The government shutdown continues as Trump and the Democrats battle over the border wall. Who is winning? Which side makes the stronger immigration argument? Ross Douthat, Michelle Goldberg and David Leonhardt debate. Later, they discuss why America is so afraid of female leaders, and why Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez makes the Republicans so bananas.
For background reading on this episode, visit nytimes.com/theargument.
Warning: this episode contains explicit language.
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