The puritanical roots of western colonialism may have obscured this for some, but several religious traditions are tightly tied to the use of hallucinogenic substances. Some may find that their origins are reliant on them. In this week's episode, we explore the phenomenon, as well as a quick survey of those who might protest too much... and this time, Katie's had a bit to drink.
Entheogens are a trippy way into religion--or at least cosmic faith. Religious intoxicants aren't exactly common, but they're certainly not an oddity in the wide array of traditions on this planet. Sacraments can take a great variety of forms, from DMT to mescaline, to cannabis (marijuana), to mushrooms. Who are we to judge what others have believed for millennia? We look at sacraments of the Rastafarians, Indo-Arab Aryans, Wixáritari, and the Greeks. We also examine the American "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" of 1993.
All this and more....
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[00:00:01] Katie Dooley: Hey Preston.
[00:00:12] Preston Meyer: Hey, Katie. You look a little, uh, prepared.
[00:00:16] Katie Dooley: I am very prepared for today's episode. Accidentally prepared. Um, I'm so sorry. On today's episode of.
[00:00:29] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon Podcast.
[00:00:32] Katie Dooley: So today we're talking about drugs and religion. I had a cider on an empty stomach, so I'm a little tipsy recording this. Oops. But let's just get. I'm just getting into character. Just getting into character for the today's episode. So sorry. Um.
[00:00:56] Preston Meyer: What's terrible is that if there's going to be positive feedback about. Hey, Katie should be tipsy more often for this show. We'll have so many episodes to record before this actually airs that it'll be a little bit weird going back to it.
[00:01:11] Katie Dooley: I like it. I approve. So people, including Katie have been altering their state of mind for a very long time. And for many different reasons. Some religions are entirely based on drug use, which we'll get into. And every religion has a stance on whether or not you should be taking drugs or alcohol. So I say this episode is about drugs, but we do address alcohol consumption as well.
[00:01:34] Preston Meyer: Yeah, so kind of interesting to go through and research all of this. I've learned a little bit more than I knew before.
[00:01:40] Katie Dooley: Yeah, absolutely. Especially I mean, I knew Christianity was a gray area of religion, but Hindu has a great stance.
[00:01:47] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:01:49] Katie Dooley: Which we'll get into.
[00:01:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Let's start taking a look at those religions that are more generally opposed.
[00:01:58] Katie Dooley: Yeah. We're going to talk about, um, just the larger world religions that we talked about last year, as opposed because there's hundreds of religions that would take us forever to go through each stance. But we're going to go through the big, uh, I think big six today.
[00:02:15] Preston Meyer: All right. So Buddhism, if you remember our Buddhism episode numbers, is a big thing. And on the Eightfold Path there is a principle of right livelihood. And there's a few businesses they should avoid to be a quote unquote, good Buddhist.
[00:02:33] Katie Dooley: Yes. So to have your right livelihood.
[00:02:36] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:02:37] Katie Dooley: Now, quick, run through. Don't trade in weapons. Don't trade in human beings. Meat.
[00:02:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It expands into slave trading, prostitution.
[00:02:52] Katie Dooley: And human trafficking.
[00:02:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Just generally...
[00:02:55] Katie Dooley: Don't buy and sell other people.
[00:02:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:02:58] Katie Dooley: It's terrible. Businesses in meat. Meat referring to the bodies of beings after they are killed. So, or breeding animals specifically for slaughter. So this is where obviously vegetarianism comes into Buddhism.
[00:03:12] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Katie Dooley: And then the one that is relevant to this episode is Businesses in Intoxicants. So manufacturing or selling alcohol or drugs is prohibited. And then lastly businesses in poison. So any producing any toxics toxic chemicals designed to kill.
[00:03:33] Preston Meyer: I mean as far as right livelihood, it's pretty easy to get behind most of these. I mean, I like meat, so I can't say I agree with all of them.
[00:03:43] Katie Dooley: And I mean, I would say as an atheist, obviously, you know, the LDS church, which we'll get to, has a much firmer stance on intoxicants. But I also think intoxicants are a gray area. So, but the other three are great. Don't tell humans. Don't sell guns. Don't sell toxins. That's pretty good.
[00:04:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So there's also in the five precepts, the statement that I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness.
[00:04:15] Katie Dooley: Am I a little heedless right now?
[00:04:17] Preston Meyer: I mean, a little bit, yeah, but that's okay. But generally, if something would make you careless when you should be careful, that is a problem. Of course, situations vary an awful lot, and we're pretty safe here in the studio today.
[00:04:37] Katie Dooley: Right? So basically, Buddhists do not encourage any consumption of drugs or alcohol in any way. Uh, I made a note in this. This goes across all the religions will talk about. That doesn't mean there aren't Buddhists out there who do drugs.
[00:04:51] Preston Meyer: There's groups that differ from others. There's always exceptions to the norm. And of course, there's bad actors. We're not terribly concerned about the bad actors today.
[00:05:02] Katie Dooley: And I mean, I was yeah, I wasn't going to use the term bad whatever, because, I mean clearly we know I don't have a problem with drugs, drugs or alcohol. I don't do drugs. I feel like, can you clarify that? But I don't have problems with people who do them. So yeah. Yeah. There'll just be people who don't prescribe to this rule and still will be religious. So anyway. So don't don't at us on Discord and say, well, I know a Buddhist that drinks alcohol. Of course you do. Of course you do.
[00:05:36] Preston Meyer: Yep. Next on our list we have Islam. Alcohol and drugs are very strictly forbidden in the vast majority of Islamic traditions. The word is haram. They're pretty straightforward on it, especially opium and alcohol. A lot of other drugs are kind of newer introductions into the culture. And there's various judgments on these substances, but they're not so 100% firm as the ancient prohibition.
[00:06:09] Katie Dooley: Which would be in the Quran or the hadiths.
[00:06:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah, exactly. Coffee, kind of a new introduction into the tradition. And for a while, coffee was judged to be haram, because it's a stimulant. It does affect the brain. And so a lot of people were, like, I'm really uncomfortable with that. We're going to put a rule against it. But that judgment has been overturned in most Muslim groups.
[00:06:32] Katie Dooley: Well, and I agree. And and we've clarified a little bit on social media again about the LDS church and and pop. Um, and you know, I've heard people say before, well, because it's caffeinated it affects your brain. It's like even if it's uncaffeinated, the sugar will affect your brain. Like there's so much that affects what goes on in your brain that there'd be a lot of stuff that would be disallowed if we just went on, does it affect your brain or not?
[00:07:03] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:07:04] Katie Dooley: And then what's positive for some people is negative for others. I mean, everyone knows a paranoid cannabis user, right? Where it's fine for some people, then some people get super fucking paranoid.
[00:07:17] Preston Meyer: Paranoia associated with cannabis makes perfect sense when the most dangerous thing about cannabis is being caught with it when it's illegal.
[00:07:25] Katie Dooley: Fair or how hungry you're going to be.
[00:07:27] Preston Meyer: I mean, cannabis use does not help with weight gain.
[00:07:36] Katie Dooley: I tossed this in here because I learned this recently, and I don't know when we're going to get a chance to talk about it again. So even though it's completely unrelated. Did you know that cats are halal and dogs are haram? So I know we talked about like, you can't eat a dog. Muslims aren't even allowed to own a dog.
[00:07:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I actually did know that.
[00:07:54] Katie Dooley: Oh wow, I did not know that. But they can have pet cats, but not pet dogs. Mm.
[00:08:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I'm a cat person myself anyway.
[00:08:04] Katie Dooley: I'm a.
[00:08:05] Preston Meyer: We know you're a dog.
[00:08:06] Katie Dooley: We know where I stand on that. Get out of my house.
[00:08:09] Preston Meyer: It's not that I don't like dogs. I do just happen to have a preference.
[00:08:14] Katie Dooley: You have the wrong preference.
[00:08:20] Preston Meyer: All right.
[00:08:21] Katie Dooley: Oh, boy.
[00:08:22] Preston Meyer: Back to the subject at hand.
[00:08:24] Katie Dooley: So Islam was pretty short because they are very cut and dry, black and white.
[00:08:29] Preston Meyer: And simple. Yeah.
[00:08:30] Katie Dooley: But Judaism has a lot more gray area. And then Christianity has even more gray area than that.
[00:08:38] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:08:39] Katie Dooley: So. If you're Jewish, you believe that your body belongs to God. And therefore they encourage that you don't harm yourself.
[00:08:50] Preston Meyer: Makes sense. I mean, that's good advice anyway.
[00:08:54] Katie Dooley: Yes. So they, you know, they discourage excessive risk-taking, uh, with your health or your behaviours. So obviously, like, heroin would fall under this. But now, like I said, we have some gray areas.
[00:09:08] Preston Meyer: I feel like you're stepping way too close to that stereotype of Jews live boring lives. Be an accountant.
[00:09:17] Katie Dooley: I mean.
[00:09:19] Preston Meyer: It's a stereotype, and it's not fair.
[00:09:21] Katie Dooley: Thank you. That's exactly what I was going to say, Preston. Um, but that means. Right? Like. I mean, cannabis is legal in Canada. So how harmful is it? Obviously, you know, maybe excessive use, just like excessive alcohol. You don't want to, but if you imbibe, sometimes it's not particularly risky. So now we have this gray area in Judaism.
[00:09:44] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, I actually recently found some stuff that are some articles that talked about how they found cannabis residue in some of the holy spaces in Old Israel.
[00:09:58] Katie Dooley: Cool.
[00:09:59] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Dating way back to about 800 BC. They found some residue that's like. Yeah with this here, we're pretty sure it was part of religious use, which is entirely possible. They were all about having a little smoke censers thing in the temple and all over Israel you would have smaller altars where they would burn stuff for the gods, which we'll get back to a little bit later. And also alcohol, pretty normal thing in Judaism. Wine for every Sabbath. Pretty standard deal.
[00:10:39] Katie Dooley: There is ritual and religious use of alcohol in Judaism. The most common being Purim and Simchat Torah, which is the Ritual reading the Torah on the Shabbat.
[00:10:55] Preston Meyer: And if you watched One of Us with us at our movie night a little while ago, you'll notice that they have no problem with cigarettes in the Hasidic community.
[00:11:03] Katie Dooley: Lots of smokers in that movie.
[00:11:05] Preston Meyer: And I feel pretty comfortable assuming generally this is true of most Jewish communities.
[00:11:11] Katie Dooley: Which is actually interesting to me because we know how bad it is for your health. But I guess it's such a long-term decline, right? You're not going to overdose on cigarettes
[00:11:23] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:11:23] Katie Dooley: It's a long it's a long game.
[00:11:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So and then of course there was the nazirites like Samson or myself for a very short time back when we were first starting this podcast of this oath to never drink or consume anything made from grapes. So the Nazirites were kind of an exception to the standard Jewish practice. Don't drink wine.
[00:11:48] Katie Dooley: But it is a very niche. There aren't any...
[00:11:51] Preston Meyer: There's not a lot of nazarites.
[00:11:53] Katie Dooley: Running around right now. But an interesting exception to the rule to make note of. Then we have Christianity, which, thanks to Protestantism, which we've been talking about for the last couple of weeks. Um, there's different takes.
[00:12:06] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Katie Dooley: Different takes.
[00:12:07] Preston Meyer: A lot of different opinions from a lot of different sources. The, the puritanical movement got way into...
[00:12:16] Katie Dooley: Prohibition. Teetotalers!
[00:12:18] Preston Meyer: Yes. The Teetotalers and their prohibition.
[00:12:21] Katie Dooley: Yeah. That was a religious backed uh, initiative. So predominantly that was Baptists and Methodists that were big influences on the temperance movement. And we all know how well that worked.
[00:12:36] Preston Meyer: It just meant more violence and crime as people continued to drink, but got in bigger fights.
[00:12:42] Katie Dooley: And more people went blind because they were drinking.
[00:12:44] Preston Meyer: Moonshine.
[00:12:45] Katie Dooley: Moonshine.
[00:12:46] Preston Meyer: Bad moonshine.
[00:12:47] Katie Dooley: Don't drink bad moonshine. Christians do across the board have the general stance like don't do hard drugs. I think most people have the general stance of don't do hard drugs.
[00:12:56] Preston Meyer: Don't do things that aren't healthy for you, more or less. Yeah.
[00:13:00] Katie Dooley: So it really comes down to, um, alcohol consumption in Christianity. I think cannabis use is probably not discussed too, too much. I don't I feel like that's like cigarette smoking where they probably just don't care unless you are one of the more. I don't know if conservative is the right term to use, but like a Latter Day Saints don't drink. I'm sure their stance on cannabis is the same.
[00:13:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Pretty much. Well, so the don't drink thing. There's exceptions to that in the LDS tradition.
[00:13:31] Katie Dooley: Really?
[00:13:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:13:32] Katie Dooley: Tell me. I did not know this. I know, like you can, if I like, cooked with wine. My chicken. You're allowed to eat my chicken.
[00:13:41] Preston Meyer: And there's very, very little alcohol left in it by the time you consume it. So cooking with alcohol? Not a problem because eating alcohol ends up not usually being part of that practice. Uh, but the communion that is done every Sunday is usually water in the tradition.
[00:14:03] Katie Dooley: Right, that's what I thought yeah.
[00:14:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah. But there are cases. Well, generally speaking, it can be any liquid, but water is preferred. But you actually are allowed to use wine as long as the wine is produced by a member of the church. And so there are several congregations around the world that regularly use Latter Day Saint-produced wine for the communion.
[00:14:27] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:14:28] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:14:29] Katie Dooley: I think it's interesting that a Latter Day Saint would be interested in making wine. Right. Because you've grown up being told no.
[00:14:37] Preston Meyer: Yeah, and I think that's why it's such a small.
[00:14:41] Katie Dooley: Small portion.
[00:14:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Katie Dooley: You should make some wine, Preston.
[00:14:44] Preston Meyer: Honestly, I have no interest because I hate the taste of the wines that I have tried.
[00:14:49] Katie Dooley: Um, I like, want to figure this out.
[00:14:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's a it's a real thing and it's it's not even really an exception to the rule. It's a reversion to the standard when everybody's comfortable with it kind of thing.
[00:15:08] Katie Dooley: I feel like you don't know the answer to the question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Would there be members of the church who would decline member made wine?
[00:15:17] Preston Meyer: Very likely.
[00:15:18] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:15:20] Preston Meyer: I can't say I've gone and done a survey, but.
[00:15:23] Katie Dooley: Does it need to be like a consensus? Like we're going to drink Bob's wine? Or if you want Bob's wine, you can have it. If not, there's water.
[00:15:31] Preston Meyer: I feel like the situation would be bishop approves wine. Somebody goes, I don't want this red stuff. And then afterwards goes to the bishop and say, don't do that. And then they have a long talk with the bishop and the bishop says it's okay. And then the naysayer is like, well, I'm not gonna. And then they have to decide if they're going to change it to be more inclusive and they probably would.
[00:15:56] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:15:57] Preston Meyer: Thank you. That's how I see that.
[00:15:59] Katie Dooley: Thank you for that uh sideshow.
[00:16:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:16:05] Katie Dooley: General rule. Most Christian denominations again, there are a few exceptions, like the LDS church figures since JC, Jesus Christ drank wine, that it's okay to drink wine and alcohol in moderation.
[00:16:18] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And the way it's developed in the LDS tradition is kind of interesting that, um, a lot of people think that Joseph Smith said, don't drink wine, don't drink any alcohol. Not true. He specifically forbade what is classified as strong drinks. We're talking like whiskey. Yeah. So wine doesn't qualify as a strong drink, and it's fine. Beer doesn't count as a strong drink and was fine.
[00:16:47] Katie Dooley: He's literally saying this to someone who's tipsy on cider on an empty stomach. So, yes!
[00:16:56] Preston Meyer: But it wasn't until Brigham Young was the head of the church and they were... They decided to crack down on things just a little bit more and really decided, okay, this rule against drunkenness isn't enough because people are still drinking and getting more drunk than they should be. And so we're just gonna say, no, cut it out outright. Let's just say no more alcohol.
[00:17:23] Katie Dooley: How? I don't know if you know... How much time... How close was this to the temperance movement? Because I feel like a lot of this was happening at the same time where, looking back, I'm sure, as mental health was just collapsing and everyone was drinking to excess, because that was where the temperance movements began, as you know.
[00:17:40] Preston Meyer: What year is are we looking at for the at for the temperance movement?
[00:17:43] Katie Dooley: I don't have my phone on me because I'm a good podcaster?
[00:17:48] Preston Meyer: All right, well, let's whip out my Google.
[00:17:50] Katie Dooley: Ew, Preston.
[00:17:53] Preston Meyer: That's not what I call it.
[00:17:55] Katie Dooley: Oh, wow.
[00:17:57] Katie Dooley: Cause I just feel like a lot of this overlapped.
[00:18:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah, this would have been before the the widespread temperance movement.
[00:18:04] Katie Dooley: But, like, how long before?
[00:18:06] Preston Meyer: A couple of decades.
[00:18:07] Katie Dooley: Okay. But not like 200 years before.
[00:18:10] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:18:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:18:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Yes. Tradition isn't that old. We're just reaching 200 years now.
[00:18:17] Katie Dooley: Oh. Happy birthday. Yeah, I just felt like there was a whole, like, movement, but I guess two decades in the grand scheme of things isn't that far apart. So they were just ahead of the curve.
[00:18:30] Preston Meyer: Sure. I mean, outright banning tobacco, which did happen during Joseph Smith's time, was way ahead of the curve.
[00:18:38] Katie Dooley: Wow. We didn't even know it caused cause cancer then.
[00:18:41] Preston Meyer: Right? We didn't really have a good idea of any of the health.
[00:18:45] Katie Dooley: Interesting. That is actually interesting.
[00:18:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah, because he banned it in the 1830s. And we learned the harmful effects of tobacco and what, the 90s.
[00:18:53] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah. No, that is actually really interesting because, I mean, you can visibly see the harm that alcohol. Alcohol.
[00:19:03] Preston Meyer: We've got a long history with alcohol. It's kind of obvious.
[00:19:06] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Right. And I mean, if you look at old temperance things, it was because they were drunk men in the... And I know a lot of this is propaganda, but drunk men in the streets and beating their wives and missing work and spending all their money on alcohol, like we can visibly see the ramifications of drinking to excess. But like smoking, we don't see it until. Yeah, you know, 40 years later and you're dying of lung cancer. So that is actually super interesting that he banned it in the 1830s.
[00:19:32] Preston Meyer: Well, and it's kind of nifty that in the same breath almost as saying, hey, don't use tobacco for chew or smoke or anything like that. He does lay out why it's so useful for us that it's good for treating bruises, which apparently had been a thing for a long time that nobody does anymore.
[00:19:52] Katie Dooley: Like you just put it on.
[00:19:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:19:55] Katie Dooley: A bruise?
[00:19:55] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I think you paste it.
[00:19:57] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:19:58] Preston Meyer: And then, yeah. But nobody does that anymore.
[00:20:02] Katie Dooley: I don't even know where you get tobacco leaves to make a paste. I know where you can get dried tobacco to smoke, but not...
[00:20:10] Preston Meyer: Well, you might be able to try it out with snuff, but I bet you it's probably not going to work.
[00:20:16] Katie Dooley: Snuff has too many chemicals in it, for sure.
[00:20:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I don't think you want that on your skin.
[00:20:21] Katie Dooley: You don't? No. Okay.
[00:20:26] Preston Meyer: Anyway.
[00:20:28] Katie Dooley: So what about religions that like drugs?
[00:20:33] Preston Meyer: Oh, man. So there's a whole bunch of them, and I'm going to drop a new word on you.
[00:20:39] Katie Dooley: Okay. I love words.
[00:20:40] Preston Meyer: The new word is entheogen.
[00:20:43] Katie Dooley: Entheogen.
[00:20:44] Preston Meyer: And it is a pretty new word as people have been studying psychedelics and religion together. A fellow named Carl Ruck kind of coined this word. Entheos is the Greek word that more or less means full of God, or God is within. Uh, the word enthusiasm. If you're feeling enthusiastic, you got God in you. That's what the word means.
[00:21:08] Katie Dooley: Oh, really? Wow.
[00:21:09] Preston Meyer: And so the entheogen is that you are becoming full of God with this substance. So it's used to describe psychoactive plants and funguses fungi that have been used to facilitate spiritual experiences. Carl Ruck said, in a strict sense, only those vision producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens, but in a looser sense the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness. Similar to those documented for for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens. So now you have a new word.
[00:21:53] Katie Dooley: Cool. Thank you so much.
[00:21:54] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:21:54] Katie Dooley: Put that in my back pocket.
[00:21:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The idea is that they when talking about religious drug trips. They don't want to use the word hallucinogen because it's just I guess doesn't match exactly what the function is. And psychedelics also doesn't pair nicely in this field of study I guess.
[00:22:19] Katie Dooley: It is it is interesting and I don't know if you I added some notes sort of to that point of like there's almost like an intent of why you're using drugs and neither of us are drug users. So if you're if you're listening, post on Discord, but it sounds like there's like this intent to why you're doing it can actually change for sure the experience you're having. I think some of that is also your background too. So we'll talk about a study they did at Johns Hopkins.
[00:22:48] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah.
[00:22:48] Katie Dooley: Did you read that?
[00:22:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah I did.
[00:22:49] Katie Dooley: Yeah. They gave a bunch of drugs to religious leaders so...
[00:22:53] Preston Meyer: We'll get into that. All right. So most famously, the Rastafari are very pro-cannabis.
[00:23:03] Katie Dooley: Yep. It's probably the most famous drug religion.
[00:23:07] Preston Meyer: And only famous, really because of Bob Marley. And then later on, Snoop Dogg.
[00:23:13] Katie Dooley: And just like, I think there's this North American drug culture that, like.
[00:23:20] Preston Meyer: That latched on to those two figures very strongly.
[00:23:23] Katie Dooley: Those two figures, but also like for so many years, until recently, we had the Marijuana Party of Canada where it's like, okay, so now I'm like allowed to do it, right? So if I say I'm a Rastafari. Then I can do it. You know what I mean? Like, just as an excuse to smoke weed. As opposed to actually being in the belief system and the culture of.
[00:23:46] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:23:47] Katie Dooley: Rastafarianism.
[00:23:48] Preston Meyer: So an excellent example of the negative form of cultural appropriation.
[00:23:55] Katie Dooley: Yes. And it will one day do. It's on our list of full episode on Rastafari. Super misunderstood because we do that to predominantly black religions. Thanks racism.
[00:24:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's a bummer.
[00:24:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah, just like Voodoo. It's... people think it's one thing and it's another.
[00:24:15] Preston Meyer: Right. It doesn't help that Rastafarianism is relatively new. Like it's about 100 years old. Like, not even yet, which is a little bit weird and easy to forget sometimes. But cannabis is very important. Just in the same way that there was special incense that we burned in the temples and at the altars in Judaism, and starting to look like there's evidence that that included cannabis. The Rastafari tradition leans heavily into this idea. Before we had archeological evidence to back it up.
[00:24:50] Katie Dooley: You're on to something.
[00:24:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's kind of cool. Scholastically speaking anyway. And most Rastafarians, I think, identify as Jewish or Jewish adjacent, which is kind of cool. They do use the Hebrew Bible, and there's a good handful of passages in it that reinforce the practice pretty nicely. So there's a part in Genesis chapter three that says, thou shalt eat the herb of the field. So yeah, that's.
[00:25:20] Katie Dooley: That's I mean, it's not a crop.
[00:25:22] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:25:22] Katie Dooley: They said herb.
[00:25:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah, yeah, that's the trick. It's pretty wide open. It can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. It certainly can't be used against Rastafarianism.
[00:25:32] Katie Dooley: There aren't a lot of field herbs.
[00:25:34] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:25:35] Katie Dooley: Truly.
[00:25:36] Preston Meyer: We got dill.
[00:25:37] Katie Dooley: That is. Yeah.
[00:25:40] Preston Meyer: Then in Exodus chapter ten, it says, eat every herb of the land. Now that's a little bit more explicit of if it's there, it's good. So easy enough to jump on board with that and go with this. And then in Proverbs chapter 15, there's a great line that says better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a stalled ox and hatred therewith. So basically that means that it's good to have a meal without any meat, which is nonstandard in the Jewish tradition. If there is love of the table, then to have the expected meat and be surrounded with people that suck or who hate you.
[00:26:28] Katie Dooley: Ah well, good thing we're having a vegetarian meal with love tonight.
[00:26:32] Preston Meyer: Yay!
[00:26:34] Katie Dooley: I don't know. We're having pizza. There could be meat on it.
[00:26:36] Preston Meyer: I expect there to be meat.
[00:26:39] Katie Dooley: If you have your say.
[00:26:41] Preston Meyer: Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:44] Katie Dooley: It's important to note that Rastafari discouraged the use of other drugs and alcohol, and that cannabis isn't meant to be used lightly or recreationally. It is a sacrament to connect with God. You don't just like blaze it, 420.
[00:27:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:27:04] Katie Dooley: Can you tell that I don't.
[00:27:07] Preston Meyer: Uh, don't have the lingo, not part of the culture.
[00:27:10] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:27:10] Preston Meyer: Basically, the cannabis is meant to be smoked at groundings and a couple other things sometimes, but it's a special religious thing. Not a pastime, not a thing to do because you're bored or it's Friday night and let's light up. It's obviously very different from a lot of the appropriation that we have seen.
[00:27:36] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. In addition to smoking cannabis, which is the most common way to partake at these grounding ceremonies, they often use it as a tea or in or as a cooking herb.
[00:27:49] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Yeah. And there's I mean there's so many different things that you can do with cannabis. Moving on to the Hindus, what they do is kind of novel. In India there's this thing called bhang, which sounds a lot like bong but isn't.
[00:28:05] Katie Dooley: B-h-a-n-g, bhang.
[00:28:07] Preston Meyer: So bhang is a paste made from cannabis leaves. And it's legal because it's the leaves, not the flowers or the fruits or the buds.
[00:28:17] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:28:17] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's weird that they've defined cannabis legally as a specific parts of the plant in India, to being the flowers and the fruits and also the stems is part of it too.
[00:28:33] Katie Dooley: Is illegal?
[00:28:34] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:28:35] Katie Dooley: But the leaves are good to go.
[00:28:36] Preston Meyer: The leaves are good to go.
[00:28:40] Katie Dooley: Well, so they can smear it on toast or drink it mixed with milk.
[00:28:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's like your Nesquik, except green and thick.
[00:28:51] Katie Dooley: I mean, I don't like the smell of cannabis, so I can't imagine that tasting good, but...
[00:28:56] Preston Meyer: That's my problem.
[00:28:58] Katie Dooley: Just like I don't understand why Preston doesn't like wine. I'm sure someone's thinking I'm crazy.
[00:29:04] Preston Meyer: Sure. Yeah. So bhang is typically associated with Krishna, who is one of the great figures of Hinduism, pretty widely worshiped as well as the holiday Holi, especially in northern India. You'll find it a much bigger deal, which is kind of interesting. But that's not all, Hinduism also diversifies!
[00:29:28] Katie Dooley: Yes, So the Rigveda. So this is one of their religious texts, mentions the spiritual use of a psychedelic drink called soma. So the quote from the book says, we have drunk soma and become immortal. We have attained the light and discovered the gods. What can our enemies mouths do to harm us now?
[00:29:45] Preston Meyer: So this is a really empowering drug. My instinct is to jump to, like, PCP, but I don't know for sure. And it's actually still a mystery.
[00:29:59] Katie Dooley: Yeah, there's... We don't really know what Soma is. It's the name of the drink as well as the name of the plant, but also the god associated with them according to the Vedas.
[00:30:10] Preston Meyer: But without a good handy drawing in the book.
[00:30:14] Katie Dooley: We don't. We don't know what they're referring to.
[00:30:17] Preston Meyer: I... it's it's kind of weird that it has fallen out of common use so that it has become a mystery. Maybe there's somebody in the depths of the Indian rainforest that knows and still uses it, and we just haven't made contact with them. I don't know. But as it stands right now, we only have guesses on what soma is.
[00:30:40] Katie Dooley: What are some of those guesses?
[00:30:43] Preston Meyer: We've got guesses that maybe it's the ephedra flower, or maybe the harmala or esfand flower, which sounds like a terrible idea because that stuff will kill cows.
[00:30:53] Katie Dooley: Cool.
[00:30:56] Preston Meyer: That's some mighty potent stuff. Uh, there's also the gold cap, psilocybin mushrooms, the magic mushrooms you hear so much about. Right. A lot of people think that might be the key ingredient. And then there's also the Amanita mushrooms, which those are the.
[00:31:14] Katie Dooley: Mushrooms.
[00:31:14] Preston Meyer: The ridiculous mushrooms of Mario, the red with the white spots. And those things are so incredibly, powerfully intoxicant that when it passes through your system and into your bladder and you pee it out. It'll still offer a trip to whoever's willing to drink that urine. But not just that guy. He can pee it out. It can go through this cycle five times and still have an intoxicant effect.
[00:31:39] Katie Dooley: Wow. I don't I don't think I'd want to be the first person to take it.
[00:31:46] Preston Meyer: Right? It can be lethal to the first person. Not always.
[00:31:51] Katie Dooley: How do you get their pee, then?
[00:31:52] Preston Meyer: Okay, so in some places, there's stories of people who are just so poor, but so desperate for a trip that they'll go out with a wooden bowl and catch it when somebody comes out of the party to take a leak. And then they'll hide in their little dark corner and they'll they'll enjoy it for themselves. And you can recycle it for so long. This is actually a thing that we saw as really handy for the Viking Berserkers. That they would have somebody consume the mushrooms, and then the Berserkers would drink that person's urine and intoxicated enough that they could go through the battle and not worry about pain and blood loss, but without the risk of the red mushroom firsthand.
[00:32:46] Katie Dooley: I don't know if I think that's disturbing or super cool.
[00:32:49] Preston Meyer: I mean.
[00:32:50] Katie Dooley: I'm kind.
[00:32:50] Preston Meyer: It's interesting.
[00:32:51] Katie Dooley: Yeah, that's a better word. It's a more politically correct word.
[00:32:55] Preston Meyer: Yeah. We actually didn't talk about the Berserkers in our Norse mythology episode.
[00:32:59] Katie Dooley: No.
[00:33:00] Preston Meyer: Uh, the Berserkers are kind of cool. That's... I mean, it's not really an aspect of their religion, but their interpersonal, cultural tradition where they would send people who would where would they call them bear shirts? That's what Berserker means, where they would have a pelt of a bear with the head on, and that would be kind of their hood. And yeah, they would they would do this. And they were so raving mad that they were called shield biters because this was a thing they would also do. Crazy stuff.
[00:33:33] Katie Dooley: That is. Drugs, man. Drugs.
[00:33:36] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:33:39] Katie Dooley: We just talked about the Buddhist, Preston.
[00:33:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It turns out there's exceptions.
[00:33:44] Katie Dooley: What? Exceptions to rules. No.
[00:33:48] Preston Meyer: Not all groups are so teetotaly. Uh, most groups do advise against mind-altering drugs of all kinds. But some tantric and casual traditions actually encourage the use of Amanita mushrooms, the ones that make people into shield biters.
[00:34:08] Katie Dooley: Oh, okay. That's terrifying.
[00:34:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah. They're particularly popular among Mahasiddha Buddhists. About a thousand years ago, from the eighth to the 12th century, it was really common. But there's also a growing advocacy among Western Buddhists lately.
[00:34:25] Katie Dooley: What? Western people want to do more drugs? No.
[00:34:27] Preston Meyer: Right. And just use religion as an excuse. Mhm.
[00:34:35] Katie Dooley: Well, it's an interesting exception to the rule.
[00:34:37] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:34:38] Katie Dooley: Another one. And we, we talk about this pretty broadly because there are so many divisions to North American indigenous religion. It really depends on what tribe you're a part of, what part of North America you're a part of. But we had to talk about peyote.
[00:34:54] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:34:57] Katie Dooley: So not common in Canada because it's a cactus. So we don't have peyote up here. So this is not a part of Canadian North American indigenous religions.
[00:35:07] Preston Meyer: You got to go a little further south.
[00:35:08] Katie Dooley: A little further south. That's like Arizona, New Mexico.
[00:35:12] Preston Meyer: Northern Mexico and the states that border it.
[00:35:16] Katie Dooley: Is where you'll find peyote used in their indigenous religion practices.
[00:35:21] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:35:22] Katie Dooley: So it is a cactus that produces mescaline and has been used ritually for more than 5000 years.
[00:35:29] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:35:30] Katie Dooley: A peyote trip usually takes up your whole day.
[00:35:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we're talking like ten, 12 hours.
[00:35:36] Katie Dooley: You know, the double rainbow meme?
[00:35:38] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:35:38] Katie Dooley: He was on peyote.
[00:35:39] Preston Meyer: That's not even surprising.
[00:35:41] Katie Dooley: Just. Wow.
[00:35:44] Both Speakers: Double rainbow.
[00:35:47] Katie Dooley: All the way across the sky. Yeah, he was on peyote. So, but it's nature, right? We're eating a cactus. I don't actually know how you take peyote.
[00:36:00] Preston Meyer: I don't know how it's prepared, but you just straight up eat it.
[00:36:06] Katie Dooley: I'm sure you could. Yeah. There's no solidly reliable stats on precise mescaline content in a particular peyote button.
[00:36:13] Preston Meyer: Because natural things are always unpredictable. Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:19] Katie Dooley: It is known to cause auditory and visual hallucinations. While the double rainbow was real, I'm sure he saw a lot more than that.
[00:36:26] Preston Meyer: He very likely did.
[00:36:28] Katie Dooley: And is credited with all sorts of spiritual insights.
[00:36:32] Preston Meyer: You just feel close to God. Sometimes you'll hear the whisperings of God. At the very least, you're definitely going to hear your subconscious reach out and become a lot more part of your conscious life for a minute.
[00:36:49] Katie Dooley: Research shows that peyote, in isolation from other substances, has no long-term cognitive effects, and does not create a physical dependency. That's actually kind of cool.
[00:36:59] Preston Meyer: Right? But like anything else that you really like, there's a possibility for a psychological dependency.
[00:37:07] Katie Dooley: Right. You want that whatever, escape.
[00:37:09] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Chasing the dragon. Right?
[00:37:12] Katie Dooley: I wouldn't know, but some people would.
[00:37:16] Preston Meyer: A phrase that I've only ever heard from a DARE presentation.
[00:37:20] Katie Dooley: I was going to say from cops in junior high. Yeah. So mescaline is a controlled substance in both the US and Canada, but peyote is legal for religious and personal use. Get a little peyote cactus in your house just go. It is. Peyote is commercially available as anilinium from dispensaries, where it is advertised to treat hysteria.
[00:37:47] Preston Meyer: Which, of course is a nonsense diagnosis.
[00:37:51] Katie Dooley: Just so you can get whatever you want to get a vibrator, peyote, just cite hysteria.
[00:37:58] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Good times. As I dug into this, I thought it was really nifty to find that, though. I'm going to try and say this. I have not said it many times before. The Wixaritari religious tradition, which is centered in northern Mexico and also the also the bordering American states has four primary gods. There's more as you get into the more complicated doctrines. But there there's the eagle, the deer, corn and peyote.
[00:38:32] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:38:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So peyote is not just like a sacrament.
[00:38:36] Katie Dooley: It's a god.
[00:38:37] Preston Meyer: One of their important gods.
[00:38:39] Katie Dooley: God they get to munch on just like corn and deer, I would guess. You don't munch on an eagle.
[00:38:45] Preston Meyer: No, no, you don't munch on an eagle. Or at least I've never heard of it being a thing. But I thought that was really nifty.
[00:38:56] Katie Dooley: Yeah, that is really interesting.
[00:38:59] Preston Meyer: But even back in the ancient Greeks, they were into their mind-altering substances, too. The Eleusinian Mysteries used kykeon. There's a few different formulas that are associated with kykeon, but the common intent is to get you drunk. Historians think that ergot, a psychoactive fungus, commonly tainted their barley, and that that was actually the thing that made.
[00:39:25] Katie Dooley: The trip interesting.
[00:39:27] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:39:28] Katie Dooley: That's cool. Rye beer that gets you high, right?
[00:39:32] Preston Meyer: Mushroom beer.
[00:39:33] Katie Dooley: Mushroom beer. Isn't that just kombucha?
[00:39:37] Preston Meyer: I don't know, what kombucha?
[00:39:38] Katie Dooley: Kombucha is made from mushrooms. Oh, we're gonna we're gonna go on a kombucha trip when we're done.
[00:39:44] Preston Meyer: Oh, are we now?
[00:39:46] Katie Dooley: It's like mushroom tea. But I'm gonna show you a scoby, and you'll hate me for the rest of your life.
[00:39:53] Preston Meyer: Well, we'll see how that goes. Okay, this may be the last episode.
[00:39:56] Katie Dooley: Maybe the last episode. Uh, don't Google Scobys unless you want to be disturbed.
[00:40:03] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:40:03] Katie Dooley: But I'm gonna show you. You don't get a choice, Preston.
[00:40:06] Preston Meyer: Um, also, in old Greece, oracles, especially the Delphic oracles, also used to trip on some mystery substance. Some people say it was mists that would just come out of the ground.
[00:40:19] Katie Dooley: No
[00:40:19] Preston Meyer: That's unless we're talking about spores coming from mushrooms in the ground, in their tents and huts and whatnot. I think that's really unlikely. I think there's more to it.
[00:40:27] Katie Dooley: Smoking something.
[00:40:29] Preston Meyer: Probably, but it's an undetermined substance. We don't know what's up. But generally speaking, scholars are pretty sure they were high on something.
[00:40:39] Katie Dooley: What is the union of plants?
[00:40:42] Preston Meyer: Ah the union of the plants was a Brazilian Christian group very syncretic. They combined a lot of their pre-colonization indigenous religion elements into Christianity in Brazil, and then have spread around the world since 1961, when they were founded. And so there's a bunch in the USA and they love huasca tea or ayahuasca. It's not technically tea. It's not made from the tea plant, but they make a beverage out of it the same way you would make tea.
[00:41:19] Katie Dooley: It's a herbal tea. Then if it's not made from the tea plant.
[00:41:22] Preston Meyer: I guess and so for all those Mormons who are like, I don't only drink herbal tea. Watch yourself. Right.
[00:41:30] Katie Dooley: Because you won't get high.
[00:41:32] Preston Meyer: Uh, so ayahuasca is made from the leaves of the mariri and chacruna plants, and it contains a lot of DMT, which isn't a terrible thing for the body. Your body does naturally produce a little bit of DMT. Not nearly the levels you see in these plants. And it's part of a sacrament of the church. Super important. Um, just like the Rastafarian cannabis, it's not meant to be abused. It's just for the sacrament in the church. Uh, UCLA actually says that these people are healthier than the average Americans. So that's kind of interesting.
[00:42:18] Katie Dooley: I feel like that's not a great...
[00:42:20] Preston Meyer: I mean, it's a low bar.
[00:42:20] Katie Dooley: Baseline, but that's good.
[00:42:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So over the years, especially since through the 90s, it became a really big problem. American police seized a lot of huasca tea as it crossed the border. And then for years, years of fighting in the courts. In 2006, the Supreme Court decided that since it's connected to a religion, it's actually a good excuse for breaking the laws against drug imports and consumption, which sounds a little bit funky, but they cited the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was a thing that was signed into law very shortly after Bill Clinton took over as president of the US. Yeah, and deviating a little bit from our main course, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is actually kind of kind of interesting. It promises the free exercise of religion can break existing laws. If there is no good reason for the government to enforce the laws in a way that would be detrimental to the group being policed. So if I'm doing drugs for a religious purpose and it doesn't hurt anybody, I get to keep doing it even though it's illegal.
[00:43:37] Katie Dooley: Which is why I'm kind of on the let's decriminalize all dwugs. Dwugs, drugs, let's decriminalize all drugs. Because truthfully, for the most part, you're only hurting yourself. Which is I'm not saying that's a good thing but then it breaks this this chain of supply.
[00:43:56] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Yeah. If drugs are legal you get a much safer chain of supply and you.
[00:44:04] Katie Dooley: Can monitor and.
[00:44:06] Preston Meyer: And it's a lot less scary to get help.
[00:44:08] Katie Dooley: Yep.
[00:44:09] Preston Meyer: All kinds of benefits. So basically if your church regularly or traditionally uses mescaline or DMT or cannabis. If it's not causing any harm, you have the green light according to the Supreme Court of the United States of America, if you're outside of America, you're going to have to rely on a different authority or figure something else out.
[00:44:30] Katie Dooley: Stick with cannabis in Canada, it's fine.
[00:44:32] Preston Meyer: Right? Which I thought was really interesting as I read up on this. This is a defense that polygamists are very likely to use because if it's not hurting anybody, we're going to exercise our freedom of religion.
[00:44:44] Katie Dooley: I have no problem with polygamy, right?
[00:44:47] Preston Meyer: Honestly, it it feels really weird to me that we have any laws at all that refer to marriage, all of the bad things about marriage, like using it to control people who are too young, because we have decided to allow old people to marry 13-year-old girls. If we don't have laws about marriage, that doesn't mean, oh yeah, now we can have old people marry seven-year-olds. It means that a marriage has no power over those people.
[00:45:16] Katie Dooley: Interesting. Interesting. I just think as long as it's consenting adults and I mean, we've definitely all watched the TLC like Sister Wives.
[00:45:25] Preston Meyer: No, I have not.
[00:45:28] Katie Dooley: I'm surprised, I'm shocked. But there's a few. There's a few of them and they're all like FLDS.
[00:45:32] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:45:32] Katie Dooley: And I wonder how happy they are if they're just doing it for religious reasons. Um, but if you were like, ah, literally like, I would like a second wife and everyone's on board and like, as long as you don't feel like you're pressured to, for religious reasons, go hard, my friend. I remember watching years ago an episode of QI with Stephen Fry. It's a British game show. Um, I highly recommend if you haven't checked it out. And he basically was like, how is polygamy illegal with consenting adults and adultery is legal when it's non-consensual for obviously the person that's being cheated on.
[00:46:09] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:46:10] Katie Dooley: He's like that like, that makes no sense.
[00:46:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:46:13] Katie Dooley: Not that I think people should go to jail or be for adultery, but, like.
[00:46:17] Preston Meyer: Change the other law.
[00:46:19] Katie Dooley: I don't know. Again, as long as you're a consenting adult, I don't care.
[00:46:22] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I have a couple of friends that are openly polyamorous and a few more friends that openly advocate for it without being into it themselves. So it's I think I am seeing a lot more outside of religious contexts.
[00:46:38] Katie Dooley: And I think that's the key piece is, you know, you see all these sad sister wives on television. It's like, how, how into this are you? Uh, but I also believe that there are polyamorous people out there. I don't... It's valid.Um, so yeah why not go hard. Go hard all seven of you like together? Not that there's only seven polyamorous people. I'm picturing that one of our listeners is in a seven-way relationship.
[00:47:08] Preston Meyer: Uh, generally speaking, there are a lot of scholars who think that these drug trips are the seeds of religion. That religion wouldn't have existed without these kinds of hallucinations. Easy enough to speculate on. I think it gets a lot trickier when you try and get specific. I don't.
[00:47:27] Katie Dooley: I mean, I think some of this comes it's hard because everything's so old, right? But I like I know enough people that are artists in whatever sense that will get high to create art.
[00:47:39] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:47:39] Katie Dooley: So maybe you get high and then wrote your gospel. Right? And you fleshed it out when you were sober. Ernest Hemingway said, write drunk, edit sober. So.
[00:47:49] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:47:50] Katie Dooley: Um, I've tried that for design. It was terrible.
[00:47:54] Preston Meyer: I bet.
[00:47:55] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It's brutal. Uh, right. So I think there I mean, it's all speculation, right? But, uh, you know, there could be something that's 5000 years old and someone smoked a bunch of peyote and then wrote a religious book. We don't know. We don't know.
[00:48:16] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's all guesses. Most of history is guesswork until we find hard, concrete evidence. And even then, it's tricky to interpret the concrete evidence that we get.
[00:48:28] Katie Dooley: And then throw in drugs, which happen all in your head.
[00:48:32] Preston Meyer: Right? It's tricky.
[00:48:35] Katie Dooley: Which makes a 2017 study by Johns Hopkins a super interesting study. So what they did is they found about two dozen religious leaders and just gave them a bunch of magic mushrooms. It was more controlled than that. But that was the premise.
[00:48:50] Preston Meyer: There was a control group, too.
[00:48:53] Katie Dooley: And they picked religious leaders across multiple religions. The only two they struggled to find was a Muslim imam, which isn't surprising.
[00:49:02] Preston Meyer: Because they would be pretty strictly against it.
[00:49:04] Katie Dooley: And a Hindu priest, which I thought was weird because Hindus pretty loosey goosey about drug use.
[00:49:09] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Oh, well.
[00:49:11] Katie Dooley: But they couldn't find them. So generally, the participants reported having deep, transcendental, transcendental religious experiences as opposed to just like a wild acid trip. No double rainbows here.
[00:49:26] Preston Meyer: But maybe other colors. Maybe just not in the convenient rainbow shape.
[00:49:31] Katie Dooley: Right. So they all had these deep religious experiences as opposed to just being high and eating snacks.
[00:49:39] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:49:40] Katie Dooley: You can tell Preston I have no experience whatsoever. They also reported a more universal view on religion. So this was a trend that they viewed each other as different paths to the same goal as opposed to. I mean obviously if you're willing to take mushrooms you're a pretty chill clergy member. But uh, as opposed to opponents, they saw the, I guess, like the bigger picture and that we're all the same man.
[00:50:13] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:50:14] Katie Dooley: So I thought that.
[00:50:14] Preston Meyer: The Dude Abides.
[00:50:15] Katie Dooley: The Dude Abides. So I thought that was also really interesting, especially when we get into I mean, obviously in North America we see a lot of Christian fundamentalism and they're hard line. And and then here they're leaders getting high and they're like, nah man it's good.
[00:50:30] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Yeah it's kind of a cool study.
[00:50:35] Katie Dooley: I thought it was great. I recommend reading up on it.
[00:50:38] Preston Meyer: So yeah tricky thing to talk about when we don't have any first-hand experience for the vast majority of things we've talked about today.
[00:50:45] Katie Dooley: Right?
[00:50:47] Preston Meyer: Uh, armchair scholarship it is.
[00:50:52] Katie Dooley: Uh, but if you've used drugs to have a religious experience, we'd love to interview you for the Holy Watermelon podcast.
[00:50:58] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I think that'd be a good time.
[00:51:00] Katie Dooley: Yeah. What else do we need at the Holy Watermelon Podcast, Preston.
[00:51:05] Preston Meyer: Oh, if you want to tell us more without throwing your voice out for the whole world, you can join us on our Discord and just share your words without the voice behind them. We have some good discussions on Discord, great memes and all. We've got our merch on Spreadshop that's getting to be pretty good and we've got all of our social media, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all the things. Can't forget Patreon. We would love your support. If you don't want to buy shirts or tote bags, but just want to get maybe some extra content that we are putting together. Patreon is the way to go.
[00:51:47] Katie Dooley: Love it! Blaze it!
[00:51:49] Preston Meyer: Thanks for joining us
[00:51:51] Both Speakers: Peace be with you!
