Episode Summary:
In this episode of the HD or Biz podcast, host Jamie Palmer welcomes Mary Clavieres, a client, friend, and newly published author. Mary discusses her latest accomplishment, the publication of her book "Mind Body Connection Unlocked." The conversation delves into Mary's work in executive coaching and advisory, focusing on helping leaders align more closely with their human design. Mary shares her journey of integrating and embodying her human design over the past few years, highlighting the importance of the deconditioning process. The discussion also covers the challenges and insights Mary experienced while writing her book, including the importance of maintaining one's authentic voice during the editing process. Jamie and Mary explore the nuances of recognition and projection as projectors and the significance of having a body of work that stands apart from the individual. The episode concludes with Mary offering advice to aspiring authors and sharing where listeners can find her book.
Guest Highlights
Timestamped Chapters and Sections
Chapter 1: Introduction and Guest Introduction
Chapter 2: Human Design and Personal Journey
Chapter 3: Deconditioning Process
Chapter 4: Writing the Book
Chapter 5: The Projection Field and Recognition
Chapter 6: Writing and Editing Process
Chapter 7: Mindset and Final Thoughts
Main Topics Covered
Order your Book: https://www.jamielpalmer.com/human-design-for-business-book/
***Complete Transcripts Below***
Jamie Palmer (00:02):
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the HD or Biz podcast. I am your host, Jamie Palmer. And today we have a very special guest with us, a client, a dear friend, and a newly published author, Mary Clavier.
Mary Clavieres (00:22):
Hi Jamie. Thanks for having
Jamie Palmer (00:23):
Me. Hi. So tell me what's going on with you? You got some big news?
Mary Clavieres (00:29):
Yeah, all the things. Latest big milestone accomplishment is publishing the book, MINDBODY Connection unlocked and yeah, it's been a ride. I mean, because been on it with me.
Jamie Palmer (00:46):
Yeah. Well tell everybody who you are and the work you're working on and obviously your human design.
Mary Clavieres (00:58):
Oh yeah. Great. Good that you mentioned human design. I might not have said it. So my work in the world right now is primarily focused on executive coaching and advisory and supporting leaders and professionals with showing up in more alignment than perhaps they have been in the past. And with that under the umbrella of opening or unlocking your mind body connection, I think, and maybe this is some of what we'll get into, but it's so powerful when you can learn how to get out of your mind and back into your body to really work from that place. And so for my human design, I'm a three five self projected projector. And I guess those are the main things because self projected already tells you the authority too.
Jamie Palmer (01:58):
Yeah. So tell me, we've been working together now for what, a couple of years. So tell me a bit about your journey so the listeners can hear kind of your process of going from knowing your human design to integrating it and embodying it and Absolutely. On the road to becoming it.
Mary Clavieres (02:29):
Yeah. So when I first started with you, yeah, I think it was a couple years ago when I first started, I signed up because I wanted to learn more about myself and my design. I knew my design already, but I really wanted to go deeper with the information. And I mean, to be honest, your content has no comparison anywhere else. So I said, okay, I want to go deeper and learn this for me and then also for my family. It's funny because when I signed up for HD Wild, I thought, okay, I'm going to use it for me and use it for my family. I have no plans to use it with other people. And then here I am two years later using it with other people, just how it goes, so, so when I first started, it was really very much from that perspective. And then probably, I don't know, six to nine months in, I said, okay, let me try doing some readings for other people. Just something I love so much and couldn't stop
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Talking
Mary Clavieres (03:32):
About and seeing and wondering about with people and all of the things. So I started with readings and then it kind of evolved from there that now I've incorporated it into my coaching and incorporated it, not directly, but as a tool within my book and some of those other ways. So it's definitely evolved over
Jamie Palmer (03:57):
Time. And talk to me about if you feel comfortable, your deconditioning process. I think that that's something that I know I talk about, but I don't think that the collective human design space talks about enough. I think they tend to glamorize it and use it as a shiny term, but not actually what does that look like?
Mary Clavieres (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And it's one thing to know your design and then there's a whole other to actually be trying and taking the steps to living it,
Jamie Palmer (04:39):
Practicing it, right?
Mary Clavieres (04:41):
To practice. Yeah, exactly. And uncovering different things in different moments. Even if I, I'll just take my authority, for example, being a self projected projector, I knew that it means you have to speak out loud to yourself. I knew that it means it's about how the information is coming out, but over time, what I learned is that it's also how it feels in my body, that process of being in my body and then exiting my body through my voice. It's kind of hard to explain, but I have, there's this felt sense in my, let's say, heart space or really even above the heart between the heart and the throat. And so then after practicing for a while, I came to realize, oh, that's actually where I get the feeling. So stuff like that, it doesn't all happen at the same time. You learn in different parts and pieces.
Jamie Palmer (05:42):
Yeah, I love that. And I think that too ties into so much of the work that you're doing in the book that you wrote.
Mary Clavieres (05:49):
Yeah, true. Yeah, because it's really, for me, discovering human design and then the process of living it has been a big thing for me with, there's other things too, of course, but a big part of me connecting back with my body and really letting that drive things more than my head.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
It's
Jamie Palmer (06:10):
Like,
Mary Clavieres (06:10):
Get out of the head.
Jamie Palmer (06:13):
Yeah. So tell me a bit about what prompted you to write a book. A big endeavor.
Mary Clavieres (06:27):
Yeah, it's a big endeavor. It is. So I feel like it's probably layered as most things are. One part of it is that I had a writing practice for a long time. I had been journaling for many years, probably since consistently journaling for at least, I dunno, six or seven years. And I started to just kind of say, okay, I went through this period, my family moved, so I didn't talk about the three five experience, go
Jamie Palmer (07:04):
For it.
Mary Clavieres (07:05):
But my family moved and we moved from the US to France, and there was a big personal transformation that happened with that being able to set up in another country. And in that process I learned a lot of things. I navigated a lot of things. I used human design to learn more about myself and through the deconditioning process. And I just felt like, okay, some of this wants to come out, it wants to be said. And let's say I would layer that or couple that with then even in your programs and talking about just I would say the power and the beauty in having a body of work in the version of having a book, for example, and using that as a way to get your voice out there. And from the perspective of also the fifth line in the projection field, having this separation in a way from me and the work, like, okay, here's the book. You read it, you resonate, or you don't. Okay,
Jamie Palmer (08:14):
Nobody talks about that. Let's talk about that for a second. Something that I've personally experienced myself too, especially in my journey of building this business. So when I began, whatever you want to call this iteration of my business, I'm likely changing my company name. So it's not Jamie Palmer, but we'll call it Jamie Palmer, whatever. I launched the H Year bi beta program, and that was so much about me. What content am I delivering? What reading am I giving? I so over gave, I was so generous in that first offering.
Mary Clavieres (08:58):
You still are, by the way, you're still very generous.
Jamie Palmer (09:01):
Thank you. I try to be, it's not a always easy, you totally are just saying thank you. And I remember I ran that I think 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times before the book came out. And I remember with each iteration, even in the HDY beta cohort, I remember it just being so me centric and everyone's success or failure was like I could feel the weight of it on my shoulders. Totally. And those projections were as a result of like, you are projecting on me, not the work. You're projecting on me, your success or your failure, your inaction.
Mary Clavieres (09:57):
That's
Jamie Palmer (09:58):
Also my fault. And I always felt that that was really weird. And then eventually it became really exhausting, actually. I was really, really tired. And I remember the book came out and people started coming in for the work and they continued to come in for the work. I'm using air quotes, you can't see me, but they come in for the work. And that was such a huge shift because when it almost gave this, I don't know if it's, I sometimes think part of it's a projector thing and part of it's a fifth line thing because I don't believe projectors aren't really here to, in my opinion, they're here to guide people based on a body of work
(10:57):
And that depth of work. So I think it's twofold, right? So when I think about my old process, it was very much about me, and it wasn't about me, but it was my teaching. It wasn't a fully formed body of work yet. And then the book came out. And so actually to finish that thought, so I think when it isn't a fully formed body of work, that fifth line, both three fives we're both projectors. I think that projection field then becomes about you failed the person, which is sometimes still true with the work, but it's less true. It happens less. And so when I think about it with the work, if you will, it's something that's separate for me. And it's like recognition for the body of work. It's projection over whether or not the work is meeting somebody's hopes and dreams or it's not.
(12:03):
And I think that has allowed me, at least me personally, to feel less crazy when a negative projection comes in. It has allowed me to feel truly recognized because I recognize myself with the work, the books, the stuff that I put out there. But then it's like somebody else is doing the recognition of the work. Somebody else is putting the projection on the work, the book, the chorus, the whatever. And so the projection doesn't seem as intense or as horrible or as whatever. This layer of separation, I don't know if you experienced that or not, but
Mary Clavieres (12:48):
I really resonate with the, it feels like there's space.
(12:53):
It feels like there's space. And I haven't even been mean. My book hasn't been published for that long, so I haven't necessarily seen all the steps after that of the difference with the clients before and after. But I feel in my body, and when people tell me, oh, I told my friend about your book and someone I know got your book, and I'm like, oh, that's great. And I feel a space between it versus if someone said like, oh, I had a human design reading and I told them about my reading. I dunno. For me, it just seems a little bit different. Just feels different.
Jamie Palmer (13:34):
Yeah. Well, I always talk about recognition should be energy giving for projectors, and I find for me, recognition as a three, five projector in my opinion is always wrapped in a projection,
Mary Clavieres (13:51):
Something. Yeah,
Jamie Palmer (13:54):
There's always a little bit of projection inside of recognition as a three, five projector, in my opinion, in my experience. And when it's for the work, whatever the work is, I think it really creates this, what I'll call an authentic recognition because I find it so much more energy giving. Then when somebody comes to me and they go, I want to pick your brain. I've had sessions with people when they come and they're just like, I want to pick your brain. And I'm like, I taught three classes about that last week. You didn't show up to one of them. That's not what this time is for. That's such a terrible waste of my projector energy to be talking to you about the same thing I talked about three times this past week. And so I think when it's for the work, whatever the work is where there's this layer of separation, I think that just recognition actually feels true, like equitable recognition.
Mary Clavieres (15:09):
And then they're also, when they're reading your words or my words or whoever's words, they're taking it in their way versus if I am in between it, I don't know. They can choose if they want more information, they can choose if they want to go deeper, they can choose if it resonates or not, based on what's in there. I dunno, there's something with that, but it's like it gives them an experience before. It's not the same example you were talking about with people not coming to a class and then asking you and picking your brain, which I totally agree that that kind of stuff is exhausting. It's like, why are you wasting my time? Not wasting, but it's not the right kind of recognition.
Jamie Palmer (16:02):
Well, also, I always think about it as it's not a good use of the client's time. Right,
Mary Clavieres (16:08):
Exactly.
Jamie Palmer (16:09):
I spent so much time talking to people, and I don't personally do the sessions in the new HD wild cohorts anymore. I don't do that because there were so many people that would just come and not be prepared, even though I would have these, here's what to expect in your session. These are strategic, you should come with questions or a question that's strategic. And I think when a client would come and do that, I'm like, this is a waste of your time with me. Go watch the video and then be like, oh, I want to dig into this thing that's coming up for me. Can we unpack this? Can we come up with a strategy? Can we, whatever? And I think part of that's that projector. I think part of it's that fifth blindness, but I do truly believe that having that layer of separation from the work is a huge part of it. Whether that's part, I think it's part fifth line for me and part third line. I don't know. I know your experience is newer, but you messaged me on Voxer the other day about it.
Mary Clavieres (17:26):
Yeah, yeah. I did specifically about this because it was honestly a realization for me. And even though it hasn't been that long, I still already felt it, which I found so interesting and a bit strange, but it felt really relatable. Like, oh yeah, there's a space between, and that for me feels good. And I guess one could argue like, oh, you're taking your work too personally if you are coaching. And then you feel these things like you mentioned before with doing the six or seven iterations. But for me, it's more than that because I know how that kind of feels. Right. But there's another part to it, so I just wanted to name that too, because that does also feel a little different. And for me, I feel like it's that fifth line piece of it.
Jamie Palmer (18:22):
Yeah. I would love to not take a total right turn, but I would love to hear you talk about what it was like to write the book. Because I think a lot of people in my audience always come to me and go, Hey, tell me about writing books. You've written books. And so talk to me. I mean, I know because we've talked about it, but I think the listeners would appreciate hearing about your experience of, I know you talked a little bit about how you had a journaling habit, but what was it actually like to write, edit, published the book?
Mary Clavieres (19:02):
Yeah, it's definitely a journey in the beginning,
Jamie Palmer (19:07):
And especially as a three five self projected projector, right? Yeah. Talk to me about that.
Mary Clavieres (19:12):
Yeah, it was definitely a process. I mean, I'd say the journaling definitely helped me because it had me already in the habit. Even if I was really critical of my voice, at least I was writing and doing it. So that didn't stop me from putting words on the
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Paper.
Mary Clavieres (19:32):
The way I look at the book writing process is there are several milestones where you can very easily give up or talk yourself out of it or judge yourself to oblivion and never go to the next step. So for example, that's just starting to write is one thing. You could be like, oh, I don't know what I'm going to write,
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And
Mary Clavieres (20:01):
Then just never do it. Right. For me, especially with the three five piece, I started by just kind of brain dumping, I would say some specific things that I knew I wanted to share, things that just felt really important to me that I wanted people to know. And after I did that for a while, it started to take shape more to then say, okay, now I see the structure a little bit better. I didn't necessarily start by knowing the full structure right away. And I think that's important to note because for some people, they do know the structure right away, and then great, you work off the structure. And then for, I didn't know the structure right away, but I still started the process. And then like you say, action brings clarity. I started the process and then it took shape more
(21:00):
After the first, let's say, little bit of time. I also wrote it in spurts. I wrote very consistently for a few months, and then I remember it was summer, and I kind of took the summer off because summer is just a busy time with young children. And then I went back to it in the fall, and it was also just kind of like, okay, this feels complete for right now. And then I took the break, and then I'm like, okay, I'm ready to write again. But reflecting for myself, I think I have enough self-discipline that could work for me
(21:43):
That it didn't feel hard to do it that way. Just because I stopped in the summer didn't mean I completely stopped. And then, yeah, after I finished, then the following year in January, I started looking, researching for editors and really took another look at the structure again and reshaped a couple of things, and then followed that process of getting the editor doing the edits. The writing part is super easy in a way. It's just really creative and free flowing, and then you have to go the editing part, which is very tactical. And I mean this already, I'm just sharing for the listeners.
Jamie Palmer (22:27):
Editing is my least favorite
Mary Clavieres (22:30):
For sure. Me too. Even if I love my editor still.
Jamie Palmer (22:34):
Yeah. I mean, I love my editor, and it is the worst part about, in my opinion, it's the worst part about the process. I think it's like, I don't know, at least for me, I'm just like, oh, I've already read this 400 times. I don't want to read it again.
Mary Clavieres (22:53):
And for me, it was like I've read it 400 times, and when you read it so many times, you overthink. I found myself overthinking almost every word that I was like, okay, I either leave it and it goes and it's good enough, or I just stop the whole thing because this is terrible. On the fifth hundred time I'm reading it, it doesn't sound good.
Jamie Palmer (23:14):
Yeah. Well, I did with the HD client Compass book, the ideal client book. I was just finally, this is my third or fourth book with her. I was just like, whatever. It's fine. I trust, I believe. And then I just read it all again, and I was like, yep, it's fine. And to me, I think too, when you think about the editing process, and I know my six line listeners are cringing, how could you not make sure you read every single thing? It's like if you're putting a book out there that has 40,000 words, inevitably there's going to be a typo. There's going to be a grammar mistake, there's going to be a mistake somewhere along the line. I'm not going to hem and haw over getting it perfect, just that's not who I am. And if that's what people expect from me, that's the wrong expectation. Okay, continue. So editing, editing, we both love editing.
Mary Clavieres (24:15):
Well, and I will say if they expect that too, for me, it's like if I expected that of myself, it would never get published.
Jamie Palmer (24:23):
No, it would never get done. No. You could just sit and edit and edit and edit and edit and edit to an oblivion. Yeah, totally.
Mary Clavieres (24:30):
Totally. I definitely, and I feel like I messaged you about that too at some point. It's like, oh, wow. Yeah, I can see how people might get stuck at this part of the process.
Jamie Palmer (24:39):
Everyone that I know that goes through the editing process is they question themselves. They're like, am I even a good writer?
Mary Clavieres (24:45):
Right. Yes.
Jamie Palmer (24:45):
And I think one of the things that I've always, not to get sidetracked, but I've always tried to do in the editing process is ensure that I don't lose my voice in the process. Because I think I know with my first book that's published with a publisher, they strong armed me into changing a lot of language because they were like, that language, I wanted to say how fifth lines feel crazy. They're like, well, that's not appropriate. We don't say that. They didn't want me to use all this word resonates too fancy of a word, and this is too, they had me water down so much. And I think, at least for me, I feel like that book is probably, of all my books that I've written and all the things that I published, that book is probably the least like me because of the fact that the publisher Strong Armed told me, they basically told me they wouldn't publish it if we didn't change these certain things and put it out there. And so I think it's really easy in the editing process, depending upon who your editor is, to also lose your voice and lose your authenticity and to change sentence structure to make things more readable.
Mary Clavieres (26:12):
Yes. So I will share my experience with this because when I was looking for editors and I was interviewing a few of them and they do a sample edit for you and everything, I was judging my own voice and kind of feeling like, oh, the way I'm saying it isn't good enough, because I'm not a fancy writer. I didn't go to school for English. I mean, I was in the engineering program. I literally had one writing class in all of college because it was absolutely not required. So I judged myself like that. And with some of the editors that came back, I was like, oh, well, first of all, very big range in price. But the other thing was, if they're moving so much around, I thought, oh, well, maybe it's better if I take this other editor that's moving more things around because my writing isn't good enough.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And
Mary Clavieres (27:16):
What I realized was, and a friend of mine told me, they said, well, if you, and we probably talked about this too at some point, we've talked about it all, but they told me, they said, if it's changed too much, then it's not you.
Jamie Palmer (27:33):
Yeah. 1000%. And there's two, it's important to name, there's two types of writers. So there's a development writer or an editor, sorry, there's two types of editors. There's a development editor, and then there's a line editor and development editors. They're a bigger investment. They typically come in as a first go through after you have a manuscript or a first draft. And they do tend to move things around. They do tend to move things around, and they do tend to change sentence structure, and they do tend to do that. And so I think depending upon how much compromising you are willing to do in the process, I think that that can be powerful. And conversely, it can also really change your book. It can really change your book versus a line editor. A line editor goes through each line as the book stands, and if something doesn't make sense, a line editor go, this doesn't make sense. Can we clarify this? But they'll go through and they'll check for grammar and spelling and that you're meaning what you're saying and question things that don't make sense. And for me, that's always what I use. I always use a line editor because I don't want my voice to change in the process. And I think what you're talking about is a development editor versus a line editor in the process for those who are listening.
Mary Clavieres (29:13):
Yeah, definitely. Yes. Thanks for mentioning, because one of them was going to kind of do both. I went with a line editor too after all of that, but I did second guess myself, and I worried that the book wouldn't be as good of quality, and I kind of had to come to terms with, well, actually, this is my way. So then if we fast forward from the editing process when I had my book launch, skipping some steps there. But when I had my book launch, I invited someone, I had given an advanced copy to one of my friends and asked her to say a few things about the book. And the first bit of feedback that she gave was she said, I can hear you saying these things to me as I'm reading it.
Jamie Palmer (30:03):
To me, that's the whole point of a book.
Mary Clavieres (30:05):
Yeah,
Jamie Palmer (30:07):
That's the whole point of a book. And I firmly believe that when we give it to, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the publishing industry that I'm not going to go on an off ramp around. However, I think this is part of a bigger collective problem. We, in so many areas, think, oh, the development editor, and this isn't a dig against development editors, right? I am certain, at some point in my writing career, I will use a development editor to help me make more sense of something. So this isn't a dig. And the thing that we need to remember is that a development editor has a certain way process that they want you to fit the book into, because it is a formula for how successful books are written. And so it's just another way to homogenize a book. So it's the same thing as in the online industry, here's the only way to have success. It's the same thing with a book. This is the successful process for having a bestselling book. It may or may not be. It may or may not be. I see so many other types of cool books that are wildly successful these days. So to me, that's a way where we are when we think about if we're writing books and we want people to be able to energetically feel our design, our aura, our true selves, and we give it to a developmental editor and they take all of us out.
(31:52):
We're just watering down who we are. And so for me, I'm really glad that you didn't go with a developmental editor, because I think when we think about a book, at least in my mind, the whole point of a book is to be able to give people an experience of you.
Mary Clavieres (32:07):
Yeah, exactly. No, I'm super happy with it too. But it was definitely something I had to process and reckon with and everything. So for anyone that's considering writing a book and has the doubt along the way, stay true to you.
Jamie Palmer (32:26):
Yeah. Did we get some mindset gremlins along the way in the process? I'm assuming we
Mary Clavieres (32:31):
Did. Yeah, for sure. Not when I was actually writing. That felt really easy to flow and everything. It was more as I entered the execution phase, and like I said earlier, taking action execution, that's usually pretty fine for me. But
Jamie Palmer (32:53):
That is true. You're very good at that.
Mary Clavieres (32:55):
Thank you. Yeah. But there were still some times where I did find myself hesitating, and I knew I was still going to do it to find identity. I dunno. But I knew and Gate too. I knew I was still going to do it. I just felt that I really wanted to do it. But there were definitely some points where I questioned my writing, I questioned the quality if it was going to be not help other people. I know what I'm saying is helpful to people out there, but more just also putting myself out there in a way. Then it's like, okay, this is written. So no.
Jamie Palmer (33:42):
Yeah, you don't really get to go back and edit it that frequently.
Mary Clavieres (33:46):
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it did show up, but I'm grateful that I worked through those things.
Jamie Palmer (33:57):
Yeah. Is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up today?
Mary Clavieres (34:10):
I'd say in true human design fashion, there's many ways to write the book. I shared my process where I didn't have as much structure maybe in the beginning, and maybe someone else needs more structure. So just to note that I shared my experience, and I think your listeners already know this anyway, but there's so many different ways to do it. And the most important part is to just keep checking in with yourself and having self-awareness of, am I at a point of a pause or am I stopping myself somehow? I think that's the biggest thing with any type of big project, any type of change that we navigate, it's easy to stop and question yourself. So just having the self-awareness
Jamie Palmer (35:03):
Is
Mary Clavieres (35:04):
Really helpful in the whole book process.
Jamie Palmer (35:10):
I love that. So where can the listeners get your book?
Mary Clavieres (35:16):
Yeah, so it's available on all the platforms like Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all those places. Mind Body Connection Unlocked is the title, but they can also go to my website and all the links are there. So mary clavier.com/book.
Jamie Palmer (35:30):
Perfect. We'll put those links in the show notes. Mary, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for coming on the and sharing all your wisdom and your book writing process. I super appreciate you coming on.
Mary Clavieres (35:45):
Thanks, Jamie. Thanks for having me and for sharing in this way, and I love your work, so you're amazing. Thank you for all of it.
Jamie Palmer (35:53):
You're welcome. Thank you for being here. All right, folks, that's what we got for you today on the HD Year Biz Show. So thank you all for tuning in, and we'll catch you on the next episode.
