Third year Yale Law students, Scout Katovich, Allison Frankel and Hillary Vedvig, discuss their report Forced into Breaking the Law: The Criminalization of Homelessness in Connecticut, and their continuing research in L.A., San Francisco & Seattle.
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Your listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keefer and today I'll be talking with the authors of a new study called forced into breaking the law, the criminalization of homelessness. Okay, I'm sitting here in the studio with students from Yale law school, Alison Frankel from Marvel, Massachusetts,
Speaker 2:[00:00:30] scout cabbage from California and Hillary ved Vig from Wisconsin. And you are all third year students at Yale. And you're currently at the Allard K Lowenstein, international human rights clinic where you just published a report about the criminalization of homelessness. I want to get into the results of your findings, but first I want to ask you to define what is the criminalization of homelessness? So the criminalization of homelessness is laws and policies that [00:01:00] essentially make living in homelessness a crime. So things like laws prohibiting someone from sleeping on a park bench when there's no shelter space for them to sleep in, laws prohibiting loitering when there's no place else for people to be during the day. Both the ways in which these result in citations costing people money in the form of fines and arrests and the general practice of police officers ordering people to move along to get out of the way such that their everyday experience [00:01:30] becomes criminalized.
Speaker 2:I'm curious how you got started with this project. I know you're in this international human rights clinic, but how'd you come up with the idea and what were your goals originally? So the clinic partners with organizations on a global scale, because it is an international human rights clinic, and together with these partner organizations, the clinic comes up with ideas of research projects generally that intersect with international human rights law that the clinic could add value to. So [00:02:00] we partnered with a man out of center church in Hartford, Connecticut, who is a social worker and had been working on the ground with the homeless population in Hartford for about a decade. And what he had seen was that again and again, the criminalization of homelessness and these ordinances that prohibit loitering, panhandling, sleeping on benches, sitting on the sidewalk were a huge obstacle to people living in homelessness, getting on their feet, getting someplace to stay [00:02:30] permanently, and it created a vicious cycle of criminalization, fines, losing housing, losing jobs. So we thought that it would be useful to document the issue from a human rights standpoint and to demonstrate just how these laws in Connecticut were costly, were counterproductive, were harmful to the population, but also the ways in which they violated international human rights law as well as US constitutional law. What are the fundamental that have been abridged
Speaker 3:[00:03:00] by this criminalization of homelessness? There's kind of three main areas that we looked at. First, it violates your right to be free from cruel and inhumane punishment. So the idea that you can get arrested for doing behavior that is necessary in life. Sustaining things like sleeping, things like standing around, things like asking for money if you have none. The second main camp is certain fundamental civil liberties. Things like the freedom of speech by a pan handling law because you're not allowed to hold [00:03:30] up a sign or use your words to ask for something that you need. They violate your right to the freedom of assembly. People often are living in tent encampments together and police officers, we've seen dozens of times we'll go through and slash those encampments. Loitering laws prohibit people from gathering together in a public space. These laws violate your right to privacy.
Speaker 3:I'm again with tent encampments. Police will come in and sometimes take people's belongings. And then the third really big problem here is that these laws are arbitrary [00:04:00] and discriminatorily enforced. Many of these ordinances are so broad. Loitering laws prohibit people from loafing or standing, ideally things that no person would know when their conduct does or does not conform to the law. Many of us have stood outside coffee shops in new haven all the time and I've never been approached by a police officer, but those who appear homeless are often victims of those laws. Apparently there's almost two and a half million homeless people in the United States, maybe up to 3.5 million. Now you're from different parts [00:04:30] of the country, pretty evenly spaced. Is this a problem everywhere? Yeah. We've been also partnering and working with the, some lawyers from the National Law Center on Homelessness and poverty and they work across the country in lots of communities and they look at the criminalization of homelessness and it is a, it's a problem and it's a growing problem.
Speaker 3:Cities are trying to deal with the rising homeless population and a lot of times they decide to pass laws that they think are going to control the issues that they believe the rising homeless population are having. So they'll pass laws [00:05:00] like prohibiting panhandling or um, you know, loitering laws because they want to address this problem. And the easiest way that they see it sometimes is to pass laws that then harm people experiencing homelessness. And from what we've heard, it is a problem all across the country in this report. There's great examples where they, they aren't chronically homeless, but they ended up homeless. And what happens to them once they become criminalized?
Speaker 2:Um, so one person we spoke to in Middletown, I believe, told us his experience [00:05:30] of waiting for a shelter to open shelters generally closed down during the day. So it was dusk and he was hanging out on the sidewalk outside of the shelter waiting for it to open so he could go in and claim his bed. And he was approached by a police officer and issued a citation for loitering. So again, he had nowhere else to go. He was just waiting for a shelter and he was given the citation. He didn't have money to pay for the ticket, which generally in Connecticut is around $99.
Speaker 1:And how did he get the tickets? Does he have an address?
Speaker 2:The [00:06:00] officer, when they approach you in Connecticut, they will write you out a citation which says that you've been cited under this ordinance and you owe $99 and then you're given the option to pay the ticket or to plead not guilty and to plead not guilty. Generally you have to call a hotline, send in a piece of mail, or go online. A lot of times, all three of those options are foreclosed to people experiencing homelessness because they just may not have access to stamps, to internet, oftentimes [00:06:30] to phones. And so what happens then is even if they are able to plead not guilty, the next step is for them to be assigned to a court date where they will go in and contest the citation. But the way in Connecticut that people are assigned court dates pursuant to citations is to be mailed a notice of that court date.
Speaker 2:If you're living in homelessness, you probably don't have a permanent address where you can get mail. So even if a person goes through all the steps that they would need to do to plead not guilty to a citation, [00:07:00] they oftentimes don't get notified of their court date. So they missed the court date, at which point they are charged with something called failure to pay or plead, which is a misdemeanor, and it triggers an arrest warrant. So there's then a warrant for their arrest that's out. And the next time they're waiting for the shelter to open and they're approached by a police officer. The police officer is going to run their name, find this warrant, and arrest them immediately. And then they end up spending a night in jail, at least before they can see a judge. And the good thing [00:07:30] is in Connecticut, most of the time, anecdotally, the judge will throw out the charges and recognize that this is silly, that you didn't need to spend a night in jail.
Speaker 2:We're not gonna push for this $99 from someone living on the street, but the damage has been done because they've spent a night in jail, which means oftentimes they've lost their spot in a shelter. They've had to miss work. They've potentially lost some valuable counseling or drug services, and it really kind of spins people's lives in a way [00:08:00] that is really detrimental when they're trying to get back on their feet. So even though a lot of times the reaction we've gotten is, oh, but these are just citations. When you follow that cycle from citation to failure to pay or plead to arrest, it's more than just getting issued a ticket. It's really can be incredibly detrimental to people's lives and keep them in [inaudible]
Speaker 1:poverty. If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show [00:08:30] on k a l x Berkeley. Today we're talking with the authors of a study called forced into breaking the law, the criminalization of homelessness. Just reading this made me, it really opens your eyes to the people you see on the street and here in Berkeley we, I'm sure you have, as visitors have seen a lot of these tents going up and everything. How would you break out the percentages? Who is homeless? It's a
Speaker 3:huge mix of people. Um, we've seen after the 2008 recession, [00:09:00] a lot of people who had stable housing and jobs haven't been able to keep up with their rent payments. Um, and they've ended up on the streets. You see a lot of people who are suffering from addiction, people with mental illnesses, people with disabilities, victims of domestic violence can often end up on the street. It really runs the gamut. A lot of veterans, 8% of the national total are veterans and many on the verge of becoming homeless. What I liked also about your study was that you came up with some recommendations [00:09:30] to many different levels of government.
Speaker 2:Our overall recommendation is that these laws need to stop being enforced and ideally cities need to take these laws off the books. They're just not helpful in any way and they only serve to keep people in homelessness. Our first recommendation to lawmakers and to police departments was to stop enforcing these laws and to repeal them. But then there are other, you know, there are so many different players in this cycle, so for example, business owners I think often don't realize [00:10:00] that when they call the police because they think having a group of homeless people outside of their business is hurting business. They don't necessarily realize that what they're doing is they're triggering this cycle which may end up putting these people in jail and a lot of times we believe that no one, no business owner necessarily wants to throw someone living on the street in jail. They just don't realize that by calling the police to enforce an ordinance, that's the cycle that they're triggered.
Speaker 3:Great. Let's say you have a restaurant and it's been flourishing and [00:10:30] lately a handful of homeless people have been gathering in front and let's say they aren't the cleanest and perhaps there's urine, feces, whatever, on the streets nearby and you own this restaurant. What are the rights of the restaurant owner in this? What is your solution to something like that? Why aren't there port-a-potties set up? Yeah, that's a really good point. And something that we get a lot of pushback from when we talk to people because you know, there are sanitation laws that have to be abided by. And I think our response to that [00:11:00] would be that instead of using laws that are going to put these people who are in poverty, in jail instead increasing services for these people so they have access to places to go during the day so that and who's going to pay for that?
Speaker 3:Um, I think that an interesting finding in our report was that it caused with three times more money to jail someone than to provide them shelter. And so it's expensive this cycle that, that cities are engaging in and police officers are, you know, arresting these people. It's expensive for the city. And so if there was a way to maybe use some of the money that it's going [00:11:30] towards jailing these peop, the costs of enforcing these laws could go into more services. And something that else that we learned while we were doing the studying for this report is we don't know a lot of the details about housing. And providing more affordable housing. That's the real issue here. If there were, if there was affordable housing, um, and people had access to the services that they need, then criminalization, homelessness would, would not be as well here in, they're consolidating the services here in the city. But what's happening is they are sending people places they don't want to go. [00:12:00] And did you encounter that in your [inaudible]?
Speaker 2:We didn't so much. And the scale of homelessness in Connecticut is so much smaller than what's happening on, on the whole west coast. And that's part of all Fornia is number one in homelessness I believe in the country. Yeah. And that's part of the reason we're here on this trip is to look at what cities on the west coast have done as alternatives to just passing laws that criminalize homelessness and enforcing. Where are you going? So we are in San Francisco now or the bay area and we're [00:12:30] going to be going down to La to look specifically at homeless courts, which are courts that are set up specifically to deal with individuals experiencing homelessness and their interactions with the criminal justice system. And instead of putting them into jail, allowing them to complete programs, mental health programs or community service programs as an alternative to a traditional jail, fine with the recognition that a lot of times people living in homelessness are arrested or encounter the criminal justice system for [00:13:00] reasons that are out of their control because they're living on the street because they have an addiction problem because they have a mental health problem.
Speaker 2:And so rather than punishing them, getting them connected with the services they need is a much better solution. And then finally we'll be going up to Seattle to look at the lead program, which is law enforcement assisted diversion. And that's a pre plea system, which means that police officers, rather than arresting someone will immediately divert them to services. Um, so that they never have a criminal record. And right now that's [00:13:30] focused on drug and prostitution crimes. But what we've learned is that 80% of those who utilize this lead program are also living in homelessness.
Speaker 3:We're on New England public radio. What has been the impact beyond that, of this report? Is it getting out there? We're doing a lot of advocacy with different cities in Connecticut. Um, so we're meeting with people in new haven now about your results and recommendations. Exactly. Let's talk about those recommendations. I think we started two a minute ago. What we're saying. Number one, don't [00:14:00] enforce these laws. So we would need to have some sort of actual action to repeal them, to get them off the books, which is a longer advocacy campaign. But in the meantime, police officers have discretion so they have the power to just not issue a loitering citation, to not tell someone to move along. Recognizing that it's ultimately counterproductive and unnecessary. And number two, we're advocating for training among officers on how to deal with, um, people experiencing homelessness, recognizing that this behavior is probably out of their control [00:14:30] and we're hoping to link up police officers with social service providers so that they can refer people to services without making them go through the criminal justice system.
Speaker 3:You know, we find that in many different areas, not just homelessness, the criminal justice system as kind of the entry point to mental health services and social services. And you shouldn't need to go to jail to get the treatment that you, so we're looking to connect everyone who recognizes the problem and wants to do something about it. Together. We're also to the judicial branch recommending that prosecutors [00:15:00] who also have enormous charging discretion don't bring charges against people for offenses related solely to their homeless status. And that judges dismiss these charges when they are brought and that public defenders are aware of this cycle. And we'll try to use the fact that a client's behavior was necessary. Life-Sustaining behavior as a defense if charges are abroad. So one thing that's unique about most laws that criminalize homelessness is that they are on a local level. So that's true in Connecticut, definitely.
Speaker 3:I believe that's also true [00:15:30] in California. So these are city laws that are being enforced at a city level. And so we have also, we have a recommendation for the police training institute in Connecticut that they implement a comprehensive training program that focuses on how police should be interacting with those living on the street in Connecticut. We have a homeless persons bill of rights and that passed in 2013 and it's, it's, I was fascinated by that. I didn't know about that and it started in Rhode Island and now it's being picked up in many states. Not all but many, [00:16:00] you know, it really just in shines and articulates rights that all of us have and emphasizes that you can't be discriminated against based on your homeless status. That you shouldn't be treated differently by the police or by any government official because you're homeless. We like to think of it as a tool that empowers individuals to stand up for the rights that they already have and I think it's still being sort of tested how, how far it could be used.
Speaker 3:For example, we are looking into whether or not a public defender has ever used [00:16:30] this bill of rights as part of a defense of someone who is accused of a crime that's related to their homeless status. Um, and so that's something we're going to be exploring more, but we are also planning to encourage local municipalities to pass local versions of homeless bills of rights. And so that's definitely something we're exploring. And it's still early days. Well, you mentioned that criminalization also violates international human rights law. A lot of it kind of tracks rights at the domestic level, but in some areas international law protections [00:17:00] really are much stronger. So the main area we see that is discrimination. So while under US law, you can't discriminate on people based on say race, which you do see also a huge racial disparity. Every level of the criminal justice system and with the homeless population generally.
Speaker 3:So this intersection, um, is really much worse for people of Color. So would that issue is addressed somewhat under US law, but under the US Constitution, being homeless isn't a protected class, whereas under international law, which prohibits all [00:17:30] forms of discrimination, your socioeconomic status is protected. Is that the UN? Yeah, so there's um, a few international treaties that are relevant here. Um, the convention on the elimination of Racial Discrimination protects people against discrimination based on their race. Um, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which is one the biggest treaties on your fundamental civil rights and the United States has signed and ratified this treaty. So the US is, we don't usually sign a ratify name. Yeah. So this, so this [00:18:00] is binding law on, um, the United States and under that, um, it protects your right to equal treatment under the law and that convention has been interpreted to include protection, um, based on your socioeconomic class. Okay. How do we look in the world as far as the homelessness? Are we, are we handling it in better ways or do you know, we have seen some interesting cases. I'm significantly far ahead of what I think most courts in the United States would allow. I just wonder how many homeless people actually know [00:18:30] how they're being protected, how, how do they find this out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great point. Um, when we did our interviews and we interviewed around 60 individuals across Connecticut experiencing homelessness, and we would always ask them, have you heard of the homeless person's bill of rights? And we would give them a copy of it. And it was, it was a mixed bag. You really saw a distinction based on the community that you were entering. So for example, new Britain, Connecticut had an amazing man. All Dean Burton, who has since passed away, who [00:19:00] was a real leader in the community and organized those experiencing homelessness in the city and was actually the driving force behind passing the homeless person's bill of rights. And so you see that there are the community aspect of recognizing what rights you have pushing for more rights, pushing for recognition and visibility is so important. And that gets back to what Allie was mentioning about this right to association.
Speaker 2:And when police across the country enforce laws that criminalize homelessness, it [00:19:30] tears apart the fabric of community that's so important to advocating for rights of any community really. And so I think that there's definitely more organizing work to be done and it's most powerful when it's coming from the community itself. Who gets priority in your state that you did? The study. Connecticut is also kind of unique in that the governor has made homelessness of priority in itself. Connecticut is part of the Zero 2016 campaign, which is a goal to [00:20:00] end homelessness, Chronic homelessness by 2016 just Connecticut. It was at United still. So it's a campaign that I believe that National Law Center on homelessness and poverty, there's 38 communities that have engaged in this or signed on to this goal. And there's only two states that have done like statewide that have done it, but there's other cities that have signed on and other like groups. But Connecticut is one of only two states that a governor, um, you know, announced that he wanted to, um, do this campaign to end chronic [00:20:30] and veteran homelessness. And we did and veteran homelessness late in the year. And um, they said that the chronic homelessness was on track to be, to end in 2016. In order to be considered chronically homeless, you have to have a disability. And so there's a large intersection between disability is and mental.
Speaker 3:They've changed the definition. The HUD Housing and urban development gives grants for cities and states to combat homelessness. And their definition of chronic has changed. And the most recent definition, [00:21:00] I don't believe that it gets into the physical versus mental disability. I think that it focuses on physical disability. One thing we really want to watch out for with this goal of ending chronic homelessness is really laudable and exciting. We're happy to see it happen, but we know that homelessness is generally a transient status. Many people cycle in and out of it and many new people could become chronically homeless in the next year. So what we don't want is this goal of, hey, we did a, we ended chronic homelessness, now we can move on to another issue. This is [00:21:30] something that we're going to have to keep looking at cycle after cycle to make sure that we're really halting it. Um, and of course one of the ways to do that is to stop criminalizing people based on their status and driving them further down. What you mentioned before that the idea that it's a community and a population in and of itself, and I've often wondered whether they would start to, you know, organize in a political fashion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think it's, it's tough because it is so transient and all of, I mean it's something that I think is not recognized enough is that a huge percentage [00:22:00] of America is at risk of becoming at least temporarily homeless. Nowhere in the country can someone afford a market rate, one or two bedroom apartment on a minimum wage salary. That's crazy. So a lot of people are teetering at ash and in Connecticut. What we found was that 50% of renters in Connecticut are burdened, which means that they pay over 30% of their income on rent, which is very unsustainable and it means that these people are one paycheck away from losing their house. [00:22:30] That's very prevalent here as well with the high rent and so what you realize from that is that this is as much as yes, there is a lot to organize around and there have been really successful organizing efforts and the homeless bill of rights across the country are examples of that. It's also, it affects such a broad swath of of our nation that it's hard to pin down a person or a group of people or highlight whatever characteristics. It's so diverse. It's such a diverse [00:23:00] group of people who are living in homelessness or who might experience homelessness even just for a month. And I think it's really important to recognize that it is and that this is not an identity. This is, this is a housing status here in, in
Speaker 3:the bay area. Some tent cities have been raised and then they crop up in another place. What do you think happens to those people and why do you think some of them refuse shelters? That's a good question. Through our interviews in Connecticut, Interviewing People experiencing homelessness, we learned a lot about shelters [00:23:30] and how they can be extremely stressful environments. There's not enough shelter beds for the amount of people who are experiencing homelessness. In Connecticut, a shelter is not a place that you want to go. It's not a place that many people want to be. I mean, you're safe from like the elements of being outside, but it's overcrowded. They're bed bugs. It's a very, very stressful place to be. And so we did talk to a few people who, who wanted to live in tents in their own space and have their own belongings with them and kind of take agency over where they were living though they couldn't afford a place to live.
Speaker 3:They did not want to be in [00:24:00] shelters, which is why another reason we don't advocate in our recommendations for increased shelter space because shelters are not a solution. They're a bandaid. Affordable housing is the real solution here. Um, shelters are not a solution. Yeah. Tiny homes, right. There are some movements to, to make things more permanent. But I can understand after, after doing these interviews, why someone would not want to be in a shelter and would want to have more agency over where they, absolutely. And there's the complication too of if you have a family, I mean there [00:24:30] are, you know, different kinds of shelters. There are some dry shelters only. So people who have addictions and other issues, um, drugs or alcohol, there's, you know, the issue of if you have a family, there's very limited shelters and so you have a question of living together in your car or on the street or having to get split up.
Speaker 3:Sometimes that's a major issue. So there are a lot of reasons why people would not want to go to shelters, even if there is space. What have you in your research, come across any incredibly innovative solutions to some of this? I know you're partly out here to look at some of these [00:25:00] alternatives, but have you come across any in other states? Yeah, so we think we haven't really found anywhere that's figured out the ideal solution yet, but we're really interested in bits and pieces that are happening in other places. So for instance, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, um, they noticed there were a lot of people panhandling asking for money. And one thing that they came up with is they developed a program where the city people would drive around and offer them jobs that paid above minimum wage for the day. And then they would take them, they would drive them to the work sites.
Speaker 3:[00:25:30] Then at the end of the day, they would drop them off at a social services center to try to get people who needed treatment set up with that. So that was a really exciting program. There's a few problems. One, a lot of the jobs from my understanding are physical. So if you have a physical disability, you can't necessarily participate. But the other big problem is that Albuquerque still criminalizes panhandling. So you're, you have this solution, but it's not necessarily leading to a job that's going to pay you enough such that you don't need to beg for money anymore. So you're out on the street and you're still getting a citation and sucked into this cycle. [00:26:00] So we think that that paired with decriminalization and also paired with increased access to permanent housing could be a really interesting idea. So I'm from Madison, Wisconsin. I hadn't spent a lot of time with people who were struggling in this way and this extreme poverty.
Speaker 3:And so going out around Connecticut and interviewing these people, um, and finding more about this harm that is really kind of opaque. It's really hard to see unless you delve into it. I think I was surprised by like just how harmful this cycle can be [00:26:30] on how much people in this extreme poverty are made invisible, I guess like put it into the shadows. I mean you just, you throw them in jail, then you don't have to think about them. You don't have to see them. And it makes people very uncomfortable to see people living in poverty talking to them. I think made this project feel very personal and um, it just made me really, really want to think about and try and come up with recommendations because I don't think we just want to document the harm. I think we want to do more because we feel invested.
Speaker 3:I'm actually from Massachusetts and most of my work has been around criminal justice reform. A lot of it working with [00:27:00] people serving very long sentences, life sentences, people on death row and in my other public defense work, usually getting someone a low level offence, lower time in jail or something reduced to a fine as opposed to incarceration is considered a victory. I'm and I hadn't yet worked with people where they were facing a fine and realizing just the devastating cycle that justifying for $50, which in the scheme of our criminal justice system, it seems like a relatively small penalty can actually really ruin someone's life. And I think it's so important now when we have a conversation [00:27:30] about mass incarceration to actually broaden that, that it's not just about incarceration, it's about the entire criminal justice system and these exorbitant fines and fees that many people living in poverty cannot afford. I wanted to know what you think the future of this project is and also I'm sure some of our listeners will want to read this great report and how would they access this online?
Speaker 2:We are, you know, all graduating in May, but between now and then we're going to be doing some intensive advocacy in Connecticut [00:28:00] with cities across the state and potentially also at the state level to try to get our recommendations implemented there. Um, we're out here for the next week and a half on the west coast to look into more detail at these programs we've mentioned that are alternatives to criminalization of homelessness, to see if, if we could make recommendations in Connecticut to implement any of these programs in addition to decriminalizing, that's really what's on deck for us. Snack. If listeners want to read the full report, it can be accessed [00:28:30] at the Yale law school website. Pacifically. If you were to Google Yale Law Lowenstein, l, O, w, e n, s, t, e, I, n, that should take you to the Lowenstein website and there should be a link pretty prominently to our report. They can download a pdf, download the PDF. There's also an executive summary if people are short on time.
Speaker 3:Well I highly recommend this a reading as especially for lay people. It just really lays out very clearly what the laws are protecting, [00:29:00] not just homeless people, but all of us
Speaker 2:Berkeley law has actually put out similar reports looking at the criminalization of homelessness across the State of California in conjunction with the Western regional advocacy project and specifically the policy advocacy clinic at Berkeley Law. Um, so I'd recommend if people out here on the west coast and especially locally in Berkeley, are interested in learning more about this. I'm looking into the work they've done and they've put out reports that document that these laws are on the books [00:29:30] in Berkeley and across the state of California as well. I think Berkeley has at least a dozen laws that criminalize homelessness. Whether it's about giving someone a ticket for sitting on the sidewalk or you know, not allowing them to have a shopping cart, a variety of, of laws like that. So they're doing really good work.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm really grateful having you three on the program. It's been really fascinating. And the study I highly recommend forced into breaking the law, this criminalization of homelessness. So check it out. Thank you for being on [00:30:00] the program, and you've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Just look for the method to the madness. Tune in again next week at this same time.
Speaker 4:[inaudible].
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