Amy Davies, CEO of HR tech and training firm First30 and author of “A Spark in the Dark” is a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten her start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers and Mars/Wrigley.
With her experiences personally and professionally, and armed with knowledge derived from Robert D Hare and other researchers, Amy is spreading awareness on the inconspicuous psychopaths that are found in the workplace.
In this episode we dive into the three types of psychopaths, the best ways to protect yourself, how to identify them and more. Hang on tight, because the "blood hungry" psychopaths aren't the only dangerous ones. Prep your ears for an honest and thought-provoking conversation on the psychopaths found in corporate!
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Script:
When you feel too good around someone or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly?
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with Amy Davies. Amy, say hello.
Hello. Great to be here.
Very happy for you to be here. Amy is the CEO of First30, the author of A Spark in the Dark. She's a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten a start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers, and Mars Wrigley. Amy also has a new book coming out soon called What Employees Want, Proven Strategies to Attract, Retain, and Engage Talent. And she's the proud owner of a beautiful Doberman named Riker.
Yes. And as I was telling you, that is the most important role that I play in life. I'm really his servant. That's basically how it works. Dobermans are beautiful creatures.
Oh,'re very nice very nice how old is Riker tell me more
Yeah well he's three and a half and for any of your Star Trek fans out there I'm a big Star Trek fan I maybe will hold back from calling myself a Trekkie but I do I am a bit obsessed and there is a character William Riker in Star Trek and so and he's universally liked and a very compelling character and he's the second in command so he's considered number one to Jean-Luc Picard so that's why right that's where Riker's name comes from.
Sorry, I'm nerding out now, but I can't. So do you see like, like cosplaying in your future with this? I don't, you know, I don't get too into it. It's actually something my son and I, we got into watching Star Trek together and I find there's so many lessons for kids to learn about compassion, about different societies and acceptance. And there's a lot of moral, great moral lessons in that show. And I think when you only see it from the perspective that it's about like weird aliens, we get a totally different view, but there's a very, there's is so ahead of its time as well it's so so interesting so highly recommend i never really watched the series but i loved the movies when i was a kid star trek movies like next generation or i can't remember there's a few of them but yeah yeah anyways i'm not a big trekkie myself but if you ever get into it, we'll talk.
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I guess we will, I'm sure. Okay, so we are on a podcast. This podcast is called Weirdos in the Workplace. So before we kick things off, I'd love to know, Amy, you know, is have you ever felt like a weirdo or a rebel, or just not quite fitting in at some point in your life? And tell me about that.
Well, one of the reasons that I started my own business and always knew that I was kind of designed to start my own business was that I never felt like I could just go tow the company line. That was just never me. I never enjoyed being part of an in group where there was people that were in and then there was people that were out. And I could never go along with a company strategy just because the company said this is our strategy. Even if I could put a smile on my face and move forward, I really struggled with it internally when I wasn't bought in to what the decisions the business was making. And the biggest thing for me is that I found and wrote a great book about this called Think, Do, Say. And, you know, companies saying a lot of things that I knew from the inside that they weren't actually doing. So I never felt like I fit in to companies, even though I really liked the people I worked with, I really enjoyed it. But I kind of had an entire career where I always felt like a little bit of an outsider. And much like HR, it's your job to put the third party hat on. I had a role in businesses that required that I was almost I had to be objective in my role. So I actually had permission to sit a little outside and comment on what was going on inside. And that felt very comfortable for me.
So yeah, to answer your question, basically my whole career, I felt like even though I presented like an insider, and I'm sure many of us go through that, we are saying all the right things and we're smiling and nodding, but inside we're feeling dramatically different. What led you? Was there like a moment or a culmination of moments that led you to starting your own business? Well, I worked for another entrepreneur fairly early on in my career. We had a complicated relationship, but I really did admire aspects of his business, of his business acumen. And I learned so much from him. And I did really well at the company. And it was the first time I realized that I can do this, like I could actually, I'm not a salesperson by, you know, the traditional view of what a salesperson is. But I realized that I was really good at building relationships. And I got him a ton of new clients. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if I can make him all this money, certainly I could do this for myself one day. And that started me off on the path of becoming an entrepreneur. So while I say we had a complicated relationship, I really appreciate what he taught me. I learned so much from him. And so I am very grateful for that experience. But it is and I'm learning now as a business owner, how difficult it is to run a business. So I can empathize more with what he was going through when I worked for him on in the very early stages of building his business. Yeah. And I know we've both worked for like inspirational bosses, we've both had, you know, not so inspirational bosses, probably or people that we've worked with or people we've, you know, friends who've worked with people, you know, and, and that kind of leads us to, I think our topic. Great segue. Great segue.
Just for the folks listening, you know, Amy and I had a chat probably what it was like a few weeks ago maybe a month ago um and you know talking about like what are we going to talk about on the podcast and amy brought to me this idea of you know something that was a little bit different and i thought it was amazing and all amy i'd like to like what how did this you you thought i would want to talk about my something to do with my actual products and services but no I suggested we discuss this book called Without Conscience and it's called Without Conscience the Disturbing World of Psychopaths Who Live Among Us or the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D. Hare. And he's actually a Canadian. And he's a world-renowned criminal psychologist who is a member of the Order of Canada.
He created the psychopathy checklist, which is widely used in the criminal and judicial system in more countries than just Canada. So for once, we have the leading thinker in a space. And so my life has been touched by a psychopath. And I think most people's lives have, I believe, I'm going to say I believe that I lived with a psychopath for eight years of my adult life. And when I moved away from that situation, I really felt strongly that I had something went terribly wrong. It was an awful situation. And I thought, how can I protect myself? And I think like many of the people who are your listeners, they've had an experience where they've worked with someone, maybe it's someone in their personal life, but maybe they've worked in a place, and I've had this experience too, sadly, where they feel that they are dealing with someone they can't reason with, who acts out in anger, who treats them really poorly, no matter how they change their behavior, that person stays the same. And I, and I think that my intent with this, having this conversation today, is that I want to do what Dr. Hare is aiming to do. And that's to spread awareness about psychopaths, because I find I present I do corporate talks as well. And I'll talk about psychopaths during these talks and what I've learned from dr hair and there's always giggles in the room always and i want us to get to a point where it doesn't feel like someone getting up there talking about extraterrestrials uh it's about someone getting up there talking about a real problem dr hair and there have been estimates that are higher um but he talks about maybe 1% of the North American population being non murderous psychopaths. But there are estimates that raise it to about four to 5%, with five to 15%, showing some like who are borderline. And so this these are people are murderers. Is that what you're saying?
No borderline psychopaths. Okay, gotcha. We can get into it in more detail. But the way to think about it is that there's a very small percentage of psychopaths who are actually blood hungry, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. That's often the visualization we have of these people or the people like, Dr. Hare talks about it a lot in his book, Hannibal Lecter, right? I wish that what we could do is take all of these, like, especially in the media, they create these monstrosities of people, these evil geniuses who are murderous and compelling, remove that from your mind. That is not the reality. These people, when you dig under the surface, are very, very base people. They're very boring if you remove all the bells and whistles. But I do think that we have to realize that this person is someone we might get on the elevator with every day. There's someone we'll like bump into at the grocery store. We might meet them on a Tinder date, right? So we have to be very careful. And there are ways that we can protect ourselves from these people as well that I think will be really important to talk about today. But I thought it would be helpful to talk about today. But I want I thought it would be helpful to talk about how Robert Hare defined psychopaths, but also what their brain activity looks like, because this is not just a airy, there's nothing airy fairy about it. It's grounded in research and science. And so I thought it would be helpful to maybe pull out a quote from his book, if that's okay.
Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving selfishly take what they want, and do as they please, violating social norms, and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. So that's how he talks about what a psychopath is. It's important for us to recognize, though, they've done tests on the minds of people who are psychopaths. And what they find from a neurological perspective, is that the for our brains, we have the amygdala and that lights up when exciting things happen. And we you know, we get it's our kind of reaction to rewards. But in a psychopath, this lights up far more strongly in response to reward stimulus. Oh, interesting. Yes, but there's more. There's the prefrontal cortex, and this is responsible for empathy, the regulation of our emotion, emotions promoting pro-social behavior. And there is reduced connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala in people who are psychopaths. So your rewards are going crazy and the lighting up and not connecting as well with the prefrontal cortex. There was some really interesting brain science that he included in that book, actually around like the left and right brain and how they regulate emotions as well.
That was, I thought, very fascinating. I would highly recommend folks to read this book if you're finding this conversation interesting right now, because you'll see that it goes so, so deep. It's just like Alice going right down that rabbit hole right um and storytelling that he he produces as well so many stories about psychopaths and many stories about psychopaths in the workplace which I found really interesting um it was written oh sorry about that oh go ahead yeah it was written in a time before trigger warnings but I want to put a trigger warning, like huge red flag. It was a really hard book to read. And I have a headache right now. And I think it's because I spent the weekend finishing my research for this podcast. And it's, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. Like when I first started listening to the audiobook, because I'm not going to lie. Like when I, when I first started listening to the audio book, cause I'm an audio book girl, I was like, what did I do? This is, it was really hard. It was hard to read. And it's especially hard to think all of us have a little bit of trauma probably going on, you know, and it is a little bit triggering, but if you can push past it, you know, really, really worthwhile. Yeah, it is worthwhile, because being aware is your first line of defense. And, and I'll give you the example, okay, because these are people who are, they mimic the behavior that gets them what they want, even though they don't really understand. And it's described in the book, I don't know if you remember this, and correct me if I'm getting the quote wrong. But they know the words, not the music.
Yes. And so they're learning over time. And that's why they're able to be so charismatic and charming at the beginning. And they do. And so what I do now, is if you are engaged with a new person in a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself, you go into a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself. You go into a workplace and there's someone that's super helpful. Not everyone that's very helpful is going to be a psychopath. And so we have to be careful. But it's that person who's like, if you have any issues, I'm the person to come to. I'm going to help you out. Don't, you know, don't get too close to so and so because they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? don't you know don't get too close to so-and-so because they're blah blah blah blah right so this is the person who and they make oh wow i your experience is just incredible someone i know knows you and they said this and and you start feeling really connected with this person they're flattering you they're love bombing you they're being your support system they're telling you like little secrets about what's going on to help you understand your colleagues.
They are doing exactly that. They're love bombing, right? So when you feel too good around someone, or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly? It's so hard. Yeah. Like, like, I'm like, I kind of do all of those things, you know, but I'm, I'm definitely not a psychopath. Like, after reading the book, I'm like, I can definitely self diagnose myself as certainly not a psychopath. Thank God. But yeah, you and I met, I felt really good when we met and I uh you and I spoke but I never felt like you were coming on too strong you were like let's do this let's get on to yeah right but I never felt like you were trying to skip phases in our friendship right you know I didn't feel like you all of a sudden wanted to be my best friend. And when we look at romantic relationships, and I know we're here to talk about the workplace today, but I think it's important also, since we're on the topic to talk about this. Imagine in a romantic relationship, there's a really great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. And they are I can't actually I might have that title wrong. So I might come back to that. Women Yes, it's called Women Who Love Psychopaths is by Sandra Brown. And she explains that what psychopaths do when they're entering a new relationship is they throw out an empathy hook. And by what I mean by that, and what she means by that, more importantly, is they are testing you to see if you're the type of person they can manipulate. And I was this person. And this is what I learned from researching all of this in the workplace. And I was the fixer. I was the mother. I was the person you could go to. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, that person did that to you. I'm so sorry. Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, person did that to you. I'm so sorry.
Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, why did that? Why do you think that person said that to you is, you know, sounds like you might have been blah, blah, blah, right? I was not that person. You weren't the skeptic. The psychopath does not want a skeptic, right? And so I was that nurturer and that, you know, helper, and I thought I could change everybody. And that is why I used to say to my friends, I'm like, I drive men crazy. But it wasn't that at all. I was just psychopaths just loved me because, from what I can tell, just because I was that person, and I was falling for all of those empathy hooks, right? And so we want to be careful that we're asking those questions of people, or even to ourselves in a workplace, let's say, if they're talking about a lot of conflict all the time, and talking about how they're the victim, because psychopaths are always the victim, they're never at fault in their minds. So we have to really start asking ourselves, why are, why is there so much issues with this person? Why do they seem to have an issue with everyone, right? Well, and, you know, especially in the workplace today, when being vulnerable is so valued now, I think more than it has been before. That, you know, we have to buffer ourselves with some kind of armor against, you know, being taken advantage of, right? Yeah, I think it's amazing that you're that kind of person, right? That I think that you, you know, that you're, you're so generous and loving and wanting to protect people and, you know, wanting to, you know, to give yourself.
And it really sucks that there are people out there that take advantage of them. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was it something like 20% up to 20% of CEOs, or there was a very high percentage that I'm recalling of, of leadership, people in leadership positions positions i don't know if it was 20 i never know how accurate those stats are because how would they actually know who is this i mean based maybe on their behavior but i would even think that dr hair would say it's impossible to give an estimate but what he what he does say and what is widely known is they're attracted if there's a well they're attracted it's like a drinking hole, they're attracted to it, right? So if there's a way, if investment banking is a great way to, white collar crime is huge among psychopaths because they, you know, look at Bernie Madoff. I've never diagnosed him myself, nor could I, nor am I qualified to, but I'm sure there's widely held beliefs that he is a psychopath. Politics attracts psychopaths because now they can control lawyers. And it's still going to always be a very small percentage.
So I don't want to cast any shade on these professions. But these are people that like power and control the military, police. Right. like power and control, the military, police, right? So if we think of those types of areas where they can be seen as important, have power and walk away with a big wad of cash all at the same time, that is what they're attracted to. Yeah, and these are the successful psychopaths that he talks about. Yeah, so these are folks that, you know, are living fairly normal lives um probably only being like the only checks and balances that they have in terms of regulating their behavior is um you know the transparency of situations and you know the i mean the law they probably try to get away with whatever they can really but right yes and you're absolutely right to bring that up as like quote unquote, successful psychopaths, because of course they, there's many of them in the criminal justice system as well that aren't succeeding, but these might be your cousin or even your brother or sister. Often it's uncovered when there's financial issues. So if there's an inheritance, suddenly the psychopath and the person is unmasked, even if they've kept it under wraps a little bit until that time. So you see when people's backs up or up against the wall. I thought it might be helpful to talk about the different types of psychopaths and their behavior in the workplace.
This is based on a book that was co authored by Dr. Hare, called snakes in suits, and another person called named Paul Babiak. So if you're okay with that, I might jump into the different types of psychopaths in the workplace, because what I hope people think is like, oh, my gosh, I know this person. And now they'll know that they kind of have to protect themselves. Because what I like I said, I've included this information in some talks that I give. And I find that people do the normal giggle when I start talking about it. And I talk about some of the characteristics of a psychopath, some of their behaviors and the implications. And all of a sudden, it gets very quiet in the room, and you can hear a pin drop. And after my presentation, people will gingerly come up to me and say, I think I worked with someone like this, or I think this person might be. And I even had a woman call me, I don't even know how she got my phone number, bawling a week after a presentation that she had colleagues that were harassing her, and she felt they fit into this profile as well. So the different types of psychopaths that you'll encounter in the workplace, as described in Snakes in Suits, the con, and they use their voice to manipulate you.
They're really great at storytelling. They mix falsehoods with truth um and they get people to do what they want kind of by tricking them and conning them um and then there's the bully i don't know if you you don't have to share i don't know if you ever think of someone like that comes to your mind when you think of that the bully um i don't have no the con the con yeah for sure i've had folks in my history that that i could have definitely qualified as the con 100 yeah the smooth talker um the bully is kind of a build on the con they start off as a con but when they don't get what they want. They really will escalate and use dominance and they'll, you know, they might yell. And I've always had a huge disdain for yelling in the workplace. There is no reason to yell at a person in the workplace unless you're yelling to them to get out of the way of a flying object, a falling object. A person that is yelling, in my opinion, is a problem person in the workplace. And that is something that needs to be addressed immediately.
And I think that's something that employers can do right away to address any issues. I'm not saying someone who yells is always a psychopath by any means, but that might be your first clue. There's an issue with that employee. clue there's an issue with that employee. The puppet master is the most impressive of the three types. They have all the characteristics of a con and a bully, but they use others to do their dirty work for them. They recruit people, they're often referred to as flying monkeys to send their messages for them. But they're the most prolific of the three types. Prolific in what way? They have all of the characteristics of the other. So they're not just, you know, someone who's a con, they might just have that kind of capability. There's the bully who has to go to yelling, the puppet master may have more mastery over their their behavior than the other two. And I would argue that they would be the most dangerous because they're just highly skilled in manipulating people. Probably, would they be more difficult to identify in some cases as well? Absolutely. And there's so and I write about it in a spark in the dark as well. I write about how people I don't call them psychopaths, because I don't know, there's, there are people who are bullies. And psychopaths are always narcissists.
But narcissists who are far higher percentage of the population are not always, narcissists are not always psychopaths, but they are also very difficult personalities to deal with. So you may not be able to distinguish between the two. I think it would be really hard for any lay person who's not trained to be able to identify them. And I think it's even Dr. Hare talks about falling for psychopaths, cons, he's not immune either. And I say that I do all of these things to protect myself. I am not immune. In fact, I started a friendship with a woman who met with her daughters and, you know, went out and gave them all kinds of career advice. We had dinner together. It was revealed that she was a horrible con artist who had stolen money from refugees and treated them off terribly. There was articles about her in newspapers. And she had all this, she had committed white collar crime. It was awful. And I fell for her charm for sure. That was a long time ago before I got really into this. But it shocked me. Fortunately, I didn't get too close to her because everything was revealed very soon after our kind of friendship began, but it terrified me to think what the potential could have been. Had I not had that not been revealed to me. I feel like I must, I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation. feel like I must I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation um and I I feel like I've got like a like a like a radar for you know nonsense people yes like people who are like I'm like this doesn't add up you know or whatever but I also like to make sure I give people the benefit of the doubt so you know for me it's like what's that Maya Angelou quote?
When people show you who they are, believe them. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, don't I wouldn't give people that many chances if they're doing something or demonstrating some real problematic behavior. That's for sure. That's good. And I wish so many more of us were like that. I don't think things would be as much of a mess. And it's really interesting, because in this book, they talk about the fact that people who are psychopaths in the workplace, they perform very well in terms of they rate very high in communication skills, charisma and visioning, but they rate really low in performance and productivity. Oh, interesting. Yet they still get promoted because they're so charming, right? And they have this bullish behavior that makes them seem like they really care about the business. So I wrote about that a little bit in Spark and why these people get promoted. They're just really good at managing up. And upward. Yes. I learned that actually, I learned that from a few people I, I, you know, that is that is teachable. By the way, I can teach this. I feel upward on your girl. Oh, wow. Well, you know, it's no, that could be a good thing, because you're so good at managing to like down, right? And you're actually taking care of the people who report up into you. Well, I feel like it's, it's a matter of trying being okay with trying new things, you know, but it's a little bit different than what we're talking about. Anyways, that's a bit of a bunny trail. But yeah, the classic failing upward where, you know, and there have been so many executives that I've spoken to that I'm, you know, they can't do anything without an assistant, right? Without a part of me?
Without an assistant. Without an assistant. And you wonder how in the world they ever were able to get to the position they were in. Because they just, they're completely useless without a wonderful executive assistant who does everything for them. Well, one of the things that psychopaths are really good about is overstating their qualifications and outright lying about them. So one of the things, pieces of advice I have for businesses is do background checks on people. This person that, I mean, I haven't, well, I won't go into too much detail, but there is someone I know 100% who does not have the qualifications they claim to have and the degrees they claim to have publicly on LinkedIn. One of the degrees that they say they have doesn't even exist as a degree. And so if you do a background check on someone and find out that they're lying about these things, and I do, I'm not saying that, yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees. So I do not want to. Yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees.
So I do not want to have them excluded here. But if you do a background check on someone and their qualifications turn out to be untruthful, that is a huge red flag. And I don't think you should hire that person because why are they lying? That's what then that is exactly what a psychopath would do. why are they lying that's what and that is exactly what a psychopath would do yes yeah and see this is one of the reasons why i have a difficult time with references because i have a friend who had a previous she was i'm sure her her ex was a psychopath you know um one of my best friends actually and um what he would do when he was trying to get a job is he just have his mom or his sister's brother's second cousin or whatever, be his reference. You would act like he would, it was complete fabrication. So, you know, as an employer, I'm like, you know, I don't I don't even know that I believe in references, to be honest, prove to me what you can do. Right. And then like demonstrate that you have the skills that you you say you have. Maybe that's just a skeptic in me. But I'm just like, let's let's work together for a month or two and see if you can actually do what you say, you know, you can do and then, you know, if you prove it, then you're good. Well, one of the things that really helps with reference checks now is the fact that most people professionals are on LinkedIn. So someone gives you references and, and they're in a corporate role, and none of their references you can find easily on LinkedIn, then that's can be a red flag. But also, if you don't hear consistencies in their references, like they have three different references who are saying maybe positive things, but entirely different things, then make sure that you're noting that because then those might be a clue that those aren't real references as well. Yeah. Okay.
Good advice. I'm sure you have lots of good advice for higher ed. Well, I do have a list of it. And so we can talk about it at the at the end for sure. But the the thing that I the other thing I want to talk about is the prevalence in the political sphere. There is, you know, a lot of that's one that's identified with psychopaths as well. And I kind of fell back in my chair when I read this over the weekend. I'm not sure if it stood out to you, but a psychopath. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So if they're talking about other people accusing them of being a thief or something like that, or a cheater that they cheat on their spouse, that might be a good sign that that person is doing those things. But a psychopath believes that whoever, and this is a quote, whoever is weak is also a sucker. And that kind of stuck with me as well, given all the things that I'm hearing going on in politics right now. It just, it really did stick with me and put me on my heels. One of the other quotes that I found really interesting in the book. And this is again, why I think we need to really drive awareness about this topic. He asked the question, are we unknowingly allowing a society to evolve that is the perfect breeding ground and perhaps a quote unquote, killing field for psychopaths? As our newspapers tell us, this question grows more pressing every day. And this book was written in the 1990s. I would love to see a updated like another edition. But Dr. Hare is, you know, he was born in the 1930s. So I'm not sure he's has it on his plans to write a book. He must have some protégés. He does. If anyone's listening to this and is a protégé of Dr. Hare's, it's time for a new edition of this book. Or better yet, just come on the podcast with me and Amy. Yes. I have a lot of questions for you. I have a lot of questions.
But, you know, here's the thing. And I think a good accompaniment book, and maybe it's one we want to talk about another time, is called The Gift of Fear. And that's by Gavin DeBecker. And it's all about trusting your gut. So a big piece of advice that I would give to anyone listening to this podcast is, yes, be aware of the red flags. Like if you're in a job interview, and the person who is meant to be your manager does all the talking in their interview and if you won a game they won the olympics like it's like they always have to one up you and if they're not listening that can be a really good sign you're dealing with someone who's a problem personality okay i'm not going to say a psychopath but a problem personality that's like right pardon me grade three behavior right exactly yeah we all remember from grade three four whatever right yes we're always stuff I did probably the same thing you know but you grow out of that at some point or most people do you do grow out of that for sure um but the thing that Gavin DeBecker talks about in the gift of fear is that our gut is there for a reason to give us warn early warning signs that something might be wrong and it's surprisingly accurate and we should listen to it so if you feel that you might be in a situation in the workplace because it's what is really frightens me okay i'll give you the example of Robert Durst. You know who Robert Durst is? He was the subject of the documentary called The Jinx. He's from a very wealthy property management company or property owners in New York. And his wife went missing. Years and years ago. Was this one of the stories in the book? It wasn't in the book. It's kind of the book was written before this particular situation concluded and i think we really needed the conclusion in order to really um put a label on what happened right but he was not a ted bundy or jeffrey dahmer he wasn't a murderous person but he had people over the course of his life who, who angered him and who got in his way. And he made sure that he took care of that.
So I don't want to instill fear in people, what I want is for them to protect themselves. But we can become the target of a psychopath without recognizing it. If we're their competition in the workplace, they do what I refer to in a spark in the dark is as a reconnaissance mission. When they meet us, they find out all about us or so they ask us a lot of questions. It's the one time they stop talking about themselves to find out, you know, about you and they're really interested. And then you might say to them, Oh, yeah, I have to pick up drop off my kids at this time and pick them up at that time. Now let's fast forward to a time you become a threat to them professionally. Up until this point, they've been flattering you, they've been on side, they've been so supportive. And then all of a sudden, guess when they're booking meetings, when they know that you have to drop off your kids or pick them up, you know, or they're, so they found that information out. And now they're going to be really good at weaponizing that information and using it against you. And so they that's dangerous for your career. And it's also the emotional baggage you carry, especially if you've had a boss who's a psychopath. And what we do naturally, is we're like, I'm going to change my behavior right like we're normal people you think quote unquote never been so happy for adhd in my life all of that listen yeah i mean this it can be a real benefit to ask questions that other people are afraid too afraid to ask or to call out like the emperors, be the person calling out the emperor, right?
So that's a huge, that can be a huge advantage. But for people who are like me, and started, you know, were very naive, I was very naive. They're, they're gonna put themselves in this position a lot. And it's not your fault. I'm not saying it's your fault. But you're in this situation, and you are trapped, and you've been manipulated by this person, and you think it's you, it's not you, it's them. And we have to stop trying to change our behavior, thinking it's going to change their behavior, because they aren't going to change. And if you if you're dealing with a boss or a colleague you you see as a psychopath psychopath one of the best things to do is you know they say like the the thing that a wolf dislikes the most is an empty field right don't give them anything to work with so people people whose spouses may be this type of person and they're leaving them or people whose bosses or colleagues might be this type of people we have this innate uh need or this and I understand it to justify. Well, no, it wasn't like that. It was like this. Well, no, that didn't happen this way. It happened that way. Just stop talking. Don't respond to their emails. Don't don't engage. Pardon me? The gray rock method. I think I've heard like you want to. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Yeah. So I think that's what you do with narcissists is what I've heard. So folks want to actually Google this method. I believe they call it the gray rock method. Yeah. That's I'm going to look that up because I'm really interested in it, but yeah, don't give them anything to work with any more than you already have.
That can be really helpful to you and it can save you a lot of angst because they're never going to see things from your point of view. They don't care to. They are there to cause harm for them. Like, it's like you're trying to solve the fight. They're trying to have the fight. They like the fight. Or they have a goal, you know, and you're just, you know, one stepping stone, you know, towards the goal or you're not. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So did you want me to talk about some of the suggestions between both or is this something else? Yeah, no, I would love for us to like, kind of finish this up, kind of tie this up with a bow. Sure. A little bit about, you know, how can we as people identify and protect ourselves? And I think it's interesting, the idea of organizational transparency as well. Is that something that you ever talk about in relation to this? Well, I, this, that's not something I've talked about in relation to this specifically. I do think that there are ways that organizations, I don't know how being, I think being transparent can help, but it's, it's not going to resolve the problem altogether. Because even if it's a transparent organization, or aiming to be, these people are really good at flying under the radar. I recently presented about promoting praise culture in your organization. And I think one of the positive side effects of having a culture that promotes praise is that people like this aren't going to fit into that culture for very long. And their bad behavior is going to stand out so dramatically from everyone else that they won't last in an organization like that.
So to me, it's less about transparency, and more about having an organization that thrives on the on positivity and recognizing employees. And you don't think that they can adapt easily to that type of organization? I just don't think that they would be able to survive that type of organization. Because in that organization, if you yell at someone, that's going to be totally against the culture that the business is trying to create. That's entirely unacceptable. And that's actually one of the pieces of advice that Dr. Hare gives is that you should set boundaries and then follow through. And if you don't follow, it's like raising kids, right? If you don't set boundaries and follow through, they're going to know that there's cracks in the system and they're going to exploit those because that's what kids do. But that's how you raise, I always say, raise children other people like. we get into the strategies for protecting yourself. The Dr. Hare believes that these people are born this way. And it's not something it's not a rehabilitative problem, in the same way that narcissism is you can't rehabilitate someone. And he's saying that we shouldn't give up on the research for rehabilitation, because it is so important to our society. But I do think it's important for us to recognize, you're not going to fix this problem. And you need to get yourself away from it. And that's one of the pieces of advice. If you think you're in a situation, and I know it, believe me, I love all people know it's not an easy thing to do. But if you're in a situation with someone who you think fits this profile, you need to find a way out of that situation as quickly as possible and keep yourself safe.
And this is why and I think it's important to bring this up. Again, I know it's not about this. If you are leaving a spouse, you believe to be this type of person, you need to protect yourself in the early days. This is where we see people turn. Remember, I talked about Robert Durst, people getting in his way. If you're saying to someone, I'm going to take your kids, I'm going to take your house, I'm going to, that's going to be a trigger for their violence, right? So, and not that you would say that. And even if you don't say that, so that is why women's shelters exist and places where people can be protected. So if you're in a situation where you're leaving what you think could escalate, and don't be naive to the fact that it can escalate happens all the time. I think it's every six days a woman is killed by an intimate or ex intimate partner in Canada. In the US, the numbers are far, far higher. I think it's something like every three days or something. It's crazy how high the numbers are. So protect yourself. That's really important. And I just know that we're listening to this for professional purposes, that there's going to be people who are tuning in that might be like, oh my gosh, I think I'm living with this person. Okay. So Dr. Hare's advice, one of the recommendations he makes is to know yourself. Like know what your weaknesses are, right? Like you and I've just talked about your you have a lot of qualities that make you kind of repel this kind of person, which is amazing.
And I wish I had them my whole life. I unfortunately didn't know myself very well. And as I've learned more about this personality, I shouldn't even call it, it's not a personality type, it's a disorder. I've learned more about it. I've been able to also turn the mirror onto myself and think like, what am I doing that is making me vulnerable to these situations? So be aware of what weaknesses you have that can be exploited, because they are looking for the weaknesses that they can exploit in others like a wild animal kind of thing. Right? Like I said before, take a pause, if it feels too good to be true, if you feel too good in someone's company, that might be an early warning sign. And being aware of that is really important. Because especially I know, again, we're talking at work, but someone in the workplace might be flattering you constantly. And you're like, Oh, my gosh, I just have to go to that person's office. I feel so good when I'm around them. Stop and ask yourself why they use a lot of expression, expressive language. Actually, they use their hands a lot. I don't know if you remember reading that. And I kind of I felt that was a little problematic only because like it reminded me like of he was describing basically an autistic stimming almost right okay that's very good yeah need to look into that more because you're like there's some kind of I don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's some kind of i don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's so much overlap with autistic stimming like maybe yeah that could be a problem i think what he's saying is it's a blanket thing for that type of person but just because a person is doing it does not make them that type of person i would i would assume not no yeah of course not absolutely not yeah um and then uh but they do things to distract you and even the way they speak makes you feel distracted because they often won't answer questions directly and they'll take you down this rabbit hole of conversation that makes you forget even what the question was that you asked in the first place right um. Yeah. And obviously listening to your gut. So if you're seeing and feeling if you're feeling like something is wrong, something is probably wrong. So delve into that.
Don't walk away from that. Also, if other people are often better than we are at seeing if we are in a situation that is unhealthy. So if you have people and taking a risk and telling you and this is why I never like when someone's manager's manager says, deal with your manager first, if you have a problem, not all problems should be dealt with the direct line manager, because of that direct line managers and the problem, that person's manager needs to know about it and they need to know about it right away. So don't reject people when they're talking about their manager because it's seen as this view of being like, you should have handled it directly. If it's too big a problem, you need the help of someone more senior. Run background checks, as I said, and note any inconsistencies between what they've stated and what you learn about their educate, like about their qualifications.
And then be aware of who the victim is. They are great at making themselves out to be the victim. You might be the victim. But also, I'll give you a real life example. They'll say, people will say if they're getting separated, oh, the kids hate their mom or they hate their dad, right? If they're little kids, what little kids hate their mom or dad? That doesn't exist. So as soon as I hear someone say that to me, I'm like, okay, you're the problem here. I'm finished with this conversation. And then seek professional support. If you've worked with someone who has this type, is this type of person, you may be suffering for a very long time, especially if you worked with them for a long time so please please take care of yourself because um the this could affect your entire career if you're not handling because you might have lost so much self-confidence uh that you really need to go and get the help that you need to kind of recover from that. And hopefully you're in a workplace where maybe you have an EAP, maybe that can get you started, or you have really good benefits. But that's a really good way to handle it.
The last thing that I did want to add, because I did two last points, because I really think they're important for our awareness and our safety. The psychopath is very good at making their victim look like the crazy one. So they'll be very calm as a cucumber, you're coming in, and you'll be having a meeting with someone. And they'll, they'll try to agitate you, they're good at provoking you behind the scenes. And then you're like, I can't believe they're saying that because and they'll be like, look how great like he's nuts, right? And they'll be like, look how great, like he's nuts, right? And they're cool and calm. And so you seem like, and then you start to even question yourself. This happens in therapy a lot with people who are living in a relationship with these types of people. The last point I want to make is single travelers are often a target. And I think that's very relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. Be aware that you might open yourself up to strangers in that situation. Like if you're at the bar, if you're a hotel or something like that, be very aware of who you're talking to, of your surroundings.
Don't give someone more information than they need about you. Pretend that you're traveling with someone else when you're talking to them, even if you feel really great in their company, because that could be the first warning sign. So, yeah. And don't waste your sympathy on them. Do not spend a moment wasting time being sympathetic and as quickly as you can disengage with someone who you think is like this, if you can. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Amy, I'm really happy that you managed to get away from the situation that you told us about before. And I think that's amazingly courageous of you. And that especially now that you're, you know, you're educating other people on that as well.
Yeah, I just I see the damage that it causes on and this is like smaller scale in the workplace, bigger, bigger in, in the news, right? You're hearing all about all of these situations. There's a certain type of person that is causing all of these problems. And, and I do believe that the more we can drive awareness, and I wish, I don't know why people still laugh when I talk about psychopaths. I don't know why. I think people feel like this isn't as common. And I know that it's not like, it's not, you know, what am I trying to say? It is, it's a lot more common than we think it is. Exactly. And it's like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. And they're like, I never saw this coming. And all the like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. I never saw this coming. And all the warning signs were there. And that's what's so painful about some of these situations is all the warning signs are there. We just have this vision of a person who I feel like the media has created for us and that we believe they might look monstrous or give us signals they don't they're amazing they're so opposite to what we think that they are well i think we can come back to that maya anjali quote you know and just yeah look at people and see what they're demonstrating in the workplace and like, you know, use data and use, you know, use like leverage other people's opinions, you know, and kind of like, I guess kind of band together to make sure that we protect each other as well.
Yeah, and I do love that quote and how you completed it. Because you often hear when people show you who they are, believe them. But you said, and it is accurate, believe them the first time. Don't give them another chance. I think that's the actual quote, though, right? Yes, that's what I mean, is we often just cut it off before when people tell you who they are, believe them and it stops. But believe them and it stops. But believe them the first time. The first time part is is very important. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And you can see probably that I'm incredibly passionate about this topic.
So it's been really nice to have the opportunity to talk about it in this much detail. I don't want to come across as though I'm an expert. I'm not. I rely on the experts for this information, but it's certainly something that I've researched a lot and thought about deeply. Absolutely. And it comes across and I can tell. Oh, we need to go and like do a Pilates class or have a glass of wine or something after this I was like please tell me she does not cancel have to cancel our recording today because I cannot carry this I have to I have to kind of not think about this for a little while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation a lot of emotional labor it is it is yes I while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation.
A lot of emotional labor. It is. It is. Yes. I'm glad I did it. And I hope that everyone just puts in that investment for themselves. Just a little bit. Listen to this podcast all the way through. Read these books. They will really help you and they will actually make your life better. It's not going to make it more scary. It's going to make it better. And when Gavin DeBecker talks about the gift of fear he truly is giving you a gift it will not make you more scared it will actually make you feel more empowered that you can handle anything that comes at you
thanks Amy
thank you
don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!
