Discussed Kevin’s startup, New Avenue Homes, which builds small buildings in urban backyards that can serve as affordable housing alternatives in neighborhoods where there are limited options
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Okay. [inaudible] okay.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:[inaudible] everyone knows that real estate is a huge problem in this country today. It's unaffordable, it's inefficient, and there just [00:00:30] isn't enough for to go around the places people really want to live. If you have any downs, just check out the price of a one bedroom apartment in San Francisco on craigslist. You'll see real quick that there's a big problem. Here's the president talking about
Speaker 1:another one of these problems. Energy efficiency earlier this summer,
Speaker 4:homes built in the first half of the last century can use about 50% more energy than homes that are built today, and because most of our homes and offices aren't energy efficient, much of that energy just goes to waste [00:01:00] while costing our families and businesses money, they can't afford to throw away the simple act of retrofitting these buildings to make them more energy efficient. Installing new windows and doors, insulation, roofing ceiling leaks, modernizing heating and cooling equipment is one of the fastest, easiest, and cheapest things we can do to put Americans back to work while saving money and reducing harmful emissions. [00:01:30] Insulation is second
Speaker 5:free stuff.
Speaker 4:Here's why. Here's what's sexy about saving money. Think about it this way. If you haven't upgraded your home yet, it's not just heat or cool air that's escaping. It's energy and money that you are wasting. If you saw $20 bills just sort of floating through the window up into the atmosphere, you try to figure out how you were going to keep that, but [00:02:00] that's exactly what's happening because of the lack of efficiency in our buildings.
Speaker 1:Well, wouldn't it be great if we could get around this problem of having to retrofit all these houses by building new houses that were energy efficient from scratch? Well, that would be great, but in places like the inner bay area, Berkeley, Oakland, San Francisco, that ship has already sailed. All the houses have been built, or at least we think they've been built because there's no more room to build any more new houses. But a new company out of Berkeley called New Avenue [00:02:30] homes is challenging this notion by building energy efficient, how's this in the backyards of other houses? Thereby solving multiple problems at once, creating new inventory for people to rent, as well as creating energy efficient houses that leave very little footprint in the environment today. On method to the madness. We interview Kevin Casey, founder of new avenue homes about his innovative model for housing stay with us.
Speaker 1:So the problem, we're addressing a [00:03:00] the housing affordable housing crisis, some people have said, um, but it really relates to people being able to afford a high quality, um, lifestyle, a nice quality home, um, living in areas that are growing in particular, like we address housing and growing economies like growing areas, growing economies, the bay area being classic example. Um, but basically the entire west coast and the entire southwest is got a lot of population growth. [00:03:30] And um, at the heart of the matter, I like to use the bay area example. Um, we basically can't sprawl any further to build affordable housing and we can build nice suburban houses out in Stockton, but people can't drive that far. It's like physically impossible. So the affordability, sustainability, and sort of the quality of life deteriorates. So we try to address that by creating smaller, nicer homes where people work and where people want to live.
Speaker 1:Okay. And is there what other kinds of solutions are out there for the type of problem you're addressing? Well, solutions [00:04:00] would be sources of housing. I mean, you've got mid-rise type developments that are really expensive. They're probably four times the cost per unit than we charge. You know, we can build a house for 100,000 roughly. Um, and for that you say a two bedroom house, a studio, or like a two bedroom apartment, um, or even a studio apartment in a typical four-story five-story mid rise apartment in a place like Berkeley would be three hundred thousand five hundred thousand give or take per unit. Per Unit. Yeah. So, you [00:04:30] know, there they're four times what we are. Um, but so there's infill like that, you know, apartment buildings and then there's suburban sprawl really. I mean, housing out. Like, if you want to buy a nice house right now, you can go to Tracy and get a great house for 150 or 250,000, but you're gonna be driving two hours to get to work.
Speaker 1:Um, so, and that's really, I mean, if you look at housing, I mean that's it. There's, while we're at sort of an innovative new model and then there's urban and fill apartment buildings and then there's sprawl [00:05:00] and that's it. We're on alternative yet. Okay, great. So tell me a little bit about your background and how you Kinda came to this. Um, well, my backgrounds, uh, more or less, it's Kinda funny. I, I think I turned, uh, I was in business school, I was 32 years old or so, and a reading a design magazine with lots of really nice houses. And I said, you know, why don't they make smaller? And it just kinda clicked and just kinda hit me. And I'd lived in New York City for 10 years with my wife where we lived in small places. Then we moved out here where it's [00:05:30] still expensive.
Speaker 1:Places are a little bit nicer, a little bit bigger, but still expensive. I was like, why can't they just make small, nice two bedroom homes for people like us? Uh, it turns out people like us, there's a bunch of us, you know, say younger folks that can't afford houses, there's a lot more people that are baby boomers and seniors that want to age in place, that have big old houses, that's too much house for what they need. So they oftentimes downsize. So my initial sort of personal need, um, drove the well spark the idea, [00:06:00] but then research sort of drove us another direction towards a whole different crowd. Um, but on a personal note, how'd I get here? I realized, kind of realized, I turned into my father when I was in my thirties because my father's nerving planner, my uncle's a general contractor builder. So I grew up when I was teenager, you know, moving piles of bricks around yards.
Speaker 1:Uh, so I kind of had the academic and then the actual exposure to the real work side. Um, and then studied economics. Had An interesting stint in Bali where I studied community development in international [00:06:30] development and they actually, they have alternative ways of living. They have a lot of mixed families and mixed generation households. So I got exposed to sort of alternatives to the American norm, um, and then went to Berkeley to get my MBA. And while I was studying there, I was reading that design magazines that, you know, we might be able to make a go with this. You know, something you said is really interesting where you said about you had the idea hits you when you're reading the design magazine, but then during research your, you found your target market to be something different. And that's very much, this shows very [00:07:00] much about kind of the creative process of creating new interesting and innovative ideas.
Speaker 1:Tell me a little bit about that process of the research phase of this idea. Um, yeah. Well I'd say I was probably influenced by one of the best, uh, professors I had at Haas, Steve Blank, who I'm sure is popular, you know, in whole startup circles. Um, and I think his, he's got a lot of lessons in his course, but the one that comes up 10 times per class is get out of the building and talk to people. So I sort of saw some pretty pictures, [00:07:30] had a decent idea, figured out, do, do a little research. Our research was, we went door to door in different communities around the bay area in particular. We went near Bart stations cause we said, well, if you're going to build small houses in existing communities, you might as well do it where there's transit. Uh, and then we just found out that in some neighborhoods, a lot of people who are dealing this other neighborhoods, no one's doing this.
Speaker 1:And then we asked people, you know, who did it, what was your motivation? You know, what's your over here? And it sorta slowly pulled us, um, you know, in that direction that we're going now. Um, and then also once we got a little bit of press and people started [00:08:00] calling us, you realize there are certain trends among people that are calling you. Um, so yeah, but we probably, the original idea was modular housing, which gets a lot of PR and sort of gets trumped up in the press. Uh, and we said, well, if we can get modular housing and we can make small homes and we can weave them into communities where people want to live, it's a no brainer, a modular housing we dropped within like three months cause that we just realized like you can't fit. It's like, you know, what's the phrase?
Speaker 1:A Square peg, round hole kind [00:08:30] of thing. It's just like you can't fit, um, big boxes down most of the streets that we would build on and you can't fit them between properties. You know, if you have an old community in Oakland for example, houses might be 12 feet apart on average or less. You know, you can't fit a 14 foot wide house down at 12 foot wide driveway. It just, or there's power lines in between and it's just impossible. So, so I try, jeweler house has something that just comes already built in a big box and you just drop it in and it comes from it's manufactured somewhere else. Yeah, it's built as a, there's lots, there's [00:09:00] different ways people try to build modular or or prefab. Um, at the end of the day, custom construction, uh, done by no well experienced well-experienced crews is more affordable. You get a higher quality product, you get custom design, you get a lot of stuff that people want.
Speaker 1:You just get a really, really nice home or you can get exactly what you want for a very marginal increase in costs or sometimes you'll save some money depending on the logistics of having a big box driven built in a factory [00:09:30] driven down the highway craned into place and all that. So, but yeah, to the point of innovation and all that, our original, one of our original ideas was dropped within a couple of months and we'll still do modular homes on occasion, but it's just not a core strategy or core product or anything. You are listening to k a l ex Berkeley 90.7 FM. Should be on the worldwide web@kalxdotberkeley.edu this is method to the madness, a 30 minute show, but the innovative spirit of the bay area. [00:10:00] And I'm your host Tallinn Huizar. Today's guest is Kevin Casey, founder of new avenue homes. Well, so you had your kind of moment of inspiration, excuse me, while I'm reading the design book.
Speaker 1:Um, and so let's talk about like how you translate that you did the research and take us to the timeline of actually launching this, which is, can be for many entrepreneurs, can be a very, um, daunting thing is to take the leap. You've got a great idea. [00:10:30] I have lots of friends who have millions of ideas, but they don't really take action on it. How did you break out through and take action on your first house? Well, so the first, well, first spark was, uh, August of 2008, so we're a good solid three years now. Um, that was between my first and second year of business school. And you know, at w I studied was getting my MBA at Berkeley. And, uh, the, well, one of the lucky things about business schools, you're, you know, you're not, you're [00:11:00] in school, you're not working, so you've gotta you've got time.
Speaker 1:So we did the research over the course of the year. I roamed around campus and found anyone and everyone I could find from engineering schools to the planning school to, you know, the business school, you know, Undergrad, you name it. Uh, the Berkeley labs had a, you know, a bunch of scientists that contributed great thoughts and sort of inspiration. Um, we ended up finding a client through one of these teams that I'd recruited and that's, well, another great help that we got was we picked up a grant from the Clinton Global Initiative, [00:11:30] uh, and we also got a grant from UC Berkeley. So we had an small sum of money that sort of gave us a little spark and kind of give us a little credibility that helped us recruit some teams. Um, and then through these teams and more or less talking to everyone, I could talk to you all day, every day for half a year.
Speaker 1:We ended up finding someone who became a client and that was enough to really, it's still nerve wracking. I mean, you know, coming out of a business school and walking away from on campus recruiting and pretty secure jobs. Um, but we [00:12:00] had a client, we had a tested idea and we had dozens of people that had contributed insights and sort of helped in the testing and the research. So, you know, we had seemed to have a pretty good shot at it. What was the process of getting the grant from the Clinton Global Initiative? Like, um, well cause at that point you just had a [inaudible] he didn't really have any. Yeah. Well it's funny. So it's one specific grant is really easy. It's a two page essay and you get it. But the reality is we applied to like [00:12:30] probably 50, maybe a hundred different grants. So it was a lot of time.
Speaker 1:Um, it's been great though. The Clinton global initiative that were still involved, they invited us out to CGI America a month ago. Um, and there's different events that we can sort of brought into. But uh, yeah, it was, I mean, at the end of the day we had, we had a couple of pages of a research paper. Um, it's like a mini white paper basically. Yeah. That we said we drafted and we edited that submitted and ended up getting picked for a grant. [00:13:00] Okay. And um, to the, does the CGI have, um, like a, a green building, like a cohort or something like that where you can, you know, mix ideas without the people who are doing the same thing, types of things? Yeah, I think we were in, um, a, well, they actually gave us, it was like a green home project is what they, they titled it, but it was within a energy and environmental tract that they have because yeah, they've CGI Clinton Global Initiative or Clinton Foundation as a whole.
Speaker 1:I mean, [00:13:30] most people know that goes everywhere. Like human rights too. While energy would be one of, they must have 10 different buckets. So they dropped people into, but yeah, we're on the environmental energy and environmental side. So we were put into that. We did, we've connected with a ton of students. Uh, it's really a fascinating organization, but uh, yeah, so we are in the energy and environmental group. Okay. That was it. So the early spark came from a couple of grants that you got and you got the first [00:14:00] client. Yep. So that first client was in Berkeley? Yes. Okay. And what were you going to build there? Um, so it was a single mother, lives in west Berkeley, works as a professor at cal and uh, had some family obligations and also had been interested in some income and also had an interest in just overall model.
Speaker 1:Um, so we, uh, we built a small studio with a loft, so you could argue, really stretch it a little bit to say it's a [00:14:30] one bedroom, but it's by, no, it's definitely a studio. It's a living room and upstairs loft, a kitchen and a bathroom. It's in the back corner of a house over in west Berkeley. So it's uh, I mean she wanted like a cute little cow cabinetry looking home and that's what we built, designed and built. And actually people, the response was overwhelming. We had an open house. Well the funny thing was she signed on September of 2009 designed because it was our first client. So basically it took a year to design it and build [00:15:00] it and get it permanent and get it done. And then we took a few months and then had an open house and that was like, by the time that timeline passed, it was January of this year.
Speaker 1:Um, we had an open house and I was expecting, well, I was hoping to get like 50 people or so, so I could get a picture and kind of put it up on the website and make it look like we had something exciting. We ended up having the mayor of Berkeley, mayor of Oakland came by the day prior. It was busy the day of, but well, former mayor of Oakland, but we had mayor of Berkeley, mayor of El Surrito, heads of a couple of nonprofits and then 500 [00:15:30] people stroll through. So that's when, that's when you really know you're kind of going the right direction. Um, so that was, yeah, that was good. I wouldn't call it a launch event. It was going to be a small open house, but that led to some press and some traffic and it was pretty good. And um, so the model is for peop for homeowners who have extra land in the back to create a income generating structure back there.
Speaker 1:Is that the general idea of it? Um, that's the general [00:16:00] idea. That's another will speaking of sort of figuring out what your clients, who your clients are. Um, our clients are smart and savvy and they view it as an investment, but that's not their motivation, you know, so they do the numbers, they say, okay. And they'll compare it. They'll take literally take money out of their IRA or their 401k. I just talked to someone, two people today who are doing that. Um, so they'll think it through, but that's not their motivation. Most people do it because they've got a family member or a friend or just a general sort of interest [00:16:30] in having someone around. So there's a, motivations aren't always number driven, you know, or, or return driven. So yeah, that's, that's it. But the model is really a people that have extra space.
Speaker 1:Well, a lot of our clients, there's different ways that segments, but there's remodels, there's additions and then there's new backyard cottages. So we'll do all three. Our focus is exclusively on something that has a kitchen and a bathroom. And as a real home, it doesn't have to be a distinct, separate [00:17:00] home in the back corner. Um, but most people that own a house can put something like this in. There's a California law that encourages it. So that gives people the right to do it. So, um, and we have designers that will help work with people depending on budget and goals and a sort of property features. We'll figure out whether in addition, a renovation or a distinct cottage makes the most sense. And what, why limit yourself to just kitchens and you know, you separate units. Why not just become a full [00:17:30] fledge, general contractor who does all sorts of stuff?
Speaker 1:Well, we are, well technically we are general contractor, although we usually use third party builders that are our partners and we partner with people that are in the towns where we're operating. Um, and, and those are generally licensed general contractors. Um, the reality is, well part of our model is, is that we're trying to help people create income producing properties that we can insecure the income, the, that will come off of that. [00:18:00] Which, what I mean by that is, uh, similar to, well, what I mean by that is we'll put, we'll put up the money and then when the client doesn't have to pay us, instead they can let their tenant repay us via the rent. Um, so what that means is people that have equity in their home but don't want to or can't get a mortgage or home equity or whatever, but they still want to either share their house with somebody who can afford to pay a nominal sort of a, at least a minimal rent or they want to make a couple of extra bucks.
Speaker 1:Um, there's an interesting crowd, [00:18:30] which is a huge number of people that, especially while in California in particular, and this crowd is people that own houses that maybe they're half a million dollar house. Maybe it's $1 million house. And you know, some people are living in $2 million houses, but a lot of these, like you go to nice communities. It doesn't matter if it's like Moran or Palo Alto or Berkeley, you've got all these, let's just say million dollar homes or half million dollar homes. Um, you've got a decent percentage of the, of the average block would be owned by people that bought the houses recently and paid big some. But then there's a significant percentage, [00:19:00] and I can't tell you exactly what it is, but in a lot of communities we do figure out it's 30 to 40% and these are people that have bought their homes, let's just say 40 years ago, and they paid off the mortgage and they're just living in it.
Speaker 1:And they might be surrounded by millionaires, but they're actually living off $20,000 a year, $30,000 a year. And the last thing they want to do is get a mortgage, get locked in a corner or possibly lose their house because they took out a loan that they can't pay. So for that scenario, we'll actually finance the second unit, we'll pay for it and we'll say, you don't have to pay us back and let the tenant pay us back. Um, and that's really our [00:19:30] model that we're pushing forward. And in order for that model to work, you have to have a kitchen and a bathroom and actually be able to rent it out. Um, OK. So that, that means that you guys have to line up the capital. Yup. All right. Yup. And so is that for, for your fundraising efforts as and mostly around for that purposes or I'm sure you need working capital for, yeah, we've raised a little, little bit of money.
Speaker 1:We're actually raising round like classic Angel Investment Financing from impact investors and people [00:20:00] that are sort of socially or environmentally motivated, but also some people that just think it's good business and think we're going to go public and make a bunch of money. But, uh, generally a mix of the two. But, uh, the, the real needs in this company are yet is institutional capital debt, uh, more traditional capital, larger scale so that we can just finance the cost to construction. Yeah. Because you're kind of going along the lines that the solar companies power purchase agreements where they, it's a very capital intensive business, uh, but then they have [00:20:30] all these contracts that are paying them, you know, fixed amounts for a long period of time. Although you have some, a little bit more risk than that, I would think. Because those homes have to stay occupied, there has to be a renter there to pay the money.
Speaker 1:Right. Um, yeah, there's certainly, um, renters are less reliable than electricity usage you might say. Um, but yeah, there's some, there's some additional risks. There's some higher return cause people pay more for rent than they pay for their electric bills. There's the execution [00:21:00] is the big challenge for us. I mean you've got to design a home that somebody that the primary homeowner wants. It's a lot different from throwing a solar panel on your roof. Um, so we've built up in house design staff. Um, that's really got a huge focus on entitlements, which is the building permits and the zoning permits. Um, and then structural engineering and then construction. So it's like for us, it's not just a rectangular panel that you plug in on the roof and you sign a contract and you finance it. It's, you know, creative design. Then there's dealing with building and planning department [00:21:30] personalities.
Speaker 1:Then there's construction and there's some different parties involved. You know, there's the primary homeowner, there's the tenant and there's personalities of people involved in the permitting process. You're listening to k a l ex Berkeley, 90.7 FM streaming on the world wide web. At kalx.berkeley.edu this is method to the madness, a 30 minute show about the innovative spirit of the bay area. And I'm your host Tallinn Huizar. Today's guest is Kevin Casey, founder of [00:22:00] new avenue homes. So let's talk about the design because there's a very much a green element to this, right? Sustainable Element. Talk about that kind of part of your business. Um, well the biggest win is I always kind of joke there's like two sides of green. There's the stuff that people pick cause they're green products, bamboo floors, recycle glass counters, you know, you name it. Like we have fire clay tile in one of our homes.
Speaker 1:It's recycled glass and it's a recycled [00:22:30] porcelain, you know, old sinks and stuff. And those are the products that are like sort of the fun sustainable products. And those are great. There's, I mean I love them, but what makes our product sustainable? Like our first home was net zero energy. And especially in the bay area, if you build a new house and you insulate it well and use decent windows, you're going to have an, and it's a small home. And it's near transit. And like we've run numbers where our houses are 90% less would use 90% less energy on average than like your average home in the same neighborhood, same community. [00:23:00] It's just because they're smaller, they're newer, they're well-insulated and that's the big win right there. So yeah, installation kind of takes the, the, um, excitement out of sustainability. It's like you put a lot of that in your, you pretty much want, especially if you're, you know, giving people the option to drop a car, take the bart to work and all that.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just, that's the win right there. Okay. So, so I'm from a materials perspective, you've got the wind, but also from the fact that you're designing from ground up [00:23:30] to be net zero. Yeah. And well, yeah. And then I guess one point is it's behavioral change. It's like instead of having a house that's got five extra rooms, you've got a house with one extra room, and then, um, instead of driving all the, and driving to work and doing whatever else you're, you're walking, riding your bike or taking a train. So those behavioral changes that the shrinking size and then changing the way you, your lifestyle really basically changing the way you live is the, is the one of the big upsides. [00:24:00] So your first house was in Berkeley. Uh, how many have you done since? We've got 12 underway now and for that we've finished.
Speaker 1:Um, so 16 total. Okay. And where are they scattered? Around the bay area. Anywhere from San Jose to a lot in Berkeley. Still Oakland, San Jose in between some on the peninsula. Um, San Antonio. If you had to compare the entitlement processes of different cities [00:24:30] with Berkeley is kind of famously, you know, bureaucratic. Is it the toughest or you don't have to answer that question? No, I'll tell Ya. Yeah. Um, Berkeley prides itself on being the toughest, but unfortunately it's actually not that bad. Berkeley's pretty fair. Um, it's still confusing. I wouldn't recommend trying to figure it out on your own. It's not worth the brain damage. Um, but it's just the planning process is tough everywhere. I was just, uh, San Jose is tough. Contra Costa County is tough. [00:25:00] The real problem actually if you want to get to the heart of the matter is um, cities tend to be decent.
Speaker 1:Counties tend to be really tough. So, and there's, there's a disk, they don't connect to each other necessarily. So you might be able to breeze through a city and get a permit in a month and it'll cost you three grand and you get surprised by $40,000 in fees from county traffic and sidewalk and park fees and all sorts of stuff. So Berkeley doesn't have that. So Berkeley's pretty good. Oakland's great inner East Bay is really good. [00:25:30] Peninsula gets a little tricky. I would think that the peninsula would be a great place for you in terms of people who would want this. Oh, it's, yeah, without a doubt. Um, future the companies, probably the peninsula, that's where the jobs are. Silicon Valley, one of my favorite examples of a sort of why people need these types of homes is I'm the Association of Bay area governments puts together sort of a job map for what's the sort of epicenter of the economy, which is Cupertino.
Speaker 1:Uh, in Cupertino, your average house is over 1 million bucks. [00:26:00] Um, but also in the bay area, your average income household income is 90,000, so it's 11 times your income to buy a house. If you're an average person with an average job at the center of our economy, you're not buying a house, you know, in order for you to buy a house that's affordable, you've got to go either two hours south pass Gilroy or two hours east out towards Livermore and all that. Um, which is just, you know, pretty tough. So, yeah, the peninsula, I mean, that's where it's where the jobs are. So it's where the people are. Um, next stop would be southern [00:26:30] California after that. So, so you're as a, an entrepreneur, you're getting to the classic stage of scale where you're, you know, you did one and it worked. Now you're getting press and things are happening and it becomes a whole new ballgame of how do you manage 14 concurrent construction projects.
Speaker 1:So how are you guys handling that challenge now? Well, fortunately we've got some good partners. Well, so we've got four people in the company [00:27:00] and we kind of do, well, we meet with the clients early on. We get through that design process, which is really architectural design and structural engineering. Um, and then we do the permitting as well. But we partner and we've been fortunate to get some really great contractors that we can work with in the different cities where we're operating. So the scale thing is, I mean, it's certainly, we've had over a thousand percent growth or in the past six months, you know, we went from one house to 10, um, and while the first couple of months [00:27:30] of this year. So that's certainly a big step up. Uh, at the end of the day though, it's, I mean, the way we're handling it is we've got, well division of Labor, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess that's classic way to do it, but we work with people who can handle, I mean, we've got in house capability to handle the paperwork for hundreds of homes and then we've got partners that can each do 50 homes. So it's, uh, the, the builder partners, I should say. So it's really, uh, you know, we're not going to sign up for 500 homes next year and try to do that. [00:28:00] It looks, certainly there would be tensions, but it's not that hard to go from one to 10, nor is it that hard to go from 10 to 50. Uh, at some point I'm sure we're going to hit some sort of pain point. Um, but for now it's going pretty well. So with that model, you would think that it would be conceivable in the next few years to go national with something like this? It would be good.
Speaker 1:It's a good idea. That division. That's usually the last question I asked is what's your vision five years from now with new avenue homes look like? Yeah, we'd certainly [00:28:30] like to be doing a thousand homes a year. Probably doing, it'd be great to do 10,000 homes a year. That'd be $1 billion a year company. Maybe not five years, but 10 years from now we'll get to a billion. Um, yeah, we'd like to make it so that anyone who wants one of these, we provide everything they need. The design, the construction, the financing. So it's just a matter of we provide all the resources. Homeowners need to be able to take their single family house and converted it into two homes. Um, so they can share it with a senior, a young couple, a family member, a friend. [00:29:00] So the vision would be to say, anyone in California or any of the other growing cities in the west or the southwest, um, who wants this type of home, who wants to convert their typical suburban home and, uh, to, you know, we'll be able to help them. Well, that's a powerful vision from a smart entrepreneur. We'd like to thank Kevin for joining us today on method to the madness. You can learn more about Kevin Casey's business.
Speaker 3:Do you have any homes that have to do half the homes.com you've been listening to mantra to the madness on Katie. Alex, [00:29:30] virtually went seven, 8:00 PM. You can learn more about us@methodtothemadness.org have a great labor day. Everybody get back [inaudible].
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