Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are joined by WFSB morning show anchor, Nicole Nalepa, to discuss season 3 of "The Morning Show." In this season we see a different Alex Levy and discuss if people with narcissism can change. We get to see Cory's mom which gives us such great information for answering the age old question of nature versus nurture. Bradley and her brother continue to give us strong family dynamics to discuss and we finish up with the impact of power and money on a person's personality. Nicole answers all our questions about what goes on behind the scenes at a morning show (like what time she wakes up and if she does her own hair and makeup). Nicole also shares how she practices self care while covering traumatic stories and events. We hope you enjoy!
Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.
Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.
Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there and it drives us nuts.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.
Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.
Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. And welcome back for another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury. Of course, I have my friend and colleague Portia Pendleton here and we are so excited to welcome a very special guest, nicole Nalapa, who is the anchor of Connecticut's number one morning newscast, Eyewitness News in the Morning, and the co host of WFSB's newest lifestyle TV show, great Day at Nine A. She came to WFSB in December 2013 and has been waking up Connecticut every weekday morning since. She wears many hats at channel three. Her newest role began in September 2022 when she was named the co host of Great Day at Nine A. Alongside Scott Hanley. She also hosts the weekly franchises, including Family Friday, What's Going On, the Bright Spot, and Three Things You Need to Know. And when you don't. She also has a podcast called Mommyhood Unscripted, which is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, where she tackles some of the biggest topics and least discussed issues surrounding motherhood, which, as a reproductive psychiatrist, I totally love. She's a mama, too and takes listeners along for the ride. And before coming into Connecticut, she did a whole bunch of things. She worked in Springfield, she did a lot of live on scene reporting, she had an Emmy winning newscast aired on CNN, and she also spent several months at CBS in New York, interning for the evening news with Katie Couric. Is that right?
Nicole Nalepa: Yes, that's right.
Dr. Katrina Furey: So we are so thrilled that she's here, a, because she's super cool, and B, because we're talking about one of our favorite shows, the Morning Show season three. And this is just, like, so exciting to talk to someone who's actually on a morning show, right? Like, I'm just dying to hear what is that? Like, how do you wake up so early? Do you like getting your hair and makeup done every day? Is it like the kardashians where you sit there on your phone and they're just fluttering around you? Do you do your own investigative work? What do they get? Right? Basically, I want to know all the things.
Nicole Nalepa: Well, thank you so much, ladies, for having me on your podcast. I'm so excited to be here. And, yeah, it is exciting to talk about a show that has to do with this industry because so often I always say to my coworkers we have had so many laughs and so many funny moments and also emotional moments both in front of the camera and behind the scenes. So I always say this would make a great reality show but it's hard to right? Because in the news industry you need to be as unbiased as possible. But I swear we are real human beings. We go to the bathroom, we do everything else that you guys do.
Dr. Katrina Furey: No way.
Nicole Nalepa: But no, it was fun. I loved in The Morning Show came out, I was really excited. And of course, I Have to Admit, I Had a very hypercritical eye, too, because whenever you see I mean, obviously the process of how things happen, but whenever you see people who are trying to portray anchors or reporters, you have that anchorman like, Good Morning, San Diego. And that was the one thing when I Got Into business, I look back at my Old reels and old clips and stuff when I First Started out, and I said, oh, little Nicole, she was trying to be older and tried to get that news voice, and we were all feeling it out. Everyone does when you're starting out in the business. But I remember at Some point, something clicked. I think it was when I got here to Connecticut. At that point, because I had a few reps in, in Springfield, I was actually hired as a traffic anchor. Technically, here in Connecticut, I was going to be a reporter. But then their traffic anchor was leaving, and then they said, hey, you should work with this guy, Scott Haney. You know, the guy that ate cat vomit off the bottom of his shoe, alive on air. And I'm like, what? Well I've never heard of this guy but he know the most beloved meteorologist and on air talent probably in the state of Connecticut. I had no idea of his legacy until I got here from Massachusetts and I said wow, now I get know this is like the magic and at that know, doing traffic it was all ad living. I didn't have a teleprompter so I really had to think on my feet and working alongside him he's so zany and crazy and unpredictable in the best way possible and definitely in an unconventional news way. I would say that nothing is rehearsed, nothing is fake even in the newsroom excuse me, in the morning show and the newsroom, that's another great show too. They also have those fake laughs you see they're trying to elicit those emotions but they schedule it in I remember saying to myself I never want to fake anything. I don't want a news anchor voice, I just want to be me and it's work.
Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so cool. Tell us a little bit about your take about the morning show like what it's getting right, what it's getting wrong?
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah well so the morning show, that's from a network standpoint so that's big time right. That's new York. You're seeing all of these operations. There's a job for everything. There's a person behind the camera, there's a person that's running scripts. There's a person that's running you scripts. There's someone what was it? The anchor producer. Right. Someone's set to just produce the anchor.
Dr. Katrina Furey: There's someone there's a junior and a senior one.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. There's a big hierarchy. Yes. The booker. I wish we had a booker here on a local level, local TV news. It is quite the opposite. And just by way of we basically do five different jobs. That's just kind of how we've adapted into this industry, provided it's changed over the years. Like the that was definitely the heyday of before the World Wide Web really took charge and came through. And these phones, too, right. Have changed the way we get our news. So there were more bodies, I would say in, but I don't know even if you could see in our studio here, I'll turn you around, but we have robotic cameras. We don't have camera guys in our studio. We have literally a system that will tell the camera where to zoom in and who to zoom in on. So we don't have camera guys like the morning show. But obviously in New York, at CBS News, when I was interning there, they have camera that was that was accurate, I would say. And seeing the process. Right. And when breaking news comes in and how they're all kind know, just huddling up really quick. Yeah. How are we going to figure this out? We got to get it on. We got to get it on. That's very accurate. Yeah.
Dr. Katrina Furey: How do you wake up so early?
Nicole Nalepa: So that's one thing I love, seeing the morning show and how they portray the alarm clock. Right. They're always like and trying to hit.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Snooze and they have to get out of bed.
Nicole Nalepa: And I love the shots. Right. The close up shots of them trying to put their shoes in the slippers and making their coffee. And that's very accurate as well. I think to work on a morning show, to some degree, you have to be a morning person. Whether you feel like you're a morning person or not, to some degree, you have to there are some people that can do it, probably, and some people that can't. Some people are more night owls. I worked overnight when I started in the business, and then when I came here to Channel Three, I ended up my shift was shifted. So I think I was working four to twelve when I first started here and then shifted back. And I don't know, to me, going from overnights to getting up early in the morning, I actually got to sleep finally, like when everyone else sleeps, when it starts out. So that was an upgrade for me. It's still tough, though. My alarm goes off at 230, so no 330 alarm like Alex Levy or.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Bradley jackson extra hour of sleep.
Nicole Nalepa: Wow. Yeah. And she probably has a driver, too. Most networks, they have a driver. They send a car and they drive you to the station. No, I'm driving myself. And I'm doing my own hair and makeup, too.
Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it looks great. Yeah, you're really good at it.
Nicole Nalepa: Thanks. That's another thing, another little myth I'll dispel. So we don't have any makeup or hair artists. Most local news stations do not. I think New York may still have hair and makeup. Maybe La. And I don't even know if Chicago does anymore. When I was interning in Boston about I mean, this is a little while ago now, but they didn't have hair and makeup. You that was, I think, probably one of the big expenses to go.
Dr. Katrina Furey: That takes skill to do on air quality hair and makeup that's different from your everyday hair and makeup.
Nicole Nalepa: It is.
Dr. Katrina Furey: That's expecting a lot of you to be able to do that and be a journalist.
Nicole Nalepa: I call it your clown makeup. I'm like, I have my clown makeup on stronger. Right? Exactly. Because these lights are very bright and you don't want to get washed out, but that's a skill. We do have these image consultants, most stations do, where they'll say, hey, this shade looks really good on you. And they'll show us some makeup tips and just recommendations, which is really helpful. Right. Because it's accentuating the parts right. And the features in your face. So I've learned over the years from multiple consultants at my stations, and it's been really helpful. But you have to have a thick skin, too, because you're looking at your face really early in the morning every day. And I learned that my face is not symmetrical like I always thought it was when I drew myself portraits in school.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's pretty rare to have a symmetrical face.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah.
Dr. Katrina Furey: But I also appreciated that they were really honing in on how early the characters wake up, because that is hard. I remember in my residency training, doing, like, 24 hours shifts, night shifts, shifting between night shift and day shift, it was so hard on your body. It's just like your circadian rhythm isn't meant to do that. And I remember working overnight in the Er, and it was like, every night right around 03:00 A.m., I would get so cold and tired and hungry, and I had some senior attending tell me, like, well, yeah, your cortisol level drops around this time, so naturally you want to kind of hibernate. And so just thinking about you and watching the show, I'm like, It must be extra hard to wake up at that time.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I think before kids, I made it work and didn't get a lot of sleep. And then when I became pregnant, and then after my second pregnancy, I'm like, oh, God, I wasn't sleeping at all. That was the hardest I've ever experienced. So I appreciate my sleep now more so than I did in my 20s, when you remember being in your twenty s and just we can ride this out. We'll catch up on the weekend. I can take a nap when I get home.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Well so one thing that we thought would be interesting and portia, please chime in. Is, again, one thing that we or I find myself often telling my patients these days. I would say kind of always, but especially since 2020 with COVID and the election and the social unrest in our country and everything going on, we would talk a lot about limiting your news consumption to help limit how much traumatic material you were being exposed to that you're already thinking about throughout the day. And even, like, our diagnostic manual called the DSM, the way they define PTSD or post traumatic stress disorder, changed from version four to version five, which actually came out many years before 2020. But they adjusted it so that people who before then, you had to actually experience the trauma directly to be able to be diagnosed with a trauma disorder. Now they've changed it. So you can either experience it directly, witness it, like, via bystander, or experience it vicariously. And I believe that was done in part to capture a whole lot of other people who are being traumatized. And I know especially, like, in my training, we talked a lot about people in certain professions, like police officers, firefighters, journalists, newscasters, photojournalists, who are like, in the thick of it, like, we see Andre in season three. But I was wondering if you could kind of speak to that, because I feel like you can't limit it. You are reporting on it, and I just think that's got to be so hard. And I wonder, how do you guys take care of each other? How do you take care of yourselves? Is that talked about in the field? Is anyone looking out for you guys in terms of your own mental health? I feel like I hope so.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that that's probably a question we don't always get. We always get the what time do you wake up in the morning? But of course, when we think of the serious and the more traumatic things that we cover, we don't always want to go there asking people those questions. Right. But I am so happy to answer that. I can only speak, obviously, from my experience, but from what I have experienced in covering some traumatic stories in particular, actually, the one that comes to mind when you were talking about this is the Boston Marathon bombings. I was there, maybe less than a mile from where they ended up finding the brother underneath the boat that was hiding at the you know, from the moment the bombs went off at the finish know we were wall. To wall coverage, obviously from up until when I got a call in the middle of the night from my news director at the time saying, we're sending you to Watertown. And that's where the staging area is. The brothers know, throwing Molotov cocktails at everyone. And it was just such a scary time knowing, like, okay, well, this is my job and I'm going into it. And I remember sitting at the kitchen table that night and going, I'm going to let my parents know where I'm headed now, because we really didn't know what we were going into. I remember I had my insurance card and really quick before I left in the middle of the night, which, I mean, I was in my mid 20s, little over prepared, I guess I was thinking a little bit ahead, god forbid something were to happen, but you don't know. Yeah, it's very scary. And I remember when the movie about the Boston Marathon bombings came out. I still to this day, haven't seen it. And I'm from I just I feel like I've been there. I lived through it, know, to experience, know what it was like. I don't really want to see a Hollywood adaptation to watch it, but I think that it is so important to keep your mental health in check. That was kind of something for me at the time. That's how I was keeping things in check. I didn't want to expose myself to something that maybe wouldn't make me feel happy watching and reliving again. Right. So I think that in this business, overall, we compartmentalize because that's kind of how you do survive. Some of those tough stories when you're doing those doorknocks, those awful stories where a mother has just lost her child or just awful. I mean, the list goes on. And I think that we tap into a place where we get the facts and we do our darndest to deliver everything that we know and what information is going to help the public. And then I think what you do with that when you go home is really like the ultimate test there. So, for example, with the pandemic, the start of season two on the morning show when they were taking the drone image, my husband and I, he used to be in the news business, too. He was behind the scenes and we both looked at each other and I'm like, I don't want to watch this right now. I love this show. We loved it. And I'm like, I just can't watch it right now. For everyone in their right, that makes me feel so good because I said, what's wrong with me? I love this show. I know that. It's okay. We're here right now. We're okay.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Why don't I good grounding, Nicole.
Nicole Nalepa: Good grounding. I try, but yeah, I think it's just important to listen to what's not going to make you feel good in your own time, because that's your time, right. And that goes for any job, right?
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Totally.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if any workplaces talk about it enough. Like, I know I only know my own experience in medicine, where you're working in the ICU and there's really sick people. You're giving awful news. People are dying. There's codes, and then you just go to lunch, and then you go to the next one. And then even within medicine, there's not a lot of room for, like, who you just witnessed a lot. How are you going to process if there isn't a lot of modeling or anyone kind of checking in? I think, and I hope that that culture is changing. But as I think about that, of course, as a psychiatrist, I'm always thinking about these things. I wonder about other fields and the news in particular. I can never watch the news because every time I turn it on, it's like, happy, happy shooting. Happy, happy fire. It's just like it catches me by surprise. So it's hard. And I just always wonder about when that's your job. That's just got to be hard. And I hope your field also emphasizes that, or is starting to.
Nicole Nalepa: I've been very blessed where I've worked for news directors who have checked in on us when we have covered horrific stories, offering support if anyone needs counseling. We've had even comfort dogs that have come in through. I wasn't here in Connecticut when the Newtown the Sandy Hook shootings happened, but I was at Springfield at the time, but I wasn't sent there. I was producing that newscast and anchoring, but I know my husband was sent there as a photographer to cover that. I also know that the photographers here at Channel Three, they were offered anything that they need, any kind of services, because, great, well enough, we don't even need to mention what that can do, right. For anyone who experienced it on any kind of end directly, indirectly. So that is definitely mental health is, I think, like you said, definitely something that's coming to the forefront more. I think the pandemic really opened it up for people who may not have realized that they've been affected by things.
Dr. Katrina Furey: We all that trauma, right?
Nicole Nalepa: Exactly. It was such a shared collective experience. So I think one of the things that I did to kind of ground myself, because it got to a point where all we were doing right, because everyone was home, nothing was going on. We were just reading the numbers, too, recording what was going on from that standpoint. So there you were, right, like, in the ICU and the medical front of things, seeing the people die, and then we're getting the numbers to report it. So we were, like, both working from different angles, which is crazy when you think about it, right. But we were informing people and helping people in a way. And just with all the heaviness, just that these kinds of things bring, I wanted to create something positive. So I created this segment at the time that was born out of the pandemic called the bright spot. It was all about trying to focus on, okay, let's take a moment now and see what good is going on. This is awful, but what is going on? What good is happening? Anything from the little kids doing these drives or sending messages to the healthcare workers? Everything. There were so many amazing stories, so that kind of helped ground me, too. At least that hard news time as well. And that was like my little baby. And every day I worked really hard to turn out the best positive stories that I could find here in the States. So that was really cool. I hope I'm answering your questions.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Definitely. And I think that's so important that, again, it reminds me of the Mr. Rogers quote that, you know, in times of suffering, look for the helpers. Even when things are atrocious, you can find a glimmer somewhere. It can be harder at certain times than other times. But if you can try to find that and hold on to it without forgetting what's going on right. Without repressing that or ignoring it. But you need that as a human to kind of soldier on.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, absolutely.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And we see kind of a tragic way in which Hannah from season one was not given help and her helper ended up being harmful. But I thought it was beautiful. In season three, in one moment, they all kind of got together and were, like, meeting in the and I was like, oh, why? And then they were all kind of sharing a moment of tribute to Hannah. And I was, you know, that family kind of aspect of being a team in the newsroom, the all of the people who were kind of connected with her. I thought that was just like a really nice moment that they kind of continued to bring her story through season three.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I was really glad they showed that. And I think, too, with season three, as we sort of transition into talking about that with Nicole. I didn't love season three, I'll be honest, as much as the first two. And I kind of felt like the plot was really similar to succession with the big, rich, fancy tech guy coming in and then all the shenanigans with the shareholders and the board meetings and all the stuff I don't understand. Still great. Love it. But I thought it really spoke to the importance of the news being neutral and for people being able to trust and rely on the news to get their information and how that is something I think, even with all the discourse about TikTok and what's shown on TikTok versus what's shown on your TV. And how do you figure out who to trust and what happens when Elon Musk buys you know, this tech giant buys the news? It really got me thinking. Really? I hadn't really thought about that in any great detail. So it was really interesting commentary on all of that this season.
Nicole Nalepa: I like seeing Don Draper.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.
Nicole Nalepa: I love him.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Jen Aniston. I was like, they're just beautiful.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: I really like the couple like themselves. I was like, they are a good match.
Nicole Nalepa: I know. I love to see them. Wow.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, it was great. Like casting.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, for sure.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: So what do you think about because they talked a lot about streaming in season two and three. As right is really on streaming. He believes in it. He wants the streaming service for, like what's it been like for you guys? Kind of navigating having Instagram TikTok even like Facebook. I do follow WFSB. I really quickly love you and Scott Haney. My mom's very excited today that I'm talking to know it's just been a huge shift with news, and I think you guys do a great job. But I imagine the transition after transition, first with COVID like filming at home wearing masks, like having visors up and then having to do more reels, how I think of them on social media.
Dr. Katrina Furey: What'S that been like for you guys.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: As it compares to the morning show or just in general?
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, I think in general, just with anything, technology changes things, and you got to keep up with things. And as we saw Right in the morning show, how Corey kept pushing, we got to go to streaming, we got to go to UBS Plus. And he was upset, right. That they waited on that. I definitely think the pandemic, just generally speaking with this industry as a whole, we realize that we can do a heck of a lot more on our phones, right. We can stream live and report live from wherever we are. We have capabilities to do that. Like you said, social media, the Facebook live stories, that was huge, right? Doing all of those live stories. And it's so interesting to see this industry shift again. And it's exciting in the sense that we're keeping up with things. We definitely have our pulse on what's new, what's the latest, what's going to reach people, what's going to help people. It means that there's a lot less downtime, not like there was any downtime before. You go into work every day and it's a brand new day. That's what I loved about this industry. Unless if you're working on a special sweep story or something or like a feature story, it's not the same day after day after day, right. Every day is different. Every story is different than the day before, even if it's an update to a follow up to a story. So I think that this has helped continue the dialogue of stories. So when we have what's on air and then we switch to streaming, it's kind of keeping things going and the dialogue going on stories, and it's making sure that viewers know that, hey, we haven't forgotten about this. We're still asking those questions and we're still following up on it right now, so it's not as much of a to be continued dot, dot, dot. It's kind of like, all right, here's what's new. Here's what's happening now, and here's what's happening next. This is the latest that we have at this point in time, and we're busy doing that with all the streams and stuff. To answer your question, I think that it's giving people what they want. And when you think of all the younger generations, now most of them are getting news from their phone more often than not. So if you want to stay relevant and you want to put the important information out there that people need when they wake up in the morning, that's the way to do it.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. That is a lot, though. It's like you're always on. Right. That was one thing this show really captures, is, like, whenever the news breaks, all right, it's time. We got to go figure it out, no matter what's going on.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I always say I feel like I'm always in transit, but I always had this personality before I got in this business, so I think I was attracted to that, and it was a great fit for me.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, a lot of adrenaline.
Nicole Nalepa: Yes. I always succeeded in chaos, always from a young age.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I get that.
Nicole Nalepa: So. Yeah, I like that. I like that adrenaline rush. I like being able to help deliver important stuff. And I think that there's such a huge responsibility that comes with that. Because like I was telling you before about the anchor voices and stuff, you have such a huge responsibility delivering certain stories to the people and in a way where you have to be an empathetic person if you really want to reach people. And if you're really feeling it, you just got to say it from the heart when you do it. You know what I mean? I almost, like, in a way, I wanted to reclaim that when I got in this business, too, because it's so hard. What am I trying to say? We grew up watching news anchors and stuff, and then Anchorman comes out, the movie. Right? Will ferrell love it. But it's like, I want I just want people to feel like we're just talking to them, and there's no ego. There's no coming up today. I don't want that.
Dr. Katrina Furey: The anchor voice?
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, because people are letting you literally into their homes every day. You're part of their routine. And I have to be honest, I don't really think about that. Like, when we stare into the camera, I'm not thinking about how many people are on the other side of that lens. I'm literally just, like, talking like I would talk to my mom or to a friend hanging out with my coworkers. It's a very surreal experience, and I realize it's a very wild job to have, and one I guess I don't think as much about. Obviously, I know what I do. And I know it reaches people, but I don't think I understand the extent and how impactful it is. Sometimes until I see a viewer, like when I'm at the grocery store or someone, they'll be like, hey, Nicole. And I'm like, oh, hi. I don't know that person's name. And then I'm like, oh, wait, they probably watch on is like it's still a novelty, I guess, in a way, to me, it's also got to be.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Like a skill to be able to talk to a camera like a robot cameras in such a personable way. Right. Even if there's a camera man or woman behind it, there's a human. So I feel like that's just a really interesting skill to have. And I wonder if you can comment at all about one thing that I think Portia and I were thinking might be similar between therapists and newscasters is you would tell us if we're wrong, but it seems like we see in the Morning show bradley can have a hard time. I mean, she does a good job, but you know her, right? And like, sometimes I think it seems like the network wants her to be more neutral or not talk about certain things or keep it here, don't go there. And I feel like as therapists, at least in our role, it's really important to maintain a sense of neutrality, especially when you're helping your patients navigate COVID or the 2020 election or the January 6 riots. How do you maintain that neutrality so they feel open to talk to you? That's different from what you do. But I wonder if you can comment at all about what that's like to comment on such charged things, and if the morning show your opinion about how they're portraying that.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, it is nice to see the extreme example of someone in this industry, what it would probably look like when struggling with that. You see that internal conflict play out outside. Even on her face, you can really see it. Whereas Alex has a better job at just holding things together.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
Nicole Nalepa: I remember her saying, actually, like, I do something control. This is what I do really well.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Like damage control or what?
Nicole Nalepa: This is what I'm meant to do. I'm great at doing damage control. She's good at reeling it in. So you see the two extremes. I think that at least what helps me in those situations. Because at the end of the day, we all have opinions on things, whether or not we make them vocal or not. But I think that just like any job, it's almost like we took this unofficial oath mentally to do this public service and acknowledge that there are going to be people who are on both sides of the aisle and a lot of people who are unsure too. And your job is to not do anything from where you're standing to move their point of view. You just have to stick to the.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Facts to the facts.
Nicole Nalepa: Exactly. I know I wouldn't want someone swaying me, trying to sway me one way if I'm turning on the television, and that's what those editorial shows are for. The news is so different. You just literally stick to the facts and also make sure that both sides are reflected in a story, which is also so important, too, because you have to get both sides of it. Even if someone isn't going to comment on the story, you have to let the viewers know that you tried to get their comment and they wouldn't return our calls. You might hear that in some news stories.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: There's a moment at the end of season three where Chip is, like, making this on air live after he's let Go statement about why Mark's, like, shouldn't buy the network and what the risks are and what I really liked. And again, it feels really relevant just to and this is how we fact check and we get the alert. We call the police officers in this random town. We get the statement from them, then.
Dr. Katrina Furey: We go there and then we fact.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Check on this way.
Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's like we do this whole.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Thing just to get the story, just to be able to promote it. And it's like, I think so many people for the show, the morning show, I never realized that the 40 people yes, it's a big show, all behind the scenes, doing all this work overnight, getting everything right and it's so important. I love that you said kind of taking that oath because, Katrina, like you were saying, we're all kind of in a position of power with our clients, with the viewers know it can go wrong really quick if you kind of know the relationship with your patient or with viewers. And season three just really felt like that was kind of a big message that they were trying to get, really.
Dr. Katrina Furey: And what happens when someone like Paul Marx, who has a proclivity, you could say, for abusing his power, is now being given a lot of power that could sway things in a major way? I thought that was just like an interesting commentary.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: What do you think about Hallmarks, like diagnostically? I mean, obviously we think he's attractive, but I guess there's everything.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's pretty well known that I don't remember the statistic off the top of my head. I think it's pretty well known that when you're in such a high position of power, there is some degree of sociopathy. I don't mean that people in really high positions of power are out, like being serial killers, but there's some sense of stepping on someone else to get to where you want some sort of lust for power that comes from being able to get to those super high positions. Again, it's not everyone in the high position, right? But it's like a higher percentage of people in those uber high positions than the average person. There's some sense of that. And I feel like they could have gone a little more with him and made him a little more cutthroat, like kind of in the succession guess. I don't know if you watched Succession, Nicole, but that was a show we covered.
Nicole Nalepa: I watched like the first episode or two. I've been so awful finding time to watch shows lately. 14 month old, you have a lot of time.
Dr. Katrina Furey: But I feel like they really went there with Logan Roy in a really cutthroat way, whereas Paul Marks was more mild. But you still got enough of that flavor. Like, when they talked about what happened with Stella at Stanford, it seems like he, I guess on paper did compensate her for her programming or whatever she had done. That's where it goes over my head a little, but like, clearly not like he knew it was going to be worth way more than he was offering her those sorts of things.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And that was the NDAs.
Dr. Katrina Furey: All the NDAs. Right. I think it did really just speak to that a little sociopathy, some narcissism, but again, more of like this covert way, would you say? Portia, like trying to portray himself as earthy and very charming. But he had that edge and we really saw that when he threatened Bradley near the end of season three and when she quit. Right. Like, he knew all this stuff. It was clear he was surveilling everyone. I think he was the one who leaked the photo of him and Alex. I think we never really got an answer.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: It seems like that would be accurate.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I was trying to figure out, like, were Paul and Alex really connecting in a genuine way or was it like Alex met her match and it was like narcissists using each other to stay on top the whole time? I couldn't really tell. And then near the end, it really did feel like she was really like I think they did really genuinely care for each other.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. Because as much as they know, I think her kind of having to make that decision to ultimately betray him, even though he betrayed her, I think was really hard, because I think she had she almost felt it reminded me of. Like, I think Alex felt like he really saw her and she could be herself with him, which was like, this uber powerful woman with wanting to be more and maybe own a network and work really hard, and she's really smart, and she never got that opportunity from some of the past owners of UBA. And so I think she was really hurt by that. And it reminded me of Corey and Bradley's kind of like special, unique relationship where Bradley felt really seen by him and her authentic self. So I think it's almost like Alex was grieving, right, being able to who.
Dr. Katrina Furey: She thought he was rather than who he really was. Which I think a lot of people leaving a relationship with someone with narcissistic traits feel is they're grieving who they thought the person was rather than who they really are. Once they see who they really are, I do feel like, in general, I love Alex Levy, I love Jennifer Aniston. I love her. Just I don't think it's accurate that she wouldn't have been as narcissistic as she had been before. It doesn't just go away, unfortunately, for the most part.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah. I wonder if there's another character who could have brought that side out that we weren't seeing.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Yeah. It was just weird to me how for so much of the season, it seemed like quieter to me.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And it was very loud in season one and two.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. In a very big way. And again, I guess it is known that sometimes people with personality disorders peters out a little bit as they get older, but not all the and she's when I say get older, I mean more like elderly age, not.
Nicole Nalepa: Would you see as a personality disorder?
Dr. Katrina Furey: I think if I was diagnosing Alex Levy, I would, based on season one and two. Diagnose her with narcissistic personality disorder based on season three. I feel like we see more empathy than we've seen before. And so from like a mental health perspective, I don't know how accurate that is. Based on season one and two was, at least to me, very clearly NPD, like, in your face. I don't think that just goes away. But I think her as a character is very fascinating and I think they wanted her to have more of this arc. And she does, I guess, sort of at the end come in and save the day, which is great.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Which is also, though, like, self importance. She does get agreement from the other network and she talks to Laura. And I thought that was kind of just I don't know, I felt like, go women and everyone's working together. Yeah.
Nicole Nalepa: Girl power.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: But it's almost like, though, she is like the savior. So it could be maybe right.
Dr. Katrina Furey: But it wasn't in like a icky.
Nicole Nalepa: No.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, I guess I felt like her narcissism was coming back out when she was like, in cahoots with Paul to start her own thing. But you saw how much she was grappling with how it was going to affect the 20,000 employees. And I don't think Alex Levy from season one or two cared about that. We saw her going to see Mitch in Italy kicking off those other people on their plane so she could get right. Like that level of narcissism in reality doesn't just go away. Whereas in season three, we really saw her really wrapped with guilt over going through this and then totally changing her mind when Maggie Brenner kind of reminded her like, Bradley was really there for you and she could really see that.
Nicole Nalepa: Right.
Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, love it as a show. I think as a criticism, I think, unfortunately, doesn't happen that way, although we always wish it could.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah, I have why we have a podcast.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, exactly. From a therapy point of view, could a traumatic event such as the pandemic, it seems like that was almost a turning point for where we saw her personality kind of shift a little bit. Right. She realized, like, she was so grateful to be living. She was so grateful that she was given another chance right at her job, and it opened up the way for more opportunities. Could that kind of water down that narcissism?
Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think, Portia?
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, I'm always optimistic and filled with joy, so I feel know at least even if we think about it mechanically, trauma impacts our brain. So structurally, it could have changed her brain. How she processes information at a time, especially like the length of the pandemic and then all of the other collective traumas after that. With everything that was going on, especially considering her job and reporting on it, maybe like I don't know if it would shift her. I think if someone is truly narcissistic, like no, it could change you, how you relate to things like you were hurt by X, Y, and Z happening. You might feel the physical sensations, the change in the worldviews, the other symptoms of PTSD, but at your core, I think it's still going to come back to you being selfish or just grandiose and kind of not looking out for others. A little bit of lacking empathy. But that's why I think it's like, maybe if we think of it as a spectrum, she has maybe a lot of the narcissistic traits, and she didn't really have narcissism, and then the trauma would more so be more likely to impact her.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I think when we think about narcissistic personality disorder, right, when we think about personality development as a whole, we all need some healthy degree of narcissism to have confidence and self esteem and put yourself out there. But what balances that sense of self importance in the world? You probably see this with your children, as we see with many children. When you're younger, you're like little narcissist. The whole world revolves around you. Your parents hopefully cater to your every need, whatever you need that's met, like, at all other expenses that's developmentally appropriate. But then usually as you grow up, you start to appreciate that there's other people in the world too, and the way you relate to them. In psychology, we call it object relations is really important. And that is the part that gets kind of stunted in people who have narcissistic personality disorder, where they have a really hard time holding on to conflicting feelings about themselves and others, like being good and bad at the same time. They can't tolerate being bad at all. And really deep down, the core wound is they feel useless, they feel worthless, they feel really bad, but they can't tolerate it. So they have to project it out onto other people, put them down, put themselves up here to sort of maintain their own inner sense of goodness. They haven't learned how to see other people for who that other person really is and appreciate the complexities that that person's good and bad, and so am I, and we're all okay. They can't really do that, if that makes sense. And so I feel like in seasons one and two with Alex, we really saw that a lot, where it was her, everything is for her. Like the way she treats everyone, the way she treated Chip. Everyone's almost like, right, everyone's like a chess piece. You're moving around for your own agenda. And season three was so different, which great for her. I just think in my clinical experience, when someone's like that degree of narcissism, it doesn't shift that much, even a trauma. And again, maybe you always hold out hope, but I'm not sure. It's very hard to do therapy with people with narcissistic personality disorder.
Nicole Nalepa: So interesting. I just love listening to you guys talk. I love talking about psychology and getting in depth with feelings.
Dr. Katrina Furey: We like it too.
Nicole Nalepa: I love when you guys break it down, like, thanks.
Dr. Katrina Furey: So I want to be respectful of your time. There's so much more we could talk about, but did anything jump out to you, Nicole, about this season or the relationships, the dynamics that really spoke to you or resonated with you?
Nicole Nalepa: I think when you see the camaraderie like you were talking know, at the end there, you are a family, right? You're working with these people day in, day out, some people you're spending more time with than your own spouses. And you're also working through some horrific stories and traumatic situations and some really amazing joyous stories that you're celebrating with each other as well. So it's a very close knit community and I would say that it's a smaller business than you may think. There are a lot of people you never know who is going to advance on in the industry, which is why you should always be kind to everyone. Of course, that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. Let's be realistic, right? In life, there's always those who just struggle with that a little bit more. But I have found and I've witnessed and I've seen enough at this point where I've seen people who I may have known, who I've interned with. You never know, you might find yourself working with that person, which is great. But with that said, people will always remember how you make them feel, always treat people with respect and be kind because that also does come back around too. And there are people that unfortunately, like in any industry and workplace, people hear someone knows someone through someone else. So I think that that is like a huge theme to just never burn your bridges and just always be a kind person. At the end of the day, everyone's trying to do the best they can, and sometimes people struggle in other areas, but you just got to give everyone a little bit of grace yourself. Some grace, too. It's not an easy industry to work in, but if you love it, you can tell you want to stay in it.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: It feels like you love it.
Nicole Nalepa: I do. Yeah, I do. I love helping people. So this kind of helps satisfy that need to reach people and help people. That's always been, like, something I've loved to do. Yeah.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, we'll have to see what happens in season four. We have a lot of questions, like, what happens with the network? What happens with Bradley? Is Corey still attached to the network? There's so many places to go. We met his mom this season.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.
Nicole Nalepa: Really?
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Manipulative.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. What do you think of his mom, Portia?
Portia Pendleton LCSW: I feel like, I don't know, like, borderline. I mean, manipulative and cruel. Maybe narcissistic.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like it's exactly who I would have thought his mom would be. Like. You could just sense, like, he brought Bradley there as, like, a buffer, which I think often people with personality disorders, especially narcissism, do better with a crowd because they want to put on a good show. Right. Whereas when you're one on one with them, that's often when you get their cruel side and the real them, like, children of people with personality disorders like this will often talk about no one knows the real them. There's, like, the persona everyone else sees as charismatic, gregarious, bubbly, kind person, and then there's the real one. So I felt like him even just bringing Bradley to me was, like, diagnostic. And then she was so cruel with what she said and it was this interesting dance of codependency needs him to fill this void and he's constantly trying to fill it for her, but then she rejects him when he fills it. Or especially if he has his own need that doesn't align with hers and doesn't keep her in the center of his world. And then she's mad at him for staying away, and it's like, of course he's staying away. Look what he gets when he comes around. I was just like, I'm so glad we met her. And she was spot on who I thought she'd be.
Nicole Nalepa: Definitely.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: A mix of both. I think we didn't get her enough. I want more from her. And I think, though, for sure, we talked about last season, sometimes he appeared manic, but then I was like, or is that just the industry? He's just like, yeah, I think you.
Nicole Nalepa: Got to be ready for anything.
Dr. Katrina Furey: You got to jazz yourself up. And, like, that scene with him and Bradley driving home in the car where she's trying to empathize with him, and he's shutting her out because he just can't go there. I think it's so painful, especially when it's your mother of all people, you still love them. And she's trying to say to him, like, cory, I care about you. And he's like, no, Bradley, we mutually use each other. And I was like, oh, there it is. There's his impaired object. Can't he's struggling too. And just real quick, before we wrap up, we got to talk about the Bradley and Hal and Laura Peterson of it all.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Yeah. So she protects Hal. She's at the January 6 riots. She's filming. She gets, like, pepper sprayed her eye, hiding her identity. So she gets all this great footage, and then she sees her brother there, salting a police officer.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, of course, Hal.
Nicole Nalepa: Yeah, right.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Hal is someone who we would consider kind of diagnostically to be vulnerable to ideas, beliefs, cults. He's in recovery. He's kind of searching for hiding identity.
Dr. Katrina Furey: A purpose for connection, love for community. And just like they portrayed him all along, coming from the Deep South, I just was not surprised. He was yeah, yeah.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: So she released the and, like that the FBI investigates, and blah, blah, blah, and Corey protects her, and then Paul.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Threatens her, and it's just like, Laura.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Finds out, right, because she thinks that Bradley is cheating actually on her with Corey. Not anything like the.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, right. But then she finds out and so quickly washes her hands of Bradley. And I was like, I get it, especially with what we were talking about, how important journalistic integrity is, and it was something like that. But I also get that it was her brother. And it's like, I just feel like Bradley's always in this impossible situation. That's the role she's played in her family, it seems like the whole time, right? Like, they hearken back to when she told authorities about her dad, like, you know, killing the child and the drunk driving, and I just feel like she's always in this impossible position, and I just want to see her in therapy. In season four, I was so sad we didn't see her go to therapy.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: And I think Laura tried to get her to go.
Nicole Nalepa: Right?
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Laura did.
Nicole Nalepa: She tried.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And that was, like, such a beautiful conversation about how to encourage someone you love to go to therapy. I was so hopeful. And then it was clear she didn't go. Yeah, she's not ready yet, but maybe.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: She ordered because she's walked right the last she's walking into the FBI with Alex as a support, not Laura, and with Hal. And then the season ends, and we'll see.
Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, we know. It's coming back for season four. I'm really excited. I do love the show. And we'll see where they go.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Well, thank you again, Nicole, for joining us today. Do you want to just share where people can maybe find you? Your podcast and stuff like that?
Nicole Nalepa: Sure. I'm on social media at Nicole Naleppatv. N-I-C-O-L-E-N-A-L-E-P-A-T-B-I also have my podcast Mommy Head unscripted. You can find on Apple and Spotify and wherever else you listen to your podcast. And I'm always looking to hear from moms to see what kind of issues and topics that they want covered, because, let's face it, we still have a lot we're discovering, I think, as moms in this era. So we got to keep the conversation going on that too.
Dr. Katrina Furey: Definitely. Well, thank you so much. This was such a joy and a treat. And you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, and we'll catch you next time with a brand new episode.
Nicole Nalepa: Yes.
Portia Pendleton LCSW: Thanks, everyone.
Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, bye.
Nicole Nalepa: Thank you.
Dr. Katrina Furey : This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergency s. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
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