This week we have the pleasure of interviewing another friend. Vernon Boldick shares with us the details of his journey preparing to enter the seminary and the priesthood of the Catholic church, only to find his faith shaken. He tells us his story of religious and philosophical reflection that led him from devout Catholicism to atheism. Becoming more involved in his faith in high school, by University Vernon felt called to be a priest, even though he was reluctant. When its evident the priesthood isn't for him, Vernon goes on a spiritual and intellectual journey to figure out what he truly believes.
Spoiler alert: Today he's an atheist (and a bit of a nihilist). The journey is what we're here for.
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[00:00:12] Preston Meyer: All right. I see the red dot. That must mean we were recording now.
[00:00:16] Katie Dooley: Yeah. We're live. Preston, how are you?
[00:00:19] Preston Meyer: I'm doing great. How are you, Katie?
[00:00:21] Katie Dooley: I'm awesome. Mostly because we have another guest today on the.
[00:00:26] Both Speakers: Holy Watermelon podcast.
[00:00:30] Preston Meyer: I don't think we synced up very well at all this time. Oh, well.
[00:00:33] Katie Dooley: No, it's hard when we're recording. Welcome to Vernon. Vernon is...
[00:00:38] Preston Meyer: Hi!
[00:00:39] Katie Dooley: Vernon is a good friend of mine. I didn't ask you for a bio. What do you want us to tell people about yourself before we get into the nitty gritty of your.
[00:00:48] Vernon Boldick: Oh. Thank you. Uh, yeah. My name is Vernon. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be on the Holy Watermelon Podcast. I heard a lot of good things. Listened to it. Uh, something to subscribe to. I a little bit about me. So my background is really theater and acting and performance. Um, and as we're going to talk about Catholic Church as well. And so we got a lot of, uh, you know, that's I think, a good place to play my background is that I really like to perform, and I think that's part of what attracted me to what we're going to talk about.
[00:01:21] Katie Dooley: Awesome. Do you want to talk about any current projects or want to leave? Want to leave that out?
[00:01:27] Vernon Boldick: Uh, I'm going to leave it out for now, but I appreciate the general, uh, offer to promote myself within your show.
[00:01:34] Katie Dooley: I mean...
[00:01:35] Preston Meyer: No shame
[00:01:36] Katie Dooley: Right? We promote ourselves every episode.
[00:01:39] Vernon Boldick: As you should. Uh, click like, if you like this.
[00:01:44] Katie Dooley: I mean, yeah, seriously. Click like. Uh, yeah. So we're going to get started. We wanted to have Vernon on our podcast because he's had a really interesting journey from the Catholic Church, and now he identifies as an atheist. But you got really deep into the Catholic Church. Is that the right way to word it?
[00:02:07] Vernon Boldick: You know, it's funny. People will say stuff like that. And I'm like, no, not really. But like, I guess I did compared to a lot of people like you don't think it when you're living it. It's like, this is just who I am. I'm just a guy who does rosary every day and goes to church and prays multiple times a day, and that's just who I am. And people are like, oh, that's really extreme. I'm like, no, but I guess on vantage point, yeah. To me, I was just another guy.
[00:02:34] Preston Meyer: An awful lot of people only go to church on Christmas and Easter. So relatively speaking, to go as far as you did. That's extreme for a lot of people.
[00:02:44] Vernon Boldick: Yeah, it really is. And you don't think about that. You're right. Like the C and E Christians as they're called, right?
[00:02:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Vernon Boldick: And uh, or whatever term, there's lots out there. And, uh, we always hated those ones, right? Because they're not the true. Judge them. When when every time you're in mass, you're like, "you're not here normally. Get out of here!" That's how Jesus would have wanted it, right?
[00:03:08] Preston Meyer: Those are just great days for collection.
[00:03:10] Vernon Boldick: I think.
[00:03:12] Katie Dooley: Yeah, you're.
[00:03:12] Vernon Boldick: The Catholic Church needs more money, so I'm glad that they're getting it.
[00:03:18] Katie Dooley: So, I mean, let's start off. Were you raised in a Catholic household? What was your childhood like?
[00:03:25] Vernon Boldick: Oh, man. I get in a therapy session for.
[00:03:27] Katie Dooley: I mean, good thing your wife's a therapist.
[00:03:30] Vernon Boldick: Yeah. So it's weird, you know, like, yes and no. Like, I was definitely raised in a Christian household, and it was Catholic, but it wasn't Catholic. It was. My dad was United. My mom was Catholic. Uh, my dad eventually kind of lost. Lost favor? Not favor, but he just didn't like the United Church after a while, he felt that they were a bit. They weren't a good place to raise your children in. And so we were raised in the Catholic Church, but at the same time, we we never went like, I wasn't, uh, baptized in the Catholic Church or confirmed until I was 16 years old. Right. It was never like it was something to do, but it was never the thing. So yeah, I was raised in a Christian household, but I got more of my my Christian upbringing from my, my Nana, uh, my mom's mom, uh, who was very Catholic and, uh, definitely was one of my first memories, uh, with God and religion comes with a memory of with her. And I would say after that, once my sister got to university, I was in grade nine or so, grade 11, no, grade nine. And then she joined, uh, Christian or Christian Catholic Outreach, CCO, which is uh, group that's on university campuses across Canada. I think maybe in the States that those two were CCO, and my Nana were probably my two biggest Catholic influences, even more than my parents or the household that I was raised in.
[00:04:56] Preston Meyer: Okay, so at what point did you decide to devote your life to God a little bit more.
[00:05:02] Vernon Boldick: I was thinking, you know, like, when did I decide to devote my... And I think everybody probably has different answers. Like, if you're a born again Christian, maybe you have this eureka moment when the light shines through your window and you're like, ah, God is speaking to me. I never I can't say I had that. I had moments for sure when I have memories, but when I have moments when I have memories, I have moments that were definitely affected me from a religious sense. But I also had like on a daily basis when you would just renew yourself with God, right? And it would be a chance to reopen that relationship and to build that relationship like that. First time I prayed again with my Nana visiting her cottage in Hidden Valley just by Siksika Nation, uh, down, uh, by Strathmore down in Alberta. Siksika Nation is a wonderful place and they are a wonderful First Nation here in Canada. A bunch of bunch of stuff just in the news about them really quickly, where they just got a bunch of their artifacts back from, from the United Kingdom, which is fantastic. That's a side note that I think is really exciting. But yeah, so I was with my grandma, my nana, and we were praying and she I never she taught me to pray and taught me who God was. And I hated it. I didn't want to pray to God. I wanted to play games. I didn't want anything to do with God. I was 5 or 6. I had no interest in God. But I ended up praying that night and I remembered that. And I remember, you know, growing up, I was never the cool kid. I was never the popular kid. I was very much an outsider. And so I would often find myself praying to God. And God had been the one, you know, friend I had. And so I would talk to God and speak to God. And I remember having dreams where I'd see Jesus or I'd see different, um, religious kind of things with religious connotations. I felt that that was God talking to me and speaking to me. And I remember one time, the first time I was probably about 19. I had this dream, and in this dream I was, I was... It didn't feel like a dream. I had been laying in bed and I wasn't asleep. And then all of a sudden my room went black. It was midday, but the room went black. And then I just felt this. This thing on my chest, just trying to gnaw and scratch into it and break into it and it was... I interpreted it as a demon trying to break into me and gnaw me, and I felt like I must be on the right path. If demons are attacking me, and I didn't really learn about sleep paralysis until much later, and really, that's what that was, was a moment of sleep paralysis. Um, but I would continue to have sleep paralysis on a multiple times in a month as I grew, as you know, in my, my early 20s and late teens and for a while first, when it started, I was very much a religious experience to me. And so that's another thing that I would count towards that. And of course, I think the biggest one that, uh, religious experience to me, uh, was on a trip with uh with CCO, Christian Catholic Outreach, we'll give them a shout out here. And um, I was in grade 11, so I actually wasn't in university, but my sister was going to Vancouver on a retreat called Rise Up, which is their big Christmas get together, where you get all the university students to a hotel and celebrating God. And so my sister asked if I wanted to join, and I said, yeah, why not? I mean, I Vancouver is pretty cool as a kid, and I grew up in a town of 300 people, so it was really cool to go to Vancouver. But I went to this, this retreat to Rise Up and I remember, like, praying cause I was in grade 11 and you're like, what am I going to do with my life? I'm going to do I go to university? Grade 12. Right up next, what am I doing with my life? And I prayed and I prayed and I prayed and I said, God, what do you want me to do with my life? Send me a sign. I need something, please. And the next day, no sign. Nothing happened. So I was like, oh, well, I'll just, uh, I'll keep trying to figure it out. And then eventually it got the next day. I actually had a priest come up to me and just randomly say, you should be a priest. Now, I don't know if priests just do this and this is the way they recruit. They go up to young men and say, hey, you look like a good priest. But to me, that was that sign from God. And it was very much a real moment for me and at the same time, I'd been sharing a hotel room with two other men who were in the seminary and just really just kind of hit me. I'm like, yeah, this is definitely God speaking to me, saying, you should go be a priest and you should go to the seminary. Um, and I didn't like that. I really didn't want to be a priest. I it's not that I was in any way like a ladies man or anything like that. I was terrified of women. I had never had a girlfriend at that time in my life. Um, I didn't know how to speak to women. And I didn't want to be a priest because I really wanted a relationship. You know, it was an interesting time. And so I fought that. I fought it for quite a while. Um, because it happened in grade 11, and I didn't actually end up going to seminary until what would have been my second or third year of university. Really? So, you know, 3 or 4 years in between that first calling and actually taking the plunge.
[00:10:06] Preston Meyer: Wow. Cool.
[00:10:08] Katie Dooley: I was just going to say, has everyone seen It's Always Sunny and Rickety Cricket? Is that you, Vernon?
[00:10:18] Vernon Boldick: I can't confirm or deny.
[00:10:21] Preston Meyer: Oh, no. Oh. Poor Cricket.
[00:10:25] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Oh, boy. Sorry you had another question, Preston?
[00:10:32] Preston Meyer: So what is the difference between Discernment House and Seminary?
[00:10:37] Vernon Boldick: Oh, that's a great question. Okay. So the Discernment House and a seminary, a seminary is where you actually go and you take your classes and you do all your work. And I think it's like 7 or 8 years. And I think you get a master's in theology, or you do all that work and it's really, you know, it's like a Priest's university, if you will. It's where you go to learn discernment house is you don't stay there nearly as long. You're not even there probably for a year. And really, it's a place where you you go and it's kind of like the seminary with training wheels. Right? And you kind of go and talk. There's a priest there. He's a leader, he's a guide. And you talk with him. You take part in doing mass and doing all these different things. And you think a lot about is the priesthood where I want to go, do I actually want to go to seminary? And so, um, it's kind of like that first step to the priesthood and not, not not all all seminarians go to the discernment house. Some go right to the seminary because they just they know. Um, so it's kind of it's it's an option.
[00:11:40] Preston Meyer: Like an aptitude test.
[00:11:43] Vernon Boldick: It... You know what, as we're going to talk about this, it very much so.
[00:11:47] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:11:48] Vernon Boldick: Um, I yeah.
[00:11:50] Preston Meyer: I don't think I've ever actually heard of a discernment house. I've heard of a lot of people who just go to seminary, and maybe some of them did the Discernment House thing. I don't know, but I don't think I've ever heard of it in discussion.
[00:12:00] Vernon Boldick: I think by and far, I think most people just go off to the seminary. Those of us who are a little bit more not sure. Uh, we'll go to the Discernment House.
[00:12:09] Preston Meyer: I guess it's a good thing that's an option that makes good sense to me.
[00:12:13] Vernon Boldick: Yeah. In in practice and in theory, it's a great idea.
[00:12:17] Katie Dooley: I have other follow-up questions, but I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Maybe we want to talk about the moment you decided to go to the Discernment House, and then I can and talk about your experiences there, then I can sure make follow-up questions.
[00:12:33] Vernon Boldick: Yeah. So I think the moments leading up to that, um, I was I was taking a psych course in university. Uh, it was an abnormal psychology class, uh, which is a fantastic class to take. And I highly recommend to anybody, uh, because then at least we can learn what to call OCD and what not to. Because most of us are saying it the wrong way, but that's a whole nother story. As I just read, I'm sorry about that. So I was taking this abnormal psychology class and I had a paper and it was to do, you know, pick whatever and do a do a write up on it. So I picked schizoid personality disorder. I found it very interesting and I was really wanting to learn more about it. And so like any good kid that would do in like 2010, I just went to YouTube and typed in schizoid personality disorder. I didn't know where to start my research, and I came across this girl who's about a year older than me, who in the video she talked about having schizoid personality disorder. Now, she did not have schizoid personality disorder. And she would later on say, yeah, I didn't have that. I thought I did, didn't. And she was just amazing, interesting person. Uh, she was in Australia and I just found myself enamoured with her. I very much had a crush, I would say. But everything she talked about. And then I found out she was an atheist who had once been Christian. And Katie, how dare she! The nerve! And I found that. I thought that was so interesting. And I would listen to her. And we actually had a lot of good conversations talking about religion and talking about, like, Batman comics and everything from there to here. And it was really, it was really nice. And the more I talked to her, the more I felt compelled by God to go to the seminary. And I'll tell you a funny story with that, too. Like, you start to see how humans are fantastic seeing patterns. Right? And so I started to see patterns in everything. I saw patterns in like she was from Australia. And I would go into Wikipedia and there'd be all these stories about Australia and like, how is this not God talking to me? It is kind of where I was at. And and you kind of laugh, but like, you really you feel that because it is God. And that's what makes sense, even if it is not right. And you learn about all these things, about pattern recognition later on. And, you know, I remember like, yeah, just weird things like looking at the tires and seeing the tires would have her name on it, on people's cars. And I'd be like, whoa. And it just so happens that there's a Kelly tire. And, you know, lots of cars have those, but you didn't recognize that it's a sign from God. So I kind of felt like at that point I was like, okay, I can't ignore this. I was doing not so great at university. And the professor for the that class was actually a Catholic professor. And she kind of went and we talked about it and she was kind of like really inspired me to do that as well. Now, at the same time, one thing you don't know about discernment houses maybe, or even seminaries at least this is how it was for me. I don't know if it's how it was for everybody. I actually had to get a priest to recommend me to go to the Discernment House. So I had to go and speak to a priest who had gotten a pretty good relationship with, who had also been a professor at the university. His name was Father Ed, and he is a really good man, a fantastic man. If we have time, I can tell you. Father Ed's joke that he told me the first time I met him, it's really good and I think people find it really funny. But I don't want to. We don't want to get too much off track, but it's a great joke. Uh, coming... An you remember when I tell you it's coming from a Catholic priest. So he he was kind of like the bad boy, Catholic priest, Father Ed. The university students, because the way it was, I went to the University of Saskatoon and it's, uh, partnered with Saint Thomas Moore College, and they're both right there. Saint Thomas More College, obviously Catholic. I... They would offer mass. And if Father Ed was there, all the CC0 people didn't like him. They would leave because he wasn't a true Catholic. Uh, he didn't believe in he or he believed rather in gay marriage. He believed in abortion. He was he was the priest who taught those things. So he actually maybe this is kind of somewhat, uh, a sign here that this man is telling saying, yeah, Vernon should go, uh, to become a priest. So he gave that and he sent it off to the to the Discernment House and they approved it, and I ended up there. Uh, and I think it was September of 2010 or 2009. I can't remember, but that's when I ended up at the Discernment House.
[00:16:58] Katie Dooley: And then what happened?
[00:17:01] Vernon Boldick: Uh, I just don't I can keep speaking, but I don't want to, like, you know, an hour later and you're like, hey, Vernon, we have questions.
[00:17:09] Katie Dooley: No, my questions still need your experience at the Discernment House.
[00:17:13] Preston Meyer: Okay, good.
[00:17:13] Katie Dooley: Unless Preston wants to jump in with anything.
[00:17:15] Preston Meyer: I think if you just keep talking for an hour, hopefully in that time you'll cover our questions. Go for it.
[00:17:21] Vernon Boldick: It might happen. So, yeah, I went off to the discernment house, and I remember as I was traveling, it was in Calgary and I was still in Saskatoon at university, and I was driving my lovely Pontiac Wave to the... From Saskatoon to Calgary, which is about a seven-hour drive of flat, flat prairie. Uh, and then for a little bit, you get some hoodoos, uh, but mostly flat prairie. And I just remember, like, I was going, uh, having this conversation in my head about, okay, I'm going the discernment house, I'm doing God's will, and I have this relationship with God. And God has shown me so many times that this is what he wants. And I've tried to run from it. Right. And we think of all the prophets and all the people in the Bible, and they run from God and God's, "no, you're going to go here", right? We read all those stories, and you can't help but think, this is my story, too. And you really start to personalize it because it is personal. It's yours. And I start going off on this trip and I'm just like, I just probably for about an hour, I start shouting like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. I do not want to do this. And just expletives like everywhere. I truly didn't want to do it, but I felt compelled. I felt called by God. I felt that this was and I wasn't doing great in university. I wasn't interested in what I was. I was taking psychology and I just wasn't interested in writing papers. I'm still not interested in writing papers. I think psychology is a phenomenal field. I know it's a great field. Anyways, I just I needed something and this was just something that I got was God. And I remember, like, at one point in university, I'd been walking around campus and I was like, I need to be good at something. If if I want to grow and and be successful, I need to be good at something. I was thinking about what am I good at? And the only thing I could come up with is I'm good at being Catholic. I follow all the rules and I have a really good relationship with God. I pray and I love God. God loves me and we're so close. And I have these beautiful moments in prayer when I. I find myself in tears because I just feel. I feel God's presence. I feel him enveloping me. And it's so poignant and so powerful. How could I be anything but called to be good with God, and to follow God, and to pray and to and to tell his stories and to, to, to to go and feed the hungry and help the sick and to go find that one, right? And there's that one song I was listening to about. I forget what it's called, one of those Christian groups. It's probably from Hillsong, to be honest. If you watch that Hillsong documentary. Um, so it was just all these powerful things in my mind, in my heart, where I felt like, I don't want this, but God will make sense of it for me. And it was that ability, like, that's what you're taught, right? Like, follow God, be humble, allow yourself to to give up your free will. Right? And God will give you riches you cannot imagine. Right? And and I've always been like, I read the Bible, I've read the complete Bible. And it's like I, I wasn't very Christian. I read the whole Bible. Like how many Christians read the whole Bible like, and I and I would go to like Bible studies and I would do all this. And it was just in this moment as I'm driving from Saskatoon to Calgary. I didn't want to be there, but I felt I felt God was with me and I felt God would make sense of all this and God would help me. So I... To this discernment house in Calgary. So my parents actually came with me to drop me off because they're loving parents. We actually went to, uh, Japanese Village that night to celebrate, little shout out for Japanese Village, and we then went to the seminary or to the Discernment House rather. I dropped off, I moved in, and I met the head priest there, and I'd met him before, a few times before. He was. He's well known. Uh, the way the Catholic Church works is there's dioceses. So the Calgary diocese is where this is centered in. And I had grown up in the Calgary diocese. Uh, even though it was a small town that, uh, covers quite a large area. And so I had known this priest for a while. We'd had been connected. My nana knew him. Uh, she thought very highly of this man. Uh, she had gone to, uh, a pilgrimage with him to Rome many years ago. Uh, so he was a he was a very well respected priest, and I, I met him, and I paint this picture, I think, to give everything justice. You have to remember, like I was even though I'd been in Saskatoon. Saskatoon was a big city to me, right? Imagine what Calgary was. But here I was. And part of the part of the thing that you had to do, they wanted you to have a job when you got to the Discernment House. Now, I hadn't had a job. I was just finished university, uh, or finished that those semesters. And so I hadn't actually, I'd applied for some, but I hadn't had a job yet. So that was, I think, one thing where he saw was like, that's not good. You were supposed to have that by now. Um, I think that might have been a failing in his eye. And I can't say that for sure, because he also said not everybody gets a job right away and you can take your time to get it. But he was a tall, intimidating man. Uh, he he was a lawyer, uh, before he became a priest. He was a smart man. And I was terrified of him. Just terrified and not because he did or said anything to me, but because I tend to give people a lot of respect if I admire them and if I want to be like them. And so I didn't know how to act around him because I just wanted to impress him. I don't know if I ever did. Uh, my one of my very first things that I remember with him was, uh, he was gone and the phone was ringing, and I was like, do I answer the phone? Do I let the phone go to message? And I was having an anxie--, like, anxiety about this. Like, Will he be mad if I don't answer it? Should I answer it? It shows boldness if I answer it right. So I should definitely answer it so he can see that I'm I'm an initiative type of man. So I went and answered it and I took a message. And uh, later that day he said, just let it go to voicemail. I felt so defeated. So I ended up, you know, having, uh, I spent four and a half days at the discernment house before he kind of came to me and said, Vernon, can you come into my office? Once that happened, like, you kind of get that sinking feeling. You're like, oh, something's not right. Because that's not the way that this normally goes. Now every day what we do is first thing in the morning, you get up and you do mass together. You have Eucharist, which is very important in the Catholic tradition. You would, uh, have an opportunities to have time to be just with the Eucharist as well. And just in, in, in, in no one else around you and just to be with God. And so that's how I spent most of my evenings. And there was a library. So I spent a lot of time reading, and I spent some time talking with him, too. We talked about just trying to get to know each other. You know, he was a big Raiders fan. I wasn't much of a football fan at the time, but it's good to know. I remember that we talked about hockey. We talked about working out. We talked about all kinds of things. We talked about, you know, what I was feeling and how I was feeling I was doing at the Discernment House. And when I was going to get a job, I was applying to a lot of places like I would one time I took I called a taxi because, uh, I was I didn't know Calgary very well, so I thought I'd take a taxi and go. I figured if I was going to going to go drop off resumes or whatever. And so then there's a taxi at the door and he says, who called a taxi? And I said, oh, I did, and apparently I had answered him in a way that he felt was very disrespectful. And I would learn this later. Um, so I think we got off to this wrong foot kind of situation where I just don't think he understood who I was or, you know, my fear of him, my intimidation, being intimidated of him. I think maybe he saw that as me being rude or disrespectful. So this day comes and he says, come into my office. I'm like, oh, okay. And he's just starting to start, like grilling me, you know, asking me what kind of music do I listen to? What if in saying that I have an attitude problem and that I would be I bring, I bring, I'd separate a church if I was ever a part of it, I'd wreck it, I'd wreck havoc on it. And then he asked me if I'd ever been a member of the occult, which was an interesting moment. I hadn't been, and I was just terrified of the man. So I was basically in tears at this point. I just, you know, it kind of hits you and you're like, I'm not wanted here. And he talks about going to talk to Bishop Henry at the time in Calgary. And for those who don't know, Bishop Henry was the bishop of the Calgary diocese. And he was, uh, very outspoken, uh, for family values, family traditions. Very... People know Bishop Henry when they hear that name. So he talked about the bishop to the bishop about me, which is insane that like, why is little old Vernon matter enough to the bishop? But apparently I did, which is kind of neat and cool. And the bishop and him kind of felt like that maybe this wasn't my calling. And so I was very much encouraged to leave after four and a half days. And, you know, it hurt me at the time. And I was in a lot of pain and a lot like I cried and cried and cried. And my aunt, uh, came and picked me up. Which I was very grateful for, uh, shout out to Auntie Margo. And so I kind of camped out at her house for a little while, but I remember, like, later on, you know, four and a half days, and this guy's telling me, like, I have an attitude problem. I have this and that. And really, I was just a frightened child who had never been in a big city. And not to say I'll just if he was, I'd love for him to be on here and say, you know, Vernon, this is the perspective I had. And I actually I did call him up two years later to talk about this. And we'll get to that. I'd love to hear his perspective because I don't get what happened. I, I do not get what happened. Like I didn't like sorry to the viewers. Um, but I like to make this joke like I'm like a 20-year-old boy at this time, man, young man. And, you know, I went like a week without masturbating. Like, that was hard. Like, I was really involved with this. Like, I was trying my best. I don't think he realized that. And maybe I should have said, you know, Father Myles, I haven't masturbated for a week for you. Uh, well, for, you know. But I didn't say that. Maybe I could say that now.
[00:27:35] Preston Meyer: Would it have helped?
[00:27:40] Vernon Boldick: I mean, I don't know. Maybe I went a week and I shouldn't have. Who knows? Um, but, yeah, like a lot of people, like my friends and family from this will wonder, like what happened in there. And I don't have an answer as to what happened. You know, you read like, uh, or like, this was going with my earlier, and I got off on a tangent. I met a gentleman years later who had been in and out of jail and done all kinds of things, and he went and found himself at a Bible school. And, uh, the, the pastor in charge of the Bible school kept on letting him come back and come back after mistake after mistake after mistake. And I'm like, that's isn't that more of Jesus to be like, hey, you messed up, but I forgive you and I love you opposed to "have you been in the occult?" Right? And it's like these two versions of men of God are very different. But I mean, I think I definitely have some anger still at what happened to me, because I felt like there was an injustice done. So I do come here with a lot of bias to your listeners who are wondering, I know I'm very biased and I'd love to hear his idea of what happened. I did call him up two years later because I just I wanted to get this out of me because it just didn't sit right. This whole experience, because I'm not a bad person, I'm I'm not disobedient. I'm not, well, maybe I'm now, I'm not I don't have an attitude problem again maybe I do now. I wouldn't bring dissension upon a church. I love the church. And so I called him up a couple years later, and he just one of the first things he said to me was like, just talking to me. He's like, I can tell that you're a very different person now. And you, you you sound a lot more mature. And I just... How can you tell that from a phone call? And where is that coming from? And like, I was that same person, I hadn't changed. I had not changed at all and very fact, like I definitely have changes in my life, but I still feel very much the same person today that I was back then. You know, I'm a lot more social. I'm a lot more confident in who I am. But the base values have not changed.
[00:29:51] Katie Dooley: Um, could you describe like, is it discernment house? Like just a house, like a single family home? Or is it like a dormitory? Like what is like paint a picture for our listeners.
[00:30:03] Vernon Boldick: Yeah, that's a great question. So it was a house. It has a backyard. It had a barbecue. We would barbecue our meals. Um, there I think there's like 4 or 5 rooms. There was a bit of a library in it. There was... It was right next to a lovely Korean church, our Korean Catholic Church. And that's where we would do our mass right next door to it. It was it was. Yeah. It was very much a family home. It was, uh, you know, I had my own bedroom. I had a bathroom downstairs to myself. But it was really just like there's a laundry there. And if, you know, like in schools, they have like the they're separated the stalls. It was just a toilet stall like that. And that was my bathroom downstairs. So it hadn't been renovated, but it was just a it was just a house.
[00:30:46] Katie Dooley: Okay. I was just curious.
[00:30:48] Vernon Boldick: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and like, I, like I said, I spent a lot of time at my time just reading. And maybe that was one thing. Maybe I wasn't social enough because I kind of. I was scared of everyone. I spent a lot of time just reading. And at this time, too, I was, um and this is why I think a lot of people don't know who know me. I was already starting to question, uh, some of the Catholic teachings. Prior to that, I had had a... I was in. Oh, my terrible... I forget all my Catholic, uh, sacraments here when I was confessing my sins to a priest and I confessed that, uh, I, I was questioning God, and I questioned Catholicism. I talked to them and I thought, like, I'm definitely going to have some type of penance to do here. And I remember him saying, and this is a different priest. He said, you know, Vernon, it's okay to question this. You're going to. That's normal. And I walked away with that being like, huh? And I continued doing a lot of questioning. This girl who I mentioned earlier from Australia, who was who had at one point done the schizoid video, schizoid personality. She, um, I think I start questioning a lot from her, too, and seeing her path that she took. Starting to question my own faith. And I, as Catholics, the Catholic Church as a whole accepts evolution. I grew up in a house that didn't believe in evolution, so I didn't believe in evolution. I remember I was I was really interested in this, and I felt that the the right answer like, if evolution was real, then how could God be real? And I was reading all kinds of books. Um, I remember the one that I read, uh, by Carl Sagan was, I forget the title of it... Uh, Dragons of Eden or Dragons of Paradise, I can't remember. And reading about evolution in there. And that started to really change my direction and started me on the road of questioning. You know, if evolution is real and if all these things have happened, how can God be real? And then, you know, reading books about the universe and how the universe began, it got very, very philosophical. And I didn't at first, you know, I was doing this while I was at the Discernment House. I don't think that he ever picked up. We never talked about it, and I wouldn't have a lot of books that said, hey, I'm questioning everything right now. And maybe he picked up on it in a way that I could never know. Maybe God told him. He said, this guy is not right. So I, I left that and I was still questioning my faith even throughout that whole experience. And that really, I think, kind of shook it too, as I started to see this and I started thinking about all these different people who call themselves Christians, who really didn't practice in the way of Christ. And it just disillusioned me more and more and more. And I thought, well, maybe. And maybe I'm not a religious Christian. Maybe I'm a spiritual Christian, a non-denominational Christian. That's what all the cool kids are. They can tell themselves how great they are without having to say they're religious. I did a bunch of readings on that. I went to some other churches. I remember I went to I went to an Alliance church. I went to all kinds of different churches. I started reading the Quran. I started reading the Bhagavad Gita, the Talmud, everything, every kind of religious text. I was searching for answers. And I, I lost that, that faith in Christianity. And I a couple times like it came back, right? Because I didn't want to let it go. It was so important to me. It was literally my core. It was who I was. It's how I identified. And I think anytime a person loses their identity is tragic, because if you don't have an identity, what do you have? And I remember one time just praying to this God I no I no longer believed in saying, I don't want to wake up tomorrow. It was too hard to believe to, to, to. It was too hard to live because the promises that God gives you are amazing. Like eternal life. Being with your family, being with your loved ones, getting to see the progression of humanity, the fact that justice will be done. I mean, those to me were were so great and to lose all of this was... I lost myself. And I think for a time I definitely had a period of of depression. I was never I never went to a therapist to diagnose me with that. But, uh, from what I know of depression, I was very much depressed. I didn't go outside, I didn't eat, I didn't talk to people, I slept, and I slept some more. I didn't I didn't know how to function. Yeah, it was just it was it was a painful experience. Like, I do not wish that on anyone. Losing your your faith. Losing God is the worst thing that can happen in my mind to a person. When you have that relationship, there's nothing better to believe that there's this being who loves you unconditionally and wants the best for you and is walking there with you. And this being is all mighty and all powerful. And to lose that was was literally to lose myself. And so I probably went for, you know, 2 or 3 years of just this back and forth of, okay, I'm a non-denominational Christian. Oh, I know, maybe I'm a deist. You know, maybe there's a God once, but he kind of left us. Um, maybe I'm agnostic and then maybe I'm an atheist. And then at this point, when I'm kind of getting to be an atheist, I ended up meeting this, this lovely young woman and falling in love with her. And she was very Christian. And her, her Christian faith was very important to her. And so I wanted to have that so that I could connect with her in that way. So I started going to church again. I started reading all these, like these, these, these books that by Christian authors and doing all that I could. And in the end, it just it didn't work. I couldn't I couldn't go back to Christianity. I couldn't go back to religion because I just felt that it was not scientifically accurate. It was it was outdated and it was it wasn't who I was anymore. And so I needed to go become who I was. And that took some time to figure out that. I think that's still something I still learn. You know, I, I, I remember like seeing and talking to people about their changes of faith, whether becoming religious or leaving religion. And I always I'm so fascinated by these people's stories because some of them change it so fast and so quickly. Some of them are like ten years old and they're like, I knew this. Then I was like, wow, I did not. Um, either way, right, to become religious or to leave religion. And some people, it takes a lifetime. And for me, I find I definitely ascribe myself to atheism and I, I still have moments where it's like, that really sucks because I don't like what that means for the future, because it means that, you know, I'm a very much a nihilistic atheist where it's like, well, I don't know if good will happen. I don't know. And then, of course, you know, I debate this like, oh, you have so you say good. Well, that must mean, right? And you kind of like, have these internal I have these internal dialogs all the time. But yeah, that's kind of a very quick and fast story to where I am now and how I got there.
[00:38:04] Katie Dooley: I totally feel you, Vernon. I think I was saying to Preston the other day, it's like, I don't like that there's nothing after this, but it is what it is. That doesn't mean I don't. It's not a nice belief to hold, but it's the belief I hold. Morbid, but yeah, that's what it is, right?
[00:38:21] Vernon Boldick: It's like I would absolutely wish to have something better than this because it's not fun. It's not great. It was it was so lovely to have those times when you could pray to God and and you felt like I said, like I would truly have moments where my eyes like I would maybe this is I should get my eyes checked, but like, I would have these moments when my like, my eyes would become this luminous light would be around me and I would have these moments of just being feeling warm inside and just these, these transcendent moments of just feeling God's love. And you're like, go and learn about your brain and brain chemistry and and how your brain can do all kinds of wonderful things. I happen to choose to believe that that is, you know, neurons and all these different things, synapses firing. Some people decide to believe that that's God. And I mean, I don't... We disagree, but hopefully we can live together in some type of harmony.
[00:39:17] Preston Meyer: Belief is a pretty tricky thing. I'm inclined to believe that a lot of the things that that we believe aren't chosen, but they're just kind of hoisted upon us as we see evidence for things. When you have, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? A lack of evidence. Because the other word I'm looking for. If you don't see the evidence that you're looking for, it's hard to believe in the thing that that evidence should be testifying of. So losing faith is perfectly reasonable, it would seem, since there's not a lot of solid, concrete, empirical evidence of very many religious doctrines.
[00:39:57] Katie Dooley: It's called faith.
[00:39:58] Vernon Boldick: And that's that's the big thing, right? At the end of the day, I think if you are religious, the only way that I can truly understand someone being religious is, it is faith. They decide to say, I don't know, I can't know, I trust, and I have faith. Right? Because if we I if we debate it from a purely empirical lens, I don't think you can prove it. It has to be something that is faith. And maybe there's people out there saying, no, you, you're wrong. And this and I'd love to hear I don't know if I actually would, but there's lots of people with a really good. And that's the one thing I started doing right, is I read these books. I read by all these really intelligent authors, and I came to this point where I was like, there are people who are far more intelligent than me, which isn't that hard, that are going to be Christian, they're going to be Muslim, they're going to be Jewish. They're also going to be atheists. And there are people who are a lot dumber than me, who are all going to be all those as well. And it's it's not a matter of intelligence and being smarter than someone. And I used to love I still love a good debate and I love going to debates. I remember one time, uh, University of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, had a debate featuring William Lane Craig, who is a well known Christian apologist. Uh, very smart man. He could debate you into a circle if he wanted. And I just like, after a while, I was like, it doesn't matter how smart you are and how intelligent you are, it is about faith. It's about making that choice, I think part of me hopes that there is something out there. I don't believe there is. But that's all you have at the end of the day. Do you have hope? Maybe. Maybe something. My hope right now is that, uh, you know, maybe many, many millennia down the road, people will be like, hey, we can bring people back to life, and I'll get brought back to life, and I can see all the wonders of humanity and where we went and where we went wrong, and how we got back up and how the the birds overruled us. And then it was the giraffes and all those other Futurama references. But that's that's kind of where I'm at now.
[00:41:55] Preston Meyer: I guess I'm a little bit of a pessimist. I see the future like that, and there's no way they'd be bringing me back.
[00:42:03] Vernon Boldick: Yeah, yeah, I just yeah.
[00:42:05] Katie Dooley: I would upload my brain to the cloud.
[00:42:08] Vernon Boldick: Right?
[00:42:09] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's the way.
[00:42:10] Katie Dooley: If that's an option, I totally would do it.
[00:42:12] Vernon Boldick: Uh, that's just going to cost lots of money so we can all see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk in the future, but maybe not ourselves.
[00:42:20] Katie Dooley: Hey, I still got like, I hope, 70 years to make a bunch of money and have the technology become cheap enough that I can upload my brain to the cloud.
[00:42:29] Vernon Boldick: Please put mine in the cloud too.
[00:42:31] Katie Dooley: Oh, absolutely.
[00:42:32] Vernon Boldick: Thank you.
[00:42:34] Preston Meyer: Our whole digital footprint, everything that we leave behind on the internet that will help inform our digital brain. So maybe we're helping you be immortal right now.
[00:42:45] Vernon Boldick: Uh, and, you know, as you mentioned, like that digital footprint. And I think, like, sometimes, like, it's so interesting, like when we think about, like, anthropology now and how we went and we dust off all these things and we learn about humans from millennia ago. But now we, like, have all these things on the internet. And you're thinking like my dumb tweet when I was in grade 12, like some poor person is going to be like, what does this mean? And then they're going to write, uh, university classes about it, and they're going to talk about all the symbolism. And all it meant was that I was horny and dumb.
[00:43:20] Preston Meyer: The universal feelings of people that age.
[00:43:25] Katie Dooley: Vernon, how has your life changed post-Christianity? Or can you talk about some of the differences in your community or your family from when you were a Catholic to now that you're an atheist?
[00:43:38] Vernon Boldick: Yeah, I mean, in some ways it hasn't changed at all. In some ways, it's changed drastically, right? I still think my core self is very much the same person. I'm a fun loving person. I like to joke around. I like to have fun. I like to just, you know, I like sports. I like all these different. All my hobbies and interests are more or less the same. You know, like all my interests are the same. Like they haven't changed drastically. I'm more I'm far more outgoing and far more confident. Like I said earlier, um, with my family, I have a very loving family, a very kind family, a very good family. It was hard for me to, you know, quote unquote, come out as an atheist, if I can use that term. But that's what it very much was. It was hard because I, I felt I was letting my family down. I felt like I was letting my parents down. I love them very much and it shows. You know, I didn't want to disappoint my parents and I felt like I was doing that. Um, and my family really likes a good debate, so of course, that comes with debate. And, uh, we would do that and but in a loving, respectful way, I would add, like it was never, you know, you need to do this, you're going to hell! I never got that from my family. I was very fortunate. A lot of people get that. I never got that I never got. You're going to get cut off from us or anything like that, like Christmas and stuff like that. I had already started being, like, hating Christmas, and I very much still do, but not because it's a Christian holiday. I hate Christmas because of the commercialism. It is so anti Jesus and I hate it for that reason I love Jesus, I love what Jesus represents, but I really hate. And I at the time I really hated Christmas. So my family is used to me not liking Christmas and other Christian holidays. You know, I... Easter. I think that Easter kind of grew out of as chocolate wasn't for you, and it was started to be for the younger kids. I didn't really care about Easter, but it was. I can't say in those senses nothing changed. But in my perspective, you know, of being hopeful and joyous. That changed. Like, I'm very much more nihilistic and I very much more hopeless general feeling. And that affects my mental health and that affects my well-being. You know, those are things that then I have to go to therapy for and talk through and work on, because that impacts me every day. Like, if you ever talk to my wife, she'll probably be like, if you ask her. Like, what are Vernon's most common thoughts? One of my very most common thoughts is death. So it's you know, I didn't have that before because it didn't matter. Death was exciting, you know, because I get to be. And that's another thing. Why isn't death more exciting to Christians and other religious people? You get to be with God, but now it's not. It's not so exciting because it's the end of everything I know. Everything I love and I really love life. There's so much beauty in it. And so much wonder in it. And it really sucks that one day I won't get this. I won't get to see where where humanity goes in the future. I won't get to see whether, you know, if we kill ourselves out with climate change or if we overcome that and we overcome aliens and all of that, I don't get I don't get to see the first time we make first contact. Um, unless Star Trek is right. And then I do. And I'm very excited for Zefram Cochrane, who might just be Elon Musk, and then maybe I'm not. But there we are. That's that's me in a nutshell. And this has been a lot of fun. So thank you.
[00:46:55] Katie Dooley: Awesome.
[00:46:56] Preston Meyer: Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:46:58] Katie Dooley: Did you want to pitch anything. Last chance.
[00:47:01] Vernon Boldick: Okay. So I do want to pitch one thing. If I can. Uh, for those of you who might have enjoyed me talking, I do have, uh, a podcast upcoming in the works, and that's going to be myself and a friend of mine that's going to be coming out, uh, probably, uh, in a month or so, we're going to have our first episode released. We're really excited for that. So, uh, I can't give you too much more details on that, but it's going to be basically two people talking and interviewing other people very much like this show, um, about a variety of topics about anything under the sun.
[00:47:34] Katie Dooley: Amazing. When it launches, please share in our Discord and we'd be happy to share it with our.
[00:47:40] Vernon Boldick: Oh yeah.
[00:47:41] Katie Dooley: Audience. Thank you.
[00:47:42] Vernon Boldick: Um, can I say hi to the discord?
[00:47:45] Katie Dooley: Yes, say.
[00:47:46] Vernon Boldick: I love I love your discord. I absolutely like the whole the Holy Watermelon discord is fantastic. So many good memes. So much like intelligent conversation. No, nobody like picking on each other or hating on each other. Uh, I absolutely love it. I wish that there was more hate mail or shade, as you call it, because.
[00:48:04] Preston Meyer: It's been awhile.
[00:48:05] Vernon Boldick: I actually don't want you to have that, but I've really enjoyed the one you had because it was funny. Yeah, I love your discord. Discord. The Holy Watermelon discord is one of the best discords I'm on.
[00:48:15] Katie Dooley: Thank you So.
[00:48:16] Preston Meyer: That's a great review. Thank you.
[00:48:18] Katie Dooley: Listeners, join us on Discord. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. We will have a part two of this interview available on our Patreon. If you want to subscribe for a small monthly fee or if a subscription model is not your thing, check out our Spreadshirt. Preston, we have some exciting stuff on our spreadshirt.
[00:48:40] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we've got all kinds of great designs, a few references, and callbacks to some of the great lines from a few episodes. We just released a brand new shirt for John the Baptist, the Hydra.
[00:48:56] Katie Dooley: Multi-headed John the Baptist.
[00:48:58] Vernon Boldick: It's very well done.
[00:48:59] Katie Dooley: It's pretty great.
[00:49:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Good stuff. So thank you very much.
[00:49:04] Both Speakers: Peace be with you.
