Kaitlin LeMoine and Julian Alssid turn the microphone on themselves to kick off Season 5 of the Work Forces podcast. As they approach their 50th episode, the co-hosts reflect on their journey and the dramatic shifts they've witnessed at the intersection of work and learning. Kaitlin and Julian discuss the evolution of workforce development from a fringe topic to a central national priority, highlighting how this shift has been influenced by economic, political, and technological changes. They unpack the rise of a skills-based ecosystem, noting how the traditional "once and done" model of education has become obsolete in an era of rapid technological change, particularly with the widespread adoption of generative AI. Drawing on their consulting work and insights from past guests, the co-hosts emphasize the imperative of cross-sector collaboration and human-centered design in bridging the gap between education and industry. They stress that experiential learning is now the new currency of opportunity, and human connection remains the "secret sauce" for success. Kaitlin and Julian offer practical advice for leaders navigating this period of unprecedented change. They encourage listeners to embrace agility and partnership, keep their eye on the prize of helping individuals thrive, and anchor their work in human purpose to build a more equitable and prosperous future for all.
Transcript
Julian Alssid: Welcome to the workforces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid.
Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning.
Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.
Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry, and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in.
Kaitlin LeMoine: So Julian, we're at an exciting point here, kicking off Season Five. Can't believe it. We're rapidly coming up on 50 episodes and two years of hosting this podcast. Thanks to all of our guests and listeners who have supported this work so far, and we're excited to be in this new season, and it felt like a good moment to welcome everyone and take this moment to share our own perspectives. It feels like a good time to flip the mic back on ourselves and share a bit of our own thinking at this evolving and fast moving intersection of work and learning.
Julian Alssid: Yes, it indeed is a milestone moment for us, Kaitlin, as we embark on Season Five here, and it's been such a pleasure working with you, consulting with you, and podcasting with you. And also, I'm so grateful to our guests and our audience for making this possible. It's just as as we had hoped from the beginning, as this kind of grew out of our consulting, it really has just become kind of a natural corollary and feedback loop for us to keep learning and sharing and learning and sharing. So let's learn and share with one another today.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely well, the feeling is mutual. Thank you for your partnership over the last few years in this work and in our consulting efforts. And yeah, excited to dive in with this conversation today. So I guess to kick us off, Julian, you know, given your many years in this space and in the last few years of our work together, you know, how are you seeing the intersection of work and learning, changing and evolving. What are you paying attention to? What are you thinking about?
Julian Alssid: I keep going back to the same point when I really think back to my like, 35 years in the field. You know when I started this, and even when we met over a decade ago, this was still fringe work. It was people interested in workforce development were basically the people who were working on workforce development in one form or another, and it has gone from front to center, I think, driven mostly by economic imperative, you know, by rising skill demands and gaps between learners and employers and everyone trying to find a better way to come together. It's been enforced, and I think, fed further by policy. So for example, I mean, I guess I will say it's and have been saying this for a long time too. It's really been kind of an apple pie topic that cuts across the political spectrum, and so, you know, and we're and we're even seeing that with all the change going on now. The Biden administration, previous administration, made significant investments in workforce development, and that helped to accelerate and focus attention across industry and government and education. And just recently, the Trump administration released its new talent strategy report, which kind of lays out a plan for a more streamlined system. Now, of course, these approaches are very different, and I think along with that is this kind of great sense of uncertainty, like, well, where will these new policies drive us and so it's, it's kind of like we're all dressed up and not exactly sure where to go.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Right. Well, and everything's moving so quickly too, right? Like it's it's the policy, it's also the tech space. It's also how industries are shifting very, very quickly, and just trying to keep pace and kind of keep all of these different changes on our radar screens while still moving the work forward feels like a key challenge.
Julian Alssid: Yeah. So, yes, absolutely. I mean, and there's just so many pieces of this to unpack. I mean, what do you see as, like, what is, what is rising to the surface for you?
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah? I mean, I think that one of the things that strikes me that feels distinct from other points, I guess, in my work in this field over the many years is that I feel like there's so much happening for employers and industry, for educators, whether in K 12 or in higher ed, and for learners, kind of all at the same time. And maybe it's partially that, you know, the focus of my work has shifted to over the years, like from being very focused on implementing one program, or one initiative, or thinking about tactically, how to go about doing things, versus also now operating at a level of thinking about how does this broader landscape impact work with different types of clients, but it just feels like there's so much movement for employers as they think about how to hire and train and recruit the next generation of employees. Then there's the next generation of learners, and how we are educating those individuals, whether they're from some of our podcast conversations, right, like in middle school, or whether they're in higher ed or adult learners who are looking to advance further. And then for the actual people you know, for those learners, as they're looking for jobs and looking to advance. It just feels like there's so much movement, so much at stake, and it's like this moment of de siloing wherever possible, because we're all like, there's this recognition that employers can't do this work without educators. Educators can't do this work without employers, and we need this feedback loop in order to really try to all advance in this complex intersection of work and learning together, that's I feel like, really top of mind for me at this moment.
Julian Alssid: Yeah, it is. It is so complex. And I like to try to think about like, well, what are the kind of, what are the threads that run through it all? Kind of try to bring some clarity and and one that that keeps popping to mind for me is this whole idea of the the rise of a skills based ecosystem that, you know, I think that you know that there was so much talk for years about, you know, kind of the knowledge based economy and, and I do think we are, on some level, shifting to more of a skills based economy. And I was even just thinking back to like interviews we did. I remember Matt Siegelman from Burning Glass Institute talked about the study that Burning Glass had done back in, I think '22 that showed that at that point, the average job had seen 30% of its skills replaced in five years. And so this whole idea of kind of the one and done model of education becomes obsolete. And by the way, that 37% figure came before the widespread adoption of generative AI.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah. So what does it mean now? Right?
Julian Alssid: Yeah, exactly. Are we moving now? Right? It was bad enough then, and you could see the gaps, and you could see people employers complaining about not getting the skills, and people frustrated with their education, saying they're not getting what they need. And yes, but I think what we're seeing now is employers are increasingly prioritizing skills and competencies. Their still certainly their leadership has degrees, but it's definitely moving to the fore.
Kaitlin LeMoine: No, I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I think one thing that stuck out to me from our past, from our episodes this past season, kind of building on that, you know, were a couple of different conversations just around this integration of, like, career advice, support, and transparency, kind of across this ecosystem and certainly being built more into the educational experience. Like you know, whether it was our conversation with Nisha Taylor, with NACE regarding both the career competencies and making the skills and competencies that learners are acquiring clear and transparent, like how to talk about those things with employers, how to make it ring true to employers. And then even thinking back to Scott Carlson and Ned Laff with their Hacking College book, and thinking about how do we really make the experiential learning more embedded through, like, a field of study type approach in the higher ed experience, right? Like, so it's like, I think what you're saying about this knowledge based economy and this becoming more front and center there, I think is more and more great work being done around, how do we bridge that gap and make the language we're using clear across employers and learning institutions, so that it's like this is what people know and can do, and learners know how to communicate it. And actually the transparency thread is has been woven into our consulting work as well. We support clients in researching and determining learning pathways that lead to career progression in order to make opportunities clearer for both learners and employees, who may themselves be at very different stages of their career journeys. So, you know, I guess really, so much of it's about being explicit, about naming the skills being acquired in a way that's useful for learners, especially at this moment with AI where it can be really challenging to make oneself distinct. And really, so much of it's about being able to communicate your knowledge, your experience and what you know and can do.
Julian Alssid: Exactly, and it's really leading so many of the institutions to adapt their curriculum and embrace this sort of new model of education that focuses on skills and practical applications. So how do you do that, while maintaining, you know, academic standards to the degree that you feel those. Are important, you know, we know those academic skills, or are the skills that carry people longest in their careers and and I think part of what also adds to this complexity is this proliferation of new tools to kind of inform and support the entire learning and advising and hiring cycle, right? So it's a blizzard of information and activity that all revolves around this kind of rise of a sort of skills based ecosystem and redefining the role of education.
Kaitlin LeMoine: No, I think that that's right. I mean, and it does make me think about, like, what does all of this mean for us? Like, in our consulting work too, right? Like, because, because, I think for all of us, I mean, every time we're on this podcast, right, there's this element of like, how can we be forces in this work? How do we apply this work to our own our own lives, our own efforts? It feels like it's like we're talking about these big picture challenges and and areas of opportunity and like, as as we're talking it's making me think, well, as we go about our own work, I think one of the things we're trying to do is both drive projects and initiatives forward in collaboration with our clients, while also being mindful and aware of this landscape and remaining kind of up to date on what's happening, what's current, right? And like, trying to decipher, okay, what do we need to pay immediate attention to, and what's like a thread to be monitoring, but like, we keep the work going, right, right? Like, that feels like a piece of the work that's just now inherent in everything we take on. As far as, like, one idea for, like, practical implementation of all this learning. It's just part of how we approach it now.
Julian Alssid: No, for sure, and it's interesting because I think it calls for sort of a level of discipline on our part, as well as our clients or partners, that didn't exist previously. It's just, again, trying to keep the focus on what we are trying to accomplish? So for example, and that just keeps bringing me back to like, what are the what are the things that matter, no matter how much is changing that you need to keep the handle on and and one that comes to mind for me, and I look back at last season and thinking about our consulting, as well as is the imperative of partnerships and the need for cross sector collaboration. And you know, the idea that no one partner can do this alone is way, way too complex.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely, and that's where so much of where consulting work takes place, as the external partner that helps develop and facilitate these partnerships to ensure stakeholder alignment and a continuous feedback loop that allows different partners to bring their unique vanity points and perspectives to the table, while also being mindful and aware of the broader landscape in which we're all operating and collaborating and working together can help to unearth where there might otherwise be hiccups, like you were thinking of it this way. Oh, I was thinking of it that way. How can we come together before we design a solution?
Julian Alssid: Exactly, I'm thinking about the work we're doing now with a community college in Massachusetts and its partners around manufacturing. It really is about what each partner brings to the table that's unique. In this case, the educators educate, the employers run businesses. There's a lot of nuance there in the perspectives, and how do you communicate them, and how do you get everyone on the same page so they can, right up front, have the basis for a solid partnership that's going to ultimately make a difference?
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is difficult and complicated work.
Julian Alssid: Yeah, and it's often why we're brought in as consultants. So given all of that, what can people do to be forces at this rapid time of change and transition?
Kaitlin LeMoine: And maybe this sounds too optimistic, but there's a part of me that's like, let's continue to drive good work forward, right? There's so many amazing programs, initiatives like that are really focused on helping learners succeed, meet their next milestone, their next goal, whether it's workforce development, a training program, you know, four year degree, whatever it is, right? Like, there's so many great initiatives moving like, I think at moments of, like, a lot of change in transition. It's almost like, don't stop, like, there's the need to slow down and reevaluate and be aware of what's going on. But also, there's just so much need that, like the work will continue in some way, shape or form. And I think, like I'd said earlier, the other thing is really to remain as much as possible, like remaining current, right on, on these shifts, maybe without it letting without any one new bit of information totally driving you in a totally new direction. Because I think it can feel like oh, wait a minute, this is the new the newest information on AI, what do we do with this? And it's like, well, how does that new information fit within the existing strategy you have in place? How can you learn from that information or incorporate it without maybe it upending? Like, you know, whatever your strategy or plan is, those are a couple things that stick out to me.
Julian Alssid: Yeah, it's. Funny as you say that, what popped in my mind is, you know, technology alone does not solve the workforce challenges totally, at least not yet. But in fact, I think for me, two points that kind of come to the fore in terms of what we can do to be forces in this time of change as well. One is the main one is just to kind of keep our eye on the prize, because it is, as you say, so easy to get caught up in the swirl or chase down rabbit holes and and at the core, you know, the intersection of work and learning is about helping individuals thrive and growing the economy. It's kind of this dual customer focus, as we like to say, and so I think therefore our clients, our customers, our audience and us all need to embrace agility and partnership. We really need to adopt this mindset of continuous learning and adaptability, because this things are changing, and they're gonna keep changing and changing. I mean, you know, we're like again, we've barely begun to factor in AI to what the impact on work, and if you look at the amount of money being invested, it's going to have an impact, no matter what the reports today are telling us.
Kaitlin LeMoine: The impacts are already happening, right?
Julian Alssid: They're already happening, but they're going to be way more massive than anyone will probably realizes or wants to admit. You know, I think back to the conversation we had even a couple of seasons ago with Pardis Madhavi, who's, you know, former university president who talked with us in Season Three about how leaders of institutions have to embrace a high tolerance for failure and a culture of nimbleness and, you know, in order to remain relevant, and I think that's something we all need to do. And then the other is just not to lose sight of the fact that this all has to be anchored, this work has to be anchored in human purpose. I mean, that's the secret sauce, right?
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, no, I think one of the things that sticks out now more than ever, and it's come up in a couple of our podcast conversations with, I think, with Matt Siegelman and Julia Freeland Fisher just around, like the human connection piece, right? Like so much of, I think what's happening now is re emphasizing the importance of human skills and like, how do we make sure those connections remain and that we continue to build skills like problem solving and critical thinking and communication, right, like not let go of those skills as as these other technological advancements, as you said, right, continue to push us in new in kind of unchartered directions.
Kaitlin LeMoine: It was on Jean Eddie this, this quote kept popping out at me as I went back to listen to our earlier podcasts in preparation for this discussion, is Jean Eddy from American Student Assistance said that the goal is to help students find a path that makes their hearts sing. And I think ultimately we've just got to keep that human focus.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yep, yep. I think that's right.
Julian Alssid: So with that said, you know, here we are ready to launch our next set of interviews, where we will certainly continue to unpack and delve into these and more topics as they emerge.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Yep, we're kicking off Season Five, and we'll be diving in our next episode with new guests and a whole new season. So thank you, Julian, for taking the time to talk with me today.
Julian Alssid: This is great, Kaitlin, and we should definitely do this more often, and maybe even dive in a little. You know, people have said to us, our listeners have said they want to learn more about what we do and, you know, and our views. So there you go, there's a little bit of it, and we'll be back with more. This is a teaser, so look forward to continuing this conversation.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Indeed. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back soon.
Kaitlin LeMoine: We hope you enjoyed today's conversation, and appreciate you tuning in to Work Forces. Thank you to our listeners and guests for their ongoing support, and a special thanks to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell, if you're interested in sponsoring the podcast or want to check out more episodes, please visit workforces dot, info forward, slash podcast. You can also find Work Forces wherever you regularly listen to your favorite podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, and share it with your colleagues and friends. And if you're interested in learning more about Work Forces Consulting, please visit workforces dot info forward slash consulting for more details about our multi service practice.
