Our first interview episode, with the lovely and talented Sarah Snyder. She grew up in a cult, but has escaped. She isn't just surviving, she's thriving. We're proud to call her a friend, and grateful for her willingness to share her story and her advice.
The traditions that revere Jesus are diverse, and some of them are so far off the mark that they are hard to recognize as Christian. Some even abhor the Christian label, hoping to stand out as different -- It's easy to agree, when they lean into authoritarianism.
All this and more....
Trigger Warning: SA
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[00:00:13] Preston Meyer: Hi, Katie. We're doing things a little different today, aren't we?
[00:00:17] Katie Dooley: Oh, you sure are.
[00:00:19] Preston Meyer: We're recording through Zoom instead of all of our really nice software.
[00:00:24] Katie Dooley: I know, I miss you.
[00:00:26] Preston Meyer: Right? It's so weird. You're so far away.
[00:00:28] Katie Dooley: I know.
[00:00:30] Sarah Snyder: It's very nice here. I'm going to throw up in my mouth a little bit.
[00:00:33] Katie Dooley: I know, I actually think some of our listeners probably think Preston and I are married, but we're not. Definitely not.
[00:00:43] Preston Meyer: Um, I mean, a few too many people have called you the other wife.
[00:00:47] Katie Dooley: I know you say Preston is actually my second husband, not my first. So, um. Yeah.
[00:00:52] Sarah Snyder: There's a line up, right?
[00:00:56] Katie Dooley: Uh, so we're doing things differently for good reason today on the.
[00:01:01] Preston Meyer: Holy Watermelon Podcast. It feels weird not saying it synchronized.
[00:01:07] Katie Dooley: I know, because we're on Zoom. We can't. So today we have the amazing Sarah as our guest today. And Sarah is a publicist. And she's not a very good one because she didn't send us her bio. So I'm literally winging this. I'm kidding. She's one of she's the best publicist I've ever met. She has a brain I am always in envy of. And she's on our show today because she was raised in a cult.
[00:01:38] Sarah Snyder: It's true. Thank you. Except for... Except for the publicist part. It's one of those things where you. People say like the mechanic doesn't want to fix his own car. Same thing here. I'm a publicist, but I didn't want to write my own bio. That's all it is.
[00:01:51] Katie Dooley: I had that conversation about my industry like two hours ago with someone. I was like, I don't do my own stuff.
[00:01:59] Preston Meyer: But it's tricky to write your own bio like unless you know exactly who you're pitching to and exactly what they want, you're either going to overshare or undershare.
[00:02:09] Sarah Snyder: That's why people pay me. It's great. I'm like, I'll take care of this for you.
[00:02:14] Katie Dooley: So yes, after you hear Sarah's amazing story today, pay her lots of money to do publicity.
[00:02:22] Sarah Snyder: Not related, but okay, cool.
[00:02:24] Katie Dooley: Absolutely unrelated, but you may as well get something out of it.
[00:02:28] Preston Meyer: Could work out, you don't know.
[00:02:29] Sarah Snyder: That's true. You never know.
[00:02:31] Katie Dooley: You don't know who's listening. And I'll also add that Sarah's joining us from the States. We have a handful of American listeners, mostly Canadian, but maybe we'll get a few more Americans.
[00:02:42] Preston Meyer: According to Spotify Analytics, more than a third of our listeners are American.
[00:02:47] Katie Dooley: That means two-thirds are Canadian, though.
[00:02:50] Preston Meyer: No, it's not two-thirds. We've got a nice diverse bundle. We're just over half Canadian. Yeah, I pay attention to this bit.
[00:02:58] Katie Dooley: Yeah, apparently. Let's get started instead of all this preamble. So I mean, Sarah we'll take turns asking questions, like I said. And if anything, we think of anything we'd like to know more about, we'll ask you. Obviously, you don't have to answer anything you don't want to answer. And I'll put a trigger warning on this for our listeners. Sarah's not going to talk about anything she's uncomfortable with, but she will probably talk about some things that make people uncomfortable. So.
[00:03:28] Sarah Snyder: That's true. Thank you.
[00:03:30] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. So you were raised in what we would call a Christian cult. You believed and believe in Jesus and the resurrection, but they don't consider themselves Christian. Can you elaborate? Because that I'm making mind blowing gestures for our listeners.
[00:03:48] Sarah Snyder: So there's there's a few things. One, they definitely don't consider themselves a cult, and two, they do not consider themselves Christians a.
[00:03:57] Nd the reason they don't consider themselves Christians is this Christian is a worldly term, and they want to remain separate from the world. And so they don't use that term. They do believe in Jesus. They do believe that he died on the cross. Um, but they do not believe in the Trinity. Uh, they don't believe that the Holy Spirit is active and present today. They don't believe you go to heaven when you die. They don't believe you go to hell when you die. There's a lot of differences between them and the traditional, uh, Christian religion. So, uh, that that's that's hence the separation.
[00:04:29] Preston Meyer: Quite a list of really prominent differences.
[00:04:33] Sarah Snyder: That's a short list I could go on.
[00:04:37] Preston Meyer: And a lot of these. Oh, sorry. A lot of these are really quite different from what we do consider mainstream Christianity.
[00:04:45] Sarah Snyder: Yeah. And that's one of their, their big things, right? Is like there's, it's one of those things where you like a discernment of the truth. Right? And they're like some of the things that there's like so close, but then it not quite. And so they believe they funnel everything they believe through two founders, um, who founded the religion in the 1850s, I think. And so everything is funneled through those two men, essentially, and they use those two men to interpret the scriptures. And so everything is based on what those two guys wrote and believed and has kind of continued on.
[00:05:24] Katie Dooley: I have a follow up question. I guess what inspired these two founders, or I guess like to what benefit was this new sect or cult developing? Right. So, you know, we have the Protestant Reformation as an example. It was because we didn't want priests in the Latin and this separation between God and the people. So is there an obvious, you know, I guess, reason for them branching off on their own?
[00:05:54] Sarah Snyder: So. This is where it gets a little tricky for me because I don't obviously believe what they believe anymore. So I don't subscribe to that theory. And those beliefs, they believe that the men had, uh, somehow the help of God, uh, and what they've created and what they've written to interpret the scripture. I'm not sure what the overall benefit was as far as, like a societal context. Um, I do know that some of the works that these two men wrote were actually plagiarized. And so, Katie, I had sent you some of that a long time ago where they plagiarized some of it. And so I know that that kind of plays into it. I think these two men obviously benefited personally greatly, right from, from what they created and what they wrote. And so that's kind of my take on what happened. But the people who I was raised with would probably tell you very differently. They believe these two men found, and I quote "the truth". And so that's their stance is that is the truth. It is the only way to salvation. That's how it has to be. Um, and so they'll tell you that, right? That that's the benefit to society and people.
[00:07:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's kind of tricky. Any new church that starts up, you have people that are going to benefit, uh, whether or not they benefit financially through the sales of books. That's sometimes that's a goal. But really, everybody who starts a religion, whether that's their goal or not, ends up having a lot of social power. And that's a really interesting and kind of scary thing that can happen sometimes, depending on who wields that power. And when we have these guys just plagiarizing stuff, that's you add a kind of obvious looking fraud on top of that. It doesn't make things trickier really when once it's identified.
[00:07:52] Sarah Snyder: It is. Okay. So this is the thing though, right? So when you're outside of it and you're looking in it's like all of that makes sense, right? And so you're right it is beneficial. But when you're inside of it it's a totally different story. Uh, it's so I don't think unless you're raised into an environment like that, you can ever understand what it's like to be in that and then to just step out of it. Right, and then be like, oh, oh, oh, it just changes, uh, but it takes time to, to get there and to work through some of the things.
[00:08:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, we've, we've talked about the BITE model. I guess it was like a year ago, um, on all the different kinds of control that we see in authoritarian groups, the word cult is something that we shouldn't overuse, but an authoritarian group likes to control information and to what you had just said, if you don't have a frame of reference to recognize the issues, that's information control. That's a really gross thing sometimes.
[00:08:55] Sarah Snyder: Yeah. And it's interesting how sometimes people will say, well, Sarah, were you raised on a, on a compound like what? You know? And I'm like, nope, sure wasn't. But it was very much... You have to live life a very certain way and follow very strict guidelines and very strict doctrine. And, you know, it was like wear a hat when you go to church and women don't speak and you have to wear a skirt and you have to do this and you have to do that. And, um, the way that Scripture was used to manipulate people is, is what that kind of scares me. Right? And it terrifies me for them more really than I think anything else. Um, there are people. It's funny because. So I'll give you a little of a history, if that's okay. There's about 50,000 over what they say. There's about 50,000 of the whole broad group across the world who believe what and how I was raised. But then there's been a lot of division. So there's a lot of what we call subsects, right? And so there's little divisions throughout the world, too. Um, and the one that I was raised in has probably 300, 350 maybe believers right now total. Uh, and so and most of them, I probably say half are biologically related to me or, you know, or through marriage related to me. Right? And like I said, like, there's no compound. But now they're all buying land next to each other, right? And so things like that that are just like, hmmm, and so, um, yeah, it's it's, uh, it was weird going to school sometimes and... Because I was allowed to go to public school, and my father actually encouraged me to go to college. And my father actually got a lot of flack for that from some of the other people in the religion, because they were scared of exactly what happened, that I was going to go to college and meet more people who were not believers of this particular religion. And then all of a sudden, like leave, which is essentially what happened. Uh, funny enough. So they were, I guess, right in some respects to be worried, but it's it's yeah.
[00:11:05] Preston Meyer: I'm curious and you can feel free to not answer and we can always cut the question. Um, has your leaving this tradition affected your relationship with your family a lot?
[00:11:19] Sarah Snyder: Yes. Uh, yes. So my family still talks to me most. Okay, let me let me take that back. Most of my family still talks to me. My biological relatives still talk to me. Uh, but it's a lot of times under the guise of they want me to come back. So they think by having a relationship with me, they can talk me into coming back to the truth and they can talk me into rejoining. Um, and so that is the vast majority of how they work and how they base things off of. When I left in my early 20s. Um, the funny thing is, I, I had to write a letter to leave, so, um, I had stopped going. And okay, I'm trying. I'm trying to figure out how much background information to give you guys. I'm sorry, but I was in my early 20s. I was in college. I met some people, you know, friends made friends, whatever. And they were like, Sarah, the things you believe are a little weird, right? And so we started talking. I started talking, and some of them were Christian. Some of them were atheists. Some of them were agnostic, right? The whole. But they were all all of them agreed that what I believed was weird and I was like, oh. And so, uh, anyway, so at in time and working with them and talking to them and just having friends, right, who were in the world and talking to them, I was like, this, okay, something's off. Right? So eventually I stopped going to church as much because I was in college and I was working, and honestly, I was drinking on the weekends, right? So I was like, not wanting to get up Sunday morning and go to church. Uh, and it was a bit of a drive and it was out in the country. And I was just like, ugh, so, um, I ended up more and more when I talked to my friends, and the more and more honestly I was going to therapy, the more and more I want to start going to therapy. I was like, something is just not right. And so, um, some of the brethren of the they call it Ecclesias, not churches. So some of the brethren of the Ecclesia came and talked to me and said, hey, like you're not coming to church, basically, quote unquote lovingly. We're like, you need to get your act together. You'd be showing up for church because they believe one of the things for salvation is you have to attend church pretty much every single Sunday and break bread and I think you guys call it communion, right? Have fellowship together. So, uh, so we go through this process and of course, I'm sitting there talking to him i'm like, "oh yeah, I'll start showing up", you know, you know, whatever. Right in the back of my mind, I'm like, this is just weird. This is just weird. And so I ended up making the decision to leave. Um, and funny enough, I had to write a letter to say that I wanted to leave. So I wrote that letter and mailed it and said, I want to leave. I want to be done. And then, uh. I'm not allowed to leave, though. So you're not actually allowed to leave. You have to be essentially kicked out. So I sent the letter, and then they had a meeting and agreed that I needed to be kicked out because I wasn't going to be showing up anymore. And so they did. They call it disfellowship. So they disfellowshipped me, right. So then I wasn't a member of the ecclesia anymore, a member of the body anymore. And that was hard. So they still I mean, people still love me in that group. I know they do. I know they still care about me, but it changes things really drastically when, like I used to play the piano for church on Sundays. Right? I taught Sunday school for a long time within the group. I had a I don't want to say I had a lot of esteem, but as a woman, you don't have a whole lot of esteem in that group. And as a woman, I actually had quite a bit of esteem right in the group. And so when I left, I lost all that. I lost that esteem I had within that group. I lost that identity. I lost who I thought, I thought I knew God at the time I didn't. But you know, I lost that piece of my relationship with God. I lost, um, I did lose some friends. I did lose some family. And so it was a big, a big change in my life. Did that answer your question?
[00:11:19] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I was like, that was a lot of info.
[00:15:00] Sarah Snyder: I'm sorry. I never know how much to say and how much not to say it. I'm like, how much is too much? I just, I don't know.
[00:15:06] Katie Dooley: It's perfect. I'm like looking at our questions and I'm like, oh, she's answering them all. Where do we go from here? Um, that's where my pause is because you did so well.
[00:15:18] Sarah Snyder: I, uh, what I,
[00:15:20] Katie Dooley: I can go on if you want. Or I could shut up, you know. Is there any anything coming to your mind, Preston, that you want her to address specifically?
[00:15:29] Preston Meyer: I'm curious. So I come from the Latter-Day Saint tradition, where there's, like, highly centralized. And it's if you want to leave, it's a pretty formal situation, kind of like yours, where you, you have to formally say, hey, here's a letter. I withdraw my membership kind of thing. And then it's basically, yeah, once that's gone through, you are kicked out. Um, but it's more of a like everybody who goes to church is always registered, and you're asking to be removed from the list so that you don't have the missionaries keep reaching out to you and say, "hey, are you ready to come back yet?" Which of course is super annoying. And there are places, communities within the church that are more culty than others that are, you see families be more authoritarian and sometimes it's bigger than the family. Sometimes the whole community is kind of authoritarian. And would you say there's any diversity in that range of authoritarianism in the ecclesia, or is it all so pretty authoritarian?
[00:16:38] Sarah Snyder: I would say it's pretty all most of it is authoritarian. But you will see different ecclesias because each ecclesia is run by its own host of brethren. And so everybody follows the works of the two founders. But there's some discretion as to how the brethren run each ecclesia, right? And so, um, there's actually a board like they don't have a priest or a pastor for each ecclesia. It is really run by a board of men, essentially. And then they all take turns praying and preaching and, and whatever. Um, and so there is some humanness right in that process. And I would say there's also differences within families. So sometimes people will say, oh, they this particular family, well they, they came from the world. So in other words like that means they're not really as strict, right? As someone who is like myself essentially who was born into it. Right? And so you kind of give them some grace because maybe they don't understand. I'll give you an example. I was a kid. I was like, I don't know, 8 or 9. And we had some people come visit us from another ecclesia and they came to visit us and they had kids, right. And their kids said something about going to church. We're going to go to church tomorrow on Sunday. And I was I was like, oh, I was horrified because we don't say you go to church on Sunday. That's not something you say, right? Because that's a worldly term. We say you go to meeting on Sunday. Right? And so to differentiate ourselves. So we meet together on Sunday. We don't go to church. And so you know there's nuances like that too. And so that's that's kind of my answer there.
[00:18:07] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:18:07] Katie Dooley: I think that's interesting because even controlling the language that would fall under probably behavior control for the BITE model, right? Is that like we speak differently than other people. Um. And just for our listeners, like if your organization checks off 1 or 2 boxes of the BITE model, you're fine. Uh, when it starts to check off more. Um, it becomes a problem. So, uh, you know, if you use your own work lingo, you're not in a cult. But, uh, this is a good example of how you know Sarah,for you, it was. It sounds like they curated every detail of your life.
[00:18:48] Preston Meyer: It did. And and, you know, this goes into two. Like I as a kid wasn't allowed to celebrate Christmas. I wasn't allowed to celebrate Easter. I wasn't allowed to spread any. No, no, quote unquote, pagan holidays were celebrated. But there were other kids and other ecclesias who were allowed to have a Christmas tree, you know, and that was, you know, horrifying to my family, right? But they were allowed to have a Christmas tree, but they were taught, you know, it was pagan holiday and it shouldn't be. But but they were allowed to have it. And so there's things like that where I can see where my particular core biological family was also a lot stricter than I think than some other families, and the same too with the subsect. So there are some other sects of this particular group where that's not such a big deal, and it's more commonly practiced versus how I was raised where that was not, you know, that we didn't do any of that. So.
[00:19:39] Katie Dooley: But none of them would consider themselves Christian. Like globally or would.
[00:19:47] Sarah Snyder: You know what? That's a good question.
[00:19:48] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:19:50] Sarah Snyder: The very, very broad group. Maybe, as I would say, loose enough. They might they might style themselves Christians. But it would be surprising. I've also been I mean, I'm 40 now, so I've been removed for 20 years. So even though I still hear things, I still get information. You know, my family is still very much involved, right? And so I and I still get talked to about different things, but so, you know, but I've also tried to distance myself from some of that. And I know that there are some kind of loosening up, I think as it's, as it's gone along. And so I mean, the people who I know would be horrified if you called them Christians, but I can't say that that's across the board for, for, you know, all 50,000 people.
[00:20:38] Katie Dooley: Right. You said that in a text you sent me the other day, and I said, right. Oh, you know what? Yeah. I said, tell me about Christian. You're like, no.
[00:20:48] Sarah Snyder: I was like, no, no, those are not words they would use. Thank you.
[00:20:54] Preston Meyer: You go. You didn't grow up on a on a commune, as a lot of people like to imagine cults. And you'd mention that. So you grew up going to school with kids of different faiths, right?
[00:21:04] Sarah Snyder: Yes.
[00:21:04] Preston Meyer: Did the discussion of church or ecclesia ever come up with other kids when you were growing up?
[00:21:14] Sarah Snyder: I have had some people from school who I'm Facebook friends with now who I keep a contact veto text to keep contact with, keep on social media who have um commented to me. They were like, so something was always different about you. We knew you were a little weird, but we couldn't figure out, like, what was weird about you or what was different about you. I remember one time I was on a school, I was, I was little, I was on a school bus, and, um, I must have been, like, first grade or something. And I got off the school bus, and I told my mom I had told one of the little boys, uh, that there's any kids listening. You need to stop this right now. But. But I told the little boy on the school bus that there was no Santa Claus, and I told him that it was because the Bible said there was no Santa Claus, right? And so I got home and I told my mom, I said, yeah, I told so and so that the Bible says there's no Santa Claus because he thinks there's a Santa Claus, and that's not right. And so my mom was like, okay, two things. One, quit telling the kids that. And two, riht, Like the Bible doesn't actually say there's no Santa Claus. So, you know, we had to have a conversation about that. But I think those were the things that came up, right? That I was like, oh, this is a little different. Or maybe the other kids noticed, right? Why wouldn't you believe in Santa Claus? Or why wouldn't you have a Christmas tree? Or why wouldn't you do this, that or the other? Um, I mean, I had a lot of friends who, like, didn't go to church and that kind of stuff. And so to them, it was weird, right, that I was going to church on Wednesday night and I was going to church on Sunday, and I was going to church sometimes on Saturday. And then I was going to these things called gatherings, right? They're like, you gotta gatherings. Why don't you go to vacations? Like we're going to Disney or we're going to, you know, wherever, and you're doing what? So that would come up from time to time. Well, I was a fairly intelligent kid and so there's also this piece of like kind of blending in, right, that I was able to do to, to make it through. And even though my father is, is pretty, pretty strict in the religion now in his old age. Um, he is actually, uh, he actually came in later in life. So he was not born and raised in it like my mother was. And so I think this is my hypothesis. I could be wrong, but there were some things, I think, where my father was like, no, like, our kids need to go out and have real-life experiences where my mother would have been more like, no, they need to be 100% in sheltered right in, in the house. And so, um, that allowed me to have some, some. Like I listen to ACDC in the car with my dad, right? So, there are some experiences like that that I talk about. Sometimes people are like you did and well, yeah, but you know, my dad listened to ADC growing up. So to him listening in the car, right. There's some there's some nuances there too that happen.
[00:23:54] Katie Dooley: So did kid Sarah know you were different, or did you think everyone else was different?
[00:23:59] Sarah Snyder: I thought everyone else was in error and was going to die.
[00:24:05] Preston Meyer: That makes perfect sense. That's what you were taught, right?
[00:24:07] Sarah Snyder: Right. I mean, that's it. Do you want to touch on the trauma piece, or do you not want to touch on the trauma piece?
[00:24:14] Katie Dooley: I mean, if you're wanting to touch on the trauma piece and actually one of, I mean, one of my questions, and we've had this conversation, and you don't need to tell this specific story, but, um. You know, I think of the posts we made for Samhain with the bonfire.
[00:24:14] Sarah Snyder: Oh, yeah.
[00:24:31] Katie Dooley: And how, although it was about, um, I think well, it's about solving so Wicca or Celtic paganism that that was actually something that really bothered you. So if you're willing to share that story, I'd love for you to. And I mean, anything you want, want to share. This is your your moment.
[00:24:50] Sarah Snyder: I think that no, I think that there's some there was a lot of fear in how I was raised. So in other words, a big piece. But when I saw that post that you made on Instagram, it was on Instagram, it that honestly triggered me and triggered a lot of fear in me because I was like, oh my goodness. Because I was taught that people were going to come after us and kill us and torture us and do that kind of stuff to us, right? And so when I saw that, it was just like, oh, and then I had to like, calm myself down and be like, wait a minute, right? Like, I don't think anyone's going to come to my house today and take my Bible from me and torture me and burn me at the stake, right? I think I'm okay. Uh, but I mean, that said, I mean, there are Christians who are persecuted right around the world. So but it was a different there was so fear based. Everything was fear even to be afraid of God, like God wasn't a loving, kind, patient like I talked to him in the Bible that love is patient. Love is kind. You know? Love never ends, right? And that was not the God that I knew. I knew a God who was angry and judgmental and was going to come after me. And even to the point where, you know, most Christians will tell you, generally speaking, that once you, depending on the part of Christianity you are, once you accept Christ or once you're baptized or whatever, right that you have salvation. Um, I was raised to believe that, um, it is not at all not no, no guarantee at all, right? So you do all these things, you follow these lists, you follow these rules. Uh, when I was baptized, I had to be examined. I had to go through an examination process before I could, you know, was allowed to be baptized. So I went through this examination. It was like, two hours long. And then I was an hour, two hours long. And then I was baptized, right? But even after being baptized, then it was this thing of like, you're still not guaranteed salvation. And so you have to be very careful and walk on eggshells and do all these things right. Even the way I prayed had to be a certain way. I had to end the prayer a certain way. Right? Or God might be upset with me for not saying the prayer the right way, and then and not hear my prayer right, and then be upset with me because I prayed wrong. And so that makes you afraid to even talk to God, right? So now I'm terrified to have a conversation with God. Uh, and then and then, um, I forget where I was going with that. Anyway, so there's all these little things and nuances right in the background that are, like, really hard. It made me really afraid of God and made me really, really terrified. So the other piece. So that's that that's the Instagram piece. Right, that you and I talked about that the trigger me. But Katie knows a lot about this a lot about my background. But I was actually sexually abused throughout pretty much the entirety of my childhood. There was like a couple year gap there where I wasn't being, but it was pretty much that throughout from. I mean, I don't know, as young as you can probably imagine until I was like 12 or 13, I think. And so. No. Well, yeah. And so, um, one of the things that happened. Right, and this is a, uh, an example I give sometimes where, when I outcried, um, I was told I was, I was 12 and I outcried and I said, hey, this is going on. I don't like it. I want it to stop. Um, and the adults that I outcried to said, well, you need to follow Matthew 18 and Matthew 18 talks about how when you're upset with, uh, or there's a conflict in the church, you go one-on-one first, right to the other believer. You talk to him one-on-one, and then if that doesn't go well, then you bring other members of the church, right? And you have a conversation. And if that doesn't goes, they go, well, then you bring it, I think, to the whole church is how Matthew 18 is phrased and so I'm 12 I outcry, I say being sexually abused. Somebody please help me. And I get told well you have to follow Matthew 18. So that meant that I went essentially by myself to my abuser, to the man who was abusing me, right? And uh, I was too scared to tell him face to face. So I actually wrote a letter and, uh, I gave him a letter, and I was like, hey, like, you know, like, stop. I know what you're doing. Stop it. But that's one of those things where. Uh, it was awful. I don't wish it on anyone ever, right? But I now, as an adult, can look back. And honestly, I 10,000% believe God protected me because that man could have done anything to me. Because when I outcried, the people who I had outcried to actually lived in one in another country and one in another state, and because we were together when I outcried. So then I came back to my home where this was happening and, and I said this right, and told him to stop. He... anything could happen to me, right? And so I'm able to look back at that kind of stuff and be like, like, thanks God. You know, thanks for having my back. Right? Because that could have been real bad. And later on in life, when more people essentially found out about what had happened, some were of the opinion that it was wrong, that, you know, I should have, you know, adults should have done something to help me. Right? Some people were upset about it, but some people said, well, some people said, well, what was wrong was that you weren't actually baptized and in fellowship, yet you were still in Sunday School. So that's if you'd been baptized, then that would have been an appropriate use of that verse. And so I shouldn't I don't know, I shouldn't be laughing, but I have to laugh about it, right? Because we're gonna do? But that's the stuff now that it's, it's absolutely ridiculous. So. I can give tons of scriptural examples like that. Tons. I actually messaged Katie the other day I was reading the Bible. Something about Romans in it. It came up right. It was the same thing and it just it's like a trauma trigger, right? Immediately I'm like a kid again and I'm, you know, because I was sexually abused. As I learned about the Bible, I was sexually abused, you know, through lots of stuff. And I listened to these men talk and preach about God and,and so, you know, in my head, right, there's so much trauma and intertwinedness and junk. So when we talk about me leaving to circle, back when we talk about me leaving in my 20s, uh, when I left in my 20s, I was just like. I was so angry and so mad, and I had all these horrible nightmares about how Christ is going to return to the earth and judge everyone. And I had these horrible nightmares about how Christ is going to come and judge me, and I was going to be found unfavorable. Right? And, I mean, it was just this whole muck of stuff. And so, to this day, people in that religion believe I left because I was mad about the abuse that had happened. And and they're like, well, you should you should forgive and forget and in fact, I had to write. I had to write a basically a dissertation, uh, when I was a teenager, about how forgiveness and forgetting were not the same thing and how the founders of the original religion didn't believe that forgiveness and forgetting were the same thing, because they wouldn't let off of it. They're like, you literally have to just forget and be around these men and be okay with it. And this is your problem and you need to deal with it. So I say all that to say, right when I left, I was, I, I hated God and I was like, I am, I'm agnostic. And I went through a short little phase where I was like, I think I'm atheist. Like, how could how could evil like this ever happen in the world, right? Katie's like, praise the Lord. And I was like, how could how could evil like this happen in the world, right? What is wrong with people? And I tried to explore at various times. I tried to explore various religions. So I went to different churches and I went to different places because I was like, wait a minute, that, you know, agnostic and one minute trying to try and find a church and one minute I'm trying to do this honest to goodness every time it was a trigger. And people in, in my friends didn't understand, people in the churches didn't understand, right? And every time I went, I just I couldn't right and I couldn't. And, um, can I talk about where I'm at today or do you want me to.
[00:32:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah. That was gonna be my next. That's. Yeah, absolutely. What's life like now? And even more details about your religious journey if you want.
[00:32:37] Sarah Snyder: Yeah. So where am I today? So a couple years ago, I met someone I and I had done I had done therapy, done the whole nine yards. But a couple years ago I met a woman who is a trauma specialist professional, and she started working through some of the trauma with me in a much deeper way than I had ever been able to do before. I'd actually been told by people that in order to work through the trauma that I had been through, uh, that I would need to be institutionalized in a mental hospital for at least I think it was two months or three months. And they were like, there's no guarantee that we can actually put you back together. But they're like, we got to get you to a... And I was super successful. I had a great career, right? But I was just constantly in this state of trauma. And so the professionals were like, the only way you're going to heal is if we lock you up for 2 to 3 months, we really break you down, and then we can't guarantee that we can actually get you put back together. So I was on tons of psych meds. Like I was just trying to make it through life, essentially. Anyway, so two years ago, three years ago, I met this trauma professional. And, uh, so I met her and we started working together. And, uh, thankfully, she was able to help me work through some things. Like I said, I hadn't been able to work through before. Uh, she's just kind of a different bird and works in a little bit of a different way. And it was effective for me, right? And that was what I needed in my life. And one of the things that we had started talking about was the religious trauma, which I had not really touched on before. And but I also had people in my life around that time who were Christians, who were letting me ask them some questions, kind of about Jesus and kind of about God and why do they believe. Questions that I hadn't really been able to explore asked before in that way. And I had finally worked through the trauma enough to where I could get to a point where I could have some of these discussions and some of these conversations. And so I finally came to the conclusion... Was in September October of like 2020, I did actually pray and I asked God to Jesus to come into my heart and guide my life. And and it was so funny because I did it by myself in my room, like I just really felt that I had misunderstood God, and I wanted him to really guide my life. And I was like, no, this is something something's been off, right? I and so I did that. And it was funny because the next day I made a I told a friend of mine the next day that, you know, that I had had that conversation and asked God to do that. And, uh, her comment to me was like, "oh, good, well I'll see you in heaven". And she's a Christian, so she made that comment. And I remember I was like, that's not why. That's not why I did it. Like, I didn't I didn't do it to go to heaven because honestly, I'm still in some of my, some of my mind thinking as a kid, right? Like, there's no heaven. There's no hell. Like, why would I what what what? No. Like I just did it because I want a relationship with Jesus. Like, I just want a relationship with God. I want him to help me. And, uh, anyway, so I say that because, uh, very quickly, my life started to change after that. So I was in Texas at the time. I took off, sold all my stuff, became a digital nomad, uh, started living in other countries. I lived in Aruba for a couple of months. I lived in Costa Rica for a couple months. And then, uh, I was traveling around and doing what I wanted to do, and I came back. I met a woman online. We do business, we do business online, and I do a lot of work online writing in the various marketing groups, Facebook groups. And I met a woman online through business. And, uh, I made a post and we became Facebook friends, even though we were just business associates, because she was following my journeys and following my travels. And I made a post in March of 2021 about how I hadn't realized that human love between people, friends, relationships, whatever. Uh, I did not realize up until that point that healthy love was not transactional. So in other words, like if I'm dating someone and we're in a relationship and I don't take the trash out, I literally thought they didn't love me as much that day. Like I thought I had to, like, refill the bucket. And, uh, I actually sometimes my friends would be like, Sarah, why do you ask us all the time if we still love you? Like, of course we do. But in the back of my mind, because everything I thought about God was transactional, everything, a lot of stuff in my family was transactional as far as love went, so I carried that into adulthood, into all my relationships, romantic, friendship, all of it. And it's it's so funny because I finally came to that realization right in March of 2021, that healthy love is not transactional, right? And I was like, oh my goodness. And I actually reached out to an ex of mine and I was like, "hey, so when I took the trash out, did you love me more?" They were like, they were like, no.
[00:37:24] Katie Dooley: I'm pretty sure you asked me. And I was like, no. Yes.
[00:37:29] Sarah Snyder: What blew my I'm 39 years old and it blew my mind at the time, right? So I made a post on Facebook about it, uh, because I try and be as honest and authentic and real on social media as I can, because I think there's too much fake social media in the news. So, uh, I posted about it on Facebook. And this woman, who I was a business acquaintance of mine, I've been doing business with online, she, uh, she commented privately to me. She said, "hey, like, I'm just going to throw this out there. But do you know that God's love isn't transactional either? Like he just loves you." And, uh. I was like, that's interesting. But here's the thing. Here's the thing about her. She didn't shove it down my throat. She wasn't like, hey, you're wrong. She wasn't none of that. Which is what I had expected because that's how I had been raised. She was just like, hey, like, I really love God and Jesus, and I just assume everyone else will love God and Jesus because I do. And so, hey, like, here you go. And, um, there was no there was no judgment. There was no... It was just like an open comment. And I was like, maybe she's safe. I could ask her questions. And so I started kind of putting my toe in the water. Can I ask you some questions? And so she and I started doing Bible study together, essentially as I'm living in Costa Rica and she's here in Florida. And so we started doing Bible study together, uh, every, every week. And then eventually I came back to the US to get supplies, and I was going to go back out because I was going to go live in Grenada. So that was that was the next place on my list. I got totally blocked. I couldn't get back out of the country. I tried, Katie knows I tried, I tried to go to Grenada, to the Dominican Republic. I was like, I'm going to Albania, like, just let me out.
[00:37:29] Katie Dooley: Africa was on the list for a while. Yeah.
[00:39:13] Sarah Snyder: I was like, whatever I need to do, let me back out of this victory. Uh, but now I believe that God did that. Like, God really, really blocked it. And because I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be here for it and now, right? And so anyway, I could go on and on and on. But essentially what happened is I ended up living here in Florida and being here near, uh, that particular person and her family. And there's a nondenominational Bible church I go to now that she and her family attend. But even when and so I've been here about eight months now, and I do consider myself a Christian. I do think you have to accept Jesus in your heart to be saved. I do read the Bible just about every day. I do ask the Holy Spirit to help me, I do pray. That was one of the things I was really weird was when this this particular woman, she pointed out to me, she was like, Sarah, she says, you ask a lot of questions. It's really good. But she said, you also know you can read the Bible and ask God to help you understand it without asking everybody else what they think the Bible means first. Shocked me. I was like, I can? I thought I had to like, read like C.S. Lewis and ask you and like, follow Francis Chan. And she's like, no, that's not how this works. And so there are learning curves right now I'm 40. There are learning curves like that that I'm still going through based on how I was raised, right? And I'm like, oh, this makes so much more sense now. Thank you for explaining it to me. So anyway, all that to say, I haven't been on any psych meds in two three years now. I think meds have their time and place, please know that. But I was on meds, you know, from the time I was essentially like 15/16 until I was like 37, I think. And I was on tons of meds and they just couldn't. I, I did try and take my own life. Um, at one point in my life, I struggled so bad with all kinds of depression and mental health. And it's not that life's perfect today because it's not because I still struggle. I still have my ups and downs. If I ever feel like I need to go back on meds, I will, right? But I don't. But I believe a lot of that has been one, the healing journey I've been on, but two, it's been God working in my life, right? And him making the difference and him helping me heal, and him putting me in environments where I could heal, right? Like swimming with the turtles in Aruba, right? That was a beautiful experience for me. Life there was amazing. And so that allowed me to see beauty in the world that I hadn't really experienced or seen before. And like the church here, the Bible church I go to, I don't think anybody at that church knows except for this, my friend maybe, or my friend and her family. Um, but I would go to church when I first got here on Sundays and Wednesdays, almost every time. Not quite, but almost every time I would walk out and, like, ready to hyperventilate. Because inevitably, right, the preacher has preached about a Bible verse, right? That I'd been molested while I was learning about or he's preached about a, you know, a verse that I was manipulated with or he's preached but, right? And so the only, I mean, honest to goodness, the only reason I was able to make it through was because my friend, for the longest time, she would sit by me and I don't know how she did it. I honestly think it's the Holy Spirit because I don't know, but she could just kind of tell when I start to get riled up and she would just kind of touch my shoulder. And no one, nobody else in the church knew it, right? But she just kind of touched my shoulder and she'd be like, are you okay? And I'd be like, I gotta breathe, right? Or I would take my shoes off and rub my... There's a grounding technique when you have trauma, right? You take your shoes off and ground, you breathe, you you're... I would rub my feet on the carpet, right? Okay. Back in the room, like we're we're good to go. And then she would honestly, she would let me process after, right? And and he's like, this is what happened. And let me kind of talk through it and talk about it. But even with me feeling like God wanted me to stay and all that. I don't think I'd have been able to if I wouldn't have had that support, because the trauma was so intense and, um. So I'm thankful, right? And I look at the people in my life who let me for years, like ask them questions. And, I don't know, I was pretty judgmental. And let me be judgmental, right? Let me ask some questions and, uh, let me say things like, I really hate God today, right? And now I read the Psalms, right? And I read David, and he's... so he never says he hates God, I don't think, but he gets up and down, right? He gets mad and he's he goes through these emotions and I can identify with that. Right? And I'm like, oh, okay, somebody else like me. Cool. And then, uh, like I read Paul, right? And Paul says, you know, it's by the grace of God that I am what I am. And his grace to me is not without effect. And I read that and I'm like, okay, cool. So like, we're on the same page here. All right, Paul, like, if you did what you did and I've done what I've done and you're okay, then maybe there's a chance for me and I'm okay, right? And so anyway, that's. It's time to stop talking again.
[00:43:57] Preston Meyer: It's great to hear your transition from a place where God brings you pain to a place where God is peace and love for you.
[00:44:06] Katie Dooley: It's been a it has been a huge shift. Um, and part of it, too, was I didn't think you could be angry at God. Like, I thought that if I got mad at God, he was going to, like, strike me dead. And so, uh, at one point, someone did point out to me, uh, throughout this process, they're like, Sarah, like you, you can tell God you're mad at him. And I was like, no, you can't. And they were like, Sarah. They're like, he knows your thoughts. He knows what you're thinking. You might as well just tell him. Uh, which I ended up with me writing. Like I don't even know enough 5 or 6 page rage letter to God about how much I hated him. And then I started. I wrote it, and I was so emotionally exhausted. I started to fall asleep. And then I woke back up and I was like, wait a minute. And it clicked. I was like, it was, man, that did these things to me, not God. A man did this. And so then I wrote an apology letter to God, and I was like, hey, I'm really sorry. Like, I just don't know who to be mad at anymore, right? And, um, so I did that, and then I started to fall asleep. And then I woke back up and I was like, I had already accepted Christ, but I was like, I really want to be baptized. Like I had been wanting to be baptized, but there were all these issues with me traveling and not being able to do it. And I was like, this is really important to me. Like, I really want to be baptized and show my faith publicly. So then I was able to be baptized here in Florida, which was really, uh, an amazing experience for me. So that was really cool. But I think, too, if I talk about this, I, I, I was also really angry with my parents because I felt like they didn't support me. They didn't protect me, they didn't advocate for me. The fact that I had to remain around those men for years, even after they knew about... The abuse had ended, right? But I still had to be around them and see them and be at church with them all the time and hang out. You know, I was so mad and I was so mad, um, at the two men, right. These two like two different men. I should clarify that. So I was mad right? At those two men. I was just so angry and people didn't always realize it, right? Because I was real good about keeping a cool and calm exterior. But inside, I was just eating up with this anger. And people tell you... And this upsets me when people are like, we just need to forgive. Do you know how hard that is? Do you know how much therapy I did, you know much, right? Like I couldn't forgive for anything. Uh, until I started, honestly, I started praying and I was like, God, please help me, please help me. Because I have done everything as a human that I know how to do. I have done all the therapy, I have done all the coaching, I have done all the writing, I've done all the journaling, I have done everything. And I am just eating up with this anger. And, um, there's about 6 or 7 months ago I started praying and praying and praying and then, um. I don't know. Funny enough, 3 or 4 months in I actually got to a point where I was like, oh. I'm not so mad like what they did was wrong. It is wrong. But I'm not so angry. I was like, huh? And then I started looking at like, what good can come from this, right? Not that what happened was good. I want to be very clear it was not good. But what good can I make out of my life? What good can I make out of it? Right? What could have I made out of it? And what good can I make out of it? And then I, I do not always advise this. I don't advise this for other survivors. Just know that. But I felt very strongly like God was calling me to call the one of the men who abused me, he's dead. The other one is still alive, and I felt like God was calling me to call him and tell him that I forgave him, and that the reason I was able to forgive him was because of God and because I felt like God had worked a miracle in my life and because I had accepted Christ. And so about two months ago, I did, andl I hadn't talked to that man in years. Um, and I called him and, uh, he answered, and we had a conversation, and I told him that, um, which ended up being a healing experience for me, um, thankfully. And so. That's the pieces of the puzzle that I don't know how to explain. And so sometimes, you know, Katie and other atheist friends, I have lots of friends who are atheist and agnostic. So they're like, how do you how do you know there's a god? Or why do you believe in God or what? Right? I don't know how else to explain it, right? Like those experiences, I have tons more, right? But I couldn't get there as a human being on my own. And it wasn't until I started asking God to help in my life and do things in my life. Not that I think he'll do everything I ask him, I don't, but it's through those experiences and I'm like, there's got to be something like, he's got. He's got to be there. He's, you know.
[00:48:31] Katie Dooley: Yeah. You have an amazing story and I, I love I mean, I love Sarah, period. But Sarah is also just an amazing example of like putting so much work into yourself, right? You've never, ever given up in 40 years, which is admirable, to say the least.
[00:48:51] Sarah Snyder: Thanks. I try.
[00:48:54] Preston Meyer: It sounds like a rough journey. But it looks like you've come out so far. Great. And I can only hope it gets better from here.
[00:49:04] Sarah Snyder: It's one of those things where I'm like, I know it will. I know it's only going to continue to get better because even even through the rough, this is what someone said to me after I was baptized. They said to me, they said, hey, Sarah said, you know that basically like this doesn't necessarily mean that things are going to be easy, right? Like these. Even though you even though you've got God, sometimes this can make life more challenging. And my immediate thought was, my life has been so hard without God that nothing could ever come in my way. That will be as hard as not having him in my life as long as I mean, he's been present in my life, right? But as long as I have a relationship with him and I'm secure with him there, like, no matter how bad things get, it's okay because he loves me and he's got me and he'll use whatever for good. And that's what I'm that's what I firmly believe. And I've been through some rough patches since then I've had some tough times come up, and it's so different when you have that that faith and that walk and that belief. It it... I don't know how to explain it. It's just like, no, like I we're okay, I'm okay.
[00:50:12] Preston Meyer: So I've got an idea that kind of poking at me a little bit. I've. We all have people with varying degrees of similarity and differences from ourselves, and sometimes you come across a person that you notice that they agree with you on something and you reflexively go, wait. If you agree, should I should I agree with you on this? You ever find that sort of situation where, um, as you develop this new, warmer relationship with God that you're talking with somebody and feel like there's maybe a little too much similarity to something from before that just doesn't feel right until you reframe it.
[00:51:00] Sarah Snyder: Can you give me an example? I'm not trying to be dense, but, like, give me a give me a...
[00:51:06] Preston Meyer: Like i'm trying to think of an example church-wise, and I've got nothing. Um.
[00:51:12] Sarah Snyder: You mean that there's... Do I feel like the church I go to now? Like, does it have similarities to how I was raised? Is that what you're asking?
[00:51:19] Preston Meyer: Is there anything that jumps out at you or that you hear that sounds familiar or similar, but is... It makes you think of something that you used to believe, and either is the same, but reframed in a better way, or something that is jarring when you realize it. Is that a thing that comes up?
[00:51:40] Sarah Snyder: If I understand your question right, I can talk about the God piece. So in other words, like I was raised right to be very fearful of God. And I mean, the pastor of the church I go to talks about how we should be fearful of God, right? And so but the reframe for me, right is that God is't just out to get me. He created because he loves me, right? So he's not just out to get me and punish me. And yes, like, I mean, uh, who is? I can't think of the guy's name who kills like tens of thousands of people in the Bible, right? Like God is a vengeful God. Sometimes God does. Right? There is stuff like that. But. I'm able to see now more it's like a healthy a I'm like, I'm a I'm gonna make sure I put this word healthy. It is like a healthy parent, right, versus somebody who's just mad and vengeful and beating their kid and whatever. God is actually a healthy parent where he comes in and he's like, hey, you need a little bit of discipline here because you're super way off track. So I'm going to discipline you and kind of push you back right to the path you need to be on. But honestly, when I'm sitting in the church and the pastor's talking about, you know, a vengeful god or whatever, right? I get where I'm like, wait a minute, what is this? Is this are we talking about the same thing? And then I get scared, right? And then I have to work through that, you know, either on my own or in the Bible or in talking with people, right? And I'm like, okay, this is what he actually means, right? He doesn't actually mean what I started to get he means that, yeah, like sometimes parents, parents discipline their kids, right? God's the same way, right? And so, um, if that's what you're asking, there's some like there's some reframe there. And the other thing that I'm learning about is the difference between a healthy community and an unhealthy community. And so I have been very much like, I'm independent. I don't need no one. I don't need nobody. Katie can tell you I get I would freak. So I was traveling the world, right? And Katie and I are friends and I would get freaked out. I'm like, I'm too dependent on Katie. I don't need friends. I don't need anybody. I don't need you. Right? And I do this very unhealthy push-pull in my relationships, uh, even my friendships where I'm like, I get close to people. And then I'm like, wait a minute. This is too close. You're going to hurt me. I'm gonna leave now because this is this. We can't do this anymore. And so one of the terrifying things for me here has been to go to the same church every Sunday, see the same people and be like, oh my goodness, I'm in a community, right? Like, what is this? Uh, and and so I think that honestly, is probably the most terrifying thing that is the most familiar to me that it mimics, right, how I was raised. But I have to remember, I can go to the church two doors down if I want to go right, and I if I take off and move to Grenada now or somewhere else, these people will still love me. They'll still care about me. Like their opinion doesn't change, right? They want the best for me. I texted one of the ladies at church. Go ahead Katie,
[00:54:30] Katie Dooley: I was just going to say so what you're saying is I'm a saint.
[00:54:34] Sarah Snyder: You?
[00:54:34] Katie Dooley: Yeah. For putting up with you. For putting up with you.
[00:54:34] Sarah Snyder: Yes.
[00:54:42] Katie Dooley: So I'm the good guy here? No.
[00:54:45] Sarah Snyder: Once for once, you could claim the good guy badge. Yes.
[00:54:49] Katie Dooley: Uh, sorry. This lady at church.
[00:54:52] Sarah Snyder: So, uh, today, today, I was feeling a little nervous about doing this podcast, and so, uh, I was feeling anxious about it, and I was like, man, I really need a home-cooked meal. And so there's a lady at the church who's a little bit older than me, uh, wiser in years than me, as I like to say. And so I texted her and I was like, Will you please make me beef stew is my favorite meal in the world. And I was like, Will you please make me some stew and/or soup? It doesn't have to be right away. But could you do that sometime? And she texted me back. She said, of course I would love to, right? She's like, let's schedule a time, right? Then you come over and have dinner, right? And uh, or whatever. And that I have to remember like that's healthy, right? That it's healthy to have that support. It's healthy to have that. She doesn't know I'm doing this podcast. But but she still wanted like, hey, like, yeah, I'll cook dinner for you, come over whatever. And I have to remember that's okay. Like that. That's not a bad thing to have in life because I have told you two, three, 4 or 5 years ago that was a that was terrifying thing, right? That was maybe not a good thing to have in life. And now I'm like, oh no, it's okay, right? This this is good. This is healthy. And I still have my ability to think independently. The pastor here at the church, he I couldn't when I first got to the church, he stood up on that stage and he said that it was okay to disagree with him. And he said, if you disagree with him to come have a conversation with him. And he was like, and bring the Bible right, and we'll talk it through together. And I was like, what is that like, did you really just say that from like the stage that like, we could disagree with you? Are you insane? So things like that, right where I'm like, oh, I still get to have autonomy of thought, right? I still get the think through... Like, we I don't even agree with my friend here on some things. Or I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not sure I agree with you on this. And and it's fine. We talk it through. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree. But that's a huge difference. We don't have to have the same exact 100% aligned belief, right? And um, being able to read the Bible for myself, that that man that just is so different without having to use someone else or something else to translate, you know, to essentially to explain what it says. Does that answer your question? Did I get there eventually?
[00:57:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's great.
[00:57:05] Sarah Snyder: It's funny, as a publicist, I coach people right on how to do media interviews and how to have your background and how not to say, um, too much and how to be prepared for questions. But as someone who goes out and does interviews sometimes for business or about this kind of stuff, I please, if you're my client, do as I say, not as I do. That's.
[00:57:20] Katie Dooley: Always that's a good rule.
[00:57:23] Sarah Snyder: So like, yeah.
[00:57:26] Preston Meyer: There's a big difference between an imperfect person and an actual hypocrite. We can give advice and we can try to follow it if we believe it, it's going to show. It's when we really just say, you know, I'm not going to worry about it, but I need you to keep doing it. That's that's the hypocrisy.
[00:57:47] Sarah Snyder: I definitely worry about it. I'm just like, eh.
[00:57:53] Preston Meyer: It's all right.
[00:57:54] Katie Dooley: Again, we're all friends here.
[00:57:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:57:57] Katie Dooley: We're pretty. We're a pretty casual podcast.
[00:58:00] Sarah Snyder: What's nice is We're on Zoom. It's just I don't, I guess the listeners only we're actually on zoom. And it was actually nice to see your face Preston because I've heard you on the podcast, but I was like, oh, that's what his face looks like.
[00:58:10] Preston Meyer: Right? Katie's been talking about you for a long time, and now I have a face to go with the name.
[00:58:15] Katie Dooley: You come up in a lot of conversations because of what you've just told everyone.
[00:58:21] Sarah Snyder: Yeah.
[00:58:22] Katie Dooley: Um, so we're at close to the hour mark. Um, I mean, I'm still enjoying this conversation, but do you have any advice or thoughts for someone who might be in a danger cult?
[00:58:34] Sarah Snyder: Uh, so a couple things. When you're starting to question things. Be careful who you trust with what you're questioning. And so. That I think was very difficult because when I was not allowed to question things, right? And the second you start to question things within that environment, right. You're you're immediately bombarded. And so, um, if you're questioning things, that's that's okay. That's good. That's healthy, right? But be careful who you're talking to and who has your ear and whose wisdom you're listening to. Some, some very authoritarian religions, right, are even more controlling than how I was raised. And so I always encourage, if you're in an especially scary situation, please make sure you have a safety plan right. Please make sure you have friends that you can trust, right? Who are outside of that environment, right? Who you know have your safety plan, who know what's going on, who you can you can lean on for support and dependance. Um, please know that it's hard leaving, but it's worth it because once you kind of get through that and get over that. Life just blossoms and opens up. Um, and then also, know it's okay. I had the hardest time in the world asking for support and asking for help. And I want to encourage people it is 10,000% okay to say, hey, whether it's a friend, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a coach, whether it's a, I don't know, a spouse, whoever like it is okay to say, hey, I need, I need help and can you help me with X? Right. Whether that's leaving, whether that's understanding, whether that's whatever, right? Like and if the first person can't help you, that's fine. Ask the next person and keep asking until you get the help you need.
[01:00:17] Preston Meyer: I think that's great advice.
[01:00:19] Sarah Snyder: Thank you.
[01:00:20] Katie Dooley: And I mean, we did our cult episode, which Sarah hasn't listened to.
[01:00:24] Sarah Snyder: I didn't because we talked about that. I wanted to, but I was like, man, if this triggers me and then I'm up and then I can't, I don't know,
[01:00:30] Katie Dooley: I understand it's totally okay. But we write. We gave some advice, but neither of us have lived it. So it's great to, you know, hear from someone who has lived it and is thriving afterwards.
[01:00:43] Sarah Snyder: There's a mental transition, like a shift in your brain, that has to happen to understand that you are okay, and at least for me, right, that I was okay and I had value outside of that environment, that I was lovable outside of that environment. And but it's worth it when you get there. So just keep doing the work.
[01:01:06] Katie Dooley: Sarah, I love you so much.
[01:01:08] Sarah Snyder: Thank you. I love you too.
[01:01:12] Katie Dooley: Anything else you want to touch on, Preston, or Sarah is there any other stories you want to share?
[01:01:19] Preston Meyer: There's this idea that everybody wants to help somebody when they see that they're in a cult. But. There's a line that people are going to cross. Most of the time when you say, hey, I want to help you out of this cult where the people on the inside who are experiencing it feel that the person offering help is an oppressor.
[01:01:47] Sarah Snyder: Correct.
[01:01:48] Preston Meyer: Like almost all the time.
[01:01:50] Sarah Snyder: Yes.
[01:01:52] Preston Meyer: And and there's loads of different words for, for how that perception plays out. But that's the that's the trick. And having never had to live through that experience in any functional or successful way, my inclination is to expect that maybe saying, I'm here to help you out if you need out, but I'm not going to pull you out. Is that even a statement that would encourage somebody who's on the inside?
[01:02:24] Preston Meyer: So here's here's my suggestion. From my own experience, I don't even know, honestly, that I'd say that. I'd say, hey, I enjoy and appreciate being your friend. Let's go have coffee or hey, like, let's sit and chit chat and and not to be friends, to manipulate. Not at all. But literally just to sit and have a conversation and listen to the person and, um. So I have a license as a counselor. Right? It's a little piece of my counseling background comes into play, even though I don't practice anymore. People miss the value of that. The value of friendship, the value of eye contact, the value of of we're doing this online, right? But like I said, my friend here, like. I wasn't obviously involved anymore, but the way she approached me was so non-judgmental, right? It was just so open-ended, like, hey, I'm here if you want to have a conversation. But, you know, and, um, people forget the little acts of kindness go so, I mean, the the, the smile, the hey, like, I care about you, the I mean this is terrible, right? But my friend being like, when I'm in college and I'm still involved, right. My friends being like, dude, you were so weird, but you can come room with us anyway, right? Like whatever. Or like, dude, they would kind of tease me a little bit, right? Which I'm pretty good-natured most of the time. Right? I have a good sense of humor most of the time, so they would kind of tease me a little bit. They'd be like, dude, like, really? And then they'd be like, come on, come have a beer with us. Right? Come on, right? Come on. And but they were not like, oh my goodness, you're crazy. You have to get out. We have to help you leave, right? Blah blah blah. It was more of just like a hey, like, come experience life with us. Come see that life can be a little bit different. And, um, it was a little bit of that little bits of that, little bits of that, right? And I say it takes a village. I mean, for me it's like a village, right? And it took a village of experiences like that. And so if you're going into somebody and you're like, I'm going to save this person, I can be this person's savior. I'm sorry, which you have the sincerely the wrong perspective on it. It's I really don't think it's going to happen. I think you have to go in with with the friendship, with the love, with the non-judgment. And then if it gets to the point where you feel like you've developed that relationship where you can say, hey, like, if you ever wanted to leave, I'm happy to help you out or figure that, right? Okay, cool. Or if they ask you, which is honestly 10,000% better if they're able to come to you, and say, I do think I want to leave, right? And which is kind of what happened with me. Right? I got to a point. I was like, I do think I want to leave, but now I'm scared because I don't know what happens next. Right? And then I had that conversations with my friends and with my therapist, right? And we went from there. That was a long time ago. But it's a, it's a calling from that place of love is patient, love is kind, right? Like, uh, even if you're not a Christian. Right? Coming from that place is a perspective of working with something and understand that their mindset is so, so different, right? And so trying to, I guess, understand that in their perspective and their views on life and meet them where they're at, still have your own boundaries, still keep yourself safe, have your boundaries, right? But, uh, I think that's the way to go about it.
[01:05:31] Katie Dooley: Don't join the cult.
[01:05:33] Sarah Snyder: Oh, please. No, no, don't.
[01:05:36] Katie Dooley: Don't do that basis because of friendship.
[01:05:40] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It could turn like prisons that you can bust through the wall and be inside to help somebody out. It it's there's not a long list of success stories in that way.
[01:05:51] Katie Dooley: No. That was that was a really good question and an even better answer. Sarah.
[01:05:55] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It was. Thank you.
[01:05:55] Sarah Snyder: Thank you.
[01:05:57] Katie Dooley: I mean, it kind of speaks to almost, you know, the entire point of Holy Watermelon is just, like, better understanding of the people around us, and. Whatever. What is it? What is it? Building bridges. Not. What is that saying?
[01:06:09] Preston Meyer: Not building walls.
[01:06:11] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
[01:06:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[01:06:14] Katie Dooley: That's why Preston's my co-host. So I can I get halfway there and he gets me the rest of the way.
[01:06:20] Preston Meyer: Sometimes we finish each other's sandwiches.
[01:06:22] Katie Dooley: Sentence's. Oh.
[01:06:26] Preston Meyer: Uh, that gag just doesn't work on Zoom. There's too much delay.
[01:06:30] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Zoom, zoom. mutes you so we can't talk at the same time. Sarah, is there anything you want to rep? You want to shout anything out? You want to?
[01:06:44] Sarah Snyder: No, that's the thing. I do interviews for my business, right? And I'll rep my business for those. But for these particular podcasts, we're talking about my background, my past and God and religion. I don't I don't do it. This is what people don't understand. Sometimes I'm like, I don't do it to promote anything. I'm not a coach. I don't have a book. I don't... None of that. I literally just do it because I'm hopeful it's helpful to someone, somewhere, sometime, someplace. And and that's it. Eventually if I put up a website, I'll, I'll have you put it in the show notes but for now, no, I just hope it's helpful to someone, somewhere. And that's all.
[01:07:18] Katie Dooley: I was gonna say. When you write your book, we'll add that in the show notes.
[01:07:21] Sarah Snyder: There you go. Thank you.
[01:07:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. That's great. Thank you so much for joining us. It's great to meet you. And it's been a great conversation.
[01:07:32] Sarah Snyder: Awesome. Thank you.
[01:07:34] Katie Dooley: Sarah is yeah Sarah is one of my favorite people. And we chat religion not nearly as often as Preston I do, but, um, it's nice to have another person that, you know, we can ask questions of each other and have some good conversations, like you said, without judgment and just pure curiosity. So thank you, thank you, thank you. We've talked about this for a long time, so I'm glad it's finally happened.
[01:07:57] Sarah Snyder: Me too.
[01:08:00] Katie Dooley: Preston, what should our listeners do now?
[01:08:03] Preston Meyer: Oh, you definitely need to join us on Discord. See the great memes we share. Uh, we've got some great infographics for some of our latest episodes. Uh, we've got Patreon where you can help us make this into a bigger project, maybe do this full-time with more regular episodes. That'd be great. Uh, we also have a handful of Patreon exclusive releases, so that's always cool, right?
[01:08:32] Katie Dooley: And of course, we have our Spreadshirt. So if the subscription model isn't for you, you can buy some merch from us and rep the Holy Watermelon Podcast.
[01:08:43] Sarah Snyder: Do I get a shirt now?
[01:08:44] Katie Dooley: Do you want a shirt now?
[01:08:46] Sarah Snyder: I want a shirt.
[01:08:47] Preston Meyer: We can line that up.
[01:08:48] Katie Dooley: Well, we'll line it up for you.
[01:08:50] Sarah Snyder: Awesome, thank you.
[01:08:52] Katie Dooley: I guess that's all for this episode.
[01:08:56] Both Speakers: Peace be with you.
