Host Lisa Kiefer speaks with Lloyd Kahn, Editor-in-Chief of Shelter Publications, home to books about building homes with your own hands, using mostly natural materials. His latest book is Small Homes: The Right Size. He believes small homes are less expensive, use less resources, and are more efficient to heat and cool, and cheaper to maintain and repair. Lloyd Kahn was the Whole Earth Catalog shelter editor in the late 60s and early 70s and has been publishing books on building for four decades.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next.
Speaker 2:You're listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing Lloyd Con, the editor in chief of shelter publications. He'll be talking about his latest book, [00:00:30] small homes, the right size
Speaker 3:[inaudible].
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the program and thanks for coming all the way from Bolinas today.
Speaker 4:Thank you. How was traffic? It was good because I come over early. I get an a San Francisco at seven in the morning and go to my favorite place, Cafe Roma and I spend a couple hours [00:01:00] there and then I come over to Berkeley and have breakfast with my friend and then I came here. You've been building books and building homes for the last 40 some years? Yeah. How did you get into this in the first place? When I was 12 I helped my dad build a house up in Calusa in the Sacramento Valley and it was a concrete block house and we would go up every weekend. It was about two hour, three hour drive, and we'd work on the weekends and holidays. And my job was to shovel sand and cement into a concrete mixer and [00:01:30] did that all summer. And I liked it. It was 12 and then one day when we got the walls up, they, uh, we were putting on the roof and they gave me a carpenter's apron and a hammer and nails and they let me nail down the siding on the roof.
Speaker 4:And I really liked that. I remember that Saturday, sunny, the smell of wood pounding the nails and that feeling of accomplishing something. And so that was my start with building. Then when I was 18, I worked on the docks in San Francisco for a shipwright. San Francisco was [00:02:00] a port in the forties and 50s and a ships would come in and they'd load the cargo and then we would go in and build us a wooden structure inside the ship so the cargo wouldn't shift around. So that was rough carpentry. And then the third phase, I guess was in 1960 my wife and I bought three quarters of an Acre in mill valley that had an old summer home on it. And so I started building, the first place I built would have been in 61 was a studio with a sod roof. Like they now they call it a living roof.
Speaker 4:So I just started [00:02:30] building and then I got into a very complex remodeling of a house and I had to learn as I went along. And so I, I wish I could have worked with a, a journeyman carpenter to learn how to build properly, but I just had to figure it out as I went along. And so as I went on and went on building more things and eventually quit my job as an insurance broker and went to work as a builder, I was looking at building from like kind of a layman's perspective, you know, and okay, you don't know what to do here, you're gonna have to figure it out. [00:03:00] And I figured that I could show other people who were starting from scratch, that it's possible to build your own house. And so I eventually got into doing books on building. You had a stint in big Sur.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I read something that you were working with geodesic domes. Bucky Fuller's geodesic domes and you learned, I got a job, was a foreman on a, on a building, a house in big Sur out of a bridge timbers who was a big timber house. He was on a 400 Acre ranch and uh, three of us moved down [00:03:30] there from Mill Valley to build this house. And it was, um, the timbers were really big and heavy while we were building at Buckminster Fuller, came to Esalen and gave a seminar. So we went over and heard him talking about lightweight buildings and we're struggling with this big building. And so the three of us, myself and two brothers from mill valley, we got into building geodesic domes. I went on to eventually get a job at a alternative high school in the Santa Cruz mountains [00:04:00] on 40 acres where we built 17 geodesic domes.
Speaker 4:And probably 1967 to 69 or 68 to 70 the the people who ran the school wanted to turn it into a boarding school, so they hired me to come teach the kids how to build as they, they built their own houses, domes. I did two books on dome building at that time and the second one was called Dome Book Two and by the time dome book who sold maybe 160,000 copies, I realized that [00:04:30] domes didn't work, so if you have to admit you're wrong in front of that many people, it was great because from thereafter, I've never been afraid to say I was wrong. Yeah, that's what I said a year ago, but I don't believe that anymore. I thought, well, they tend to leak. They're hard to add onto. If you want to add on to a vertical wall, you just build a roof off of it.
Speaker 4:If you want to add onto a dome, you have to tie into all these different facets, all the different triangles that are going in different directions. If you want to subdivide it inside, [00:05:00] it's the same problem. Well, you're, you're cutting up would say plywood into triangles. They're never going to be usable again. You're cutting up the struts, which are the framing members into three and four foot sections. That's, that's not going to be usable and it's torn down. Eventually I did a, a, a p a little publication called re fried domes. It was a newsprint publication. And basically, so many people are asking me this question, you know, what's wrong with domes that I decided to do this? A little newsprint publication, I think it's 64 pages. [00:05:30] So I said, here's my experience with domes. Here's why I don't think they work, but here are the best thing about them was with for me was getting into geometry and understanding, uh, the basic solids, you know, understanding what an icosahedron was and a dodecahedron.
Speaker 4:And so here are the model making the instructions, which that, that's really fun. And then here are the chord factors. Here's the mathematics if you want to build domes. So I did. And on our website, which is sheltered pub.com [00:06:00] there's a, if you go to look for domes, you can find all this information there. If you want to know why I took dome book two out of print after it's sold all these copies. And I figured, well if even less than two people read every copy, that's a quarter of a million people and they all think that domes are Kipp. Cool. You know, it was sort of the, it was, I mean I was in life magazine Time magazine. Everybody thought the dorms where the, where the icon of shelter for the 60s, which turned out to be wrong. [00:06:30] And so, well, I've got this pretty big audience. I better show them there are a lot of other ways to build.
Speaker 4:And so I took about a year and traveled with cameras and um, studied building in this country in Canada and in Europe and came back and did the book shelter, which was a large oversized book, like the whole Earth Catalog and had about a thousand photographs and was kind of the history of building and, uh, indigenous building, a section on materials, Straw Bale Wood [00:07:00] stone. And the heart of the book was five little buildings where we drew every stick of wood in the building, a flat roof, a gable roof, a steep gable roof, a gambrel roof. It was tiny houses or small houses was the heart of the book. And that was in 1973 and we said, okay, if you're going to build on a piece of land, hopefully you'll go there and camp out and watch which way the moon rises and where the winds come from and the rain. Then when you start [00:07:30] to build, once you just build a little place to start with. So the heart of that book 44 years ago was tiny homes, small homes, and I'm way ahead of your time. Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean it really caught on hop forward to 2005 or something, 2006 and there's a tiny house movement and so at that time we did a book called tiny homes and so we sort of hit that right at the right time.
Speaker 1:[00:08:00] And
Speaker 2:if you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm talking with Lloyd Con, the Editor in chief of shelter publications and independent California publisher specializing in books on the building and architecture. This latest book is small homes, the right size. [00:08:30] How did you meet Stewart brand and [inaudible]
Speaker 4:get involved with the whole earth catalog after that house and building that house in big surf for the architect a, I built my own house down there and I started building domes after I built my house. I was kind of isolated, you know, 40 miles down. It was right near Espolon and 40 miles down from Monterey Pacific grow. I started getting letters from people all over the country asking for the mathematics on domes. And I thought, well, I'm writing the same letter to everybody. [00:09:00] Why don't I just mimeograph something and I can send it out to, you know, I don't have to write an individual letter and go, well, at the same time I'm learning stuff about organic gardening and making your own shoes and a, you know, a lot of the things that we were into in the 60s. So I'll just kind of put all that together.
Speaker 4:And then I met Stuart brand, uh, over in Menlo Park and the December, I think it was, and he was way ahead of me. He had it all organized, he had books on all these things and he was working on the first whole earth catalog. So that's how I met him. And [00:09:30] then after he did the first catalog in 1968, uh, I went to work for him as the shelter editor of the whole earth catalog. And a, a real significance of that for me was I learned how to make books from Stewart and Stewart learned from a newspaper. Well, the IBM composer was how you set type. It was a $10,000 typewriter. It was the next step after hot lead after lineup type. And so in the 50s newspapers, magazines switched over to this. It was a, it was the IBM typewriter, the type that had a font [00:10:00] of ball, you know, like to Selectric.
Speaker 4:People are familiar with a selectrix well this was just a high end Selectric. That's how we made books back then. Books are beautiful and I think they kind of that resemble the whole Earth Catalog format. The whole Earth Catalog was 11 by 14 and so with shelter and I've never done a book that big. Well for one thing, they're expensive. But the other thing is bookstore shelves don't accommodate big books like that. They did in the, in the 70s when there were a bunch of books out there that were large. I wish I could do [00:10:30] one like that, but, but our books, our am, each of our books has got a thousand photographs in it. They're pretty graphic. I wanted to ask you, you seem to focus on building your own home, but small homes, all your books, or at least the ones I'm familiar with are kind of about tiny or small.
Speaker 4:Can you differentiate between tiny and small and talk about why you think now that small homes are the way to go versus tiny? The media loves tiny homes. They're very photogenic. They go in the opposite direction of the houses [00:11:00] that were getting bigger and bigger. Even children, little five-year-olds. They like tiny houses, tiny homes, because they can relate to them. The book we did was under 500 square feet. Some of them are on wheels. It's tiny homes. Tiny homes. Yeah. And then, and then we did a book called tiny homes on the move, which was about nomadic, tiny homes on wheels or in the water basically. I thought, well, you know, not a lot of people are in spite of all the, there's TV shows on tiny homes, which are basically phony [00:11:30] a, they're like reality shows and there's all this attention. If you, you know, every day there's articles on tiny houses or tiny homes, but it's not realistic that many people are gonna want to live in a 200 square foot house.
Speaker 4:If a couple, uh, does that, you're going to have to get along pretty well and maybe each have your own tiny home. Uh, but uh, so then we started, so I started collecting on homes in the 400 to 1200 square foot category. So that's what small homes is. That's what the small homes [00:12:00] book most recent book is. Small homes. Yeah. Right size. And that has a lot more relevance to a lot more people than tiny homes. But tiny homes is still got that cache, you know, it's a buzzword. Cities have started to embrace the idea. Even Berkeley a lot in the northwest and northern California of using them for homeless populations as or for, you know, putting in your backyard because of the high cost of grants. Is this a bad solution in your opinion? No, it's a good solution. I mean, but, but a small homes are really more relevant than tiny [00:12:30] homes.
Speaker 4:I mean, I don't know if Berkeley's doing it, but Santa Cruz and Portland, Oregon and Vancouver have ordinances that allow you to build a like a granny flat in the backyard. So your mom's 93 years old and you don't want to spend 60 grand a year for her. You can't in a rest home, you build a little place in the backyard and these cities have made it easier for you to do that without having, just like start from scratch because you've already got sewer, water and electricity there, so you don't need a full blown new building building permit. [00:13:00] So that's, I think that's a really a great thing. And that's starting to happen here too. Yeah, we're working on those. And those are legal. What is the average size of these granny flats that you're talking about? I don't think they are small. No. I would think they'd be in a five, 600 700 square feet versus the, yeah, I mean when you get up to four or 500 debt, that's kind of decent.
Speaker 4:If it's, if it's a, if the architecture is good, if the interior's designed well, you know, that's a good size. That's a good thing that's happening. There's a lot of attention being given [00:13:30] to tiny homes for homeless people. I mean there's problems like sewage, I mean cheese I just saw in Berkeley this morning just to really, you know, you know, just look like a third world country with these guys camped out in garbage all over the place and you know, what else are they going to do? Are they going to go, it's not important that everybody live in a tiny home, but it's important that things get smaller, that they go in that direction. The American house, typical American houses like 2,800 square feet. So these, the largest of these quotes, [00:14:00] small homes is about half that size. And also if you're building for yourself, which a lot of our people do, you can build and then you can add on a smaller house is cheaper to build, cheaper to heat and cool.
Speaker 4:Um, more practical, quicker to build. I think our people as say opposed to dwell magazine, people are do it yourself, people to all magazines. Very, I mean, I, it's, it's OK. I mean it's, um, there, but they're very sterile looking to me. [00:14:30] There's never anything out of place. My own house and people who are attracted to that kind of lifestyle, our houses might be messy. Uh, you know, they're, they're, they're center around the kitchen there that we hopefully have a vegetable garden. They seem to be very individual there. They're all over the place. Some of them are in cities. The personality of the house, well, some of them are in cities. Like there's a, two families in San Francisco bought a house, uh, and made it into a duplex legally so that they, they split the cost. So that lowers your costs in an expensive [00:15:00] city to have.
Speaker 4:And another couple bought a rundown house in La for like $200,000 and worked on it and worked on it and fixed it up. So there are things you can do in cities. And the big thing, I think maybe almost one of the most important things, like back in the 60s we want to define 10 acres in the country and build a log cabin or so and Adobe house. Now I think if I were young, if I were in my twenties, thirties, I would look around in towns and cities at these small homes that are [00:15:30] in marginal neighborhoods. You know, say at Richmond, like I go around and I look a lot these little houses there, they're in Berkeley, they're small. And if you find an area that's maybe just recovering from, from being, you know, drug infested, you know, uh, and, and uh, you know, that been maybe the, the drug dealers have moved out and, and so if you buy, you can buy a small home and fix it up.
Speaker 4:And so in this book, I have probably 80 photographs of these little houses and a lot of them are in Berkeley, Oakland, Richmond, I, [00:16:00] I say to people, okay, if I were looking around now, I would look in [inaudible], forget Berkeley, forget Albany, forget Marin County, forget Sausalito. But I would go look in Vallejo, San Leandro, Hayward, you know, these, uh, Pinole, uh, Rodeo, you know, I'd go look in these, these, you know, or, or small towns up in the Sacramento Valley. What happened in Sausalito is kind of typical, is that the artists first moved there because it's beautiful and wonderful. And then you have the [00:16:30] lawyers and accountants and people, doctors start paying a lot of money for the places in Sausalito or mill valley. And pretty soon it's not, you know, the artists have to move on. And so those places it's gone. I mean, the house, the cost of homes in effect, the whole bay area, uh, you know, is just absurd.
Speaker 4:You know, unless you're making $300,000 a year. So we're at a point we have to quit extracting materials. We have to do that. Yeah, well, all these little [00:17:00] houses or you know, you've got the foundation, you've got to start. And so another thing about the sixties was it was a time, it was the most rich time and probably the history of the world. You could live on such a small amount of money back then, I mean, gas was 35 cents a gallon. There was this period when it was, it was after the war. Everything was booming and so you could take the time off to figure out what you wanted to do. Like if you wanted to change your life, I could work on building a house without having a full time job. Nowadays, it's more [00:17:30] tricky. What I did actually, when I was working as an insurance broker, I went home and built every night and on the weekends, so I was doing both of those things.
Speaker 4:You know? Again, it was, you know, you could live on less money back then, so it's trickier now, you know? But I think still if you do it yourself, if you build it yourself, you're going to save 50% to begin with because a building is 50% labor and 50% materials. Jill, if you provide all the labor, then if you don't get a mortgage, you're [00:18:00] going to save another 50% because mortgages, you pay more in interest and you do in principle, prices rise every year, but still, so you can do any varying amounts of the work yourself. Maybe you're just going to hire somebody to do all the work, you know, but where maybe you're going to hire a carpenter and work along with them, you know, hire a plumber and help out. And so there's all shades of a [inaudible]
Speaker 2:creates good community too. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Is another benefit. Yeah. [00:18:30] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. A weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm talking with Lloyd Con. Lloyd is a builder of books in homes for over 40 years. The message in Lloyd Con's books is that you can create your own home with your own hands using mostly natural materials.
Speaker 3:[00:19:00] Yes,
Speaker 2:a lot of homes. Do you know that you've visited a lot at, what's your favorite small home? Where is it? Do you have one?
Speaker 4:I have a favorite. Uh, well I it burned down, but, um, it was, it was on a Hornby island in British Columbia. Why was it your favorite? It was just awesome. It was just, it was built by, well, my favorite builder in the world that I met after 40 years of studying builders [00:19:30] and homes. Turns out his name was Lloyd House. So Lloyd, I mean he's not in the books or anything. He's the most wonderful designer and builder in the world I think. And he built a house. Uh, it's one of those things, you have to see it to understand how, how wonderful and beautiful it was on an inappropriate, just the, the windows, the materials, the light, the setting. And it's in the book builders of the Pacific coast. It's called Stefan's house. Uh, but then I have another friend, my other best friend [00:20:00] in the world, Louis Frazier, as built couple of wonderful buildings. And my favorite buildings are in our books. Louise building is in homework, kind of the sequel to shelter. It came in 2004 and then builders of the Pacific coast, which is mainly builders in British Columbia was 2008 and then tiny homes, tiny homes on the move and then small homes and forthcoming of book on the 60s
Speaker 2:well, let's talk about that. I was going to ask you, you've, you've been focusing on homes. What are you gonna say about the sixties?
Speaker 4:There are TV [00:20:30] shows, books, magazine articles, museum exhibits right now because of the quote, uh, 50th anniversary of the summer of love and I'm including Berkeley, had hippie modernism. The Victorian Albert Museum in London had a, you say you want a revolution, a, there's an exhibit right now at the Dion. All this stuff has been coming out in the last three or four months and I'm looking at it and thinking that isn't the way I sought at all. And uh, this is all wrong or [00:21:00] this is at least, this isn't my version of it. I was born in San Francisco, I went to high school and the Haight Ashbury and I dropped out of the insurance business in 1965 because I was more interested in the counterculture than I was in my own generation. So I was looking at at all of that from a slightly different perspective. And so I watched, I lived in Mill Valley, uh, and I was going into San Francisco.
Speaker 4:And so I thought, well, it may be, it's not that, it's not that these guys are wrong, it's just that I have my own view [00:21:30] of the 60s. And also there was the fact that the 60s changed my life, changed my life. So I'm saying, okay, here's what I saw happen, you know, and here's what was happening in 1963 in 1967, the summer of love, it was basically all over. Ken Keasy said something I read recently said that it's Haight Ashbury was a neighborhood. Uh, the 60s was a movement and everybody's focusing on the Haight Ashbury and the diggers and Peter Coyote. Well, the diggers were hard edge New Yorkers [00:22:00] who got to the Haight Ashbury kind of late and kind of took over. The people I knew left by then I started shooting pictures in the 60s and uh, so I've got black and white pictures. So I'm going to do a book that's different looking from the other books and saying, here's what you know, here was the Monterey pop festival.
Speaker 4:Here's what happened there. And here's what happened. When I lived down in big surf for two years, you know, I was part of the 60s I wasn't in the Haight Ashbury and here were the first dances, you know, here's what it was like in San Francisco on those years. [00:22:30] And when this coming out, well, a project like all my projects is people say, well how do you, how do you build a house? And I say start. If you start, most likely you're going to be able to do it because as you go along, you'll, you'll learn as you go and you'll get a momentum. And so working on a book, I'll start on a book and I'll see if it looks like it's happening. And so I've started on this book about a month ago and it seems like it's working today. I kinda hit another octave in it, a working for an hour and a half on it [00:23:00] this morning on my laptop.
Speaker 4:So I was an insurance broker for five years, 1960 65 I took a month off the insurance business and hitchhiked across the country to sort of think things out, like my walkabout. And I stayed in New York for a while and went out and visited my cousin who lived in, he was an artist in province town on Cape Cod and I was hitchhiking back into New York and I got picked up by these kids who were going to the Rhode Island School of design. Well you want to stay at our loft? You can hang out there if you want. Oh sure. Well we're going to a Bob Dylan concert night. You want to go? Yeah. [00:23:30] So it was $3 to get in. 1965 October I think. So I go to the concert, didn't really know much about Bob Dylan. I wasn't a folk music fan. The first half he did folk music.
Speaker 4:If the cops let me get right up next to the stage, I said I was a reporter, I'm sure. Okay. So I had a camera, second half these guys come out with electric guitars. Oh, what's this? And so, so I shot pictures and a lot of people booed and walked out when he did the electronic music. And so years later I'm looking back at these pictures and I'm looking at this [00:24:00] guy saying, well that's Robbie Robertson. That's Rick Danko. It's like, that's the band. So anyway, so I, I, that's a nice little pictorial part. Oh yeah, it was, it was, yeah. And I, I've gone back and read about that period. And in fact there's, um, some records that have just come out in the last year on new bootleg albums from 1965 to 66 when he was, he started out at the Newport Jazz Festival with Mike Bloomfield playing the guitar. And then, you know, he hooked up with the band.
Speaker 4:That'll be part of the book and then, yeah, [00:24:30] it's going to be fun. What you said that you think of the 60s as a movement. Yeah. Do you see any similarities in these small home movements today that you know that the millennials, what I think it is 20 year olds that I love those guys because they are, it's like they're discovering the 60s they're saying, hey, hey, what you guys were doing back then was pretty cool. They're reading the shelter book, which is, I don't know, four decades old and they're like it. So I think, I think that the millennials are a completely different group from their previous generation [00:25:00] and that's what's happening. They're looking back at that stuff and they like that they, they don't want to work for Google or maybe they want to work for Google, but they, they want to incorporate some of these things in their lifetime.
Speaker 4:You know, like you don't have to do it all. I mean, maybe you're not going to have a great big garden. Maybe you live in New York, you're going to grow chives on your fire escape big consumers either. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's what's happening with the millennials is that they recognize what was going on back then. And actually it all kind of dovetails [00:25:30] with k. So here's all this, uh, attention now on the 60s with all these exhibits and all these TV programs and let's look at the 60s and figure out what worked and what, and a part of my book is going to be what didn't work. You know, that's kind of fun to think about it. It was stuff that did not work. You know, people are gonna want to get hold of you Lloyd. How can they best do that? Instagram and then a blog called Lloyd con.com and that's k to two Alto, y.
Speaker 4:D. K h. N. I've done over 5,000 posts [00:26:00] on my blog. And then we also have a thing called the shelter blog, t h. G, the shelter blog. And then our website is sheltered pub.com we're, we're trying to use social media. I mean basically we, I want to do books and uh, we're, we're, I'm about to do a series of, of books that are print on demand books. The first one's going to be a driftwood architecture, a driftwood shacks, anonymous architecture on the California coast. It'll be like a 48 page color book. And then, [00:26:30] you know, various small books, small, you know, there's, there's a magazine article and then there's a book and then there's a booklet a, there are some things that don't warrant a whole book. You know, like I could do a 32 or 64 page book on Southeast Asia, but I can't do a 200 page book without spending years there.
Speaker 4:So there are options now that I'm about to explore with doing small print runs and to get information out there. And how do people find your books? Are they available on earned bookstores? [00:27:00] They're Amazon. We can encourage people to go on to bookstores. Good. You know, they say the old is new again. Well that's not the whole picture. It's like the oldest being reconsidered in light of the new now. So you've got digital recording and then you've got vinyl is making a big comeback because there's a quality to the analog that you don't get with the digital. So I think you have to balance those things. I mean, you can balance those things. So it's kind of fun to think how can I bring some analog [00:27:30] into this digital world? You know, how can I do stuff for myself and look at my hands, you know, to look at our books, really the best way to do it.
Speaker 4:Or look at the blogs or look at what I'm doing and, and maybe pick up on some of the, the ways of doing things for yourself with shelter or with food that don't have to be all encompassing that, that that's maybe you're not going to spend full time building a house or farming or gardening, but that you can incorporate some of those things into your life. And [00:28:00] so I'm not responsible for online stuff that people do for whatever they do in the digital world. But I think that the value of our work is that here are things that you can do with your own hands that will make your life richer. And we'll end. We'll be, we'll produce results that will make your life richer, but there will be also good in the doing. And that are also sort of basic, um, human skills that have only been neglected for the last maybe a hundred years.
Speaker 4:Like since the industrial revolution, [00:28:30] you know, before that everybody created their own food and shelter. So maybe you go back and you kinda do some of those things, weave it into your life. You know, when you're still checking your email every day and, and your computer is not going to build a house for you. You still need your hands and you still need a hammer. And a saw, you know, could be a nail gun and an electric saw. But it's still, so those things, it's kind of comforting to me that, that that's still the way food and shelter are provided [00:29:00] to, you know, just you, you do it, you know
Speaker 2:yourself. Well, thank you for being on the program. That was Lloyd Kahn, editor in chief of shelter publications where he's been writing about small homes. For the last four decades. You've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. [00:29:30] You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be taking the month of August off at method to the madness. We'll be back again Fridays in September.
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