Dr. Bazian is co-founder of Zaytuna College, an innovative Muslim liberal arts college in Berkeley and the first accredited Muslim undergraduate college in the U.S. He is also senior lecturer in Depts. of Near Eastern and Ethnic Studies at UC Berkeley.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next.
Speaker 2:No one's listening to method to the madness. At Biweekly Public Affairs show on k a l ex Berkeley celebrating bay area innovators. Today you see Berkeley Student Anna Sterling interviews Dr Houghton Bosnian cofounder of say Tuna College, [00:00:30] the first accredited Muslim college in the United States where he teaches Islamic law and theology. He's also senior lecturer in Near Eastern Studies and ethnic studies here at UC Berkeley.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the show Dr. Horton Bosnian. We're here today to talk about the Tuna College, which is here in Berkeley, [00:01:00] uh, the first accredited Muslim college in the United States. What was the impetus for starting the college?
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me first, um, to the show, the impetus for the college cam as a result of the increasing a number of Muslim communities both here in the bay area and across the country, and the need to address the multifaceted challenges that are meeting the communities from, uh, [00:01:30] the growing number of centers that require, uh, individuals who are trained both in Islamic tradition, but also aware of the various, uh, issues that come out of the, uh, American context and living within such a rabid, fast paced society. Uh, so the impetus for it is, uh, comes out from really addressing this vast need. Second aspect is that the ability of religious leaders and leaders to come from [00:02:00] abroad, uh, was increasingly, uh, very challenging in terms of attempt to meet the needs. Uh, and I think this is also a normative process that other religious communities historically have, uh, been through.
Speaker 4:The Catholics used to get there, uh, ministers and priests from, uh, Ireland or from Italy. And as the patterns of immigration settlements and second generation, third generation, uh, the need was outstripping the ability [00:02:30] to provide them, bring individuals from, uh, abroad as well as the fact that individuals were born in this country required a person who could come in with an understanding of what are the particular needs that might not be transferable from other countries, whether it's Italy or Ireland at the time and for the Muslim community. Likewise, uh, that was something that they were facing
Speaker 1:and it started out as a seminary originally and then became a Muslim college,
Speaker 4:[00:03:00] a Liberal Arts College. What's the mix there? Why was that move important? Initially we were thinking about the seminary in order to train individuals in a seminary type of a setting with the specifically religious focus exclusively. But as we looked at where the community's at, the top of training that is needed to have individuals finish a seminary degree, which is a graduate degree. [00:03:30] We felt that the prerequisites almost are four to five years in the making and are a pipeline of individuals who might come into a very narrowly structured a seminary program would be a challenge considering where we are at in terms of the United States. So we had to step back and think of a college with a liberal arts degree. And then from that we hope that students who graduate, we'll rotate a number of fields [00:04:00] and one of the fields that they might go into, it will be a seminary type, whether to go to GTU, Hartford seminary or some of the other seminaries around the country.
Speaker 4:And also in the hope for us in the future to have a master phd program where students who want to be trained in a seminary setting can do so under the umbrella of the GTU Gray with theological union. So we had to step back in order for us to move forward and stepping back by setting up a this liberal arts [00:04:30] degree, we need students who have a strong hold in the Arabic language. So our students now have to finish five years of Arabic. So once they go into a seminary or graduate degree, they already have the prerequisites and they don't have to start from scratch. So that's the a shift in the strategy, not in the shift in what we are hoping to accomplish with a small subset of the graduates. And it's not open to just Muslims, it's open to everyone. Anyone who's interested in having [00:05:00] a liberal arts degree is welcome and hopefully when we get to the master phd track, likewise, anyone who wants to have a quality education is welcome.
Speaker 4:I think we're at 50 55% women, 45% men. We're having some interest from Christian colleges that are interested in having a way to dialogue but also as a way to have education where they could send their students in there. So I think this will come. We had actually a a conference between our students and their students. So I think in our relationship [00:05:30] with GTU has been great. All of the nine different denominations at GTU have embraced us now with the two buildings that we own. We're both GTU on buildings that they sold to us. PSR sold us the LACAN building, which is at the corner and then the Prentice Kent School of Theology Corner, uh, building that yellow corner building Euclid, they did not bought it on the market. They actually up a project say we want to sell the building. You got to love Franciscans. Yeah. So, [00:06:00] so they sold us a building.
Speaker 4:They invited at one and then when they, when we signed the contract, they had a, a dinner for us and one of the priests gave a lecture on Islam and on the wall they had a photograph of medical idol of Egypt and San Francis embracing because the assumption is that St Francis was one of the key figures that ended the crusades because he finished, he went and visited the medical idle in Egypt at the time and then came back to the pool. And as the pool to provide [00:06:30] a way for people to repent without having to go on a crusade. And that's what's the, a Franciscan sec developed out of San Francis visit to Egypt and his encounter with AMAG. So they had that post or that picture on the wall and they gave it as a gift to us as well. I didn't know that St Francis is my favorite saint. He's kind of like within the Catholic digital, he's accredited of shifting because without the possibility of having to go to some other place [00:07:00] to, to cleanse yourself and repent, then people were still being sent to the Crusades. So St Francis upon returning from Egypt, he actually asked for that to be the way. Yeah. And the pope gave him that.
Speaker 1:Um, one thing that I thought was interesting on the website is it mention, it had a list of perennial faculty sort of citing, you know, a long list of Muslim thinkers and intellectuals. What's the purpose of sort of connecting to that past? What do you sort of hope to convey to the students of today living in Berkeley, [00:07:30] in the bay area? In the center
Speaker 4:liberal education or Liberal Arts degree is rooted in the great books of the past. And therefore, even though that in our today fast paced culture, it seems that you are the center of the world. Uh, so we're trying to say that yes, you're the center of the world in one dimension, but everything that you think it's in, you has a long deray to it. Uh, all the way back from the Chinese words to Indian words, to the Greek, to the Romans, [00:08:00] to the Muslim civilization and so on. So it is rooted in linking back to the great traditions in great intellectual contribution, and then to see where these contributions are at by thinking of the perennial faculty or prenatal contribution, and then where you could add your own distinctive aspect upon or building upon what was done in the past. And I think it's a similar to the Catholic tradition. If you say, look at St Mary's College or uh, uh, San John's [00:08:30] and so on, the great books tradition is rooted in there. So in a similar way, we want to convey that there is a tradition within the Islamic pedagogical approach to think of these great books and how to link the students to that tradition
Speaker 1:standing on the shoulders of giants. Absolutely. I noticed that this right now the college is around 50 to 60 students, about 60 students, just other
Speaker 4:25 for this coming fall.
Speaker 1:So it was sort of a tight knit community. What role does the larger [00:09:00] Muslim non Muslim community play at the college?
Speaker 4:When we were thinking about where to locate the college, there were a number of possibilities. We had literally offers to go some other places around the country where the land would be almost free if, uh, actually they'll pay you to take it. Uh, we had a location where they had a full college set up with a gym, a swimming pool, housing that was for sale from a to Z. Literally youth pick up the key [00:09:30] and you have a college ready made. Uh, but you know, I assure you it was not one of those Trump's colleges. That was then what we were thinking is that to create a college, you need a hospitable environment. And in looking at many of us, the three founders were here in the bay area, in Mom's age, Hamza myself, that if you want to create a college from scratch, you have two major institutions in the bay area at Berkeley and Stanford.
Speaker 4:And therefore by boarding the college next to a major [00:10:00] university, you get the synergy that is there as a result of the intellectual, uh, environment that is there. It also though is an existing Muslim student population that is at the surrounding university in Berkeley. I think approximately 800 Muslim students give or take are here. And then you also have a large Muslim population in the bay area. The study that I did on the bay area Muslim community is about 250,000 with some nine 90 centers in the region. So it is really [00:10:30] having a major intellectual hub in the bay area that is hospitable, that is embracing of diversity and inclusiveness. And that made the choice of the bay area, uh, a foregone conclusion to having the college located in here. Uh, the challenge once again is, uh, we have to compete with Twitter, Facebook, and Google in terms of prices of real estate and being able to really have the buildings are needed. Uh, one is to acquire [00:11:00] building, but also how to expand in the distant future. The major challenge is the cost effectiveness is very high, but once again, location, location, location, and that was one of the major factors.
Speaker 1:And what's the average as a tuna student if there is, when are they typically from the bay area or
Speaker 4:no, we're getting students from nationally, I think, uh, depends different class, uh, enrollment differ. But in general we get students from across the country, from Florida, from Michigan, from New York, uh, [00:11:30] from New Jersey, Ohio, California. We do have a segment of it. So it's, uh, really a plus section of the Muslim community in the United States.
Speaker 1:And what do you hope that they, once they graduate, that they sort of put out into the world, what sort of skills do you hope they, that you've given them? Oh, our mission really is
Speaker 4:about graduating morally committed leaders that grounded in Islamic tradition and conversant in the modern contemporary occurrence in our society. So what we want is for them [00:12:00] to lead in whichever place ever career track that they choose. We don't train students for a career. We try. Our education is a commitment to lifelong learning and for them to commit themselves to education as a value in itself. That that is the end. Education is an end by itself and not to think of education and utilitarian function. So we definitely, while we want them to be engaged in society in whichever field and profession [00:12:30] that is not the end of the degree, but rather it should be the beginning of their contribution to society and want them to also act morally and ethically in the society. Uh, so that's what we want them to be. That they are reflective of the grounding that we're giving them in the institution.
Speaker 1:I think that idea of the morally committed leader is very interesting. I know that you, you founded the Islamophobia Research and documentation project here at Berkeley, as well as the Islamophobia Studies Journal [00:13:00] as well as you've also contributed a number of opinion columns, you know, about Trump and, and other issues surrounding Islamophobia with this rise of Islamophobic rhetoric, particularly on the campaign trail. What sort of shifts have any have happened at the college to sort of face these new crises?
Speaker 4:Well, I don't think there is a shift in the college because I think our curriculum and education we offer, Eh, it will have to stand the test of time, whether [00:13:30] it's Trump or any other person that wants to use racism, discrimination, otherwise nation, uh, want to build a walls on the ground as well as intellectual walls. Our degree will stand the test of time. Now we are aware that we are in a highly tense period where a particular segment of the American society in particular white working class are being stoked into racism, [00:14:00] into discrimination, into pointing their finger at an other ad is the source of their, a loss of economic opportunity that their standard of living has declined, that they're outsourcing of their jobs have been undertaken earnestly from the 70s, 80s on ongoing. So instead of confronting the real issues and who is responsible, who was on the driver's seat, uh, the blame has been stoked strategically so as a wedge issue [00:14:30] to blame on the one hand Latinos that they are the ones that are undermining our economic, uh, opportunities.
Speaker 4:Looking at the Muslim community and saying that, uh, this war on terrorism is basically not making us a strong looking at black life matters and the African American community in essence, by blaming them in really racist undertone, uh, by speaking that they are not carrying their weight, that a, there are depending on social welfare. All these are [00:15:00] buzzwords that are using cultural nuances to push a racist discourse and to try to imagine America of the past, uh, that is not tenable and trying to maintain a particular cluster of communities in the u s in a power at a time where the grounds have shifted tremendously. So we are aware of those. And the challenge for us is on the one hand, to document the period we are in terms of Islamophobia and what it's taken, but also how [00:15:30] to develop what I considered to be the new civil and human rights movement in this country that will reclaim the high ground and at the same time to undo the stalking of the white middle class and to actually develop a coalition that will address the largest segment and to point out what are the reasons of the challenges that we are having.
Speaker 4:What are the challenges of outsourcing? What are the challenges of the 1% that is basically [00:16:00] running all the way to the bank many times over and then getting, being rescued by the collective taxpayers. So that's the, I would say if there's a single or challenge that is the challenge is how to create a new society, a base on a board that will hold everyone, uh, without anybody trying to book, uh, holes on the bottom of the hole for the ship to sink. And that's how we see the circumstances. And when, as a today's position and how have your students reacted? Well, they're engaged, they're engaged [00:16:30] both in terms of, part of our program requires that the students have to undertake, uh, community service hours and part of community service hours have to be in how they give back and contribute. And on the one hand we have an alternative spring break.
Speaker 4:So for example, the number of students went to Ferguson to volunteer to work with habitat for humanity. Another group in the alternative spring break went to Utah. And uh, when, uh, with the National Forest Service [00:17:00] to plan tree and work on the environment. So they're engaged in ways where they could be making the difference as they are developing their or sharpen their intellectual skills. So in essence, they are proactively engaged in order to make a difference and build the bridges that are needed for an imagining of a different America that is inclusive, that is embracing, that also looks for the best interest [00:17:30] of those who have left behind and have fallen through the cracks. And I think that's what we want our students to undertake.
Speaker 1:And I saw that recently, last March Zaytuna received the first accredited Muslim college in the u s so what does that mean for the college?
Speaker 4:The institution of higher learning have an accreditation. And uh, from the first day we started this project, we wanted the institution to be accredited, in essence, to be admitted and invited to [00:18:00] the diverse academic table of higher education and for a Muslim college to receive accreditation and to sit at the table and offer our own ideas in conversation and in collaboration with other institutions of higher learning. And that process is a, we took it as a challenge for us. And also another opportunity because part of accreditation, you do a self study, you look at your curriculum, you look at your institutions, you look at your financial capacity reporting [00:18:30] and there is about 37 different criteria that you have to fulfill. And we took it seriously that this is an opportunity for us to assess where are we at. And uh, we were engaged with the last, there was an association forcing the schools and colleges, same institution that accredits UC Berkeley.
Speaker 4:So we were the fastest institution to begin the accreditation process and achieve accreditation, uh, by the team, the visiting team. In one visit we were able to get accreditation, uh, even UC Berkeley [00:19:00] had to go many times over and some other colleges we were able to achieve it. And, uh, both our curriculum, our, uh, institutional capacity, our finances are very sound. One question that the accreditation committee asked us time and time again because many institution want to get accreditation so they would be able to apply for federal financial aid for students. Now we have made a commitment institutionally that no students will graduate with debt. So we are committed [00:19:30] to students graduating debt free. And as founders we go out and actually appeal to the Muslim community who had part of their financial wellbeing is to give a charitable contribution the terms the cat. So we have been able to develop as a cat fund that provides needy students and any students that have a challenge financially to provide them the resources.
Speaker 4:So we actually, when they asked us, are you looking to get federal financial aid? I said, that's really, we [00:20:00] are, we don't want to apply for a federal financial aid. We want our students to graduate that free. We don't believe that you have to be in debt from the cradle to the grave. And I think that is something that we have to offer both institutionally, but also give it as an example of how education can be an avenue for individuals and society to liberate itself from the bondage of financial burden. And I think increasingly our education has become a financial burden where an average [00:20:30] undergrad graduate with $97,000 in debt. And if you go to a master's or phd, it could go into the hundreds of thousand and uh, God forbid you go to the medical school or if you want to train as a lawyer, you actually comes up with maybe 300 to $400,000 in debt if you go to laptop school, which essentially incentivize those individuals who will come out of these institutions to immediately try to stick it to anyone financially. And as such, you lose the bonds of the society [00:21:00] at the foundational level. So that's something that we are committed to it. And I think the accreditation team was taken back because if not every private institution depends heavily on federal financial aid and therefore what you have is a private institution that is uh, loading the students with debt as a way to run the institution. I think ethically and morally that is a wrong approach to higher education in general.
Speaker 1:And right now as a tuna, the only Muslim college in the u s or has it sort of inspired [00:21:30] at least ideas for other ones,
Speaker 4:it's what we were the only accredited institutions. There is a number of projects that we're hoping that they are on their road to accreditation. There's the American Slavic College in Chicago. They had been longer in place but they went dormant and they'd been back in attempting to get their accreditation process. They have filed, we already sent a letter of support to their accreditation. There is a couple of other institution in the early formative stage. Our expectation as the community increases and the numbers, once [00:22:00] again depending on which a study you look at from two and a half to 3 million to about six or 7 million, you take your number as a in terms of what statistical model you use as the community increases. The needs for such institution will rise and I think we will see in the next few years a number of institution joining Zaytuna and that will be very positive for us as well as the institutions that are coming to provide the services for the community.
Speaker 1:Creating perhaps [00:22:30] more of a network there.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. We're still, we are right now in discussing as a consortium among Muslim institutions that are either applying or attempting to get into an accreditation and I compare it to, once again, I think we're inspired by the Catholic tradition at a time where the Catholics were in this country that they began to invest in higher education. There were less than one and a half percent of the population. They were facing tremendous racism. If you notice some of the literature around building Catholic churches and Catholic [00:23:00] institutions, if you just take the same texts that were written on Catholics and remove the Catholic Church and the Pope and you just insert Islam and Muslim, you don't have to change much of the literature and at the time they were one and a half percent and they did a, I would say a deliberate strategic initiative in investing in higher education as a way to address their needs and now you look around the country. The Catholic institutions are the premier institutions in the country as well as if you look at their a k through 12 [00:23:30] schools as some of the best schools in this country are run by the Catholics. So in this sense a religious communities, I'm making a path and constructing a way for them both to address their own particular needs, but also contributing to shaping society in general is the longstanding tradition within the American society, but also across across the world.
Speaker 1:So do you also sort of take that as inspiration for future plans for [inaudible]? What's next for the college?
Speaker 4:Once again, the challenge of keeping the college running is the [00:24:00] biggest challenge right now. Uh, we're a 24, seven fundraising, uh, both to run for operation but also to provide all the needs of the students. There's, you know, we work on a five year plan, uh, acquisition of some housing for students. Uh, also possibly housing for faculty as the need to increase our faculty. One of the biggest challenge and once again in the bay area, it's the cost of housing that is making it prohibitive for us to be able to [00:24:30] attract the faculty talent with the cost bases that we have. So that will be another part of our project. And then looking down the line is to begin the project for uh, having the Master Phd Program and we're already in initial conversation with GTU to join as a member school within the GTU. So that's already in the initial stage of conversation. We will be joining having an master of divinity in Islamic Studies and possibly a phd track a few years after that, [00:25:00] joining them in all of the collaborative projects that they have joining the library. So all those are in the drawing boards for the next five years in terms of where are the steps that are needed.
Speaker 1:And right now you offer a Ba, an Islamic law theology with an optional honors program.
Speaker 4:It's a Ba in liberal arts with a focus on Islamic law and theology. And there is an honor program where students have to take a particular set of additional courses. We also have actually a, an endowment to, [00:25:30] uh, provide in particular women who want to take a stem track, uh, who want to go to medicine and injury. And we actually have an endowment where they could actually take courses here at Berkeley or city college to augment the Ba degree that we're offering. So they, if they want to apply to an engineering or a medical or MCB and so on, they're are able to do that. So that's already on the books and we're able to offer that for students who are coming in.
Speaker 1:So in addition to [00:26:00] the Graduate Theological Union GTU, what are other sort of organizations that you're partnering with the sort of strength in the college?
Speaker 4:What do we want? Definitely to have a strong relations with UC Berkeley. So that's something that we look forward to. A GTU, a San Francisco State University, Santa Clara University. Uh, we're working also with a ucs f for the chaplaincy program. So some of our students want to be chaplains in the hospitals. So they have a certification program and we're making the link where students can actually, [00:26:30] uh, they need to do about 80 hours of, uh, supervised chaplaincy training in the hospital. So that is open for them. Uh, in that way we have a relationship with Hartford seminary. So students want to finish from here, can go to Harvard seminary. We have a number of Miranda of understanding with the universities in Turkey. Uh, we had a visit from the, uh, uh, wife of the prime minister of Malaysia who are also likewise looking at cooperation in terms of higher education and [00:27:00] where can we engage in helping, uh, some of their projects.
Speaker 4:So once again, these are opportunities that will, uh, continue to expand and we're looking forward to continue to open doors of possibilities for our students and our institution. America has, it's, it's definitely open many possibilities and opportunities for people. So Islam and education go hand in hand. The first word in, uh, in the Koranic revelation was read and therefore there is no such [00:27:30] thing, at least from our perspective, you cannot have an Islam without having it being founded upon education. And therefore we celebrate the history in the past of a Islamic contribution, whether it's in initiating and building libraries. Uh, the notion of a public library is actually originates from the Islamic culture and Islamic civilization because it was such a commitment to public access and universal access to education. So I think being in here, being in the United States [00:28:00] and the impact and the importance of education in the modern age that we can see being in this country, being a Muslim without actually taking to uplift education, but also be a corrective because increasingly education has become corporatized where your knowledge is added to what kind of cubicle you can get. And I think that has, for me, that's a very problematic construct. Not that we don't peep, we don't need individuals to function and create [00:28:30] and work creatively in the economy. But that is not the purpose of education. That's what you do is not that what you know. And I think for us Zaytuna College, if it can help move in a corrective way, the emphasis that we have in education, then I think our impact and contribution will be monumental.
Speaker 1:So how can anyone get in touch with Zaytuna or possibly apply?
Speaker 4:Well, we're uh, available online so you could access our website, www dot [inaudible] dot edu and [00:29:00] we're also on Twitter, on Facebook. And you could also reach me myself, a hot and on.com on my own website as well as Twitter. And hopefully if, if you would like to be in a place that celebrates education and both knowledge in a triumphant position, uh, Daytona might be the place for you and we will come you to come and visit us for no other reason. That's [inaudible]
Speaker 1:and that's a tuna college@zaytuna.edu.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Dr Bozzi on for being on the show. Thank you [00:29:30] for having, you've been listening to method to the madness to biweekly public affairs show on
Speaker 2:k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Tune in again in two weeks at the same time.
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