Scott Cheney, Chief Executive Officer of Credential Engine, discusses bringing transparency to a credential marketplace that has grown to over 1.85 million unique credentials representing $2.3-2.4 trillion annually—a tenth of the U.S. economy. Drawing on over 30 years at the intersection of workforce development and education, Cheney describes how the explosive growth in micro-credentials and digital badges creates navigation challenges for learners and employers. He explains Credential Engine's Credential Transparency Description Language (CTDL), a data format enabling disconnected systems to communicate like travel booking platforms do for airlines and hotels. The conversation explores state-level implementations in Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee, Texas, and Florida, where credential registries help workers compare programs, costs, and outcomes, and innovative work with AACRAO to credential the skills of 40 million Americans with some college but no degree through verified digital badges. Cheney emphasizes that digitization empowers learners to own and share credentials rather than relying on paper transcripts, urging learners to request digital formats, educators to issue them proactively, and highlighting federal support for talent marketplaces that will transform credential navigation.
Transcript
Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces podcast. I'm Julian Alssid.
Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning.
Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.
Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our workforce consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry, and workforce development all across the country.
We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in.
Julian Alssid: Kaitlin, we talk a lot on this podcast about skills-based hiring, competency-based education and helping learners translate what they know into career opportunities. But there's a fundamental infrastructure challenge underneath all of that. How do we actually make sense of the credential landscape?
Kaitlin LeMoine: It's true. The ecosystem is incredibly fragmented. We have traditional degrees, certificates, badges, licenses, apprenticeships, and industry certifications. And those are just the formal credentials. Many of these systems don't effectively speak to one another and learners and employers alike struggle to understand what different credentials actually represent in terms of skills and competencies.
Julian Alssid: Right. And it's not just about quantity, though the numbers are staggering. It's about transparency and comparability. If I earn a credential in cybersecurity from one provider, how does that compare to a similar sounding credential from another? What skills does it actually represent? And how do employers make sense of all this when they're trying to hire?
Kaitlin LeMoine: And those types of questions bring us to our guest today. We're joined by Scott Cheney, Chief Executive Officer of Credential Engine, the organization working to bring transparency to the credentials marketplace. Scott has spent over 30 years at the intersection of workforce development, post-secondary education, and economic development. Before founding Credential Engine, he served as Policy Director for Workforce, Economic Development, and Pensions for Senator Patty Murray and the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee. Prior to his work on Capitol Hill, Scott formed his own consulting firm working with states, companies, foundations, and think tanks on education, training, and employment issues. He has also held positions with the National Alliance of Business, the American Society for Training and Development, and the US Chamber of Commerce. Scott has also been involved in learner and worker mobility efforts globally, including serving on the Board of Directors of the Velocity Network Foundation and on the Strategic Advisory Committee of the Groningen Declaration Network.
Julian Alssid: Scott, welcome to Work Forces, we're thrilled to have you with us today.
Scott Cheney: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Appreciate the opportunity.
Kaitlin LeMoine: So as we dive in today, Scott, I know we gave your bio, but please tell us a bit more about your background and what led you to Credential Engine.
Scott Cheney: Yeah, the background is not necessarily a clean line. So, you know, we talk about pathways, we talk about how do people find their way to certain places. I can't at all guarantee that any one thing led to my being here. Other than it just being a really different and unique opportunity to have an impact not just across the education and training ecosystem here in the United States, but to really think about how do we use and manage information about offerings across the globe. And how do we actually have better comparability, not just of a... to your example Julian, a certificate in one field by one provider, but a degree in the same field by a different provider and a certification. And then how do we do that when we're looking to support mobility of individuals across national lines.
So it was a little different than anything I'd ever done because it's a very technical field, but it was very much in line with this interest in how do we improve education and workforce and training for people. To do it, it always got me very frustrated working in the Senate and then dealing with this very deconstructed ecosystem, we think along very artificial lines about education and training, right? We think about, oh, this is K-12. And then that's even primary and then secondary. And then you get into workforce and higher ed and we organize our thinking around largely federal funding streams, right? That's a higher ed, you know, kind of issue. That's a workforce issue. That's a Perkins issue. That's a, you know, Pell or a TANF issue. And people don't think that way. People think about what do I need next to get me the better job and to advance myself. And I don't care how it's funded, I don't care who offers it. I want to know it's going to be effective for me. And that's what this organization is really trying to dive into.
Julian Alssid: So Scott, just recently you published your annual report, counting credentials, I guess counting credentials 2025. Um, which, which provides an update on the credential landscape. Please, if you will, share some of the findings of that report and particularly interested in hearing and knowing any surprises that emerged for you.
Scott Cheney: Yeah. So we produced this one in 2025, the one that we did previous was in 2022. Um, it's a lot of work. We do it, we do it periodically. And, and one of the findings, the very top level finding is that we have available in the United States a little over 1.8 million unique credentials. So that is a staggeringly large number, but it would be helpful to just do a little bit of explanation about what's in there. First of all, when we use the term credential, oftentimes people think about a credential is one bucket of things and then there are degrees, right? We don't use the term credential that way. We use the term credential to mean anything that is intended to represent what you have earned and learned and can apply in some additional space. It could be further education. It could be employment. It could just be for self-satisfaction, right? That you're you're doing it because I'm a history buff and I'm not looking to be employed in history, but I went and took a degree or got a certificate in, you know, medieval history because I like it.
And so when we think about it that way, and we think about also breaking down a history degree from West Texas is different than a history degree at the University of Washington is different than a history degree at Central Florida. And it's not because history is fundamentally different. It's because the unique sets of skills that you earn, the professors have different specialties. The marketplace into which you're going to use that credential might be different in each of those places. The costs are different, right? So we categorize each of those even though they're in the same field of study as separate credentials. So one is that we just count everything and we really want to help people understand. So it's a very large space.
But the more interesting finding is that the growth in non-degree in the short-term credentials, and in fact, you can even get down to—and we're seeing more credentialing of single skills or small groupings of skills that are just what that individual needed, maybe because an employer said, we've got a new piece of equipment and I need you to go get these three additional skills to know how to run that equipment, and we're going to certify that you've got those skills and we're going to recognize that as a credential. And increasingly that's being done through things like digital badges, where you're not taking a full even a certificate program. You're earning those specific skills and once you've mastered them, they're being credentialized.
So we're seeing this massive growth in very discrete skills gains and being issued as a credential and that's a lot of the growth we've seen. We were um, just over a million credentials in 2022. We did a much better count of these digital badges. And so the numbers now around 1.8 million. And it's offered by about 135,000 different providers. So credentials are being issued by any number of employers, of nonprofits, of museums, you know, traditional education sources. So it really is becoming a very democratized kind of ecosystem that we're in. And because we're doing a lot of this now as digital credentials, we're able to recognize learning as it's happening and empowering people with more information about their skills, their capabilities, than we've ever been able to do before.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Scott, one thing I've been quite struck by reading the counting credentials 2025 report and then also just hearing you talk about, you know, sort of your kind of didn't expect to be in the technical element of this work. And I don't know if when you said technical, you also meant technological, but I'm struck by, you know, the need for data transparency in particular and how to build that foundation and that infrastructure. Especially as you said, right, like if you're comparing one type of program across institutions, how do we make sure that that all of this information speaks to one another, that we're all using the same information. You know, I loved the idea of um, in some of your writing you've talked about solid data, I like that acronym around structured open linked interoperable and durable. But just would love to hear more there because I think it's like it's a really complex and I think sometimes a hard space for people to really get their minds around including myself.
Scott Cheney: So it is and it isn't, right? The education world has not really operated in this way. Uh, and honestly, the other number from our counting credentials report is we in this country spend somewhere around $2.3, $2.4 trillion a year on um, efforts to help people obtain credentials. Could be in what we spend in K-12. It could be what parents shell out in tuition for higher ed. It's, you know, federal, state and local funding. It's employers, you know, what they spend internally on their own training. And that is of a, I think we're at about a $21, $22 trillion economy right now. So it is a tenth of the entire economy. It's massive, right? And yet we don't really think in this sector around this idea of transparency and data interoperability. But for comparison, you would never assume that we could live without Expedia and Travelocity and Kayak. You would hop in your car and not use a a navigation tool, Apple Maps or Waze or something. But those can exist because those sectors have all agreed we're going to use a common data infrastructure. So that every airline, every hotel, every restaurant uses the same kind of data format. So that Expedia can reliably pull information and share it with you, that you're actually going to book a Marriott and it's actually going to be a king size bed, right?
So what we're trying to do is the same thing for the education and training marketplace here in the country and then working to make this possible globally. And we do that through as as you pointed out, a data format that is structured, meaning that we know that this term means this thing. And if you publish a term, you're saying I am a Marriott or I am Ivy Tech. It's open and that's really important. We don't want this data to be closed off to public use. We don't want it to be owned and behind paywalls. This is a public good. We want this information to be open and accessible to anybody, anytime. It's linked. Again, linking, you go on the web right now, you can link between all these different things. The hyperlinks allow you to search and explore and that is just a modern data format. And so this information needs to be the same. Interoperable. So interoperability just means that if you say something is a credential of a PhD in psychology from Purdue and you take that information and you want to share it with the employer, that the employer can read that information and know that it's true in their system as it was true when Purdue published the information. So it's just a truth and that that consistency. And then durable is that it lasts. We can always find it. It's always going to be good. Whether you're talking about my degree that I earned in 1988 or information that's needed now as I'm looking for a new job. So that information is going to last.
We happen to do that at Credential Engine using a data schema that we call the credential transparency description language. It is the data schema that we helped to create back when we were founded. And it is a solid data format. It does all those things that we described. It just happens to be the one and we developed it because nothing existed like it. There was no way to do this back when we founded the organization. So we were founded to create this data language. So when you think about it that way, and you think about oh, well of course I can use Waze to drive across town. Of course I can use Expedia to book a vacation. And then you say, why can't I compare and build a pathway for myself from high school through my own learning into community college onto a degree onto an industry certification? Because all that information sits in different repositories using different terms. And we're trying to change that. We're trying to bring all that information into a common language so that you can build your own pathway. I oftentimes say, we make it easier to book a vacation than we do to help you find your way through this credential landscape to get the right skills, to get a good job, to be able to afford the vacation. And that's just wrong. We need to make it easier to navigate your education and employment pathway than it is to book a vacation.
Julian Alssid: Yeah, indeed. So bringing us back to the report for a moment, I'm really interested in, you know, I too was struck by that massive jump of crossing the million mark of digital badges and online certificates. And I guess I'm wondering, are we... from where you sit, are we how would you characterize this in relation to the traditional degrees? Are we are we are we at, are we approaching a tipping point of sorts? You know, are we, do you see, do you see these badges effectively, these badges and certs being stacked into broader programs? Is that happening yet?
Scott Cheney: Yeah, so let's take a second and just clarify a few things. One, we don't actually know if from 2022 to 25 there was just a growth in the number of badges out there. We just were able to get a better count on the badges that exist. So it's quite possible that in 2022 there were actually, you know, that our number may have been one and a half million and it grew to 1.8. It may have been 1 point we don't have the longitudinal data on the badges. So I can't say for certain if it was growth.
The second thing to understand about digital badges is that it's not just happening in the short-term arena. A lot of universities digitally badge their degrees, right? And so you're just a digital badge is a way of carrying the information. It's no longer having to go get the paper transcript and the paper degree and hanging it on your wall. It's being given to you in a digital format. And so digital badging is happening across the entire spectrum of education and training and all these different kind of credentials. It's just that you can create a digital badge and issue it very easily. And it can be done really easily for a short-term program. So we are seeing a real growth in digital badging and the digitization of this entire marketplace is fabulous. Right? It is a game changer unto itself because it means that I don't have to go pay $20 or $100 every time I need a copy of a transcript from the place I went to. I don't have to, you know, I can carry that information myself. I earned this degree. I earned this certificate. And the provider of that is awarding it to me. Maybe as paper. That's fine. I'll keep the paper. But you're issuing it to me in a digital format as well. And that digital format is then something I can own and it has a verification behind it, right? So it is empowering in ways that we've never been able to empower people before. So we strongly encourage every provider of every type of credential to move to a digital format, right? And that is a game changer. Because now we can also share that information more easily with potential employers. And employers can verify that Scott actually did earn these things from these providers. And you can change that whole dynamic of the interactions and the transactions that an individual can have and they can do it in a secure way.
So we're really excited about that move to digitization and as I said before, it means that we can actually do a better job of capturing those discrete skills that are earned. You know, it could be as simple as, and I'm not saying that being a teacher is simple, but oftentimes you might get a principal observing a teacher and noticing that they had really, really good classroom management of a difficult situation. Right? That teacher didn't go back to school. That teacher displayed a set of skills in a classroom in front of a known authority who can then say to the teacher, hey, I'm going to issue you a digital badge because you handled that situation really, really well. And I have the authority and the ability to recognize your skills, to verify that you actually applied them and have them, and use them in a meaningful context. And I'm going to issue you a digital badge. It could be that simple. But that's a powerful thing for a teacher to be then be able to say that yeah, I was recognized and it was rewarded to me. It wasn't just the principal saying hey nice job in there and then forgetting that she said it to me or he said it to me a year later. No, I have proof of this. You saw my abilities to do this and it was issued so that is a game changer in so many ways. So this digitization is more than just one technical piece of it, it is an empowering piece for individuals everywhere.
Kaitlin LeMoine: So Scott, as we've discussed, right, this work requires bringing a lot of people together to make these otherwise fragmented systems interconnected and working well together. Curious to learn more beyond the report around you know, how does Credential Engine help to support and drive those efforts? I would love to hear a couple of examples to illustrate this because I think it's like so much of this is in the details and it's super challenging work to bring these stakeholders together and make this work happen. So would love to hear more.
Scott Cheney: That's a great question. And you're right. We have a a highly fragmented ecosystem in the country. So when we think about where information lies about this credential ecosystem, it's with certainly the frontline providers of them. It's with state agencies that oversee them or maybe fund them. It's with third party accrediting or qualifying bodies. It's with labor market information shops that might generate the earnings and employment outcomes. It's with employers, you know, who might say that yeah, those are the credentials that we want and these are the credentials and skills that we need inside this inside our company. So it is and that's just a smattering of examples. So let me give you two examples of how this might work. So Arkansas, a state level kind of application.
Arkansas has a very aggressive, very well-organized initiative being run out of the office of the Chief Data Officer and under the direct kind of oversight of the Governor. So a centralized effort to bring very comprehensive information together to be able to help individuals see the entire landscape. Not just of what they have or what they can earn, where they can go to get things, but to also be able to store what they have earned in a credential wallet into a learning and employment record. And then being able to compare what they've earned with where they can go to get new skills, to what employers are actually looking for. And doing all of that in a digital platform and a talent marketplace, essentially as the administration is now talking about these things. So we are helping them build not only a credential registry, a common verifiable source of truth about every credential that's available to Arkansans and how to piece all those together. But we're also building for them a repository of support services that are available both through educational institutions—does that community college have a food pantry, do they offer counseling, do they have tutoring, are they on a bus line, do they have child care—but support services also from other providers in the state so if the community college doesn't have something but someone else nearby does, you can still find that. So all of that information is going to be available in this open data format in this credential transparency description language. And the state is combining that with lots of other information about what employers want, about you know other available services and they're putting this into platforms that can help individuals navigate.
Julian Alssid: May I just jump in on that example for a sec, I'm just curious the state examples are impressive and Arkansas sounds pretty sophisticated. But you know of course people and jobs cross state lines. And so how do we ensure that you know a state like Arkansas' data doesn't become an isolated island of data?
Scott Cheney: We're working really hard to have the same data format being used in Alabama, with Tennessee, with Texas, in Florida. There are about 35 states right now that are working with us in some manner to to bring this data format to to their systems. And then we're also seeing the the federal government and the administration not only talking about the need to build credential registries in every state, but about the need to have the information in those registries be in that structured, open, linked, interoperable, durable format. So we're seeing really good support from and embrace of this from the federal government onto state governments and into systems and institutions. It is a very big lift, right? Like I said, there's 135,000 providers of credential information. But if we can focus the work at 54 states and territories and we can get the federal government to say, yes, this is the way we should be moving in our work nationally, then Arkansas is not an island, right? Arkansas is simply one stepping stone of a person's pathway that they can traverse.
The other example I was just going to share quickly is one that we've been working on with the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. We know that there are over 40 million people in this country that have some college, no degree. So we've been working with AACRAO, the registrars, and a number of institutions to say, let's figure out what the skills were in the courses that an individual took and that they passed and let's extract those skills and be able to issue a digital badge, a verifiable credential for the skills that someone earned because they did earn them. They just couldn't for one reason or another complete the degree that we've held up as the holy grail in this country. But you did go to school, you did go to college, and we should recognize and award you the skills that you earned. So we've been working on a project that allows us to extract the skills from those courses that Scott may have taken. And issue a credential of those skills by the institution. And the institution stands behind, yeah, Scott came, he took these 10 classes, he passed them. We're going to assume that because he passed them he actually earned those skills. And here is a credential. We hope you come back. We would love to have you come back and finish. But and so that's something that's not at a state level. That's an institution saying, we want to award and recognize what Scott earned while he was here. And that can be done by any institution that wants to raise their hand to say it's a different way for us to recognize and to engage with our student population.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Well and I would imagine too, right, I mean that there is an encouraging aspect there for the learner too, right? Of like, I did, I actually did earn something, it may not have been the full degree, but here's all the skills and competencies and the knowledge that I acquired and here's how I can show it. It's verified in the world, right?
Scott Cheney: What a great email it must be that you went to these classes five years ago and your institution is writing you and saying, hey, we'd like to recognize what you did earn while you were here. That's a really and and we're not actually going to charge you for it, right? We can just issue you a digital credential. And that's a wow, it makes me actually want to maybe reengage with that institution, right? And and so there's just positives all around. It helps the economy. It helps that individual. It helps the institution. So yeah, we're thrilled by that work.
Kaitlin LeMoine: So thinking about like, you know, kind of as you're saying right, where we're headed, where we'd like to be with so much of this work. I think you know one thing that has stood out to us and our work over the last few years is just how fast skill needs are changing in the economy. And so just curious to hear Scott from your perspective, how do we help really learners and employers, I mean really kind of stakeholders across this landscape navigate the value of these credentials when there are shifts happening so quickly? What are your thoughts there?
Scott Cheney: So I think the first thing is I would say is I would encourage anyone, any provider of credentials to move to an issuing of of whatever is being awarded into a verifiable credential format, into a digital format, right? Let's begin to have a full adoption. And it's moving that direction, but we can speed this up, right? Those platforms are out there, it's not hard to do and and so we would encourage that everyone starts to to issue these digitally. And then to make sure that you're issuing them to an individual in a way that they can actually hold and and secure and use, right? They may choose to add it to their LinkedIn profile. They may not be in a state where there's a ready accessibility to a learning and employment record platform yet, we're seeing more of that coming. Again, part of what the administration is doing in these talent marketplaces is to encourage that states and systems create both credential registries but begin to issue learning and employment records. And to help employers produce job postings in a skills-based format. So a skills-based job description generator is the third piece of what they're calling their talent marketplaces.
If we do all of that, so just thinking about this now not from the individual side, but things that institutions and states should be doing. They should be going down this road. They should be actively working to transform how they issue credentials, how they're issuing them to a learner, and then how employers can make the connection between what they need and then what a learner has. What a learner needs to do is to ask for their credentials to be issued digitally, right? Go to their to their provider, whether it's a community college or a Goodwill or whoever it may be. And say, thank you, this piece of paper is wonderful, can I get that credential in a digital format? Can I hold this differently so that I can actually have control of it and be able to share it because I want to make sure employers know what I've earned. So there is an advocacy piece that learners and students should be taking and should be acting on. It's a hard thing for a learner to do, right? To to say to the to the registrar or the admissions officer, yeah, that's that's great thank you, but can I get it in this format. But the more that we hear it, the more we do it, and the more they hear it, they hopefully will be acting on it. I will say that it's wonderful that organizations like AACRAO, who work with the thousands of registrars and admissions officers around the country, are leading on this issue. They are pushing this field and trying to help institutions adopt these formats. So the more we have this information there, the more easily we're going to be able to navigate it. We're going to be able to connect the skills that you have with the skills that are out there with the skills that that employers need. That sounds a little too good to be true, right? But we've made progress. I can tell you in the nine years that I've been at this work, at this organization, when I first started talking about this vision and and the idea of credential transparency and open data, people just looked at me like I was crazy. You had a good job in the Senate. Why on earth did you leave a good job in the Senate to do this, right? Now we've got the federal government talking about talent marketplaces, talking about policy changes. We have more and more companies and vendors that are offering the products and the services to make this real. We actually can have panel sessions at places like state higher ed executive officers meetings and others where people are showing up to learn how to do this. So we are seeing a shift happening. It's not going to be readily impactful for you know, a learner maybe that's leaving college now. But I am hopeful that those students that are entering middle school now, as they get to high school, we're going to be in a position where they're being issued digital badges and digital credentials into their own learning and employment record. And they're never going to know a difference. They're never going to know that Travelocity didn't exist, Kayak didn't exist before, I had to actually go see a travel agent. We're going to help them enter a different world as they enter high school and then post-secondary because we're making these moves now.
Julian Alssid: It feels like it still is the wild west. But we're beginning you've got this massive data, thanks thanks to you and others. And we're able to mobilize and move on these multiple fronts. Is that a fair characterization?
Scott Cheney: It is a fair characterization and and you know, there is a little bit of wild west still out there, but we're beginning to see organization out of chaos. We're beginning to see structure. We're beginning to see ways to have a map across that wild west. And to have known pathways and to not be afraid to veer off because you're not sure because you can see, I'm going for this credential. I also, people always ask, you know, there's 1.8 million is too many. Well, maybe. There are credentials that are out there that probably aren't that great. And that they should be ended. But that's the decision of whoever is providing them. If the if whoever is running that community college, whoever is running that industry certification feels like there's a reason they have it on their book still, okay. What I'm more impressed by is the fact that we have a really dynamic economy. And we have as someone I think Kaitlin you said, that there are skills now being needed that we never knew about before. That's fabulous. Right? It means we have an innovative dynamic economy that is constantly pushing the margins. And education is always going to lag behind, right? Because the economy should be more dynamic than we can keep up with. That's a good thing for the economy. We're just trying to shorten the time. And those information signals and and to get credentials created. And sometimes it's simply a different packaging of skills and that's a new credential, but the skills existed. Sometimes they're brand new skills. Either way, we're working to make sure that the information is being made available quickly, you can translate it, you can get that job. We just keep this really virtuous cycle going. And if we pass 2 million, I'm not going to sweat it. What I want to know is what are the skills in those credentials and how does it translate into whatever pathway an individual is taking. And if we have that information and we can help people navigate, you can navigate 10 credentials, you can navigate a million credentials because you have the information you need.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, it sounds like the momentum is there as you said, right? I mean, no time like the present to take this very innovative moment in our economy to to drive a lot of this other this really important work forward. So as we wind down today's conversation Scott, how can our listeners learn more uh, and continue to follow your work at Credential Engine?
Scott Cheney: You can, you can get more information on our website, credentialengine.org. Importantly too, everything we do, everything we do is done openly and transparently. It's not just the mission we're about, but it's how we operate. So whenever we're doing updates to our data schema, whenever we're making policy decisions, we do them through open collaborative efforts. We call them task groups. So I would encourage anyone to get involved. You know, go to our website, get on our mailing list, see what task groups we're working on. It could be, we just finished a task group on better information about transfer. We've done ones on updating terminology around different types of certificates. We've done them as we try and expand globally to make sure that what we're doing here, we understand how terms are used internationally. So anyone from around the globe can join a task group, can be a part of this effort, and to make sure that that we're doing this collectively. We welcome all voices.
Kaitlin LeMoine: Well Scott, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. It's really it is such a welcome update and such an incredibly important work. So we we certainly look forward to tracking and to checking back in and seeing how things are going...
Scott Cheney: Well I really appreciate the time to join you today. It's been a pleasure um, as you can tell I get a little enthusiastic about the work because I do think it is making a difference and it is going to transform how we how we help people navigate this entire space and their own well-being.
Julian Alssid: Thank you so much for your time Scott. Great to see you.
Scott Cheney: Thank you all.
