How do we make friends once we’re adults? And how do we keep the ones that we really care about? Most of us haven’t been taught how to build or maintain friendships. As we become more isolated from people, we need to be intentional about our relationships if we want to have the connections we crave.
If you feel like your friendship circle is lacking, you're not alone. Research shows that in the last 30 years, the number of friends we have has decreased significiantly. About one-third of people in 1990 said they had over 10 good friends, but now only 13% of people do. The number of people reporting have no friends at all has increased in that time from 3 to 12%.
Friends make our lives better, so what can we do? In this episode I talk with Friendship Coach Lee Hopkins, who has made it his job to help people create the frienships they're seeking.
Coach Lee Hopkins is a transgender man, podcast host, and an expert in helping people facilitate authentic connection. He helps people spend time with people that are worth their time by teaching them skills to skip the small talk and speak from the heart.
Learn more about Coach Lee here:
www.patternsofpossibility.com
social media accounts: www.patternsofpossibility.com/contactme
To learn more about working with your host, Karin Calde, and download her free offer, Seven Signs of a Healthy Relationship, visit her website:
Episode Transcript
Podcast Intro:
This is Love Is Us, exploring relationships and how we connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in Clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing, the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to love is us.
Episode intro:
Welcome everyone. Today our topic is friendship and adulthood. You might know that the focus in my own work is on intimate relationships and our relationships with ourselves, but that's not the full relationship picture. Friendships are so good for us. The list of benefits of friendship is really, really long. Our friends provide needed companionship. They help relieve stress, increase our sense of belonging and purpose. They can help us learn about ourselves and push us to do better. Having friends not only improves our mental health, but our physical health as well, and can even help us live longer. And yes, intimate partnerships do provide us with a lot of these benefits as well. But putting all of that responsibility onto one person in your life is asking a lot of your partner. It's not really realistic to ask them to be everything to you. And if you experience a breakup, you're really going to want to have those friends around you. And yet it can be really hard to find and keep friends as adults, especially as we become more and more physically isolated from one another. Personally, I have found it challenging over the years to develop new friendships and really do the work that it takes to sustain them, because I've poured most of my energy into my family and romantic partnerships. But I'm working on it!
So that's where our guest for today comes in. So I'm going to be talking with Lee Hopkins, who is a friendship coach. He is warm, considerate, supportive. He's a good listener, likes to laugh. He models so much of what we want to have in a friend. We talk about some of the challenges that he has faced as a transgender man in making friends and the system that he's created to help people make the kinds of friends that allow them to be their authentic selves. I hope this episode gets you thinking about your friends. Do you feel like you have enough meaningful friendships in your life? Do you want more? What are the qualities that you really want your friends to have? And if you're thinking, well, I have my life partner and that's all I need, well, maybe you'll reconsider that.
On another note, for those who are in committed relationships, I wanted to let you know that I have a free offer on my website right now, seven Signs of a Healthy Relationship, which can serve as a guide to help you strengthen your relationship with your intimate partner. You can find it on my website. And that's drcalde.com, and I'll put it in the show notes.
I hope you like the show today, and I hope you'll leave me a review. Here we go!
Karin: Welcome, Lee.
[03:37] Coach Lee: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
[03:40] Karin: Well, great. Well, tell us where you are in the world.
[03:43] Coach Lee: I'm in Chicago, Illinois.
[03:45] Karin: Big city.
[03:47] Coach Lee: Big city living. Yes. I love it here.
[03:49] Karin: You do? How long have you been there?
[03:51] Coach Lee: I've been here for about eight years.
[03:53] Karin: Oh, so you have been there a while.
[03:56] Coach Lee: Yeah. It's the best place I've ever lived. Before then, I'd lived in Ohio and California. But I'm telling you, Chicago is much better just because there's so many things to love about. It so easy to get around the weather. And yes, I did say the weather, because I do appreciate hot and cold. If we get that lake effect, that compound lake effect and just dumps a couple of inches or feet on whatever it's feeling like doing, it'll dump it on us.
[04:24] Karin: Yeah. Well, what drew you there?
[04:27] Coach Lee: Well, I actually moved here because I had a job offer and I was really looking to be in a different place. So the job offer came at the right time. And so a city full of 8 million people I think it's 8 million, the Chicago land anyway, there's a lot more people than where I lived, and so I thought I'd have an opportunity to connect with other people as well. So when I was in California so I moved from California to Chicago. And the move when I lived in Chicago or when I lived in California, I was in a smaller area. I mean, it wasn't quite San Francisco, it wasn't quite La. It was a part of California that was a little smaller. Big city, but the modesto area, but smaller compared to Chicago. And there were limited things to do. So coming to Chicago, I just figured I'd find my tribe, I find my people here in Chicago, and it's really great experience. I did find a lot of nice people.
[05:30] Karin: Oh, that's great. Good for you.
[05:32] Coach Lee: Yeah.
[05:33] Karin: Well, tell us what you do for work.
[05:35] Coach Lee: I do for work I'm a social connections coach, and I help people make social connections. Like, if you're looking to connect with people at work, feel more included. Or if you're looking to find an activity buddy to hang out with on the weekends, or if you're looking for a deeper, more intimate social connection, it's strictly platonic connections that help people make those platonic connections.
[05:59] Karin: And it's such important work because it seems like as adults, we seem to struggle making adult friendships.
[06:12] Coach Lee: Yeah, we do. We struggle a lot because I don't think that we were taught to. So this is from my own experience and partly why I moved from Ohio to California to Chicago thinking that I'm going to find my tribe. I've heard this trope. I've heard it. Go out there, find your tribe, connect with people, be yourself. And I swear up and down I was doing those things. I was being myself. I was moving around trying to find my tribe, and I just couldn't find these people. So in Chicago, I had found some people that were kind and they were cool and everything, but they didn't know me. Know me. And that's when I realized that, well, I'm the problem. I don't know how to make friends. I don't know how to connect with people. And I realized that I'm not the only person who's having this issue. When I started to learn the skills of being authentic. And I believe that authenticity, being authentic is a skill that you have to learn. Or I could say that there are programmings or things that you have to unlearn so that you can be yourself. So no one teaches us how to be a friend. So we kind of just look to our left and look to our right like they taught us in school. Sit down next to you, there's your friend, there's your other friend, and you be friends. But when you're an adult, you find yourself sitting down at work and you look to your left and you're like, no thanks. You look to your right and you're like as if and then you're like, I don't know what to do. How do I make friends? I try and talk to them, but I don't. And so we get stuck. We get stuck.
[07:50] Karin: Yeah. And why doesn't being yourself work? Why is that not enough?
[07:58] Coach Lee: It's not enough. Well, being yourself, I think it's because we've been told that our self is not what we really think and feel. It's what other people really think and feel about us. So we say, go ahead and be yourself, but also fit in. And so those things just can't work the same. They don't work out that way. So being yourself, I think it requires you to really be in tune with what you're thinking and feeling. And a lot of us have been conditioned to turn that off. So when I think about being yourself, I think about being sharing your truth. And the truth is how you feel about things. And I know that's very general, but how you feel about your experiences is the truth. And you being able to express that is what really allows you to be yourself. And being yourself will allow you to connect with other people. So for a really great quick example, it's the things that bring you joy, the activities or whatever it is in your life that brings you joy. If you are in a group of people and you express your love of, let's say, Pokemon cards. You love those things. You want the shiny foiled ones. You spend hundreds of dollars on it because you're a big adult and you can spend money the way you want to because you like the things. So you go and share that with somebody and they make fun of you and you shrink and you say, well, I just joking, guys. I don't really like Pokemon. Inside, you are hurt. You are hurt. You want to be able to authentically express your feelings about your experiences. That's what connects you to people.
[09:43] Karin: So being yourself is really about being authentic. And we don't really realize that that's what we're really after. We're trying to live up to what we think we're supposed to be.
[09:57] Coach Lee: Yeah, exactly. That's what I've done my entire life is believed that I was supposed to be somewhere else or somebody else. And wherever I was, I didn't feel like I belonged. So full disclosure here. I'm trans. I'm a trans man. So female to male. And I go and I share that with people because it's important for people's reaction for people to know who I am and for me to know their reaction to it. If they don't like it, then I'm not going to try and change for them because I've tried things like that and it didn't work. For example, I connected with a coworker and they didn't know I was trans because really, you wouldn't be able to tell unless somebody asked. I mean, unless I told you for the most part. So I connected with this coworker, really great conversations, really cool guy. We talked for a couple of years. I met his wife, I met his kids, and we hung out. I went to his place and stuff. It was cool, right? I thought that I had a great friendship with him. But then I started dating as a trans man after a little bit after the pandemic. So I think 2021, I wanted to start dating people and I kept getting rejected. And I wanted to say I told my friend about it. Like, hey, I keep getting rejected. And all the coolness that he was, he was like he looked at me and he's like, dude, I don't know why, you're not that bad looking. Well, thank you.
[11:27] Karin: Wow, what a compliment!
[11:30] Coach Lee: Thank you, friend. But seriously, I was upset, but I couldn't tell him. I didn't tell him why he couldn't figure it out. He didn't know that the source of the real problem. And so I felt so lonely because I couldn't tell him. I felt like I couldn't tell him because it would ruin our friendship. But I didn't have the support that I needed from a close friend at the time that I needed it. I felt alone in that experience. And it's not that I want somebody to date me who doesn't want to. This is not me complaining about me being rejected. It's about me having feelings that I authentically want to share, and I'm not able to because I didn't create a relationship with them that allowed me to do that. So I was being inauthentic. And so after I realized that, I told them, I told them I'm trans. And this guy didn't flip out. He didn't do anything that was hurtful or painful or reject me or push me away or anything like that, but he was not capable of providing me with the support that I needed. And I honestly didn't know what I needed. I didn't know what I wanted him to say. But whatever he was saying just wasn't hitting it for me. It was just like, I still feel alone. So I share that story to say that I've spent two whole years pretending to be somebody I wasn't to this person.
[12:52] Karin: You were hiding a really important part of you.
[12:55] Coach Lee: Yeah, I was. And we do that. That's why we don't connect to the deep connection. We're afraid to be made fun of. We're afraid that we're going to be hurt. We're afraid. And trans is a big emotional experience, but I'm talking about we don't connect with people because we're afraid to share little things about our life that we enjoy. We're afraid of that. Just imagine. Yeah, right.
[13:22] Karin: So it can really be on a spectrum of things, little things and big things that we might hide. Right.
[13:30] Coach Lee: And it's just enough of those things. Just so many of them were just hiding, hiding, hiding, hiding. And we forget who we are. We can't be authentic in any space because we have to pretend to be this and have to pretend to be that.
[13:43] Karin: Right. So how do you help people get over that fear of sharing who they are?
[13:50] Coach Lee: Well, what I do is I really help them with my own experiences. That's like the key thing is to let them know that I have been there and I have been hurt and I've been afraid and I've been sad, and I've just been hiding a lot. And I realize that it's okay to be there first and foremost. Putting shame on top of it doesn't make it any better. So start with that and then empowering them with some tools to feel safe about talking to people. Understanding what it is that you want to talk about is step one. So if you've been hiding for so long, if you've been pretending to be somebody that you're not for such a long time, you forget what it is that's important to you. You forget why you like the thing. And I help bring that to the front of the mind. And we talk about things that are important, things that you like, past experiences, and then we go on from there. After we talk about the things that are important to us, we learn them. We learn how to share those with other people and bracing for rejection because it's going to happen, changing the mindset about rejection, because it's going to happen.
[15:05] Karin: Yeah. And so I'm sure that's really scary to people.
[15:09] Coach Lee: Yeah, it's scary. And I can share a very personal experience again around transgender, because it's such an easy thing to point out about my experience that I've been hiding. But there are little things that you out there may hide, and you're afraid that somebody's going to reject it. But I'll share this story with you. This is me on my journey in Chicago. I transitioned basically as soon as I got to Chicago. I transitioned from female to male. And maybe three years in, I was still feeling lonely, looking for friendships, trying to connect. And this point in time, I was in therapy, and I was learning about positive psychology, imagining the kind of friends you want to meet, looking on the bright side, being intentional about being in places where the friends are. And so I did this. I was like, one night I'm going to go to this place and I'm going to make friends. I went to a comedy club, and I said, I'm going to make a friend. I'm going to talk to somebody tonight. And during intermission, I talked to this guy. He's really cool. I think we had a 20 minutes conversation, and I was being mindful about me being trans, too. I wanted to lean the conversation towards that, to be open and authentic and share. So I leaned the conversation towards it, and they had said to me, I've never seen a trans person before. They said that to me because they didn't know. Great. I'm like, Well, I'm thinking I'm going to fill in a knowledge gap for them. I'm going to help them. They don't seem like they don't have any ill will. They just don't understand that's what they said. I just don't know. I don't know. Why would anyone ever want to do that? And so I thought, Well, I'll just fill in the blanks for him. And I do that. I like, hey, I'm trans. And his face just dropped. It's like he didn't say anything else at all. No other words. And he left the venue completely gone. That is rejection for sure. You revealing your truth like that, that is rejection. And I've healed from that, and I understand that. I'm really grateful that this person rejected me, because if he had said anything else, I'd been so lonely and so lost and so desperate to connect. If he had said anything else to me, I would have denied all the transness that I am. I would have said I'll never have to talk about it again. I just want to be friends. I think we're so cool. We've been talking for the last 20 minutes, but I didn't really want that. Deep down inside, I didn't really want that. And so I was grateful for the rejection. They just realized that I wasn't a good fit for him. At that time. And because he wasn't a good fit for me, he knew that I wasn't going to be a good fit for him. So just realizing that changing the mindset around rejection is really helpful. Not everybody's going to connect with you. Not everybody is entitled to know you deeply. Not everybody can handle you. So go find the people who really want to and who has the capacity to.
[18:21] Karin: Yeah. So he made it really clear, yes, this is not a friendship match.
[18:27] Coach Lee: This is nothing. I never want to see your face again. Oh, boy.
[18:31] Karin: And so how did you cope with that disappointment?
[18:35] Coach Lee: I cried, but I mean, yeah, I can laugh at it now, but I had a group therapy session and we talked about it a little bit, but I was devastated by that, and it took some time to heal from it. But I come to this conclusion. I always look back at it as if, do you ever want to be like that again? Do you ever want to feel like you have to change to be with somebody? And so I learned that I really like to just spend some time alone because I like my own company. I do, I enjoy things that I do. I found more hobbies. I found learning. Like, I really enjoy board games, and of course, many board games have to go out and hang out with people, but doing puzzles, things like that. I'm studying Japanese, just doing things that enrich me. It feels really good to do that rather than be in the presence of somebody whose thoughts and opinions feel really negative or they feel hurtful to me or I'm not able to express myself. I don't ever want to be in a space like that. So I learned that rejection is really important and key.
[19:47] Karin: And I want to back up just a little bit because I think you said something really important, and that is that while you were doing this and while you were taking these risks, you had a group where you could get some support. And I think that especially for those who are really kind of embarking on this friendship journey, maybe for the first time, really taking risks for the first time, that can be really helpful to have someone in your corner that's going to be there to support you.
[20:17] Coach Lee: Oh yeah. I don't think that I wouldn't have been able to do this without other people. One of the big things about being with a group is that they're able to see things you're not. Of course, they're able to help you understand a different point of view. And if you're in a group of people and you trust them, you're going to take their word for it. So what I really believe what works is having other people reflect back their version of reality to you and you being able to step outside of what you believe. All the emotions that's clouded up in it and see somebody else's point of view to help you be calm, to help you forgive, to help you understand. So I really needed that group and I think the power of other somebody else now, just thinking about this, I look back on at the group leader. What they did for me was really helpful because they would demonstrate that they understand my view of reality before they offered me anything else. They were like, yeah, okay, I see where you're coming from. All your feelings right. Demonstrated that they understood me. And then they offered me something else when I felt less alone, because they demonstrated that they understood my sadness, my frustration, my fears. I didn't feel like I was alone. When they started to paint the new reality for me, when they started to tell me from their point of view and from their point of view, I could see, oh, it was really magical. And so I think that's what I do as a coach. I really help you not sit there alone in this experience.
[21:58] Karin: Yeah. So you felt, heard you felt like validated for your experience, which made it much easier for you to then hear what they had to say and take that feedback.
[22:13] Coach Lee: Absolutely. Nailed it. Exactly it.
[22:16] Karin: Yeah. Okay, great. So you have a concept called JIST. What does that mean and why is that important?
[22:28] Coach Lee: Well, the JIST is super important, and it is my framework that I use to help us start talking to people because we're afraid that we're going to get hurt. So I think that people, the number one reason why people don't want to talk about what's important to them is because they don't trust what other people are going to do with the information. People say, number one, I don't trust them. I can't trust anybody. How can I trust trust? I believe that we forget the rest of the sentence when it comes to trust. We say, I can't trust them. Well, you can't trust that they have your best interest in mind. That's what people mean when they say, I can't trust. I don't trust that this person has my best interest in mind. Well, of course not. Nobody has your best interest in mind. Only you. Only you cares that much about you. Everybody else is thinking about themselves. And as soon as you realize that, the easier it's going to be. So there are some people who do align with your values. You have to be able to notice who those people are and how they show up. And so what I do is offer the JIST method, which is the JIST method to help you understand who can be trusted or who can you trust that has your best interest in mind. So it stands for joyful, important, secure, and truthful. And what we do is we offer a story, a piece of us, something to this person, to a new person, whether they can be a new person or someone that you've known for a long time, you want to deepen your connection with them. But the JIST story is a story joyful, important, secure, and truthful. It's a story that contains all of those components that will help you recognize if this person is safe enough to share any more information with. So you kind of skip past the small talk and start getting right into it. So what the JIST story is going to do is going to prompt them to respond to you, and based on their response, you make a decision on whether you want to keep them or you want to swipe left. Yeah.
[24:46] Karin: Okay. So it helps you to kind of test the waters a little bit.
[24:49] Coach Lee: Yeah, absolutely.
[24:52] Karin: Can you give me an example of a JIST story? So a story that has all those different components?
[24:59] Coach Lee: Yeah, a JIST story that's joyful, important, you're secure about, and it's the truth. So I talked about the story, but the guy at the comedy club, it was a joyful is important, and I was secure, and it was truthful. So the important thing about the JIST storytelling method is that it's joyful. Right. But it's joyful to me because I had already gone through it. It was an experience. And what you're doing when you share that story is you're testing to see if they notice what's important or what's joyful to you. What's joyful to you? So you want to share that joy and see how they're going to respond to that joy, if they're going to be upset with it, if they're going to shame you, or if they're going to say shoulda, coulda, woulda, which is something that, Karen, you did not do. Which gives me notice that I can probably talk a little more with you because you can handle my emotions. You're not getting upset about the story. You're noticing what I'm noticing. You're noticing my feelings, and you're in tune to those. So you want to share stories like that. It's important to me, too, because it has shaped the way I look at rejection. And that's a pretty deep story because I've already connected with you. But it's important to me. It has shaped the way I do something, and I'm secure in it because I feel comfortable with talking about that experience in my life. And then it's truthful. Demonstrate trustworthiness by telling the truth. A lot of people want people to tell the truth to them, but they don't want to tell the truth themselves. Start off by doing all of those things and see how another person respond to you.
[26:31] Karin: That's a great framework.
[26:33] Coach Lee: Yeah. And I know these stories don't really roll off the tongue. That's why I have 50 journal prompts that helps you really connect with yourself and learn, because you have to ask and inquire within you to ask yourself these questions, like, what's important to me? What were some of the activities that I did, why did I do this, and things like that. It's really important to be able to think about them off the top of your head. So if you're asked randomly or if you approach someone randomly, you can tell them the story of who you are and see how they're going to respond. Don't just do small talk, right?
[27:10] Karin: So these journal prompts that you have, they help you kind of self reflect and figure out what's important to you and also have this bank of stories or this information that you can easily pull from if you're in a social situation and you're not just stuck.
[27:35] Coach Lee: Just like that.
[27:37] Karin: It's been there. I know that feeling.
[27:40] Coach Lee: Exactly. And it's a bonus because you're also kind of entertaining as well. People love stories, and if you're willing to open up and share, you're going to get people who are interested in you authentically.
[27:52] Karin: Yeah, that's great. So what are some red flags that you already said a little bit about how if they don't respond well to your Gist story, are there some other red flags that can tell a person, you know, this is not a really good friendship match?
[28:15] Coach Lee: Oh, yeah. If they're not responding well, let me just clear that up a little bit and be specific with it because I think when responding well, it's your gut feeling. But if somebody's going to shame what you say, somebody's going to shame you or blame you or tell you that what you do is insignificant or they are going to compare you to somebody else, then those are definite red flags. Don't want to connect to those people, especially if you're sharing a Gist story. What's powerful about the gist story is that you're sharing something joyful. And so you're going to check and see if they can handle your joy. But it's likely how they treat your joy is how they're going to treat your other emotions as well. So if you're sharing something joyful and they crap all over it, well, can you imagine what they're going to do when you're sad, when you're afraid they're going to do the same thing with those more tender emotions. So really watch out for that one. And then if you're not interacting with a person, if you're just observing them like you haven't interacted and you're like, maybe I should talk to them, I shouldn't. Red flag is if they're talking about other people all of the time, they're talking about people all the time, just somebody else. If they cannot talk about themselves, it's going to be hard to connect with them because perhaps they don't know themselves and they can't authentically connect. It's going to be difficult for you to get an opinion or focus on anything that's important to you. And then there are people who may be wishy washy. They perhaps will say both they don't have a strong opinion one way or another. And as polarizing as. Some people are, we really do like you to be certain about how you feel about things or your expression. And so if you're always like, well, what do you want to do, buddy? I don't know. Whatever you want to do. No, well, I would rather honestly, I'd rather go to a movie with somebody who was really interested in the movie than somebody who was like, I don't know. Because after we leave the movie, after we leave the Marvel movie or whatever, one you're really excited about, I'm going to be so excited about it. I'm going to be like, yeah, did you see the fist with the fist? Did you see the Thanos? Did he snap? Oh my God. And the other person is going to be like, yes, I just spent 2 hours with you. I was excited. Not just about the experience, but it's about connecting after the experience, how you feel about the experience after. And if they're not willing to show you anything about their real feelings, then it's going to be difficult for you to connect. So I'd say red Flag.
[30:58] Karin: That's great. One of the questions that comes to mind is the tendency that some people have to overshare.
[31:08] Coach Lee: Oh, yeah.
[31:12] Karin: So it sounds like the Gist method can really help with that. But what do you have to say about those who overshare?
[31:21] Coach Lee: Oversharing is it happens, and I think in two forms. It happens when we share too much information at once. So it's just a bunch of word vomit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And nothing of much substance. I feel like that's oversharing. And also there's this emotional component to it. A different kind of oversharing to me is that you share something that's really deeply, emotionally, and it's not joyful. It's not necessarily joyful. It's more unprocessed fear or anger or sadness. And it's really heavy. And what you're doing when you overshare in the emotional way is that you're taking this really heavy weight and you're handing it to somebody who probably doesn't have the capacity to hold it, doesn't care to. It's like, here you're throwing this heavy thing at them and expecting them to catch it and want to stay engaged with you. They're going to drop that and that they're going to be hurt, dropped on their foot. Oops, they weren't expecting that. Ouch. But also, you can also get hurt by doing that too, because you want somebody to be there for you. The load is heavy and you're tired of carrying it. And you're just like, here somebody, anybody. And you was just hoping that they would carry that with you. And it's your weight, it drops, you drop. And emotionally you feel hurt because you trusted somebody who just didn't demonstrate that they had your best interest in mind before you handed us something heavy and told them heavy and precious and told them to take care of it. So when you're over sharing like that. I think it's really important to write it down. I understand that you need to get it out of your body. Get it out something. Get it out. Get it out somewhere. But not to another person.
[33:18] Karin: Unless it's a therapist or a coach. Right. Yes.
[33:22] Coach Lee: There we go.
[33:23] Karin: Or someone that you're in a deep, committed relationship to that is very trusted and you can be really vulnerable and knows you well and loves you and all those things.
[33:34] Coach Lee: Exactly. Thank you for that, because I was thinking just about a random stranger. But definitely you need to get that out to a person is more ideal than writing it down.
[33:43] Karin: Right, yeah. And yet writing it down can be an incredibly powerful way to process grief and trauma absolutely. From research that that's really a great method, too. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
[33:58] Coach Lee: Yeah. And so what I'd recommend is make it less heavy. Do something to make it less heavy before you share it with somebody. That's the thing. And if you're talking at a mile a minute and you're sharing, sharing, sharing, I'd like you to recognize that the purpose of communication is for both of you to understand what's being said. And if you share so much that the person cannot understand, you're going to feel incomplete and frustrated because they didn't understand you, but they want to. Perhaps if you just perhaps slow down, take an opportunity to check in because it's a connection. Check in. Did you get what I said? Let me repeat it back to you. If I didn't, I'll slow down. What is it? Check in. It's two way.
[34:45] Karin: Yeah. Listening. Listening piece of communication that's so important that so many people seem to skip over. I mean, that's one of the biggest turn offs when I go out and spend some time with someone for the first time, and if the entire time they talk about themselves, there's not going to be a second outing. I'm happy to learn about you, but I want to know that this friendship is going to be a two way friendship.
[35:18] Coach Lee: Absolutely. You have to be able to listen and also share.
[35:25] Karin: Yeah. What can you say about boundaries and friendships and healthy boundaries that we all need in order to help our friendships thrive?
[35:36] Coach Lee: Oh, boundaries. Oh, yeah. I love boundaries because it relates to authenticity. And the way I teach boundaries is that I imagine that it's a sheet of paper. And this sheet of paper, if you can imagine, is everything you've ever known. All the stuff, all the stuff that you've ever known. And somewhere in that, all the stuff is you and you, me, everybody else were there. But what separates us, what distinguishes you rather, is boundary. It's a line, a drawing of who you are. Like, just imagine a little gingerbread drawing, gingerbread man drawing. But that's you. That's who you are. But you wouldn't know that unless you had boundaries. You wouldn't know who you are. So I'd like to say that boundaries are the shape of you. They create you and they're forged in your own personal experiences. You have experiences that you like, oh, I like that. I may continue to do that because I enjoy it. Or you don't like you may never want to do that again. So you don't like it. You won't. But you have to be able to know what it is, specific actions and behaviors that they are, and be able to articulate them enough to share with another person so that they also know your boundaries. So your boundaries are spoken and defined. So I really enjoy having boundaries. I let people know what they are to the best of my abilities because I'm not perfect. And we all create new boundaries every single day. They shift. They're not steady, they're not rock solid, but they shift and they change. But the idea is that you need to have the shape of you. You need to have authenticity. You need to know who you are so that you can share with another person, so that they're not constantly stepping on this boundary. It takes you being aware of what you want too, so that you can articulate that. But if you don't know, if you don't know what you feel, if you know what your thoughts are, you don't have the language to put into action, you're going to feel alone. You're going to feel hurt and betrayed and afraid because people are going to step on these boundaries that you can't articulate.
[37:42] Karin: Yeah, and they are so important. So can you give some examples of some healthy boundaries that either you have or, you know, a lot of other people have and can articulate?
[37:56] Coach Lee: Oh, yeah. So some boundaries a lot of us will be I'm going to give you an example of what boundaries don't sound like. They sound like, but they are not real boundaries. How about that? I want to be treated with respect. That's my boundary. I need respect in my life. And that's a poor boundary. I say it's a poor boundary because it gives no action to which is the respect. And it doesn't declare in what situation either. So respect is going to look different between your friends and your parents. It's going to look different between your church members and your workplace. It's just going to look different. So respect in those different places need to be defined. What is respect with specific actions and behaviors. So my parents can show me respect by not calling me when I set a curfew. So that's a boundary. But it is something actions that people can do, something that you want. My friends can show me respect by insert action, action behavior. So maybe cheering me on or when I present something that I really like to them, perhaps that's respect to you. But if you just believe that respect is the same for you, as it is. For me, we're going to have difficulty because respect is different. For me, the way I show respect is going to be different than what you believe respect is. And if you don't know what it is and aren't able to give me direction, it makes it really difficult for us to connect. And you may get mad at me because I didn't show you respect when I thought I had. And there's confusion and there's a fight. Right. There an argument, disconnection.
[39:51] Karin: So boundaries really need to be clear.
[39:55] Coach Lee: They really do. And it's an experience, too. It's an experience that you go through. You want clear boundaries. And you also have to know what's really important about boundaries is that they're not rules for other people. They're just statements of your desires and actions from other people. You cannot make somebody do something. What you do with these boundaries that you say that this is what you want and this is how you will behave when the boundary is hit, and then you can't change them. So you respond accordingly. You respond however you desire. If you like what they do, then.
[40:35] Karin: Yeah, it's about respecting yourself and it's about respecting the relationship. When we have boundaries and we're clear about them, then that helps us continue being in a good relationship, right?
[40:48] Coach Lee: Absolutely. That's one of the things that really comes with poor boundaries, is toxicity. This idea that I can change this other person, I can change my friend. I just want to change you because you're not what I want. I want you to act this way. So why didn't you act this way? That becomes toxic the moment you want to change somebody's behavior. I believe that's a toxic friendship relationship. You can't change people questioning yourself, why don't they do this for me? Well, they don't have your best interest in mind. So you have to go find those people who have your best interest in mind. It's just very scary to want to let go or to have to let go of somebody who isn't treating you the way you want to. So we stay.
[41:34] Karin: I think a lot of people have. They think it's this thing against the other person. They're trying to punish the other person when it's really not what the intention behind it is.
[41:48] Coach Lee: Absolutely.
[41:50] Karin: So how does one respectfully end a friendship? Because sometimes friendships don't work out over time for one reason or another.
[42:05] Coach Lee: Yeah, so they don't work out. And I've been in friendships where I've been canned, and I think of canned as in I've been turned upside down and dropped in a trash can, been rejected so harshly. And I've also been the person that has rejected and being on that side, this idea of being respectful. I want to say that respect is to yourself, that respect is just for you, and you cannot control how other people are going to behave. There's no need to be rude. There's no need to be unkind about it. This is what I believe when you say respectfully, there's no need to be unkind or hurtful or derogatory towards them. What you want to do is turn inward and think about what you're getting out of your friendship. So I think if you're going to be respectful about it, you're going to talk about the actions and behaviors that you've witnessed and how you feel about those actions and behaviors and what you will do in response to them, which is leave the friendship. So what you can do is just share. This happened. We were talking behind my back. I feel really hurt, and it doesn't seem like you have my best interest in mind, because as a friend, and you probably told them many times, this hurts me. I don't want to be around somebody who hurts me. And that's it. And if they badger you and they say, why I'll change, it's up to you to decide to believe them and continue on. But if they don't change and you continue to stay, that's not respect for yourself. That's not respect for yourself. So I think talking about concrete things that have happened, not he said, she said, but what you've witnessed and how you felt about what you witnessed to them, sharing that with them, perhaps it will give them a new insight, because they really lost you. They really let go. So that's what you can do.
[44:17] Karin: Okay, great. Yeah, it's a tough one. I definitely ended some friendships that I felt were either very one sided or really violated too many boundaries. But I've always, you know, carried that guilt around it, even though I knew I needed to do this for myself, for my own mental health and well being. But it can be tough.
[44:45] Coach Lee: Absolutely. Because we're just so helpful people. I think naturally, humans want to be helpful and connected and close with others. And you may have known them for several years, because I'm going through this experience too. You may know them for several years, and they just don't deliver the kind of friendships that you want. And it could be because you've changed. It could be because you changed, or they have changed and the life cycle of your relationship has ended, and it's hard to face.
[45:16] Karin: Yeah, absolutely. What role does love play in the work that you do?
[45:25] Coach Lee: Love? Oh, yeah. Love. So I talked about being strictly platonic, but love is not a sexual nature thing to me. I don't believe it is. It's really understanding. What I believe love is is understanding the other person and demonstrating that you understand them. So their thoughts, their feelings, their ideas, you want to be able to understand what they are and reflect that back to them. Demonstrate that you understand them. Don't just say, I get it. I get it. Okay. I get it. They don't know that you got it. You have to demonstrate that you understand in a way that they can understand. And so I think that's love right there is the demonstration of understanding of your experiences with each other. And what I help people do is get the tools to do that.
[46:18] Karin: Yeah, great. And how can people learn more about you and your work?
[46:26] Coach Lee: Well, yeah, you can check me out at Patterns of Possibility. I have workshops and I have a monthly seminar, circle…. It's like a Summit series, man, all these things are I don't know why I did this to myself, but I named it with so many s sounds, alliteration like it sounds so good, but it's so hard for me to say. But it's a social Circle Summit Series. So monthly series in which we talk about these big, deep ideas that we need for our friendships. So a lot of us are disconnected, and we need friends to support us. We are going to need friends to support us in these big life events. And we may have friends that are around, but they're not capable of handling these big life events, like perhaps the death of a loved one or divorce or power change and structure if you move or anything like that. We need people in our lives for those things. So I organize monthly events. They're all free. Come check them out to discuss what those events are so you can see a solution before you actually hit a problem. Because it's inevitable that we're going to lose something or someone that we care about, and we're going to need support for that.
[47:47] Karin: Right?
[47:47] Coach Lee: So, yeah, you can find me at Patterns of Possibility. All those are patterns of possibility. And on social media at Patterns of Possibility.
[47:55] Karin: Wonderful. Well, before we close, is there anything else that you want our listeners to know?
[48:01] Coach Lee: Oh, I think that you're amazing, Karin. I think you're amazing, and I'm so grateful to be here. I'm so glad to be on this platform to talk to you. So I want to say you first. I really am grateful to be here and have this conversation with you was everything that I wanted before and to the listeners out there, the same. You were awesome, and you can do whatever you put your mind to. You are not alone in your experience. You just haven't met the person who has your best interest in mind.
[48:32] Karin: Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I really appreciate it.
[48:36] Coach Lee: Thank you.
[48:38] Karin: Thanks for joining us. Today on Love Is Us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm the Love and Connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be loved is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.
