Non-profit Perennial Farming Initiative Executive Director Nathan Kaufman believes food is our best resource in fighting climate change through projects like Aquaponics, Carbon Farming, a healthy soil guide, and growing regenerative and perennial grains.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public fair show on [00:00:30] k a l x Berkeley celebrating fate area innovators and your host, Lisa Keifer. And today I'm speaking with Nathan Kaufman, executive director of the Perennial Farming Initiative, a nonprofit organization dedicated to combating climate change from a culinary perspective.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the program. Nathan, thank you so much for having me. You're the executive director of the perennial farming initiative here in the bay area, [00:01:00] both in San Francisco and over here in the East Bay. What are the problems you're trying to solve with the perennial farming initiative?
Speaker 4:So for us, it's, you know, trying to make transformative change in the food system. For us, I think it's especially about engaging individuals to use their consumer power to create the changes that they want in the food system every day.
Speaker 3:What are some of the projects you've started in order to do that?
Speaker 4:Why don't we start with the greenhouse? Okay. Yeah. So we manage greenhouse over in West Oakland, which [00:01:30] is basically set up to capture all of the food waste or the bulk of the food waste from the restaurant. So what we do is in the kitchen, our food scraps, you know, when they're doing prep, we'll split that into vegetable waste and basically everything else, our vegetables are fed to red wiggler worms, standard composting worms. A lot of folks in Berkeley, you'll know about those, our meat and our dairy and our bread, all of this stuff, you know, that can't be fed to worms. We feed to what are called black soldier fly larva to basically a fly, you know, while it's still a Grub, [00:02:00] we then harvest our worms and our Grubbs periodically uh, dehydrate them and use them as a feed to raise white Pacific sturgeon and blue channel catfish. We then utilize the manure produced by those a sturgeon and catfish as a fertilizer to grow hydroponic vegetables, which then ultimately go back to the restaurant.
Speaker 3:Sounds like a full closed loop of sustainability. Yeah. You also are involved in carbon farming. Yeah. So it is carbon farming.
Speaker 4:So carbon farming is [00:02:30] basically a way of ranching that actually increases the amount of carbon in the soil rather than decreasing it. Cattle can be really, really detrimental for soils if not managed correctly. You know, they'll eat grass down to the bare root, exposing it to sunlight, basically killing the grass. Uh, what we do in a managed grazing setting is move those cattle around more frequently and keep them on smaller pastures. This basically keeps them from eating the grass down all the way [00:03:00] so that essentially in you know, 20 or 30 days whenever they, you know, do the full rotation and come back to that pasture, it's fully regrown. The big emission with cattle grazing is the methane production that we're associated with them. What carbon farming has shown is basically by having these managed grazing techniques, you can actually sequester more carbon into the soil.
Speaker 4:Or rather the offset is such that the amount of carbon sequestered into the soil by allowing those grasses to stay [00:03:30] healthy, allowing s the soiled remain covered is greater than the methane emission associated with the cattle. Know today. Current practices, especially on large farms is what so on on, you know, most cattle ranches, you see like a calf cow operation where it's essentially, you know, you have a really large property, say a thousand acres and your cattle have free range over all thousand acres. So they're going to go to the best spots. They're going to, you know, like most of us cows are lazy. They don't want to walk, you know, walk up [00:04:00] six mile trek every single day. But if you think about what they'd be doing in nature, date, of course, be dealing with predators and they'd have to be finding new source of water. So that movement, um, is really what's important in managed grazing.
Speaker 4:And that's the way it used to be, right? Yeah. Long ago when we first, Oh yeah, think about, you know, Willdabeast on the Serengeti, you don't see one over here and one over there. Do you see all 200,000 in a tight little clump. They're all fighting to be the one in the center and they're moving constantly. [00:04:30] So they're not eating the grass down completely. They're depositing their maneuver in really dense concentrations. So it actually is a huge boost of fertilizer for that soil because they're so dense. They're also actually work, you know, kind of working the, and massaging, uh, their manure into the soil with their hooves. So, you know, all sorts of ways that benefits the soil.
Speaker 3:I also read that the perennial farming initiative has been working with bakers, farmers, millers and food activists to make the bay area [00:05:00] a hub for regenerative and perennial grains. What are you doing with regenerative grades?
Speaker 4:So what we've done is taken [inaudible], which was developed by the Land Institute. It's a perennial wheat grass. So we serve at a variety of ways at the restaurant. Uh, we have a standard bread and butter, you know, Kerns a toast and butter. It's a house made butter housemate bread. Very delicious. We also do a seasonal toast. Um, so right now it Keratin toasted walnut, you know, in a few weeks it'll be cherry tomato in [00:05:30] a, you know, a few weeks after that there'll be cauliflower. You know, it's really just the moving with the seasons, but onset currents of bread. We also have occurrence of beer produced by Patagonia provisions. So really for, you know, for us it's great to have a variety of different things on the menu. Um, that all show exhibit how a perennial grain can be just as delicious, if not more than what you think with an annual.
Speaker 3:What is so special about this? What makes it part of the sustainability? Yeah, so
Speaker 4:what's so special about currency is [00:06:00] the fact that it's a perennial. So for annual wheat grass, you would grow it out, you'd harvest and then you till your soil afterwards. Tillage is good for farmers generally they're, you know, doing it to increase the aeration of the soil. They're doing it to increase a water retention. You know, essentially they're going and spading this, the fields so that it breaks up the surface of the soil. What this does though is it also releases a lot of the carbon stored in the soil by exposing all those microorganisms, which have previously [00:06:30] been, you know, several inches to several feet below the surface. By digging those all up, it rapidly decomposes a lot of those, uh, microorganisms. The carbon's released. What's Nice about Kearns, uh, is there isn't the root requirement for tillage. So first of all, you're not breaking up the soil.
Speaker 4:And secondly, Kearns, uh, can grow roots, you know, tens of feet deep versus your two, three, four foot annual wheat. Um, so the sheer ability to store carbon via its, you know, its rhizome deeper and deeper into the soil, [00:07:00] gives it a far better carbon sequestration, uh, capacity than annual wheat. Has the interest in carbon farming come about because of the percentage of carbon release through agriculture? Do you know what that is? Oh definitely. So it's quite comparable to the emissions associated with all transport, all cars, your shipping, your commercial shipping lanes, everything. So if we, you know, and the thing that we don't talk about is that unlike taking cars off the road, if we change our agricultural practices, we not only have the ability to reduce these emissions, [00:07:30] we have the ability to reverse these emissions. There are few things that have the ability to actually take carbon from the atmosphere and store them in the soil. Plants have been doing it for billions of years. So what we, you know, we're trying to do is basically just co-opt what nature has been doing forever. Step back and let it, let it do its thing.
Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. A weekly public affairs show on [00:08:00] k a l x Bertram Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Nathan Kaufman, the executive director of the perennial farming initiative. It's a nonprofit organization that believes food is our best resource in the fight against climate change. [inaudible] one of the projects you're doing is aquaponics
Speaker 4:[00:08:30] in West Oakland. Can you describe what that is? Basically, aquaponics is the conjunction of fish farming, aquaculture and hydroponics. Hydroponics is basically just growing plants without soil. So if I was talking about growing in soil, it'd be geopolitics. Uh, instead we're using a water solution. What we do is use our manure produced by our fish as a fertilizer for those hydroponic vegetables. So we grow a lot different leafy greens, uh, edible flowers. Are they sitting right on the water? So we have a variety [00:09:00] of production methods. We do. We have what's called a deep water culture bed where basically you have a raft sitting right over the water. The roots grow down in, this is great for like leafy Greens, watercress is salaries, stuff like that. We also have what's called a nutrient film system where basically a small trickle of water runs over the roots.
Speaker 4:We also actually utilize that same fishermen newer to do soil based agriculture. So we have raised beds on our farm as well, where basically we're just uh, what's called fertigating. We're [00:09:30] fertilizing and irrigating at the same time through a drip irrigation system. Where are you located in Oakland? So we're right off of West grand on 23rd do you invite schools to come and look and see what you're doing or can people come and see? Yeah. So we've worked with a, a couple of charter schools and a couple of private schools so far, but we're definitely working on trying to make a better program to start to be able to offer field trips for public school programs and how to do this exact, yeah, I mean, can regular people with race gardens, is this something I could do at my home in Berkeley? Oh [00:10:00] yeah. What's part of what's so cool about aquaponics is it's, it's scalable.
Speaker 4:It's something that, you know, I've worked on 10 acre aquaponic farms that are producing hundreds if not thousands of pounds of vegetables a day. And I've also, right now got a 10 gallon aquaponics system sitting on my kitchen counter, you know, that I use to grow parsley and kitchen herbs. So what's cool about it is that it's the same principle whether you're growing acres and acres of produce or handfuls of [00:10:30] produce. Really it's the same process. Um, we rely on a beneficial ecology in the water. So we rely on what are called nitrify ing bacteria. They take the ammonia that fish produce via their metabolism. They break it down into nitrate. You can kind of think of nitrate as miracle grow. It's, it's just great, great for plants. And, uh, as the plants absorb that nitrate use it to grow, they actually remove it from the water, keeping the water nice and clean for our fish.
Speaker 4:So it's a great kind of symbiotic system. The fish stay nice [00:11:00] and happy and clean water. The plants get all the nutrients they need. What are you doing or are you involved in any nationwide initiatives working with large corporations because the rest of the country and especially the rural areas suffer from food deserts and absolutely. Yeah. So we, we do have like nationwide partners, so we work with the Lens Institute on their current project. Uh, you know, we try and support like-minded projects and other municipalities. What we're trying to do is really just be an inspiration. [00:11:30] If all our contribution has been, is to get Kerns and mentioned in the newspaper a few dozen times, like good enough because it's really people starting to see that there is a demand. That's what we're trying to, people are reaching out to you from other areas of the country. Yeah. And we, you know, we've had a lot of interest from other chefs.
Speaker 4:It's been fun to see passively folks change their buying. One thing we've noticed is that there is aquaponic produce in a lot more restaurants in the bay area than there were a few years ago. [00:12:00] So again, you know, just trying to, trying to break down the norms that exist within our food system and really kind of shake things up for people. Um, so that it doesn't feel weird and it doesn't feel foreign and the idea of eating, you know, let us grown from fish poop, you know, isn't something that's gross. It's something that's beautiful and delicious. And I want to talk about some of the methods that you are using through donations to support farmers. Yeah, so we have our compost drive. We basically take a percentage of restaurant revenue [00:12:30] and divert it into fund to basically buy large amounts of compost to then apply to ranch land.
Speaker 4:You know, the application of compost definitely kind of kick-starts the soil biology, um, allows for greater sequestration year after year after year. So it's kind of the gift that keeps on giving. It also helps with water retention. So it's great, you know, for periods of drought, the big obstacle that was cost, you know, the thing holding up most of these farmers is that they just simply can't afford it. So what we wanted to do that surprises me. Like [00:13:00] I didn't know farmers didn't use compost already. Oh yeah. You know, there are, there are definitely farmers who do, but you know, it's, it's something where if you don't have the means or if you don't have like the staffing for someone to apply it, or if you don't have the infrastructure, if you, you know, it's just, you know, it's containable it's very, very costly. So we tried to do is just take the cost out of it.
Speaker 4:We wanted the farmers to focus on farming, not on their checkbook. So what do you do? [00:13:30] So, uh, in addition to what we take from the restaurant revenue, uh, we'll also give people the ability to donate themselves. So you can go online to perennial farming.org and donate a cubic yard of compost to a farmer. What we'll basically do is aggregate that until we have say 200, 400 cubic yards worth of material purchased and then we'll go and do a onetime application with several truck loads. That's such a gift to farmers. How would they ever say no to that? Not only do you provide the compost, but you [00:14:00] apply it exactly certain, so to take cost out of the equation for them. Um, so it's just about, hey, do you want better yields and do you want to help the planet? Oh, well I can do this.
Speaker 4:They can't afford. Exactly. There's not, there's not a malicious intent. Um, it's just, you know, that for a lot of people they are consumed by the fear of losing their farm. Um, so if we can, we're not trying to shame farmers in a, changing their practices. We're all about the carrot and the stick. You know, we're really [00:14:30] just trying to lure people in to changing their production habits by showing them, hey, there's, there's demand over here. You know, there's money to be made in being more sustainable. There's money to be made in something that's more environmentally friendly and more equitable and doesn't have all these negative externalities associated with, you seem to know a lot about farming your background where you farmer. So, no, I didn't really growing up, I hadn't really dreamed of being a farmer. I grew up here in the bay area, a Lafayette [00:15:00] and uh, you know, I'd always been kind of a biology nerd, loved plants and animals, but more, it's just kind of a curiosity.
Speaker 4:When I got to UC Santa Cruz, I had originally been a plant physiologist and was studying albino redwoods. Um, you know, which was just so interesting and crazy. Yeah, most people don't, but it was something where, you know, I felt that I wasn't getting to do enough dynamic problem solving. Like I re, you know, I'm one of those people where I always want a new challenge. I always want to be working [00:15:30] to get better and better and better. When I started taking classes on the farm, I just saw this immense opportunity where, you know, you've got the most complex problem solving there is taking place every day. You know, people don't like, you don't realize it until you start your own garden. Oh yeah. You don't realize that every farmer is also an ecologist that, you know, they're managing ecosystems, not just their farm. It's not just about the yield, it's about every [00:16:00] plant and animal that is in their purview because all of it's gonna have an effect, either positive or negative.
Speaker 4:So it's, hey, how can we work with the natural world rather than against it? And that's been taken away by them. It had a big, yeah. Agribusiness and yeah. So I started working on farms when I was at Santa Cruz after graduation. Went on a, started managing a homestead up in the mountains. We're really, you know, we were breeding fish doing aquaponics, raising goats and chickens and Guinea fowl, you know, [00:16:30] all sorts of stuff. Um, and that's where I really kind of solidified my love of farming. After that, I came up here to the bay area. How long did you do that homestead? Oh, I was up there for a little under two years and then came up to the bay area. Did the urban outta my fellowship. Actually built the aquaponic system over there during my fellowship, was hired on to staff there. And they do here in Brooklyn.
Speaker 4:So Urban Hodamont is a great organization. We're a Jewish community farm over at sixth and Harrison Street. We have a ton of different programs. Right now we're [00:17:00] running at summer camp. Uh, we do school field trips. We have a residential fellowship program for folks. 21 to 31. Uh, we're basically, you come, you, you're running the farm every day. You're ready, you're running our farm. Whether that's the goats, the chickens, making sure the drip irrigation hasn't gotten, you know, busted overnight. The pest management, everything. You're also getting, you know, mindfulness training, all sorts of stuff. Uh, social action. And what do you do with all of your food? So at the end of the day, or rather each week [00:17:30] we run a farm stand where basically those who identify as in need can come get the produce from the farm. Cause you know, we, it's free. Yeah. You know, when you, when you deal with most food donations, you know, it's packaged products, it's stuff that may not be the healthiest because it is stuff that has to be shelf stable for a really long time.
Speaker 4:So we wanted to give people the ability to get fresh produce from here in Berkeley. Everyone deserves deserves that. So we don't have cows yet. How did you get involved [00:18:00] in the perennial farming initiative? It was co founded by a couple of chefs in San Francisco. How did they find out about you? My cofounders are Anthony Meehan and Karen Liebowitz husband and wife duo. Xtrordinair. They found admission Chinese food or shouldn't bowling club Commonwealth. Um, you know, a ton of great restaurants and have also been, you know, Karen's been a very prolific food writer and really instrumental in the, in the San Francisco area. You know, the perennial is their baby or rather Aviva is their baby. And when they [00:18:30] had, you know, when they had a child to think about, they really started having those kind of Meta thoughts about like, what am I, what am I doing to make the world better?
Speaker 4:You know, how, how can we use restaurants to make the world a better place for our children. Um, and that's really what kind of inspired them to make a restaurant dedicated to fighting climate change. They had mapped out everything from the build out of the restaurant using all locally sourced materials, ones that had a lower carbon footprint, ones that would use less, you [00:19:00] know, using appliances that would use less electricity, less water mapping out the workflow of the restaurant. So it's even, you know, requiring less refrigeration, all sorts of stuff. But then they really wanted to take it to that next level and start to address sourcing of ingredients. That's when they, they approached me. I was working at a farm down in Watsonville. Um, we were commercial food service, but we also did, you know, classes for folks to come down and learn about us.
Speaker 4:And, and you were also running urban and I was also running urban auto ma at the time or [00:19:30] running the aquaponics program at urban out of Ma. And um, you know, so they, they really saw this opportunity of, hey, we've, we're into aquaponics. We love this idea of using aquaponics as a way to divert food waste, you know, and use it as a resource to make something, you know, amazing and delicious that goes back to the restaurant. So then they invited you in and that's when this initiative actually, yeah, no. So we actually, you know, early on it was just the, just the perennial. Um, [00:20:00] so it was the restaurant came first and then we started to see just how big the need was. Uh, did you see that? Because when we started we thought it was going to be something that, you know, we were going to be struggling to get people to see the light as it were and we were just overwhelmed.
Speaker 4:But the, the support that we got, you know, the interest, you know, we really see ourselves as kind of being very close to that inflection point in the food system. So what we're just trying to do right now is kinda give that [00:20:30] soapbox to sustainable producers and you know, consumers to say, hey, this is what we want. This is what I've got and how can we help each other? And how did you go about funding this initiative initially? Yeah, so initially the perennial ran a Kickstarter that allowed us to get the farm up and running as well as our composting program. All of that. We also do take direct donation, perennial farming.org you can donate today. So you donate, but you get something in return. You get many different things. Many choices. [00:21:00] Exactly. So we, you know, for us, uh, we have our adoptive sturgeon program where you'll get some updates and pictures and everything like that.
Speaker 4:You can come by the farm, actually meet your sturgeon, you have the full tour. We also have a, we have all sorts of events that we run. So either a barbecue or a tree planting where you can come help out for the day, eat a fantastic meal, be in, you know, gorgeous scenery and really feel like you've accomplished something at the end of the day. I also read that if you give a certain amount of money, you can get meat [00:21:30] from Stempel farm. Oh yeah. From Stemple creek. Yeah. So, you know, they're one of our big partners on the carbon ranching side of things. So you know, for us it's like, hey, it's like a win-win because for us it's, if you give a donation and you know, for us we're good, you know, you're getting some meat. But then it's also gonna change your consumption habit cause you see how fantastic their product is.
Speaker 4:You know, for a lot of people it's, it's this eyeopening experience trying like a grass fed grass finished burger or steak or anything like that. You know. So really it's, it's trying to get it out there [00:22:00] as much as possible for folks. So are you, the three of you are all working in this. What are you looking to in the future? Are there any new plans or new initiatives that you are involved in? Yeah, so the big thing that we're working on right now is actually a healthy soil guide for chefs. And basically what that is, is it's akin to the Monterey Seafood Watch list. You know the Monterey Bay Seafood Watch list where you can look at the list and you can see if you should be eating orange roughy or you shouldn't be eating orange [00:22:30] roughy. We wanted to make something so people could look, see the information about a soil organic matter, which is basically the, the strongest correlation to carbon secret castration we have and basically be able to compare one farm to another to the regional average.
Speaker 4:We also kind of give folks the ability to see other practices. We re, we focus on soil, organic matter, but we also give the ability to mark if you say they're doing polyculture, uh, if they're also doing grazing, um, if they have [00:23:00] perennial agriculture and beneficial hedge rows, if they're no till all sorts of stuff. Are the groups, the farms that you're going out to to come onto this guide, are you meeting any resistance at all or are they all like, oh, this is a great idea? No, a lot of them definitely see it as a, as a great idea. It, you know, initially we've worked with a lot of our partners that we've been working through with the perennial. So you know, it's, it's a bit of, yeah, it's breaching competitive structure. So, so I think, you know, for most producers [00:23:30] they see more information about their product as a good thing because it gives them that, you know, it gives the outstanding actors in the industry more stuff to market on.
Speaker 4:You know, there's, there's things that, you know, don't directly correlate into a financial gain, but marketing can kind of help solve a lot of that. So being able to say, hey, you know what, I'm producing 200 head of cattle less than I previously was, but I'm also now sequestering 20 times the amount of carbon in the soil or [00:24:00] this or that or that. You know, we wanted to, to really provide options for farmers, you know, cause there's no, there's no one silver bullet. So for us, you know, it's about having this really diverse toolbox so that producers can plug in on a variety of levels. We don't need a full commitment. We don't need you to totally change your production model, but if we can get you to do something that lowers your emissions by 3% annually, like absolutely, we'll take it and this guy is going to be available too.
Speaker 4:So we should, the guides should be available to consumers [00:24:30] and chefs this coming year. Um, you can kinda check out our prototype online@perennialfarming.org if, uh, also if you're a farmer and want to, uh, get involved and get your soil tested, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. And you also talk about all the different projects, the aquaponics, regenerative wheat and carbon farming. So, yeah, and we also, we post our events on there. So if you want to, uh, the next time we do say a tree planting or a dinner party, anything like that, you can find out about it there. What do you think your biggest accomplishment [00:25:00] has been at the perennial farming initiative? I think our biggest accomplishments so far is kind of just changing the conversation. You know, changing the tone of the conversation, changing who thinks they can make change. Like, we, you know, every, you know, it's so cliche, but the just like, oh, you can make a difference.
Speaker 4:Everyone, we need every, you know, but what we're trying to show is really, it is, it's, it's easier and more delicious. It's something that you'll, you will be rewarded [00:25:30] in the long run because everyone eats because everyone eats and everyone likes good food. I don't know anyone who doesn't like good food, you know, if you have the option of eating out of your own backyard, do it. You know, it's a, it's, you know, it's not, we, we oftentimes get kind of wrapped up in the, uh, the financial side of grow, like having a garden in your backyard too. But there's, there's this deeply psychological side of it. You know, I would say to two raised beds, [00:26:00] probably work out to a couple of Xanax, but, you know, but you know, it's, it's, you know, it's free therapy. You know, it's, it's work, it getting your hands dirty, being in nature.
Speaker 4:Um, you know, it can be tough here in the city. Um, but hey, we're in California. We can grow anything on them. All year, very often, especially here in Berkeley when we're talking about environmentalism and when we're talking about climate change and where we're talking about creating, creating change in our system, we can take on [00:26:30] an attitude of doom and gloom and anger. And I think one of the things that I took away from my education at Santa Cruz that has been immensely helpful in my professional career and just my thinking about the environment is really you've got to hit people with optimism. You've got to show people that there's a way out, that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. If we're only telling people how bad their decisions are and we're not, we're not making any friends. [00:27:00] So rather than lead with, hey, shame on you don't do that.
Speaker 4:We need to extend the olive branch. We need to be working with people that we disagree with and showing them that there are low hanging fruit abounding. You know, for a lot of folks, they're not making these decisions because they want to support the environment or they want to do this. It's, you know, a cold, hard economic decision for a lot of sustainability practices. It's just better for the pocketbook. For us. It's not about, or for me personally, [00:27:30] it's about hitting people where they're at. If you want to talk about a conservation biology and about, you know, saving species and forestalling deforestation, I'm happy to do that and would love to, I could talk your ear off, but if you also just want to talk about how these are sound financial decisions that are going to, you know, increase yield, decrease labor costs, decreased fertilizer costs and things like that as water decrease water use.
Speaker 4:Also happy to just [00:28:00] talk about it from a financial point of view. If you studied biology in college, people need to start thinking about going into farming. Oh yeah. People need to be going. Young people need to be going into farming. Um, and I, you know, uh, talking to all you graduate students out there, you know, if you don't know what you want to be doing right now, think about farming it. It is, you know, problem solving. It's complex, it's complex. Um, it's challenging. You're always doing with new things and there is a need for you. You know, there are not [00:28:30] enough biologists out in the field. Um, there aren't enough young people out in the field. However, you can get involved, you know, have a garden in your yard, visit farms, you know, start shopping at the farmer's market. Whatever you can do. Um, just start the ball rolling. You know, it's not going to be an all at once. Systems change. It's going to be real slow, but it starts with, you know, single footsteps. Yeah. Tiny things. Thank you for being on the program. Nathan, thank you so [00:29:00] much for having me.
Speaker 1:That was Nathan Kaufman, the executive director of the perennial farming initiative. He's also the director of living systems at the perennial restaurant in San Francisco, as well as the aquaponics program at urban automa and educational farm and community center [00:29:30] right here in Berkeley. You've been listening to method to the madness of weekly public affairs on k
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