right forecast. And so they learned about Harmon's cons work with uh, with rand foundation. They brought scenario planning from the military to the business sector and they started telling these different scenarios about, well, why would the price of oil go very high? Why would it go very hello? And the famous story that really made scenario planning a celebrated in the business [00:13:30] community was that they, one of the scenarios anticipated the rise of OPEC. It didn't predict it. It's an important difference. But they said, well, why would the price of oil go high? I said, well, you know, the Saudis got in touch with Iran and they decided to collude on price and volume and then, well, if they did that, who would they call next?
Speaker 2:And they actually thought about the players and their motivations and how this would snowball and how, you know, a cartel could be created. And so when shell saw that scenario, they [00:14:00] said, we don't know if that's going to happen, but there's enough of a risk for that to happen that we're going to stockpile quantity. So they stockpiled way more. And they were like, I think at the time they were seventh in the world in oil and among the, they they shot up to like second or so after OPEC because they had all these reserves. That's an amazing story. You also in your book talk about, um, you call it VUCA world. You see a, can you talk about what that means? Right. And that comes from the military as well. In Mil military planning has accepted that today we live in [00:14:30] a world of volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity.
Speaker 2:And that that is the norm. So the famous, you know, fog of war observation or the comment that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. You know the military is all over that. To the extent that if you look at some of the training manuals in recent years for operations training mails for the army, they, they actually teach people design thinking the funny thing in the field, because they're obviously not creating beautiful products to sell to the world. They're trying to react [00:15:00] smartly to an ever changing, ever evolving situation on the ground and that the theory there was that by training soldiers in the art of design thinking they could adapt more readily to their environment. I don't know if any studies have been done on how effective that's been. It's, it's just, it's an interesting, yeah, it's a statement of just how broad, you know, the military is thinking about uncertainty and Buka world and how to respond to it.
Speaker 2:Taking that concept and moved it into absolutely strategy and [00:15:30] I want to talk to you about the difference between what you call it, a technical challenge and an adaptive challenge. How do you compare those two? Right now, this is a critical distinction. It comes from Ron Heifetz of of Harvard, who's a great writer and thinker on leadership. And Ron Ron says, look that you know, most of the time we operate in professionals operate in the domain of technical challenges. So how do you increase sales by 5% next quarter through your marketing channels? How do you, how do you cut [00:16:00] costs by 5% we'll be kind of typical business technical challenges and technical challenges are ones where you, the problem is very well defined and it calls for the application of very familiar skillsets. They can be very complex like brain surgery or building a bridge. But ultimately you know what you need to do when you get it, you get the job done.
Speaker 2:Adaptive challenges are those where not only don't you know the answer, but you're, you're not sure you even have the right question, right? So what are, what do our customers want next from us? What kind of talent will we need five years from now? [00:16:30] You know, what are the big risks that we should be worrying about? Those are very open ended, messy challenges, hard to know where to cut in and the, and the differences important because we, we spend so much time in the technical domain that when we, when we see adaptive challenges, we tend to try to find technical solutions to them. And that almost never works. You need a different leadership style. You need a different problem solving style. You need to get the whole system in the room for adaptive challenges. You know, one or two really smart people can't figure it out and tell everybody what to do.
Speaker 2:You need [00:17:00] the whole system. Thinking about multiple perspectives, thinking creative, going into an organization and digging into many different lines of business. VI, right? Different levels of management, right? Adaptive challenges are fractal. They break out all over the organization. They don't, um, they don't announce themselves in a, in a, in a kind way. They just sort of pop up all over the place. And so not everything raised rises to the top. And the ability to deal with adaptive challenges, um, has to be ubiquitous today. How do you [00:17:30] choose the right people to sit in on these strategic conversations? That's a great question. We spend a lot of time talking about that in the book. Like how, how do you figure out what does it mean to get the right people in the room? And we talk about getting the Dream Team in the room instead of what we call the must invite team.
Speaker 2:So anytime you have a particular challenge on the table, usually there's a list of usual suspects and there are sort of political expectations of who should be at the table. We talk about various ways of sort of getting around that and not defaulting to the most obvious, um, [00:18:00] solutions. Because usually with adaptive challenges, you need breadth of perspective and you need voices from the frontier. You may need, you know, some younger folks on the team, people who are working in more kind of marginal parts of the business, but where the frontiers of change are happening more fast once the customer. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so those are, you know, you, you really have to think a lot more broadly about who needs to be in the conversation and be really pragmatic about that. Cause it's not usually the same people you would have for technical conversation.
Speaker 2:You have a wonderful [00:18:30] 60 page kit inside this book that tells people how to hold a strategic conversation. And then you talk about five principles where you compare the old to the new. And I should say too, I mean the, the well-organized meeting is fine for 90 plus percent of situations when you're dealing with the technical issues. So, uh, even though it's not, yeah, it's not a completely, you know, organizing good meetings will never completely go away. But yeah, there's, there's five and I'll do the kind of before, [00:19:00] after picture. So the first thing in a well organized meeting is to declare the objectives. Usually that's in bullet point form, you know, by the enemy and we're going to get out bop, bop, bop, and we say, sure. But with a adaptive challenge, you actually need to define your purpose, your larger purpose. And to us, what that means is you need to understand where you are in the arc of solving, uh, in the journey of solving a really challenging problem and, and really defined the session as moving from, from one point to another [00:19:30] on that larger journey.
Speaker 2:And that's, that's usually not what people do. They think of a particular meeting as a moment of pure moment in time. And you have to, you have to imagine and see the whole arc of the problem solving journey. So that's number one. Number two is you have to identify participants for a well organized meeting. For well-designed strategic conversation, you need to engage multiple perspectives. And that's what we talked about. We're just talking about, right? You need to get diversity in the room and get diversity working in a productive way, not a, not [00:20:00] a destructive way. Number three, a for well-organized meaning as you need to assemble the content, pull together a bunch of content. Well, sure. Um, but for a adaptive challenge there so open-ended, so messy that more importantly you need to frame the issues they need to. Yeah. Now, this is a, this is kind of conceptual and it was the most difficult chapter in the book to write, but when you have a really open-ended challenge, you need to create really simple visual frames that allow people to organize their thinking.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, you just [00:20:30] go around in circles and you don't know where to start and where to end in strategy. A common devices, the simple two by two matrix, right? And we use a lot of those and the two by two matrix can be a very, very helpful, simple device, but there are lot of other visuals and a lot of times they're custom creative for context. The really key thing is they have to be simple. If they're too complicated, we try to map everything visually, like map the whole system. It just breaks down. Then the fourth thing is to find a venue, you know? Sure. [00:21:00] We need a room where you're talking about setting the scene versus finding a venue and you talk about the famous MIT building. This was probably the most fun chapter to write. It was very visual, but why so much success has come out of such a bland setting.
Speaker 2:I love that. And this has been written elsewhere by Stuart brand, wrote about it, Steven Johnson and others, but I think it's called building 51 if memory serves of the MIT yielding 2020, sorry, the MIT media lab. And it's a famous story because it was a, it was a hothouse of incredible innovation. A lot of brilliant people [00:21:30] work there. A lot of brilliant ideas came out of it, but everybody who worked there was persuaded that the building itself was a key part of their success. Right. And we all have had experiences like that where there are places that are just special. We don't know why, but they are, you know, in this one, it wasn't just the people, it was that this space was a, and it was a pretty raw container. It was not fancy at all, uh, that it had movable walls. It didn't have movable walls, had cheap walls.
Speaker 2:The cheapness of the building actually made it [00:22:00] adaptable. So people felt free to knock holes in the wall, run wires wherever they wanted to, and so we, we talk in the book about a lot of different ways to organize space to think about space. I've done strategic conversations and all kinds of crazy places and skyboxes at baseball stadiums at a nunnery in Malaysia. You know, it's not about being whimsical and being different for the sake of being different, but you want to pick a space that really supports the purpose that thematically is consistent with what we were trying to accomplish and also takes people [00:22:30] to a different place. Getting out of your normal office, normal work settings when you're wrestling with adaptive challenges is critical. The last piece was setting the agenda versus making it an experience. So this really is the punchline of the whole book.
Speaker 2:People when they think about a meeting and they come up with an agenda, we'll spend 30 minutes on this, an hour on that 30 minutes. That is just not the best way to think about structuring a strategic conversation. Strategic conversations need to be experiences people live and learn through experience, [00:23:00] not by being told things, not by reading things. And so the example we gave of plum organics, and this happened in Emeryville, that was a company that was started here in Emeryville, start up a food, food company, organic food for kids. And they started having some success. And in a couple of years, in two, three years, they got up to about $40 million in revenue, which is a very nice run from zero. And in the world of, of food and big food, it's a, it's not a big number, right? It's, it's you're, you're now you're [00:23:30] on the retail shelves in the stores and you're sort of nibbling at the ankles of the giant.
Speaker 2:Neil had a, had to think through the next wave of competition. He needed to engage his board cause he'd never been here before. He knew that the big companies were likely to steal his space from him and he needed to figure out how to defend themselves. So we have the board members, uh, at a meeting, they'd been over all the data on competition before. So they knew the information, but they hadn't really had a visceral conversation about it. And so he had them mimic [00:24:00] being at the board meeting of the other companies. And so each of the board members paired up with one of his management team members and they each represented a different company. And they came and presented to their own board about how they were going to destroy plum and take their market away from them. And it takes guts for a CEO to, you know, a tell their their board members to go do work for them at a board meeting, but be, um, to go destroy your company five times in a row.
Speaker 2:Uh, but they did it and they actually had fun doing it. And at the end of that conversation, [00:24:30] Neil pulled out the, the list of strategic questions that they'd been debating about competition. And so what are we gonna do about these four questions? And to his amazement, all five board members came out with the exact same insight with the, exactly what we this, it's clear we have to do this. But it was not from analyzing the situation was from the creative storytelling of really playing out what is it, you know, what would it look like to get clobbered by the competition? Then you think, okay, what are we gonna do about it? So it feels like, you know, it sounds a little bit like fun and Games, but [00:25:00] it is way more serious and way more effective than just looking at PowerPoint slides. Intuition and logic need to be pulling together.
Speaker 2:They need to be interactive with each other to inform judgment. Decision making requires emotion, intuition, a embedded in, in it and, and experiences the path to that. You talk about the Abbott's in your book, it's kind of a fun chapter too. Yeah. The habits said this is, um, it's, it's spelled y a BB t s but it's, it's, yeah, but it's what it is. This comes from Larry Keeley [00:25:30] and the concept is just, these are the three big three big roadblocks to great strategic conversations and they are politics near termism and a lack of strategic thinking capability. And all three of them are present in some combination and all organizations, I struggle with them on a daily basis. Politics is people's judgment and their positions are partly determined by by self interest near termism is we're all incented to think about this year's results and [00:26:00] it's unusual that organizations can think longterm, um, consistently.
Speaker 2:And then yeah, a lot of people just have a hard time thinking strategically. Their Day job is so operational. So, uh, in the weeds focus that it, that it's hard. And, and again, I just go back to experience. The whole design process in the book is around creating visceral experiences for participants that get them above the Abbott. I think about like people like you plan a wedding for Aunt Bertha, right? You plan a wedding for the most conservative family member, right? [00:26:30] And then it turns out that aunt birth is actually bored of the same cheesecake at every wedding and would actually prefer something different as it turns out. And, and, and in organizations, that kind of thing I described with Neil grimmer that kind of simulation based you game almost gamified, right? That kind of approach. It's very rare that people don't prefer it when it's done well.
Speaker 2:They get it. You never succeed in eliminating the Abbotts, but you do. Um, you can rise above them for a day or two at a time. You talk about specifically the Rockefeller Center [00:27:00] and how they used strategic conversation to scale the idea of impact investing. And it was a, it was a big meeting that was held in Italy a few years ago and they brought together all the different players to really coalesce around the definition of the field. So it was really to help stimulate a shared understanding of what the field was so that they would then invest in it and, and help support it. Each of the five design principles that our book were deployed, they had a killer location [00:27:30] at a resort in Italy that was just unbelievable. They framed the issues beautifully on a, on a time wall that they created that showed the evolution of the field over the time and different strands coming together.
Speaker 2:They did an awesome job of getting the right people in the room. And yeah, it was a tremendous experience. So that just, it was a story where the pulls together all the design on the whole field of impact investing. This was I think 2009 there's a book impact investing that's written by one of the hosts of that meeting. That one last [00:28:00] thing, getting back to how bringing disparate groups together within an organization, you use the word planking, what are the planks that you use to bridge these people who have nothing in common in an organization but are necessary for this strategic conversation? Right, because there's two big concepts I think in here. One is to create a common platform, create a sort of mini community in time temporary community that you'll then then build off of. The even more kind of important thing I think is the, this is what we call ignite a [00:28:30] controlled burn and that is that it's very hard to get to breakthrough thinking without some conflict, without throwing off some sparks.
Speaker 2:So that's why it's so important to create the sense of community because you're about to ignite a controlled burn. And so we give several examples in the book of how we have clients have situations where people, we, we spark, you know, pretty fierce debates but within really defined parameters within really controlled limits and within a simulation context that's real [00:29:00] ish but not too real and it's not for the 10 minutes stuff for the tone or running out of time. So I just have a few more things I wanted to ask what the response has been to this book. It came out last year, right? Right. 2014. It's fun that this was my, my first book, Lisa's first book and we, we've made some of the, some of the national bestseller lists that was, that was very pleasant. Um, but what's fun is also just kind of the interesting queries that you get from the universe, right? That you didn't, you don't know what to expect. A lot of people are using the book in ways that we didn't imagine [00:29:30] and coming to us with questions that we never thought of. And that's a huge gift that you get. Moments of impact. book.com is our website and it's a, yes. See there is
Speaker 3:a place there to post questions to Lisa and I and we'd be delighted to respond. Okay. Well, thank you, Chris for being on the program and can I do what you're going to do next? Thank you, Lisa. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 4:[00:30:00] You've been listening to method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. Tune in again in two weeks at the same time. [inaudible]
Speaker 3:okay.
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