Niklas Lollo interviews Hawaii Wildfire Management Organization Community Outreach Coordinator Pablo Beimler, who works with government agencies, nongovernment organizations, and communities on collaborative wildfire protection efforts across the Hawaiian Islands. HWMO's prevention, preparedness, and mitigation efforts are making a difference to bring all stakeholders to the table with the common goal of reducing the growing wildfire hazards statewide.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX, Berkeley Showcasing Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Nicholas Thalo. And this week we are visited by Pablo Byler, the community outreach coordinator with the Hawaii wildfire management organization. Tell us about the work his organization is doing to combat wildfires in Hawaii and landscape more commonly thought of as a tropical paradise than [00:00:30] one that shares the same afflictions as California drought and wildfire. Hey, Pablo, welcome to the show. Hey Nick. Thanks for having me. Uh, it's pretty much a paradox like Hawaii, we think of this place as a tropical paradise, yet it has a large proportion of wildfires. Why is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's indeed true. There's a misconception that, you know, Hawaii is, like you said, tropical wet all year round. Um, but in the, in reality, [00:01:00] um, every island in Hawaii has a leeward and windward side. And on those leeward sides, you get these really dry conditions. You get some areas that actually are drier. Um, they get less rainfall than Tucson, Arizona. Um, and we actually have this wide range of, um, different climate zones within even these leeward areas and on the windward sides. Um, so for one we have a very diverse landscape, so you'll see landscapes that you have, um, here on the mainland that, um, are mirrored [00:01:30] back on the islands and to go along with that. We also have this year long growing season for plants to thrive. Um, even on the dryer, dryer sides. And unfortunately the plants that do grow on those dryers sides are mostly invasive fire prone, um, plants.
Speaker 2:And what we've seen is this kind of increase in the amount of wildfires all across the state really. And even in the Western Pacific too, um, where we're getting, you know, [00:02:00] more, more wildfires, partially because of the types of vegetation that are there, but also because we're having an influx in population and from a lot of the data that we've been working through, we've basically been able to identify it that, um, indeed wildfires are correlated to people. About 99% of our ignitions are actually started by people. So you have the fuels, you have the ignitions, and of course we have plenty of wind that blows through our islands. So [00:02:30] when you have those three, they make up the fire triangle. And that's why we're getting all these wildfires.
Speaker 1:And you said that wildfire is an introduced concept to the ecology of Hawaii. Um, can you speak more about that?
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. So there's a lot of debate in terms of how much fire was used during the, um, kind of pre pre-contact era. Um, native Hawaiian. There are records of native Hawaiians using fire to help and native grasses [00:03:00] such as Pili Grass, um, which is a very important cultural, um, uh, grass for the native Hawaiians. Um, and then you have natural ignitions from lightning strikes. But of course we're, you know, pretty unique being out there with an active lava, an active lava source, um, constantly spewing out from, um, currently the big island. And so we've, you know, seen fires that have sprouted from lava ignitions, but in general, fire was not really part of the, [00:03:30] the natural ecology and most of the islands. And it's more of a recent, over the past hundred years or so where we've really seen a major uptick in the amount of wildfires and the sheer size and fires.
Speaker 2:Um, you go back to 19 of 1901 and there was a fire that burned 30,000 acres on the Hamakua coast, which is a pretty wet area on the big island. That kind of sets a precedent. It shows that areas that are wet could actually burn too if [00:04:00] given the right conditions. You know, during the drought period when all of this vegetation that has been so lashed and growing for so many years, all of a sudden it becomes dry, becomes a burnable. Um, all you need is one spark and then you have a wildfire. So, um, kind of going back to that question, um, a lot of our native ecology is not used to wildfires. A lot of the native plants there are not adapted to fire. And now that it's part of the current ecosystem, um, unfortunately the native plants can't keep up with all the other plants [00:04:30] that have been.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, a lot of the invasive fire prone plants that have come onto the islands, um, basically thrive. They reproduce after wildfire. And so the native plants really have no chance to come back in competition with, um, with the new plants that are on our islands. And then you start seeing, um, a loss in our native forest ecology, which then damages our watersheds and our ability to keep water on our lands. It ends up, you'll have days where [00:05:00] after a wildfire or even months after a wildfire where, um, we'll get a heavy rainfall event, which is pretty typical in Hawaii. Um, and it'll wash a lot of that top soil that's not being held down by what formerly was a forest. It goes out into the ocean and then pollutes our coral reefs, which then of course has other implications with our coastal resource management and impacts the fisheries and impacts the local fishermen and impacts to our tourism.
Speaker 2:So there's this whole [00:05:30] wide, wide range of impacts that can happen from, from this introduced wildfire system that we have. And so it's an introduced system. How did you first, or how did Hawaii first start managing, um, fire? It's a very good question. It's a, um, again, wildfire management. It's a pretty new concept relative to, um, you know, a lot of other places in the world. And especially in the u s where, you know, [00:06:00] over a century ago, wildfire suppression only was really the, the main focus on the mainland. And that's kind of what we're seeing now with these major Yosemite fires and, um, these uncontrollable fires that are not really natural parts of the mainland ecosystems. Um, but it was that mentality of constantly suppression and keeping, keeping all that growth, not keeping that growth at bay basically, and having this massive amounts of burnable timber and plants and shrubs that usually would burn [00:06:30] 20, 30 year intervals.
Speaker 2:And so some of that kind of mentality had carried out to, um, to the Hawaiian islands. So, you know, suppression only tactics not focusing on the prevention side, not focusing on pre fire management. So what you do to change the landscape in order to reduce the fire threat around an area. And, and a lot of it actually, um, there, there's a lot of, um, there were [00:07:00] a few guys who were in the business that were very forethinking and they thought, okay, how do we address this issue? We're not getting any funding to do anything outside of fire suppression. What do we do? And, um, over a decade ago, back in before 2000 when our organization formed a group of, um, fire chiefs and heads of the land, the land management agencies, they got together to f to think how are we going to address this issue? And they formed [00:07:30] this group called North Kona Fire and fuels group.
Speaker 2:And it was really just the way to focus just in this specific area in North Kona on the big island. Um, the dry part of the, yes, exactly. So North Dakota and south Kohala is basically the hotbed, no pun intended, too many fire puns in this world. Um, but, uh, we, you know, we had, um, a growing wildfire problem in these areas and these guys were wondering what, what can we do to actually [00:08:00] make it so that we're not spending so much money, so much effort and risking our firefighters lives to fight these major fires that are starting to happen. And they decided to create that group, the North Kona Fire and fuels group, which then emerged into a formal organization, West Hawaii wildfire management organization just to focus on that area. But to create a nonprofit that would actually help start bringing funds in that will, um, you know, federal funds that can actually help [00:08:30] implement, um, you know, on the ground, pre fire management, outreach and education and even post-fire rehabilitation of our lands.
Speaker 1:So you were saying earlier that, um, you weren't receiving federal, Hawai'i wasn't receiving federal funds to subdue anything besides fire suppression. Why was this organization able to receive federal funds now for doing these other steps in the fire
Speaker 2:management system? Yeah, again, a lot of it ties into that [00:09:00] nonprofit, um, status. Having a nonprofit entity that can actually spend time grant writing and um, putting out proposals to various federal agencies and federal, federal grant programs to start bringing funding to Hawaii cause we really weren't getting any federal funding for anything outside of that. And did it also mark like a shift in the federal government's priorities? Definitely. Where people beginning to understand fire ecology better. Yes. A it partially is that [00:09:30] again, you know, you have these guys like Wayne cheering for one, he's this magician and really helped start this wildfire management program for the division of Forestry, the state division of Forestry and Wildlife, um, agency in a way and you know, really, really started to institutionalize wildfire management as part of, as part of their scope of work. And you know, people like that have really pushed the envelope in terms of getting Hawaii to be more forward thinking in terms of fire [00:10:00] suppression.
Speaker 2:And then we have, um, like a lot of our grant funding actually has been coming from the US forest service. They have a grant program called the wild land urban interface, um, competitive grant program. And they'll assist, um, organizations like ours to, to implement projects that are more focused on pre fire management and outreach education and that sort of scope of work. What does community outreach look like? You know, depending on the grant, my, my project plan will change [00:10:30] accordingly. But the way it's changed has been very innovative. I give a lot of credit to our executive director Elizabeth Pickett and our board of directors who have really, and technical advisors who have really helped reshape how, how we focus on outreach and education. So originally it was, you know, we started by really just getting awareness out there because again, you know, a lot of travelers who come there don't know that there's wildfire issues and they might park their car and drive grass and then you have a sudden fire.
Speaker 2:Um, [00:11:00] and then there's that awareness level from people who live there too, whether it's the actual awareness that there are fires in the area or an awareness that they can actually do something to protect themselves. Um, so that's kind of where we started. And over the years we've really grown to start, um, start actually empowering communities to actually act, act within themselves, act within the group to implement their own projects, start their own community groups, really, you know, [00:11:30] kind of like a neighborhood watch program, but bonusing on wildfires and wildfire projects. So whether that means, you know, having a chipper day where we contract the chipper out for for a two day period and people can help each other out, clear their yards of any flammable debris. And then we're, we're in this mode right now where we're working with communities statewide to help them become firewise communities, which is a natural national program through the National Fire Protection Association.
Speaker 2:And it's a way to kind of validate [00:12:00] these efforts and also opens up funding opportunities for them as well. And so these are communities in the, like Peri urban or rural, um, areas, um, that included like a lot of ranchers. Um, what does that lifestyle look like? Or yeah, these look like. So every community we work with is quite different. And, um, you know, that's part of what makes my job really special and what I really enjoy about it is to get to meet really every type of person that [00:12:30] lives in the Hawaiian islands. And you get a whole range, you know, you get people who live, who come there to retire, right? And I'm starting to do life in Hawaii. Some people go out there to have a self sustaining life. Um, and then your of course have native populations there too. You have a very high pop, um, percentage of native Hawaiians that live still on the Hawaiian islands.
Speaker 2:And, um, and the, you know, there's a lot of, um, historical kind of precedent for how these communities emerged and how each [00:13:00] one interacts. Um, but you know, our organization itself where, you know, we're nonpartisan, we're, you know, we work with anyone, literally anyone who has a wildfire problem, whether you're homeless, whether you have a home, whether you have $1 million home, you know, our whole goal is to protect your homes and communities from burning. And that also goes along with your natural landscapes. So that means, you know, if you're a rancher and you have, um, a a hundred thousand acres that you need to upkeep and, you know, you're getting fires that are burning constantly, [00:13:30] how can we help you use more strategic grazing practices that will actually manage the fuels around you? Um, the other thing we really stress is you don't have to go it alone as a community.
Speaker 2:And so that's, that's the next step we're taking as an organization is how do we innovate new approaches to get not just the community involved, but every single stakeholder involved. And that's a practice that's being, and what that really means, again, is you need to have the politicians on board. You need to have planners [00:14:00] need to have educators and designers and every part of society involved in the process in order to actually have effective, meaningful project implementation that'll protect people from public safety hazards. And you've spoken a bit about, um, I mean, including all these stakeholders on one of those, but obviously be scientists, um, fire ecologist. Um, but you've spoken a little bit about how that's been a tricky, um, bridge to, uh, create, [00:14:30] um, say more. Sure. Um, so nationally it's uh, um, you know, nationally you have this divide between the research world, the academic world and people who are out on the ground.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, quote unquote managers, right? Land managers, you know, it's neither is wrong or right. You know, there, um, there's just this disconnect in the communication between the two, the research. Um, [00:15:00] you know, the academic side is not getting down to the management level for various reasons and that's even more amplified on the islands because there are other things like race and ethnicity that also play a part in that. But the main thing is, you know, you're, um, a lot of the research that's happening won't necessarily tie into what the managers actually need on the ground. And so what our organization did, um, working with the US Forest Service in Hawaii, the IPOC office there and University of Hawaii [00:15:30] and then Hawaii wildfire management organization and kind of as a three legged stool to help create this program that will bridge the gap between science and management in the wildfire world.
Speaker 2:And so in Hawaii, a lot of that means, you know, the conservation world, how do we get conservation minded people to create research that will have applications for fire managers or ranchers who need to know how they can create a fuel break that I actually protect their, their ranch lands. And it's of course the challenge. It's a very unique [00:16:00] opportunity and it's a way that the wildfire world can help demonstrate a process that other gaps between research and management, whether that's, you know, coastal restoration or you know, you can even take it into urban designed to, or there's a lot of applications and, um, and it's all through this program called the Pacific Fire Exchange, which is, has been taken off lately and there's been a lot of great, um, products that have been coming [00:16:30] out to help start getting that information from that, you know, academic world into the hands of land managers.
Speaker 2:And then, um, it's not just the Pacific. We have, it's all part of this consortium called the, um, joint fire science program, which, um, you know, the, the entire nation is covered by various different consortia that are not based on the state's, um, boundaries, but actually based on the ecological boundaries of each, um, eco [00:17:00] biological areas across the state. Um, it's been highly successful. It's been really great to see nationwide, um, coming together of people in these various worlds to actually start sharing information. And so how did you come to the wildfire management scene? It was very serendipitous. It was, um, so I went to school at UC Berkeley, graduated back in 2012. The fire component actually came [00:17:30] really randomly. I didn't have enough coursework. Well, I couldn't get into a bunch of courses. I was kind of, I'm always behind because I was at spring admit, so it was always hard for me to get into certain courses and there was one semester where I just could not get into, um, the courses I needed.
Speaker 2:So I decided, well, there's this fire ecology course. It sounds really interesting. It's already four weeks in, but I'm going to take it anyway. And I ended up taking the course under the wing of, um, Kevin Crosno [00:18:00] who was a, um, working on his doctorate at the time. And he really helped kind of catch me up with the class and I really started getting involved in the work he was doing. And this was all under Scott Stevens fiery college course. And then sure enough, the next semester I worked in the fire lab looking at tree ring tree rings for four hours straight. And um, you know, seeing what year as fires happened during certain years cause you can actually use tree rings to date fires going [00:18:30] back hundreds of years. Um, and again, that was another eye opening experience and I just started learning more and more about fire.
Speaker 2:And then I ended up graduating and working for cal fire as a forestry assistant and I would actually go out with a team of three other people out in Lake Tahoe and assess different homes, um, for their defensible space measures to see how basically burnable their home landscape is. And under California regulations if you're in certain [00:19:00] areas that are um, your wildfire pro and you actually have to have defensible space. So we went around and kind of, um, mostly educated, uh, committee members about what they can do to, to fix some of their problems that we assessed. And that then kind of led me out into the wildfire world out in Hawaii. And the rest is history
Speaker 1:in Lake Tahoe. How, where the existing practices of creating defensible space?
Speaker 2:So one of [00:19:30] the major differences is again, the types of vegetation that you have, um, in Tahoe versus in Hawaii. So until her, you have conifer forests that are part of the native ecosystem and um, you know, you get a lot of leaf litter, um, a lot of pine pine needles that'll build up near homes or on gutters. So people will actually, um, you know, in order to have the principal space, you want to make sure a lot of that litter is cleared around your home. We generally say, um, you need to have at least 30 feet of spacing, [00:20:00] the first 30 feet around your home. Basically, you want to do more intensive, um, management of your landscape to prevent fires from spreading. Right, right to the edge of your home and just keep going out from there. But you really start close to the home. What can you focus on your home structure itself to prevent embers from flying? And
Speaker 1:what did you see? Were a lot of people practicing this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, it was spotty and it depended on the communities. Um, you know, you could go to some communities and you would see that, [00:20:30] you know, almost everyone had leaf litter on their improves, which is a major threat because the roof is actually going to be your most vulnerable part of your home during a fire. And I think that then ties into the culture of it. So if you're in a community that has a culture of that, you don't see other people taking steps and measures to prevent wildfires from, um, you know, um, burning your home, um, it kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So that's then something [00:21:00] that we take into mind when, where you work with communities. We're trying to build culture shifts rather than just programs or, um, you know, small projects in there. We really are trying to shift communities to take proactive action versus reactive comprehensive projects, not incomplete projects.
Speaker 2:Um, and really just kind of get to this point where fire is always on the mind, whether that's in Tahoe, whether that's in Hawaii, we're living with fire in these wildland urban interfaces, [00:21:30] but it's not like a fear based thing. It's more of like, right. Risk Management, right? You have to have a little fear because you know, it is, it is a fear, you know, to have your home burn. No one wants to see their home burn, no one wants to see their community burn your neighborhood, your businesses. Right. So wildfire is unique in that sense. Um, in that it's very apolitical. Everyone can agree on, you know, not wanting to see your community burn down. And it really helps create this lead in into other projects that the community wants to do. So we've [00:22:00] seen communities who take, you know, they'll take the wildfire actions that they need to take and they start having community bonding and then they actually start working on other projects that they might not necessarily have been able to do before because there might've been political challenges or social challenges within the group.
Speaker 1:You also grew up in La and you were educated in Berkeley, if not, you're kind of as a city boy. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and you're going and working with largely rural communities [00:22:30] or more on the rural edge, um, in America as we've seen, there's a rural urban divide. Um, how has that been for one educating you on, um, that divide and also how have you tried to bridge that? Hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2:It's a very good question. I haven't done a lot of reflection in that, so this'll give me a chance to kind of explore my mind and, and my experiences, but has definitely been an exciting challenge for me to, [00:23:00] um, you know, kind of deconstruct my urban, my urban mind really, and start thinking about how rural landscapes work and how people work with the landscape and in various ways to achieve, you know, multiple goals in general. I mean, I always grew up around nature. I always, um, you know, my parents always tried to expose me to the natural world, but I never thought it would actually be a career of mine. And I never thought that I would actually be living in a tiny town, you know, of a couple of thousand people [00:23:30] versus a few million people. Um, so that has been a challenge in itself, but I really have noticed that I thrive more in those environments and I really enjoy, um, human interactions.
Speaker 2:I really enjoy working with people. Living in rural areas really gives you that chance to develop relationships that you might not normally have in certain urban settings where it might be a little more isolated. Even though there's more people. It's kind of that weird paradox in the rural areas. You see [00:24:00] pretty much everyone right every day, whether they're at the store or just an informal or informal settings. But, um, you have to really be careful about your interactions to you. Um, you have to be a little more careful about what you say or what you align with. Um, still be true to yourself, but also understand that your actions will have impacts on how other people react to it or perceive certain issues. So again, with wildfire, you know, we're always being careful about how we introduce, [00:24:30] um, wildfire outreach to communities because what we might say to one community about not using this material might actually be a problem for communities that can't afford to use certain materials to build their homes.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's, it's been a great challenge and I really have appreciated working with Hawaii wildfire management organization to, to learn how I can better interact in, in that rural landscape. And I think you talked about this a little bit, but [00:25:00] it's also like solving the problem of scientists or policymakers, what not coming from the urban areas and saying, here's what you need to do. But it sounds like you're maybe trying to have something more collaborative where both sides can learn from one another. Right? That is a huge part of our organization. Um, we don't do any project unless we have buy-in from not just agencies, not just from the academic side. There needs to be buying on [00:25:30] the community side too. And we've built in a process within our organization to actually incorporate all of that within our governing bodies. So we actually have a technical advisory panel that will, um, that are, you know, fire chiefs and ranchers and all these experts all across the state who can help guide our vision towards certain projects and help kind of give, um, agency basically to a lot of our, um, the project ideas.
Speaker 2:But it also needs to have support from [00:26:00] community members, from um, landowners down on the, on the ground level. Um, and when we have that buy in from all sides, we have really seen our projects take off because when you have that, that sort of buying, you have projects that are effective, efficient, they are meaningful, grounded. And so that's where the word collaboration really is an important part of our organization. And we've really tried to own that word. You can't, you can't succeed in this modern, [00:26:30] ingrained world if you don't have collaboration on all parts. And we hope that's a message that carries out to not just everyone else in the wildfire world, but really the rest of the world. And we need more to solve our, our, um, wicked problems.
Speaker 1:Hmm. Have talked a little bit about like receiving federal funding. Um, and I don't know how much your organization sort of relies on that. And is the funding for fire prevention and management, um, [00:27:00] a political or do you expect anything to change with a, um, new administration
Speaker 2:in general? Again, wildfire is a little more of an a political issue. You get, um, you know, even in the u s you'll get a lot of bills that get signed with both parties supporting it. Um, when we have political change or new political atmospheres, of course there's always concern. Um, no matter what side, um, takes power. You, you don't know wildfires [00:27:30] not always up first thing that you hear during a campaign. Right? Or we didn't hear it at all during the election season. So, um, you know, we don't know what'll happen, but climate change or climate change, which is actually an important part of the equation for us to and our widely, um, so that's a, that's a concern. Certainly if climate change is not being addressed, um, in the new administration, um, that might close the door for a lot of other funding options. Um, you know, climate change has big impacts on the Hawaiian islands.
Speaker 2:You can't ignore it. It's happening [00:28:00] all around. Um, whether you believe it's human caused or not, it's happening on the Hawaiian islands. And so we really need to start addressing it because it has major impacts on our, our wildfire behavior that we've been seeing. We're getting more in longer drought periods, heavier, you know, bigger storms. We've had record, um, storms hit our islands the past few years, which means more rainfall, more growth. And then you have these long drought areas, child periods that um, basically exponentially create a bigger [00:28:30] wildfire threat. So if the funding isn't matching that, then we're going to have some real serious issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think I saw on the news today a, there was a fire in Oahu.
Speaker 2:Yeah, correct. There was one western Walker and actually have some friends that live in the valley that was burning this last night and this morning. And um, it was a harrowing experience for them. Um, cause especially interesting because we just did outreach at the, the school [inaudible] um, academy that's um, right in that valley where the fire [00:29:00] was, um, was burning. And they actually closed the school today because the smoke was this right turn tense for the kids to be around. And so one of my friends, um, Joe actually gave me a call and asked, you know, what do I do? What do I do during, you know, um, when, when this is happening, what am I supposed to do around the home, um, to start preparing if I need to evacuate. That's the kind of mindset where you want to see, um, from people before the fire, before the fire happens, right. Not when the fire is actually happening.
Speaker 1:[00:29:30] So, um, do you have a website or any, any way people can reach you if they have any additional questions or interests?
Speaker 2:Yes, so we do have a website. It's Hawaii wildfire.org and it's all spelled out who I, wildfire.org and um, we have an email address that you can reach us at two, it's Admin administrations or ADM, I n@hawaiiwildfire.org and you can connect with us. Doesn't matter if you don't live in Hawaii, if you're just interested in the work we do or you want to contribute [00:30:00] somehow. We're also a nonprofit so we always are welcome to donations to help with our work, to protect our communities, lands in our waters. It's also a great tool for people in Hawaii who are looking for resources. We have a whole plethora of resources out there to help you, um, take action around your own home with your own family and also with the rest of your community. Well, Pablo, thank you so much for coming in and telling us about wildfire management. Thank you. It's so good to be back in [00:30:30] Berkeley. Hello. Huh?
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