Freemasonry, the oldest fraternal organization in the world, has some deeply rooted religious traits, and an odd don't-ask-don't-tell relationship with the Church of Rome. The national mythology of the whole democratic world celebrates men who have been initiated into its sacred rites, and countless exposés have been published, yet there's still an awful lot of secrecy and misinformation.
Is Freemasonry a cult? Does it even qualify as a religion?
The Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Alberta will help shed some light on the subject.
Freemasonry is democratic all the way to the core, and only half of the legitimate Grand Lodges claim jurisdiction over entire countries; the other half stick to provincial and "state" boundaries. A friendly relationship exists between the vast majority of these Grand Lodges (as long as they have legitimate claim to authority in that region), but there is no global Masonic authority.
Despite many centuries of rich Masonic history, the United Grand Lodge of England was established in 1813, and the earlier Grand Lodge from which it claims authority doesn't have much evidence of being founded in 1717....
All this and more....
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[00:00:13] Katie Dooley: Hi Preston! Are we starting this episode?
[00:00:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah. We'll start.
[00:00:16] Katie Dooley: Okay. Hi, Preston.
[00:00:18] Preston Meyer: Hi, Katie.
[00:00:19] Katie Dooley: Today. I mean, you're a subject matter. You're always a subject matter expert.
[00:00:23] Preston Meyer: I mean, we've talked a lot about a lot of things over the last couple of years that have been stuff that I know a lot from research rather than experience. Today is a lot more experienced stuff, a lot closer to home.
[00:00:38] Katie Dooley: I like it. What are we talking about today on.
[00:00:40] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon Podcast?
[00:00:44] Preston Meyer: Today we're talking about Freemasonry.
[00:00:46] Katie Dooley: But that's not a religion.
[00:00:48] Preston Meyer: Well, that depends on who you ask.
[00:00:50] Katie Dooley: That depends how you define religion.
[00:00:52] Preston Meyer: Yes
[00:00:52] Katie Dooley: Please see episode two.
[00:00:56] Preston Meyer: Ah, yeah. For a lot of people who don't know much on the subject, mostly, that's a fair label for those people. Freemasonry is not only a religion, but a dangerous cult.
[00:01:10] Katie Dooley: I was going to say it's a cult. It's a link to the Illuminati and the lizard people.
[00:01:15] Preston Meyer: I mean, half right. It is linked to the Illuminati, not to the lizard people.
[00:01:19] Katie Dooley: Is it because lizard people don't exist?
[00:01:21] Preston Meyer: Correct.
[00:01:22] Katie Dooley: Okay. I... Freemasonry is funny because anytime I've visited a lodge on. I mean, usually it's like an open house sort of thing. They're always very open about who they are, what they do.
[00:01:37] Preston Meyer: Right? The buildings are marked. It's not like we're some secret underground organization. The Square and Compass, the well-known icon for the organization, is on the outside of every building we own.
[00:01:50] Katie Dooley: Mhm. Yeah. If you go in at the right time, they'll tell them all about you.
[00:01:55] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:01:55] Katie Dooley: And they know how to party.
[00:01:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:01:59] Katie Dooley: Highly recommend.
[00:02:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah, especially for the annual communication every Grand Lodge has, where they have as many Masons as are willing to come to one central location within the jurisdiction. Chill out at a hotel, drink late into the night, whiskey connoisseurs everywhere, or Scotch or whatever. There's, you know, diverse people, diverse tastes, whatever.
[00:02:24] Katie Dooley: So if I want to learn more about whiskey, I gotta go to the Freemasons.
[00:02:28] Preston Meyer: I mean, it's not the only source, but guaranteed you'll find an expert, or at least somebody who thinks they are.
[00:02:36] Katie Dooley: Isn't that the truth? So Freemasonry is the oldest fraternal organization in the world. So we know what frats are. Fraternities?
[00:02:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah
[00:02:45] Katie Dooley: This isn't that far removed from that.
[00:02:47] Preston Meyer: No, not terribly far removed at all. In fact, a lot of the college frats, the Greek groups that you see all over the place, a lot of them were started by Freemasons.
[00:02:58] Katie Dooley: Interesting. I like that.
[00:03:01] Preston Meyer: Just a little no value detail there.
[00:03:05] Katie Dooley: I found it valuable Preston.
[00:03:07] Preston Meyer: All right.
[00:03:08] Katie Dooley: This is from... Taken right from the Freemason website. So again,
[00:03:12] Preston Meyer: Which Freemason website?
[00:03:14] Katie Dooley: I don't remember Freemasonry.com like there. Okay. It was like there.
[00:03:18] Preston Meyer: Most jurisdictions have their own.
[00:03:20] Katie Dooley: This is definitely like no this is definitely an umbrella.
[00:03:23] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:03:23] Katie Dooley: But freemasonry.org. I don't know, just the Freemasonry website.
[00:03:29] Preston Meyer: Okay. There's there's some nuance that makes that a flawed statement, but that's okay.
[00:03:37] Katie Dooley: Do I need to look it up right now for you?
[00:03:39] Preston Meyer: No, no. Let's go forward. All right. What's it say?
[00:03:41] Katie Dooley: Freemasonry or masonry, is the oldest fraternal organization in the world. Though its origins can be traced to the stonemasons and cathedral builders of medieval times. Freemasonry remains a vital force in the daily lives of millions of men across the globe. Through a series of degrees and ceremonies, the values of Freemasonry are passed from generation to generation, Mason to Mason, in a timeless and tireless effort to make good men better. These degrees provide a framework that affects every aspect of modern life and are based on the values of brotherly love, relief, and truth.
[00:04:13] Preston Meyer: Pretty solid. You're not going to find any Masonic jurisdiction that disagrees with that. That's a decent elevator pitch, and I've been involved with Freemasonry for about a decade now, and I've never actually put together my own good or even half-decent elevator pitch for Freemasonry, so...
[00:04:34] Katie Dooley: Now you don't have to.
[00:04:35] Preston Meyer: Sure, I could just quote somebody else.
[00:04:37] Katie Dooley: I like it.
[00:04:38] Preston Meyer: Sure. So we have talked a little bit about mystery schools over the last couple of years. It's come up as we talked a lot about some of the the older religions in Greece and Rome and Egypt, and Freemasonry is the source of my own real first-hand knowledge on the subject of mystery schools. Freemasonry is modelled after specifically the mysteries of Greece and Egypt mostly, but obviously Rome is kind of figures it's way in there pretty nicely too. And so the rituals hit many of the plot points that one might expect to see in the ancient cult narratives.
[00:05:15] Katie Dooley: Again, not danger cult, just cult.
[00:05:18] Preston Meyer: Yeah, like the old religions centred around a figure or a god, whatever. That very old definition of cult. Not the weird, spooky definition we throw on it now.
[00:05:29] Katie Dooley: We call danger cults on this podcast for that specific reason.
[00:05:33] Preston Meyer: Differentiation. Very important.
[00:05:35] Katie Dooley: Yep.
[00:05:36] Preston Meyer: We talk about the Hero's journey a little bit, made most famous primarily in popular culture through the work of George Lucas and Joseph Campbell. And so there's a lot of little points that you see along this path of the hero's journey, that figure into Masonic ritual pretty typically. In fact, I did a presentation for Masonic group about a year ago on that subject. It was actually kind of cool. I might adjust it a little bit and share it. We'll see.
[00:06:08] Katie Dooley: Oh, that's sounds like a good bonus episode!
[00:06:10] Preston Meyer: Right? Masonic ritual has the initiate emulate a laborer instead of emulating gods or warriors. So it's a lot different from what you might expect.
[00:06:20] Katie Dooley: Humbling.
[00:06:22] Preston Meyer: Yeah, this also reveals the origins of the order in the old stonemason guilds. The story is that when you would send your kid off to go to work at seven years old because you can't afford to feed them anymore, their grown up, seven years old, go to work.
[00:06:36] Katie Dooley: Labour, right?
[00:06:37] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:06:37] Katie Dooley: Mhm.
[00:06:38] Preston Meyer: And so these people who are out actually working now have to raise other people's kids because they're 7 or 8 years old. There's a real value in finding a good way to teach them. That's really going to stick with them. And so as they're learning the trade, they're also learning these little tricks and stories and all kinds of fun stuff. And this is, as far as we can tell, ultimately, where Freemasonry is actually born.
[00:07:07] Katie Dooley: Interesting. What I also think is interesting is to become a mason you have to believe in a higher power, but they don't care what that higher power is.
[00:07:17] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:07:17] Katie Dooley: And then that's also interesting to me because there's no checks or balances on that.
[00:07:22] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:07:22] Katie Dooley: See our episode on belief, right? I can say I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and they don't know if I come by that genuinely or ironically, or I don't even think they check what you believe in.
[00:07:33] Preston Meyer: You are asked, generally speaking, some jurisdictions more than others, but it's a question. At least...
[00:07:40] Katie Dooley: You still wouldn't know if someone came by again. Do you truly believe in jediism? Or are you just a big Star Wars nerd and wanted to put that on the census or in your Mason application in this case.
[00:07:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's it's a little interesting, I guess, that there's always in every part of Freemasonry is every time you're moving up a level or a degree, there's an obligation that you swear to God, whoever that God is. And if you don't believe in a God, then swearing to God is meaningless. Whether or not you have any value in what is being sworn. Swearing to God just doesn't make sense if you don't think he's there. That's that's the real trick there, and why it's so important that that still remains a part of the issue, though, um, in France, there's an awful lot of Masons had have set up their own organization that don't believe in God.
[00:08:37] Katie Dooley: Well, I was going to say we swear on not God for other things. Right? And in court houses. And I mean, we haven't ever had a nonreligious president, but I'm sure they have. You know, you can swear on whatever holy book you want.
[00:08:51] Preston Meyer: There's been loads of non-religious presidents that they varied greatly.
[00:08:56] Katie Dooley: Um, none that would present us an atheist.
[00:08:59] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:08:59] Katie Dooley: But yeah, because you could, when you're being sworn in, swear on whatever holy book you want. I'm sure they have plans for what they do eventually get someone who is openly an atheist in office. So that's just it's interesting to me because, like, we swear on not God.
[00:09:12] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Well, in the courthouse today, you can either swear on a book or you can just make an affirmation. Yes, I'm going to tell the truth. And if you don't believe in God, you can't make somebody swear to God because thankfully, we have that freedom.
[00:09:28] Katie Dooley: Because actually, that's lying.
[00:09:29] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:09:30] Katie Dooley: So if they're swearing to God and they're an atheist then they're already lying on the stand.
[00:09:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah. If literally the first word.
[00:09:36] Katie Dooley: Perjury!
[00:09:39] Preston Meyer: Yeah, problems.
[00:09:41] Katie Dooley: And then so it's also interesting to me that like, again, you don't have to. I guess for that, I'm sure, like you said, that they ask you. But I'm sure in the general group it's nobody's business what you believe in.
[00:09:54] Preston Meyer: Pretty much.
[00:09:55] Katie Dooley: But a lot of the, I guess, references, or the ones I put on the notes allude to Abrahamic religion, like Job's Daughters, uh, the Red Cross of Constantine. Is that just because it started in England or?
[00:10:09] Preston Meyer: The bulk of the...
[00:10:10] Katie Dooley: I mean, when I went it was all white men, so I'm not surprised but...
[00:10:15] Preston Meyer: Uh, there's an awful lot of diversity in Freemasonry. And for the most part, it's it's pretty close to the demographic split of any given community.
[00:10:26] Katie Dooley: Whereever you are? Yeah.
[00:10:27] Preston Meyer: Skewing a little bit towards white just because that's the the group that's been there that has that tradition for a while but...
[00:10:35] Katie Dooley: I was trying to find statistics on like if there were statistics on race or religion within Freemasonry, I couldn't find anything. I don't know if that's more internal or if they even keep. I mean...
[00:10:46] Preston Meyer: We don't keep records like we every lodge.
[00:10:50] Katie Dooley: The information is there. It's just probably not ever like Censused.
[00:10:54] Preston Meyer: Right, every lodge in Alberta where I am a member of the Grand Lodge of Alberta, every lodge has paperwork where when a member petitions to join the lodge, they're asked what religious community do you belong to? And nobody collates this into a set of statistics or anything but the question is asked. It's there. The data is available.
[00:11:20] Katie Dooley: I think it'd be really interesting to do.
[00:11:22] Preston Meyer: Yeah, the question of race is not on the application and there's no census done for that. So it's actually also kind of tricky. You just kind of notice when you look around.
[00:11:32] Katie Dooley: To be fair I did go and Robbie Burns night, which doesn't get much whiter.
[00:11:35] Preston Meyer: It's a pretty solid Scottish tradition. It's yeah pretty white.
[00:11:41] Katie Dooley: Pretty white.
[00:11:41] Preston Meyer: Not exclusively white, but pretty white. And that's people are adopting the tradition as seeing it as a more Masonic thing. So it's slowly becoming more multicultural, but not rapidly. Oh, well, it's a lot of fun anyway. A lot of scotch, a lot of haggis. And if it's spiced properly, haggis is good.
[00:12:05] Katie Dooley: Haggis is not bad.
[00:12:06] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:12:06] Katie Dooley: Just don't think about it.
[00:12:09] Preston Meyer: And don't eat it cold. Yeah, but it is pretty tightly tied to the Christian tradition of its founders that the whole narrative within Masonic ritual is built around the construction of Solomon's Temple. So it's not exclusively Christian, but it is very obviously of the Abrahamic umbrella.
[00:12:35] Katie Dooley: Yeah. I would just be curious on stats specifically on what we call eastern traditions. You know how many Hindus or Sikhs, Buddhists you have in masonry? Because yeah, I'm sure Christians, Jews, even Muslims would be the majority. So just be curious. You know, I want to say fringe. That's not that's not right. But fringe in masonry kind of what the minor. I hope I'm making sense in that and not.
[00:13:01] Preston Meyer: Minority groups.
[00:13:02] Katie Dooley: Being offensive. Um. Right. That might not typically be seen at your average Canadian lodge. What kind of stats are there? Anyway, I hope that made sense, everyone.
[00:13:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's I know Sikh masons, Muslim masons, Jewish masons, Christian masons. There's a relatively small number of Mormon masons just because the Grand Lodge of Utah, where the bulk of Mormons were for such a long time, was very adamant that no Mormon could be made a mason in their jurisdiction.
[00:13:36] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:13:37] Preston Meyer: And that ended about the eight I want to say 83 or 84. So only about 40 years ago. And even though the rule is gone...
[00:13:48] Katie Dooley: Recovery and...
[00:13:49] Preston Meyer: The recovery from that tradition has been slow, which is kind of weird, because back in the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
[00:13:58] Katie Dooley: He was heavily inspired by...
[00:14:00] Preston Meyer: Well, it was it was weird to be a man in the church and not a mason.
[00:14:04] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:14:05] Preston Meyer: It was expected people like Kimball would say that if if you're going to join the church, maybe consider joining a lodge first.
[00:14:13] Katie Dooley: So can you i know it's not in your notes, but can you speak to why the Mormon church said no masonry, or are we going to know later?
[00:14:20] Preston Meyer: It was it was the Grand Lodge of Utah, the Grand Lodge of Utah.
[00:14:23] Katie Dooley: Said no Mormons.
[00:14:24] Preston Meyer: Said no Mormons.
[00:14:25] Katie Dooley: Oh, interesting.
[00:14:26] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Katie Dooley: Speak to that then or we'll get to that later?
[00:14:28] Preston Meyer: No, I can get to that now. Yeah.
[00:14:30] Katie Dooley: We have that spot later.
[00:14:31] Preston Meyer: There was this fear that what was going on inside the temples of the Latter Day Saints was clandestine masonry. And so they're like, well, if you guys are doing your own clandestine thing in in the temple, we don't want you because you're already breaking our rules, because you're sharing masonry with women and all kinds of other things, because they knew that women were in the temple.
[00:14:54] Katie Dooley: Women are...
[00:14:55] Preston Meyer: And all kinds of weird ideas. And then the God Makers book and film were published in the early 80s, and it was this huge exposé on what goes on inside Latter-Day Saint temples. And there's there's a little bit of exaggeration, a little bit of tone that misrepresents things. But most of the facts are pretty much right. And so when right after this was published, it took about a year for the Grand Lodge of Utah to say, well, now that we know what's going on in there, that's not clandestine Freemasonry. So our rule has no basis and is obviously discriminatory. So we're going to cut it. And so they've had Latter-Day Saint grandmasters in Utah or. Well I think it was one I don't think it's been more than one. My data might be out of date too. But there's there's a growing, slowly growing population of Latter-Day Saint Freemasons.
[00:15:55] Katie Dooley: Interesting. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for that aside.
[00:15:58] Preston Meyer: So it's I'm going to say, not generally speaking, incompatible with anybody's specific religion. As long as your religion believes that there is a creator that cares about us, that...
[00:16:15] Katie Dooley: So no deists.
[00:16:16] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Pretty much.
[00:16:17] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:16:18] Preston Meyer: That God does reveal things to us and that the human soul is immortal, which is where it gets a little bit tricky to be a Jehovah's Witness and a Freemason, because the permanent nature of the soul is a tricky discussion for Jehovah's Witnesses. But the other side of that is the average Jehovah's Witness will be shunned for joining a masonic lodge.
[00:16:42] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:16:43] Preston Meyer: So it's not a conflict that comes up very often.
[00:16:46] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So it's not really a problem?
[00:16:48] Preston Meyer: Right. I've never heard of a Satanist Freemason. Generally, if you are a theological Satanist, the idea of you joining a group that praises the creator wouldn't sit, right. It wouldn't make any sense. And of course, the other Satanists, the atheists Satanists have no value for the system either.
[00:17:11] Katie Dooley: Because, yeah, it's a satire at best. Yeah.
[00:17:15] Preston Meyer: Right. But it is. It is pretty religious organization. Generally speaking. It certainly wouldn't exist without religion. Everyone that built the organization, it was raised in the Western European Christian context. And I mean, if you know anything about Freemasonry, you know it's about Solomon's Temple. It's super obvious there's an influence there. Some people are really opposed, like just really hate Freemasonry. There's a very large number of people who are actively campaigning against Freemasonry out in the public sphere and do it in the name of their religion, which is really weird.
[00:17:59] Katie Dooley: I mean, is it though? So many religions don't like other religions, and if this is religion adjacent, then...
[00:18:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I don't know. Having lived it, Freemasonry is definitely more of an ally to religion rather than a religion in its own right. Depending on how you define it, define how you define religion,
[00:18:20] Katie Dooley: Right, because, I mean, we know anything can be religious, right?
[00:18:25] Preston Meyer: And we'll have to deal with that nebulous nature of it all for years to come.
[00:18:31] Katie Dooley: Correct.
[00:18:32] Preston Meyer: But Freemasonry is super old. Steer back into our history of it. We know for sure that King James was made a Freemason just a few years after he published his daemonologie, and a full decade before he authorized the publication of the The King James Bible in 1611.
[00:18:54] Katie Dooley: Nice.
[00:18:54] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:18:55] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:18:56] Preston Meyer: But there's little shreds of evidence that say it was old even when he joined. There is a manuscript called the Hallowell Manuscript. It contains the Regius Poem that was probably written reasonably close to 1400 CE. So a full couple hundred years before King James. And it's a really long poem. It goes through this whole legend of how Freemasonry came to be where it is at the time this poem was written.
[00:19:27] Katie Dooley: Oh, wow.
[00:19:28] Preston Meyer: And it's super hard to verify any of the details in it, but it claims that Freemasonry was brought to England during the reign of King Athelstan, who reigned in England from 924 to 939.
[00:19:43] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:19:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So we're talking more than a thousand years of Masonic history in England. Problem is, there's no scholar that really puts any stock into this, that this legend is probably most probably fiction.
[00:19:58] Katie Dooley: Okay to give it more weight.
[00:20:00] Preston Meyer: Right, but we are still looking back all the way to 1400 C.E., as this does exist here at this time. But adding an extra 400 years pretty dubious. There's also some dubious, dubious evidence that the first Grand Lodge was actually formed in Cologne, Germany, in 1250. So older than the Regius poem.
[00:20:26] Katie Dooley: Not 900.
[00:20:27] Preston Meyer: But not 900 CE um, it says that Rudolph, the first of Habsburg, who was king of Germany from 1273 to 1291, had joined the lodge of Saint Stephen while he was king. So it's kind of cool. Um, there's there's not a lot I haven't found, actually, any evidence backing up the claims of the scholar who brought this to my attention. His name is Henning Kloefkorn, but it's a cool. It's an idea that does make some sense with some of the vocabulary that we use in Freemasonry, but I haven't been able to find anything that really backs him up either. So our our most solid evidence of ancient existence of this organization only goes back to about 1400 CE.
[00:21:21] Katie Dooley: How much is Freemasonry changed in the last 600 Hundred years. Um, you know, just thinking how religions have changed in 600 years. I can't imagine it's all the same. But I also know it's rooted deeply in tradition.
[00:21:37] Preston Meyer: Right, so in about 1600, it was mostly still actual stone workers. There were people joining Freemasonry who weren't stone workers, but they were not in the majority, not even close. And then slowly, over the course of a couple of hundred years, by the time we get to about 1720, it's almost only the the enlightened folk and...
[00:22:08] No longer a guild for Masons.
[00:22:10] Preston Meyer: Right, and so that was a fairly slow transition. Presumably people were joining because they were curious about the mysteries that were held by these groups. And this just kind of kept growing and growing to the point where these thinkers outnumbered the workers. But the ritual always worried about the laborer. And even though we've abandoned the operative nature of Freemasonry, it's still very focused on be a good worker and perfect the spiritual temple within yourself and outside of yourself. It's a lot to it.
[00:22:51] Katie Dooley: Thanks. No, I appreciate that.
[00:22:53] Preston Meyer: Um, and also, there's an awful lot of people like to hype up. Oh, he's a 33rd degree Mason. He's so special. I mean, the the degree that is numbered 33 isn't just handed out willy nilly, but there are literally hundreds of Masonic degrees, and I already have more than 40.
[00:22:53] Preston Meyer: Wow. We got a 40 something of Mason in the house!
[00:23:17] But it's it's not that sort of impressive thing that a lot of people chalk it up to be.
[00:23:23] So, I don't know why. This reminds me. I don't know why I'm telling on the podcast, but I had a friend doing some genealogy research and she posted on Facebook that her 10th cousin was one of the women burned in the Salem witch trials. And I was like, like, that's not not interesting. But my husband is my 10th cousin. Like, 10th cousin is a distant, far away like, again, it's not that it's not cool, but like, Obama's my 10th cousin and my husband is my 10th cousin. It's really far away.
[00:23:54] It really is. So it's like nice, but not as impressive as you make it sound, right? Well, I should have. I posted on her, I commented it was on Facebook. I posted that Obama was my 10th cousin, but I really should have posted that my husband was my 10th cousin to be like, it's actually not, because that shocks people into realizing how not close at all it is.
[00:24:15] Preston Meyer: Right? So Freemasonry.
[00:24:17] Katie Dooley: Ding ding ding.
[00:24:18] Preston Meyer: There was a couple of degrees there. You've got the the degree of the apprentice. You've got this kid who just comes in to join your guild. He's got a make some obligations, learn a little bit of secrets for the work that he's going to do and spiritual implications that he'll be reminded of as he does that work. And then at some point, he becomes a fellow of the craft. He's able to travel around and and really work freely. And that's really where it stopped. And then there was another secret for somebody who could tell the fellows what to do.
[00:24:55] Preston Meyer: Superintendent.
[00:24:57] Preston Meyer: Pretty much. Yeah. And at the time that King James was made a Freemason, it was pretty much just the first two degrees and then the boss. And then after that time, at some point, presumably like the middle ish of the 1700s, they created the degree of the master mason that some say was the degree that was given to the overseers or or something else entirely. There's a bit there's still scholarly argument about all that history. But King James was never a master mason. He was a fellow craft. That's where he stopped as a dude who was super into all the things he was into. It would seem weird for him to stop there when there was more to experience. But by the time we get to the end of the 1700s, people have written all kinds of new degrees. There's all kinds of ways to make money. You got all these people who are just there for the enlightenment of Freemasonry. And so if you say, hey, I've got more light. Come and join my group, pay me 20 bucks and you're good to go. That's a great business. And it happened all over the place and people made a lot of money.
[00:26:16] Katie Dooley: When did it get regulated?
[00:26:17] Preston Meyer: It's a tricky thing. There's there's a lot of groups that have official sanctions from the actual Grand Lodge that runs just the first three degrees in most jurisdictions. There's some variation there, too, but there's a lot of groups that exist and just, oh, we're invitational. And if you're not super friendly to our being a group, we just won't advertise our existence. So it's it's tricky. And regulation is definitely a jurisdiction by jurisdiction thing.
[00:26:54] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:26:55] Preston Meyer: Some places are loosey goosey. Some places are super strict and say, you know, if you join this group, we're going to kick you out.
[00:27:02] Katie Dooley: Wow
[00:27:03] Preston Meyer: That's a thing. And other people are like, you're going to do what you're going to do. That's fine.
[00:27:09] Katie Dooley: So is Freemasonry a religion?
[00:27:12] Preston Meyer: Oh, that's that's tricky. There's there's a lot of people who use it as their religion, as a replacement for attending any congregational worship. And that's that's fine.
[00:27:26] Katie Dooley: The Freemasonry website...
[00:27:29] Preston Meyer: Whichever jurisdiction runs it.
[00:27:32] Katie Dooley: I... Now I need to find it like it's the main one.
[00:27:36] Preston Meyer: Um, there is no global Masonic authority. That's the trick.
[00:27:41] Katie Dooley: I'm Googling it!
[00:27:42] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:27:43] Katie Dooley: beafreemason.org.
[00:27:46] Preston Meyer: Okay. Which will be run by some sort of authority. So they're trying to be.
[00:27:53] Katie Dooley: beafreemason.org people. It's in the record now. Uh, Preston cannot find who it's run by, so I feel vindicated.
[00:28:01] Preston Meyer: There's no global Masonic authority. So I don't know whose authority they're operating under. But a lot of people like to look to the United Grand Lodge of England as the Mother Grand Lodge of all Freemasons in the world. That's very offensive to the older Grand Lodges of Scotland and Ireland.
[00:28:25] Katie Dooley: Anyway, so from this beafreemason.org website in their FAQs. Is Freemasonry a religion is one of the questions, so I've copy and pasted their answer. Freemasonry is not a religion or a substitute for religion. Freemasonry does not intrude on the religious beliefs of its members, although it does require that all members profess a belief in a supreme Being. All caps. Men of all faiths are represented in Freemasonry. Religion is not discussed at lodge meetings.
[00:28:55] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's actually written into all of our laws that anything that is likely to cause a serious disagreement between brothers is a forbidden topic of discussion. And that is, and specifically listed is religion and politics because partisan politics ruin everything.
[00:29:18] Katie Dooley: Yes, but you know, it doesn't ruin everything. The Holy Watermelon podcast.
[00:29:23] Preston Meyer: Right? So I mentioned the United Grand Lodge of England before, as not the Mother Grand Lodge of all Freemasons in the world, but generally well respected. And they take a more public voice whenever the opportunity comes up, especially the last few years. So in 1985, the United Grand Lodge of England published a statement that has been parodied by almost every Masonic jurisdiction authority.
[00:29:51] Katie Dooley: And you're not even going to read the first paragraph, because I just did.
[00:29:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah. But I like the way it goes on. It says the names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer to God as they see him, without the terms of the prayer causing dissension among them. There is no Masonic God. A Freemason remains committed to the God of the religion he professes. Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but he remains supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God. An open volume of the Sacred Law is an essential part of every Masonic meeting. The volume of the Sacred Law to a Christian is the Bible to Freemasons of other faiths, it is the book held holy by them. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his duty to God, by whatever name he is known, above all other duties. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions. And I've yet to find a religion that finds fault with their moral teachings. But I mean, you might find one.
[00:31:11] Katie Dooley: There's a lot of religions.
[00:31:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So it's it's a pretty solid statement. It says we're not a religion. The Grand Lodge of Alberta goes on to inform petitioning candidates that it acknowledges a one and caring deity. Neither secular nor theological. Reverence for a supreme being is ever present in its ceremonials. The volume of the Sacred Law, appropriate to its members is open upon its altar whenever a lodge is in session.
[00:31:41] Katie Dooley: But that is heavily monotheistic.
[00:31:44] Preston Meyer: It definitely looks monotheistic, but it's not terribly unfavorable for groups that are polytheistic. As long as there is a recognition of a supreme or a creator among them.
[00:32:00] Katie Dooley: Like Brahma.
[00:32:01] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:32:02] Katie Dooley: In the case of Hindus.
[00:32:03] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And so you'll see. Hindu Freemasons.
[00:32:06] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:32:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:32:08] Katie Dooley: I buy that.
[00:32:09] Preston Meyer: Okay. Wolf Wolfensberger.
[00:32:12] Katie Dooley: Our favorite.
[00:32:13] Preston Meyer: We talked about him a little while ago. He's got a great quote that I think if you accept his framework, makes Freemasonry for sure a religion.
[00:32:25] Katie Dooley: Mhm. Okay.
[00:32:27] Preston Meyer: He says religion is any supra empirical or extra empirical belief or belief system or worldview. Accordingly, capitalism, communism, fascism, democracy with the hope that science or technology will save the world. And thousands of other beliefs are religions, including belief systems that have been formally defined as religions. In fact, epistemologists have made the convincing point that even atheism or deism, because it is too based on an assertion that can never be empirically disproven by appeal to the laws of nature. Insofar as every person capable of some thought holds to beliefs that are not empirically falsifiable. Each person has a religion. In fact, many people incoherently have several religions which, rather embarrassingly, are usually mutually exclusive.
[00:33:19] Katie Dooley: I like that.
[00:33:20] Preston Meyer: Yes, I like his perspective. I also love the name Wolf Wolfensberger, but he's a pretty great scholar.
[00:33:28] Katie Dooley: Nice.
[00:33:29] Preston Meyer: But not super well known. But I like his work.
[00:33:32] Katie Dooley: Who's John Sebastian Marlowe Ward before I read his quote.
[00:33:36] Preston Meyer: He's the author of a lot of books that you'll find in most Masonic libraries. He's just one of the the big Masonic thinkers. Back when, writing Freemasonry was very lucrative.
[00:33:50] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:33:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:33:51] Katie Dooley: So John Sebastian Marlowe Ward defines religion as a system of teaching moral truths, moral truths associated with a belief in God. And then he declares, I consider Freemasonry a sufficiently organized school of mysticism to be entitled to be called a religion. He goes on to say, I boldly averred that Freemasonry is a religion, yet in no way conflicts with any other religion, unless that religion holds that no one outside its portals can be saved. And that's from Freemasonry, its aims and ideas, your aims and ideals. Which is interesting to me because Christians think that.
[00:34:27] Preston Meyer: Yes, generally.
[00:34:29] Katie Dooley: And it's a Christian, predominantly Christian club.
[00:34:34] Preston Meyer: Yep.
[00:34:35] Katie Dooley: So I'm confused. You are too.
[00:34:39] Preston Meyer: It's a really interesting turn of phrase he uses. That there's an awful lot of Christians who insist that unless you join my church, you'll never be saved. And that sounds like a really negative way to run through the world and you probably wouldn't enjoy sharing a lodge with people who don't share your faith. But for an awful lot of Christians, there's a whole lot of mystery of can't say for sure who's going to be saved. So that fits nicely into his...
[00:35:12] Katie Dooley: Brotherly love everyone. So even if we're wrong, someone will vouch for us.
[00:35:17] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:35:17] Katie Dooley: I like that. Yeah.
[00:35:21] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So that. And he's an insider. He was a mason.
[00:35:26] Katie Dooley: Mhm. That's why I think it's so interesting.
[00:35:28] Preston Meyer: Yeah. But there's an awful lot of variety in the thought of Masonic writers. You get people like Albert Pike who as far as I can tell is just a garbage human being, but wrote an awful lot, is responsible for changing a huge chunk of what we call Scottish Rite Freemasonry, and is weirdly respected in a lot of circles, and wrote this huge book that some people like to think of as the Masonic Bible called Morals and Dogma. And it's I've had all kinds of people ask me about it. I'm like, haven't read it yet. And weird that you're reading it. I don't know why.
[00:36:08] Katie Dooley: I think it's part of your job now, Preston, to read it.
[00:36:10] Preston Meyer: I think so I've been meaning to get around to it for a while, but not liking its writer has really.
[00:36:17] Katie Dooley: Hindered that process.
[00:36:18] Preston Meyer: Slowed me down on that.
[00:36:19] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:36:21] Preston Meyer: But really, one can hardly deny the religious character of a Freemasons lodge ritual is focused tightly on events drawn straight out of religious traditions, especially the construction of King Solomon's Temple. We use the Bible in ritual. I don't know if religion is a unifying system of belief in a supernatural power, that's Freemasonry. But if you have a tighter definition on it, then maybe it doesn't fit in. But a lot of the times, the way we define religion omits Buddhism and Confucianism and sometimes even Shinto. It's... You need to draw your lines properly, and that gets really tricky.
[00:37:06] Katie Dooley: Yeah, several religious or Christian denominations do not let their congregants join Freemasonry.
[00:37:14] Preston Meyer: What?
[00:37:15] Katie Dooley: Most notably Catholics.
[00:37:18] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The popes over the centuries have issued several bulls saying no Freemasons shall be admitted to receive the communion.
[00:37:29] Katie Dooley: But I feel like you told me you had a Catholic...
[00:37:32] Preston Meyer: I know several Catholic Freemasons.
[00:37:36] Katie Dooley: So they're breaking the law! Breaking the law!
[00:37:40] Preston Meyer: It's weird that the Pope has this rule. And yet most people underneath that office just operate on a don't ask, don't tell kind of situation. Yeah, it's a little weird.
[00:37:54] Katie Dooley: Like abortion.
[00:37:56] Preston Meyer: I don't see a parallel there... I would say more like homosexuals serving in the military.
[00:38:01] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:38:02] Preston Meyer: Don't ask, don't tell.
[00:38:03] Katie Dooley: Catholic abortions where Catholic women statistically have more abortions.
[00:38:08] Preston Meyer: Fair enough. Okay. I see you.
[00:38:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah. That's where I was going.
[00:38:12] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:38:13] Katie Dooley: Thanks. Other ones include the Assemblies of God, Church of the Brethren, Church of the Nazarene, the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod, the Methodist Church of the UK. This ones... They condemn it, but they don't prohibit it. It's decriminalized, but not illegal.
[00:38:31] Preston Meyer: Right. It's not wildly different, but it's not the same.
[00:38:36] Katie Dooley: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in America, and the Society of Friends, also known as the Quakers. All say, no freemasonry!
[00:38:45] Preston Meyer: Yep. And thanks to the weird ban of the Grand Lodge of Utah, it's depending on who you talk to. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, you're going to get some weird looks if you admit to being a Freemason.
[00:39:00] Katie Dooley: Have you gotten weird looks?
[00:39:01] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah.
[00:39:02] Katie Dooley: Oh, I mean...
[00:39:03] Preston Meyer: Loads.
[00:39:03] Katie Dooley: I was going to say something rude. You get weird looks regardless!
[00:39:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:39:08] Katie Dooley: Preston Preston's my favorite. I found it interesting that there I found a list of the eight major concerns that the Southern Baptist Convention had expressed about the teachings and practices of masonry. So I thought this was a good, like, point counterpoint.
[00:39:24] Preston Meyer: Sure. Yeah. Give it to me.
[00:39:26] Katie Dooley: All right. Preston. Freemasonry uses offensive, non-biblical, and blasphemous terms relating to God.
[00:39:32] Preston Meyer: Well, as a person who believes in God and feels pretty good about his relationship with God, I don't remember ever hearing a blasphemous term relating to God or an offensive term relating to God and the non-biblical issue... If you're going to limit your language to what was written in the Bible when there's no such thing as the Bible. Let's start there. You've got a problem, because you gotta argue about a book. But if you're going to limit your vocabulary to one book and its contents, you're going to have a bad time.
[00:40:12] Katie Dooley: I was going to say, I feel like most evangelical churches today, don't use biblical terms relating to God. They're pretty. They're pretty modern, which is why they do so well.
[00:40:21] Preston Meyer: Sure. It's a weird complaint.
[00:40:25] Katie Dooley: It is a very.... Specific complaint.
[00:40:28] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And, well, it's not that specific. If it was going to be specific, tell me which one offends you.
[00:40:36] Katie Dooley: All right. Number two, Freemasonry insists on the use of bloody oaths or obligations which are strictly forbidden by the Bible. Matthew 5:34-37.
[00:40:46] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's a weird one.
[00:40:49] Katie Dooley: Tell me about the bloody oaths. I'm sure it's.
[00:40:51] Preston Meyer: Broadly speaking...
[00:40:53] Katie Dooley: Because you can't tell us!
[00:40:55] Preston Meyer: No, I can't tell you the details of the obligations. But there's broadly speaking.
[00:41:00] Katie Dooley: Do you slice your hand open?
[00:41:02] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:41:03] Katie Dooley: Blood brothers?
[00:41:03] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:41:04] Katie Dooley: Hold my hand!
[00:41:07] Preston Meyer: Uh. Broadly speaking, there are promises that you would rather die than share the secrets that are shared with you.
[00:41:16] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:41:17] Preston Meyer: And... Yeah, that's that's that's enough. And it is contrary to the idea that you should never make an oath or make any promise. But I don't see an issue there. But their point is, I'm going to say mostly valid.
[00:41:40] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:41:41] Preston Meyer: I accept it, but it's not a problem for me.
[00:41:46] Katie Dooley: There you go. Well, you're a bad Southern Baptist.
[00:41:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:41:51] Katie Dooley: Number three, Freemason urges the occultic and or pagan readings be used. Oh, sorry. Urges that occultic or and/or pagan readings be used, and that their teachings be appropriated in interpreting such concepts as the Trinity. I was just going to say, I feel like they used a whole bunch of vocabulary words they don't know.
[00:42:10] Preston Meyer: Yes.
[00:42:11] Both Speakers: Specifically Occultic and pagan.
[00:42:13] Preston Meyer: Yes. Okay. Without doubt or equivocation, yes. That is a correct estimation of their statement. And it's a little embarrassing that they put it into writing. I've known one Mason who was really... You really should learn more about alchemy. One. It doesn't. As far as.
[00:42:40] Katie Dooley: Did he have a forge in his garage? I hope so.
[00:42:43] Preston Meyer: I doubt it, but I don't. I don't know the answer to that. But the idea that Freemasonry urges occultic or pagan readings to be used. That's that's never come up.
[00:42:57] Katie Dooley: Has anyone ever brought a doTERRA catalog? doTERRA is essential oils.
[00:43:01] Preston Meyer: Oh, no.
[00:43:03] Katie Dooley: Because that would be...
[00:43:04] Preston Meyer: I've never seen a man push the sale of essential oils. Not to say that this doesn't happen. I'm confident it has to happen somewhere, but I've never seen it.
[00:43:14] Katie Dooley: Okay. Because that would fall under occultic.
[00:43:17] Preston Meyer: Uh technically. Yeah.
[00:43:22] Katie Dooley: All right. Number four, Freemasonry includes the Bible as part of the air quotes furniture of the lodge, but only as an equal with non-Christian symbols and writings.
[00:43:33] Preston Meyer: Sigh, what a weird thing to complain about.
[00:43:37] Katie Dooley: I mean... what do you think it is in a hotel room, sir?
[00:43:43] Preston Meyer: Well, so their complaint is the idea that we refer to the Bible as part of the furniture is your bedroom. Even a bedroom without a bed in it? Is your toilet even...
[00:43:56] Katie Dooley: I would say it depends if you're selling your house. Because anything with windows and a closet can count as a bedroom.
[00:44:06] Preston Meyer: So now you're talking about intent.
[00:44:08] Katie Dooley: With legal egress.
[00:44:13] Preston Meyer: So that's the thing that if you're going to be offended by the idea that a lodge is not what we say it is without a Bible present, that's messed up. The Bible is an essential part of the lodge setup. That's why it's called the furniture.
[00:44:34] Katie Dooley: It's a church without a Bible.
[00:44:35] Preston Meyer: Right? If you have a church without a Bible, what are you doing?
[00:44:39] Katie Dooley: It's just a conference room at that point.
[00:44:41] Preston Meyer: Exactly. Whereas it's in our law, we cannot hold a lodge meeting without the volume of the sacred law, which is a term used simply to be more inclusive. You can have a lodge meeting without a Bible, but you have to have something else to take its place in a room with just Muslims. There's no need for a Bible.
[00:45:04] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:45:04] Preston Meyer: You have the Quran instead. But I've never seen a masonic lodge room without the King James Bible specifically, which I mean, for me, it doesn't need to be King James Bible, but a lot of people get pretty uppy about it that if it's not King James, it's not even a real Bible.
[00:45:23] Katie Dooley: It's not even a real Bible.
[00:45:24] Preston Meyer: Which is also a weird thing to believe. But here we are.
[00:45:27] Katie Dooley: That's a different episode. We'll get to that eventually, yeah.
[00:45:30] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but also another part of their complaint is that it is. They say it's equal with non-Christian symbols and writings, and that's just not true. I... When I was invested as a chaplain. I was told it is the first great light in Freemasonry that nothing else compares to it. And then direct sequel, the next two are symbols that specifically illustrate the position of God as creator.
[00:46:03] Katie Dooley: I guess the only way I can see as equal with non-Christian symbols or writings is if you also had a Quran.
[00:46:09] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:46:10] Katie Dooley: Right? If you I'm sure there's a lodge out there that's like half, half or, you know, there's maybe.
[00:46:15] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:46:15] Katie Dooley: In that case, there...
[00:46:16] Preston Meyer: There are definitely lodges that are mostly Muslim for sure.
[00:46:20] Katie Dooley: So that's the only time I can be like, still not a valid complaint, but at least they're speaking the truth.
[00:46:27] Preston Meyer: Right. And we've talked about this before. If you can't prove with Beyond a shadow of a doubt your religious position, why should you lord it over somebody else?
[00:46:42] Katie Dooley: Burden of proof.
[00:46:44] Preston Meyer: So as far as making the Bible equal to the Quran, I mean, in my personal estimation that's not the reality, but in some lodges, sure, why not? I don't like this complaint that they have, but that's that's what they got.
[00:47:04] Katie Dooley: All right. I think this is number five. Freemasonry misuses the term light to refer to moral reformation as a means to salvation.
[00:47:13] Preston Meyer: I've never heard that said before outside of this context.
[00:47:17] Katie Dooley: Can we translate that? That feels like a lot of words in my brain where I'm like, I don't know what they're trying to say.
[00:47:23] Preston Meyer: So the accusation, because we're not even going to deal with what the reality is right now. The accusation is that Freemasonry uses the word light to refer to self-improvement as a path of salvation, which I've just I've never seen. Like, yes, we're meant to seek light, but light is almost always allegorical for information, understanding or divine providence that you are looking for blessings and knowledge and understanding. And I don't remember ever being told that this is the means of salvation, but I have to admit that the ritual of it varies from place to place. But I've I've never come up against that.
[00:48:12] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:48:14] Preston Meyer: And just taking what we have here, the idea that light being connected to moral reformation connects to salvation. Jesus said, repent or you cannot get into heaven. You must have reformation to make it. And if light is any connection to God's grace, that's super important to Christians too. So it's a weird complaint and I can't call it valid for many reasons.
[00:48:46] Katie Dooley: All right. Number six, Freemasonry teaches that salvation may be attained by good works and not through faith in Christ alone. I even have comments on this one, so.
[00:48:58] Preston Meyer: Go for it.
[00:48:59] Katie Dooley: Aren't there other Christian groups that think that too?
[00:49:02] Preston Meyer: Yes, but not not the Southern Baptist Convention.
[00:49:05] Katie Dooley: No fair but like and I guess they would say don't be part of those other Christian groups. But I mean, this is not just a Freemasonry thing.
[00:49:13] Preston Meyer: Right. But also in the Bible, it tells you faith alone is not enough. You have to do something with it.
[00:49:21] Katie Dooley: That's why God put atheists on the planet.
[00:49:24] Preston Meyer: Right? You act without faith, it can't be all that bad. Uh, anyway, I don't remember ever being told that my good works will be my salvation in lodge.
[00:49:37] Katie Dooley: As, I was going to say...
[00:49:38] Preston Meyer: Right. I don't I don't remember that being in Masonic ritual, and I've had to memorize an awful lot of ritual.
[00:49:45] Katie Dooley: He's done over 40 guys!
[00:49:48] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's...
[00:49:49] Katie Dooley: Maybe you're just not high enough yet.
[00:49:54] Preston Meyer: So to be the ultimate Masonic authority in a jurisdiction. Well, there is no ultimate Masonic authority. Every jurisdiction has its own grand master. And every grand Master is equal in authority for their jurisdiction. There's no one Grand Master lords over six of these or 100 of those. It's... The Grand Master is Grand Master of his jurisdiction. Alberta has one Grand master. Texas has one Grand Master.
[00:50:24] Katie Dooley: And they're all friends. They're all equal.
[00:50:26] Preston Meyer: They do actually get the opportunity to hang out there as a conference of grand masters of North America.
[00:50:30] Katie Dooley: Are you going to do that?
[00:50:31] Katie Dooley: Eventually.
[00:50:33] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:50:33] Preston Meyer: That's so far down the road for me. It costs a lot of money to do all of the things that go with that office, but.
[00:50:41] Katie Dooley: Sorry, we're on good works. And I distracted you.
[00:50:46] Preston Meyer: No, I lost the train. I don't know what I was saying.
[00:50:49] Katie Dooley: You've never been told that your good works in lodge...
[00:50:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I don't remember ever being told that that was going to be salvation in any Masonic ritual that I have ever gone through. And it's been a handful.
[00:51:01] Katie Dooley: Number seven. Freemasonry advocates in many of its writings the non-biblical teachings of universalism.
[00:51:13] Preston Meyer: Uh, I suppose.
[00:51:14] Katie Dooley: Again, do they even know what universalism is?
[00:51:16] Preston Meyer: I, I can't say for sure? But I've never heard universalism being preached in a masonic lodge. The the idea that all men are created equal. Very important to Freemasons. That varies from area to area too. For example, the Deep South has a real struggle with this idea, but in Canada we're very comfortable with it. But that doesn't mean that every religion is equal. It just means that we respect all brothers equally because we can't prove anything religion-wise.
[00:51:53] Katie Dooley: Is that something that's talked about? I guess you don't talk about religion.
[00:51:56] Preston Meyer: No, we just let it be.
[00:51:57] Katie Dooley: Is that a belief that most Masons share that kind of... I believe in it, but I respect that it can't be proven so... Because that's a pretty progressive.
[00:52:08] Preston Meyer: Most Masons are pretty respectful and grown up about it. There are some that aren't. And eventually it's just like, well, this isn't for you, so go enjoy your meat and potatoes somewhere else.
[00:52:23] Katie Dooley: Mmmmm Masonic meat.
[00:52:27] Preston Meyer: Eating is a big deal for Freemasons. If you're not eating together, it's you're missing a huge chunk of the fraternity.
[00:52:35] Katie Dooley: I'm literally going on the record. Preston, I always want to come to Robbie Burns night. In some of its lodges, freemasonry discriminates against non-whites, Preston.
[00:52:46] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I had alluded to this. It's weird that the Southern Convention complained about this.
[00:52:53] Katie Dooley: Shots fired.
[00:52:55] Preston Meyer: Um, yeah. It's true. There are Freemasons who have been super racist, including the well loved for no good reason, Albert Pike, who was a Confederate general fighting to keep slaves and all that terrible nonsense. It's a valid complaint because it is hypocrisy that some Freemasons do discriminate against non-whites. That sucks. But as a as a rule for all Freemasonry. No, that's not a thing.
[00:53:30] Katie Dooley: Just all Masons need to be better together.
[00:53:33] Preston Meyer: Yes.
[00:53:34] Katie Dooley: There is a solution for this one.
[00:53:36] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:53:37] Katie Dooley: And I mean, it's also a problem that the Southern Baptist Convention probably has and other groups. I'm not adding any one particular. It's just racism is a is a thing.
[00:53:48] Preston Meyer: Yes. Now, to be clear, Southern Baptist Convention, generally speaking, there's obviously exceptions and everything. Big fan of Donald J. Trump. And based on all these complaints, they clearly did not like George Washington very much.
[00:54:09] Katie Dooley: I love it.
[00:54:09] Preston Meyer: So here we go.
[00:54:12] Katie Dooley: Um, and I guess this is a bonus one because there's nine points. And I said there was eight. I don't know who researched this. It was me. Well, it is clear that some Christians, moral persons and outstanding government leaders have been and are members of the Free Masonic movement. Several points of the lodge's teachings are non-biblical and non-Christian.
[00:54:34] Preston Meyer: Oh no.
[00:54:36] Katie Dooley: This is. This is actually more of a summary. While Freemasonry encourages and supports charitable activities, it contains both multi-religious and exclusivistic teachings that are not Christian. They make that sound like it's a bad thing.
[00:54:49] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:54:50] Katie Dooley: Inclusive teachings are bad. That was I mean, I think that was a summary of the. So that's how I'm going to word it.
[00:54:58] Preston Meyer: So the idea of multi-religious communion is offensive to these people. I can't defend that position. If you're against social inclusion, fine. Don't join us. We're going to be better for it. And the idea that there's these that these teachings are not Christian, that's your personal flavor of Christianity. That's it.
[00:55:27] Katie Dooley: You know, flavor of Christianity that isn't? Jesus's.
[00:55:32] Preston Meyer: Right. No, Jesus would be kicked out of the vast majority of Christian churches. It's embarrassing.
[00:55:38] Katie Dooley: So we gotta have a conversation about this. Freemasons don't admit atheists, correct?
[00:55:46] Preston Meyer: Generally speaking, there are exceptions to that as well.
[00:55:50] Katie Dooley: Oh, I want to know how I can get in on this. I'm also a woman, so that's another point we're going to have to talk about. Um, so this was an interesting quote that I really didn't like. So this is why we're gonna have a conversation. The grand master of the Grand Lodge of New York. I don't know when this quote was, because I know the Grand Master is.
[00:56:07] Preston Meyer: Some past Grand master.
[00:56:08] Katie Dooley: Some past grand master. The reason we, I think, in the past, wanted somebody that had a belief in a supreme being is because we take certain obligations to be a good man, to support the fraternity. And if you don't have a belief in a supreme being, the obligation would mean nothing. Yes. So my marriage is void because I'm not religious and don't know how to make an obligation.
[00:56:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's not what he's saying. I don't love his wording. Here it is it does offer problematic wording.
[00:56:36] Katie Dooley: It basically says that because we have nothing holding us accountable, we have no reason to be accountable. That's how I read it. And I don't like it.
[00:56:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The obligations are sworn to the creator of the universe. And if you don't believe in him, you've already begun with a lie. That's the trick.
[00:57:02] Katie Dooley: Yeah, but okay. But that requires some inherent knowledge of what happens in Freemasonry, because he's, like you said, he's worded in a way that's like, oh, no one's holding you accountable. I guess you can't be accountable.
[00:57:17] Preston Meyer: Well, there's this inherent knowledge of Freemasonry. We've let people know more or less a little bit, what's going on inside before we ever initiate anybody. So it's not surprise you have to believe in God when you're half an hour into the ritual.
[00:57:33] Katie Dooley: What about the women thing?
[00:57:35] Preston Meyer: There are women Freemasons.
[00:57:37] Katie Dooley: Can I be one?
[00:57:39] Preston Meyer: You can't do it here because there are no lodges for women Freemasons here.
[00:57:46] Katie Dooley: And I'm an atheist.
[00:57:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:57:49] Katie Dooley: Wow. Two strikes against me.
[00:57:52] Preston Meyer: Yep.
[00:57:55] Katie Dooley: Old tradition.
[00:57:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's a very old tradition.
[00:57:59] Katie Dooley: I mean, I guess you can't, like, check, check, but, like what? What are they doing about non-binary or trans men? I guess trans, I mean, trans men, like, obviously you don't pull down someone's pants, but.
[00:58:12] Preston Meyer: Right. There's been a lot of Masonic jurisdictions that have come out and said, we don't care. Come and join. Lodges have said to the brothers who transitioned to female. We're not going to kick you out. So it's broadly speaking, a lot of jurisdictions are super inclusive, but not all of them. But the world changes slowly.
[00:58:39] Katie Dooley: Where you are in the world too, as opposed to the club you're a part of.
[00:58:42] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:58:43] Katie Dooley: Club is probably reducing it a bit, but.
[00:58:46] Preston Meyer: Kind of a lot.
[00:58:47] Katie Dooley: Kind of a lot. He says. It's club. No girls allowed on the front door.
[00:58:54] Preston Meyer: Sure. Why not?
[00:58:56] Katie Dooley: And it's in a tree house. That's why it's called a lodge.
[00:59:02] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:59:05] Katie Dooley: But is it a cult?
[00:59:07] Preston Meyer: Well, even if you accept the idea that Freemasonry is a religion, then we still have the problematic definition of cult.
[00:59:17] Katie Dooley: I mean, once we move past the problematic definition of religion.
[00:59:23] Preston Meyer: I mean, we've got a bunch of guys in a room together praying together to one specific, though not necessarily universally agreed upon God. Maybe that makes it a cult, but is it a danger cult? No. Remember, we've talked about before. Authoritarianism is the hallmark.
[00:59:46] Katie Dooley: The BITE Model of authoritarian control.
[00:59:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah and we just don't hit those points. It's a pretty free organization. You can stop showing up anytime you want, and people are going to reach out and say, hey, are you okay? Because generally you've joined a lodge and made friends or have joined people who are already your friends. So if you just drop off the face of the planet, people are going to go, what's up? But nobody is dragging you back to the lodge kicking and screaming, and nobody's...
[01:00:19] Katie Dooley: You can leave any time. We have a friend who's a former Mason. Amazing.
[01:00:21] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[01:00:22] Katie Dooley: Didn't keep it up, yeah.
[01:00:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And it's super democratic. Lodges elect their master. Every year, the Grand Lodge elects its master, grand master every year. It's... I mean, as far as we can tell, it's the home of modern democracy. Every nation that's had a major revolution there. I don't know of any that didn't have Freemasons involved in building their new government. Even in England, the parliament was figured out by Masons.
[01:01:01] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[01:01:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[01:01:02] Katie Dooley: I don't think they did a very good job. I'm not a fan of first past the post, but here we are.
[01:01:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it was what they thought of at the time. And for some reason we're like, it's the best there ever could be. Let's commit to it. We've come up with better ideas now and people are just not ready for it, apparently. The people in power know that it will lose them their power. That's the real trick.
[01:01:24] Katie Dooley: I don't want to digress too much, but I've any political discussion I try to start with, well, what is the purpose of government? And then what do you think of first past the post? Because this partisan fighting is really just a result of a) people not knowing what they want from their government and a shitty system.
[01:01:46] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[01:01:48] Katie Dooley: And most people have no idea what first past the post is.
[01:01:50] Preston Meyer: Correct.
[01:01:51] Katie Dooley: Because whenever I'm like whenever there's an election I'm like oh first past the post. And then people are like what's that. I'm like, that's really bad.
[01:01:58] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[01:01:58] Katie Dooley: Let me draw you diagrams on why it's so shitty.
[01:02:01] Preston Meyer: Right? Terrible terrible things.
[01:02:04] Katie Dooley: All right. So it's not really a cult. It's not really a religion but.
[01:02:10] Preston Meyer: Right. The closest we get to cult is that there is specific dress you are required to wear your apron. And thinking that associating that with cultiness is weird.
[01:02:21] Katie Dooley: I mean, when we think of cults, they totally do. So from the outside, I can see. But you know, my point in the notes is like I had to wear a specific uniform to dance class too.
[01:02:32] Preston Meyer: Right?
[01:02:33] Katie Dooley: You got to wear something to soccer. You got to wear something to work.
[01:02:36] Preston Meyer: Right? So, um, specific language is a lot different than language control. That's fine. We do have group rituals that could look culty, depending on the cult that you're expecting, I guess? There is a little bit of information control, but it's not like you don't get to know what we're up to. It's here's a secret that marks you as this class, which consists of basically words and handshakes. It's not like we're you have to wait until you get to be invited to this group before we can tell you how we rule the world, because it doesn't work that way.
[01:03:17] Katie Dooley: You know 44 different handshakes, then?
[01:03:19] Preston Meyer: No.
[01:03:21] Katie Dooley: Well that's disappointing. We should come up with our own Holy Watermelon handshake.
[01:03:28] Preston Meyer: God, that sounds like a lot of work.
[01:03:29] Katie Dooley: o. I'm ready. I'm on this.
[01:03:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Katie Dooley: I'll I'll workshop. Okay. Okay, so it's not really a religion. Not really a cult. But is it a secret society?
[01:03:43] Preston Meyer: Ah, there's this kind of annoying catchphrase that I hear more often than I would like. That's why it's annoying that we're not a secret society. But we're a society with secrets.
[01:03:56] Katie Dooley: That's really bad PR.
[01:03:58] Preston Meyer: Right?
[01:03:58] Katie Dooley: It's terrible. It's real bad PR. Don't don't say that.
[01:04:02] Preston Meyer: Right?!
[01:04:03] Katie Dooley: Don't say that.
[01:04:05] Preston Meyer: So I also belong to a whole bunch of Masonic message boards and Masonic subreddits and whatnot. And every now and then, somebody would be like, I'm here and I want to learn more. And then somebody pipes up to be one. Ask one. No, sir, you're an idiot. They've already asked. You're saying it helped nothing. But yeah, this this behavior and phenomenon, it runs deep. But like any really organized group, you don't get to just walk in off the street and get to know all of the things. So in the same way, Ikea is a secret society, sure, but no one calls Ikea a secret society for a good reason. And I don't think Freemasonry is a secret society. It's a mystery school, but it's not a secret society.
[01:05:02] Katie Dooley: Yeah, that's boring.
[01:05:06] Preston Meyer: Sure, for a lot of people it doesn't appeal and that's fine, I love it.
[01:05:11] Katie Dooley: I just want it to be a secret society.
[01:05:14] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[01:05:14] Katie Dooley: I want to be part of a secret society.
[01:05:17] Preston Meyer: Somebody might reach out to you one day. Maybe you'll start getting emails from some new group claiming to be the Illuminati.
[01:05:22] Katie Dooley: You should, uh, have an arm of the San Lanatus's fellowship. That's a secret society. We'll give it a whole new name and send out secret invitations.
[01:05:33] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[01:05:33] Katie Dooley: Our Top tier Patreon members.
[01:05:36] Preston Meyer: I like it.
[01:05:38] Katie Dooley: Okay, okay, okay, so it's not really a religion. It's not really a cult. It's definitely not a secret society. But is it occult?
[01:05:45] Preston Meyer: Is it occult?
[01:05:46] Katie Dooley: Occult. Occult. Not a cult.
[01:05:49] Preston Meyer: I mean, we've talked about is anything really occult before? And there are a handful of things that are traditionally stored under that label. Is it satanic? No. Pretty anti-satanic. Is it super witchy? Not really. It's compatible with Wiccans.
[01:06:10] Katie Dooley: There might be a witch in the Lodge but...
[01:06:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah. There's.. I've met a good handful of Masonic Wiccans, but that's they don't define Freemasonry more than most other groups. Let's be real. Christianity does a pretty good job applying their mark to Freemasonry, but it's not to the point that witchcraft is really excluded because we don't let the Christians say, hey, you can't be a Wiccan, or at least we try really hard not to let that happen. But if what is occult is a search for hidden knowledge, sure, that's pretty much our bread and butter, maybe. That we we want to know more about the world around us. Why would you not want to? But is that really occult? I don't think so. I mean, it's part of the occult experience, but is that actually itself occult?
[01:07:10] Katie Dooley: I don't There is really an occult experience, but.
[01:07:14] Preston Meyer: The people who describe themselves as occultists are looking for greater understanding of the world around them. So I think it's fair to say that that is the occult experience, and that's about as all encompassing of a statement as you can make.
[01:07:30] Katie Dooley: Spooky woooky as it gets.
[01:07:33] Preston Meyer: Sure. It's... I don't know. There are some Masons who are super interested in what is traditionally called occult. I've known one, maybe two, who are really into alchemy or astrology, but it's as a group, not so much there.
[01:07:52] Katie Dooley: So for our listeners, we have an extra special opportunity here with Mr. Preston. Not only is he a mason, he is currently the Grand Chaplain of Alberta, so he's an extra religious mason is what I take from that.
[01:08:08] Preston Meyer: Sure. Yeah, I'm more or less the the chief devotional authority.
[01:08:13] Katie Dooley: Well, tell tell us more about this, Preston. I'll just. I'll just sit here quietly for once.
[01:08:20] Preston Meyer: So it's the care for the volume of the sacred law is reposed in me, that I have to make sure the Bible is present, or that we cannot hold a meeting. That's kind of a big deal. Of course, if I were not there to make sure the Bible is present, someone else would take care of that for me because it's in the box. The office of Masonic Chaplain is interesting. So I've I've served in the capacity of chaplain a few times now in my own lodge, in council, and it's come up a few times where they're like, hey, Preston, we think you'd be good for this job. And I said, sure, I'll do it. The title of chaplain traditionally refers to a minister operating in a private chapel. You'll see them in hospitals, prisons, whatever. Yeah. It's different than in a church. So while Masonic sanctuaries don't typically use the nomenclature of chapel or minister, we are an assembly of believers as diverse as we might be. The prohibition against theological discussion may seem at odds with the duties of a chaplain, generally speaking, but I found that the Ministry of Masonic Chaplain does not require the preaching of any particular divisive doctrine. It's mostly try and help people out. A chaplain leads in prayer and, when necessary, advises a brother, usually using things that are part of our shared experience, like the ritual that we use. The chaplain has unique responsibility to offer invocations and benedictions on behalf of the Lodge. A lot of times, if there's not a chaplain or depending on how your ritual is written, sometimes the Worshipful Master is the one who leads everybody in prayer. Some people get really uppity about that title to Worshipful Master. A lot of cities have have it in law that you will address the mayor as your worship. It's not terribly common in North America, especially not in the United States. But it happens, and it's not that weird.
[01:10:18] Katie Dooley: I don't think it's weird.
[01:10:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[01:10:19] Katie Dooley: Who am I?
[01:10:20] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but some people get really uppity about it. Oh. Well, uh, while many religions prescribe a particular method of prayer in the lodge, it's appropriate, especially to address the maker only in terms that are agreeable to everybody present. So using terms like the Great Architect of the universe is great, because it's an example of a title that is generally understood to appeal to the highest divine authority, regardless of what you want to name him. You're praying to the one who created the universe. Bam! Solid. It's non-denominational. It's great because we need to be inclusive. Some people want to get super selective on inclusivity, and that's annoying. Like what we saw with the Southern Baptist Convention. Whatever. Generally speaking, religious certainty is a comforter. It feels nice to feel sure about what you believe, but there's no place for that in our fraternity. We all have reasons to believe whatever specific things have crept into your faith. As we've talked about the nature of belief on this show before. You can have authoritative testimony to help you believe something, or just the way you perceive things is solid evidence for you to believe something. That's fine. You don't get to argue about it in Lodge. We share a common belief that we are creatures indebted to a creator who demands that we keep covenants with him and with one another, which virtue is rewarded with, at the very least, faithful, enduring friendships. I can't think of any better creed than that.
[01:11:58] Katie Dooley: I like that.
[01:12:00] Preston Meyer: And that's really what the heart of Freemasonry is.
[01:12:03] Katie Dooley: Thanks for sharing.
[01:12:04] Preston Meyer: So basically, the thesis of how to be a good mason is a lot like the thesis that we've been pounding out all the time that we've been doing this show.
[01:12:13] Katie Dooley: Pounding.
[01:12:13] Preston Meyer: Don't be a dick. Yeah.
[01:12:20] Katie Dooley: Good one. Preston. Ah yeah! Um, and you know what? Before we wrap up this episode, I know we have a lot of your Mason friends that listen. So I just want to say a personal hello to you guys.
[01:12:33] Preston Meyer: Thanks for listening, guys. Yeah.
[01:12:37] Katie Dooley: That was a long episode.
[01:12:40] Preston Meyer: We'll see how long it is after we edit it.
[01:12:43] Katie Dooley: Fair, but let's wrap this puppy up.
[01:12:45] Preston Meyer: All right. Be sure to join us on discord. Join the conversation. Ask questions. I'm happy to answer any question about Freemasonry.
[01:12:54] Katie Dooley: Except what the rituals are.
[01:12:56] Preston Meyer: The answer might be. I can't tell you the specific secret, but I'll answer every question.
[01:13:01] Katie Dooley: Okay, fair.
[01:13:04] Preston Meyer: Plus, we have great memes and just great people on our discord already. So join the conversation. We've got our Facebook, our Instagram. Check out all kinds of stuff you want to learn. Random stuff about religion that just doesn't take up a whole episode. We've got posts about it on our social.
[01:13:20] Katie Dooley: We've been publishing a lot more bonus episodes on our Patreon, so if you want a early access to our regular episodes and some extra content, be sure to subscribe to us on Patreon if the subscription model is not your thing. We also have a Spreadshirt shop where you can buy some sick Holy Watermelon merch.
[01:13:45] Preston Meyer: Oh yeah, good times. Thanks for joining us.
[01:13:48]
Both Speakers:
Peace be with you.
