Religious communism isn't just for the weird new cult that bought up a farm down the road. People often forget, especially in the west, that Christianity was strictly communist in the first century, and that the Jewish nation from which they were born enjoyed a tightly regulated, moderately socialist dictatorship. Join us for an exploration of these and other groups who decided not to put arbitrary economic qualifications on "Love your neighbour."
Socialism isn't the bogeyman vaguely remembered from the Cold War--those governing parties used the title without admiring or espousing the core principle: common ownership of all goods and services. Religious groups often do a much better job of applying socialist and communist principles; but, like the "Second World," they tend to lean heavily into authoritarianism, the real enemy of freedom.
We take a look at Communal cults, hippie communes, ancient Hellenic and Vedic communal groups, and of course Christian groups--not just the Anabaptists, but the Latter-day Saints (Mormons), too. We also talk about some of the big Christian thinkers that have influenced western culture on the subject before the rise of Leninism.
All this and more....
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[00:00:10] Katie Dooley: I just need to reach the limit to know.
[00:00:12] Preston Meyer: Pretty confident it's not going to happen in regular dialogue.
[00:00:15] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we'd have to get pretty passionate about this. Hey, Preston. Nope.
[00:00:24] Preston Meyer: It needs to be right over that leg. Otherwise, it's coming down.
[00:00:27] Katie Dooley: That's what she said.
[00:00:30] Preston Meyer: Hi, Katie.
[00:00:33] Katie Dooley: Hi, Preston.
[00:00:36] Preston Meyer: Oh, man. What are we doing?
[00:00:40] Katie Dooley: What are we doing today? Sharing the wealth.
[00:00:43] Preston Meyer: Wealth of knowledge on the...
[00:00:45] Both Speakers: Holy Watermelon podcast!
[00:00:49] Preston Meyer: It's a bit of a stretch, but here we are.
[00:00:51] Katie Dooley: We could share other wealth, too.
[00:00:52] Preston Meyer: Sure. If I had someone to share.
[00:00:56] Katie Dooley: That's fair.
[00:00:59] Preston Meyer: Uh, yeah. Today we're going to talk about communism and socialism more broadly.
[00:01:05] Katie Dooley: Cue the Soviet national anthem, please.
[00:01:11] Preston Meyer: Uh, but this is not an economics podcast. So we're going to focus more on how this sort of nonsense gets tied to religion. And when I say nonsense, I mean people's reactions to communism.
[00:01:25] Katie Dooley: Or even that we look to our religious leaders to make political or economic decisions for us. In this day and age blows my mind. I guess it's a residual from a time when you would have. But you don't need to ask your priest who to vote for politically anymore. You can decide that for yourself.
[00:01:44] Preston Meyer: Right? Yeah. No. The church I belong to is fairly diverse, and there's people on both sides of this political divide.
[00:01:53] Katie Dooley: I think in most religions there's people on both sides of the economic political divide.
[00:02:01] Preston Meyer: In the good ones, I would expect so. But if there's anything that makes the conservative religious crowd freak out as much as allowing personal autonomy for women and homosexuals and anybody who isn't the straight white dude in charge, basically, it's the idea of communism. And I mean, all the best cults lean pretty hard into communism.
[00:02:30] Katie Dooley: I mean, yeah!
[00:02:31] Preston Meyer: Join our little farm and everything's gonna be dandy.
[00:02:34] Katie Dooley: Com-- here, words, guy. Did you know communism and commune come from the same root word?
[00:02:40] Preston Meyer: I'm not the tiniest bit surprised. This is what I fully expected.
[00:02:46] Katie Dooley: If you've ever talked about living on a commune, I have, you might have some communist tendencies. Community also.
[00:02:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that which is common.
[00:03:00] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:03:00] Preston Meyer: It's a good thing. Yeah. And it's really frustrating because most of the the most visible forms of communism that we've seen over the years also rely very heavily on authoritarianism so much to the point that a lot of people get really confused and think one is the same as the other.
[00:03:20] Katie Dooley: Well, they kind of come back full circle. There's a point where the line blurs and then you're just, I think even right and left-wing politics do that, where if you get so extreme action. Yeah, exactly. Eventually meet in the middle. So yeah. And in some of our examples. Right. We know communes can work. But then you get the problem where it's so big. Now you need a hierarchy which is counterintuitive to a commune.
[00:03:47] Preston Meyer: I mean you can have authoritarian communism like we've seen plenty of and there's plenty of anarchist communism.
[00:03:55] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:03:56] Preston Meyer: And anarchist communism in large groups is doomed to fail, for sure. You do need leadership. There needs to be somebody making decisions on how you're interacting financially with the world outside your commune. All kinds of stuff. But when they're dictators, that's when you're going to have a real problem.
[00:04:17] Preston Meyer: But it's hard because how do you get people to agree? You need a final decision-maker. You see this in business all the time. People trying to do lateral leadership in business. But you need a final decision-maker or nothing gets done. Yeah. So democracy is pretty great for a lot of reasons. Absolutely. Yeah and a lot of people love saying, oh, communism is so dangerous because they've they've tied it to authoritarianism, libertarianism more or less the opposite of authoritarianism, combined with capitalism, more or less the opposite of communism has also caused all of the same terrible problems.
[00:04:58] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It's weird. It's like moderation, like we talk about on our podcast is somehow a good thing,
[00:05:05] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:05:07] Katie Dooley: Weird.
[00:05:08] Preston Meyer: Funny how that works. Ah, now we should talk about some definitions of what we're really talking about here. Unfortunately, much like the word religion, socialism also is kind of a tricky thing to peg down.
[00:05:21] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:05:22] Preston Meyer: If you want a concise definition and one that's broadly accurate, you're going to have a bad time. It just doesn't work that way.
[00:05:29] Katie Dooley: But Preston's gonna try.
[00:05:31] Preston Meyer: There's there's so many different forms of socialism, but generally the one thing they have in common is the idea of social ownership of services or products. And there's a lot of different ways that that gets implemented as well. Communism is a kind of Socialism, a very specific kind, that it is fairly counted separately in most conversations where communism is group ownership of everything, everything, without exception, that the public library would be the idea of a place where you could get the car that you need this week, as well as the books and video games and whatnot. Doesn't sound that terrible if implemented correctly and equitably and justly, which is where things fall apart because people suck.
[00:06:25] Katie Dooley: Yeah, same reason capitalism falls apart is because people suck.
[00:06:30] Preston Meyer: Exactly. Wealth distribution super important to socialism. Generally, we're distributing wealth to elevate the poor. Eliminating poverty is fully impossible. The most frustrating thing about poverty is that it is a relative measure, which means that it will be redefined as circumstances evolve. Right now, poverty for us is people have a hard time surviving. It would be pretty nice if poverty could be redefined to people who have just a little bit less. That'd be cool. But that's not our reality right now.
[00:07:05] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I think in Canada, living below the poverty line means you make I think it's less than 40,000 a year. But obviously 30 years ago, that number would have been different.
[00:07:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Has... Well, the difference there is that what is the buying power of the dollar?
[00:07:20] Katie Dooley: Inflation.
[00:07:20] Preston Meyer: What is it that you need to to live the good life. All kinds of things.
[00:07:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah. What is the basic standard of living where you are, where you are living in Toronto is much more expensive than in Saskatchewan.
[00:07:34] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:07:34] Katie Dooley: So that changes the poverty line just within the country.
[00:07:38] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Yeah. So if we can eliminate the can't afford to live class, not by wiping them out but by elevating that poverty group. That's a win for every decent human being. But of course, there's people who want to fight against even that. And that sucks. The variety of socialist philosophies and social economic policies way too diverse. To be more specific on what com... What socialism is, really. It's a lot of things, a lot of different ideas.
[00:08:11] Katie Dooley: Is it a spectrum?
[00:08:13] Preston Meyer: Absolutely.
[00:08:14] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:08:17] Preston Meyer: Ideologies range from totalitarian to anarchist. Like I said before, that word I was looking for. I did write it down in my notes.
[00:08:23] Katie Dooley: Good, good.
[00:08:25] Preston Meyer: But a lot of people really think of socialism as this boogeyman.
[00:08:30] Katie Dooley: Russia
[00:08:31] Preston Meyer: Right? Mostly Russia. People also talk about Cuba, China, all that nonsense. The Soviet Union and everybody who modeled their political philosophy and economic philosophy off of them, was essentially founded on Marxist ideas to begin with, but the way they operated their authoritarian command market was fully corrupt. And I mean, you look at Stalin, super murderous. That's not an accident. That's just terrible people in charge, and they hoarded wealth themselves so that they could look good while they traveled abroad. And a lot of economists are recognizing, oh, yeah, that wasn't actually socialism. It was just really, really messed up capitalism.
[00:09:13] Katie Dooley: Yep. Yeah. Because they kept the poor, poor.
[00:09:17] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And I mean, Russia hasn't changed a whole lot since the fall of the Soviet Union. You still have a very small number of very rich people and everyone else has nothing.
[00:09:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:09:28] Preston Meyer: That's not communism, that's capitalism.
[00:09:31] Katie Dooley: But there are some good examples of communism communes or socialist socialism in action. Hippie communes.
[00:09:42] Preston Meyer: So much fun.
[00:09:43] Katie Dooley: So much fun. If you like marijuana or LSD or planting plants and singing songs.
[00:09:50] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:09:52] Katie Dooley: These were obviously incredibly popular in the 19 and 1960s and 70s during the hippie movement, but you can still find commune living today. There are about 3000 communes in the United States in these decades.
[00:10:06] Preston Meyer: That's a lot.
[00:10:07] Katie Dooley: It is if you think, even if you think that, I think I have the stats somewhere in here that there was about ten, ten or so families to a commune. Okay. So let's say 40 to 60 people times 3000. It's 20,000 people living in communes. Is that right?
[00:10:07] Preston Meyer: Sure, sure. That's a conservative estimate?
[00:10:27] Katie Dooley: Probably.
[00:10:28] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It was a lot of people.
[00:10:30] Katie Dooley: A lot of people.
[00:10:31] Preston Meyer: And when communes are smaller, it's pretty easy to make sure everything is just and equitable, but a little harder to have some real economic power for dealing with outsiders.
[00:10:42] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. Which we'll get into. Commune life is characterized by members sharing basically everything in some weirder communes or cults. This even includes sexual partners.
[00:10:54] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:10:55] Katie Dooley: Not that I want to judge polygamy or polyamory, but if you're in a danger call and aren't consenting,
[00:11:02] Preston Meyer: That's when you've got problems. Authoritarian versus libertarian communism.
[00:11:07] Katie Dooley: The idea is that you share the necessities for life, whether that be food, clothing, resources or skills. If you're living in a commune, it is expected that you're an active contributor to the function of said commune.
[00:11:19] Preston Meyer: Much like in capitalism, we expect people to contribute.
[00:11:23] Katie Dooley: Have you ever looked into cooperative housing? I can't say that I have. I have recently for a client, but someone told me about cooperative housing years ago, and there's some in our city and it's basically that, so you get subsidized rent, but whatever skills you have, it's expected you bring them to the. It's typically apartment or townhouse-style condominiums, so rent's way cheaper. But if you're a handyman,
[00:11:48] Preston Meyer: You're gonna be helping out.
[00:11:49] Katie Dooley: You're gonna be helping out.
[00:11:50] Preston Meyer: That's fine, that makes sense.
[00:11:52] Katie Dooley: I kind of love that because rent is very high in the city.
[00:11:55] Preston Meyer: Right? Should we start a commune?
[00:11:58] Katie Dooley: I mean, we could definitely add it to part of our Holy Watermelon foundation.
[00:12:05] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:12:05] Katie Dooley: Communal living. It is easy, like Preston said, for tribes or for communes to develop a tribe mentality. But people have always, almost always lived communally, dating back as far as early Neolithic tribes. So really, this idea of...
[00:12:21] Preston Meyer: Capitalism is new.
[00:12:22] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Preston Meyer: And clearly problematic. Communism while has its problems, has worked for a long time.
[00:12:31] Katie Dooley: So hippie communes weren't necessarily found in religion. They were basically mini cults. But I'm not saying that that they were danger cults necessarily. But you do get this hive mentality of obviously protecting what's yours. And working together.
[00:12:45] Preston Meyer: And and there's usually a charismatic figure that pulled everybody together to be like...
[00:12:50] Katie Dooley: Let's do this thing. Yeah.
[00:12:50] Preston Meyer: Doesn't mean it's dangerous. It just has made a lot of people very uncomfortable.
[00:12:58] Katie Dooley: I have a friend and I kind of love it. She wants to start, like a commune with her girlfriends where there's, like, 5 or 6 houses altogether. And the idea is that she stays married to her husband. But husbands don't do anything. So when she actually needs help, all her girlfriends would be there to help.
[00:13:20] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:13:20] Katie Dooley: And she wouldn't have to rely on the honey-do list that never gets done anymore. And I was like, I love that. Sorry, Bryant. And I'm talking to a husband right now. So you're probably also offended by that.
[00:13:34] Preston Meyer: I can easily choose not to be offended.
[00:13:34] Katie Dooley: Thank you.
[00:13:38] Preston Meyer: But, yeah, there's perks to communal living, for sure. Um, in fact, a lot of religious groups have leaned into communal living over the course of history, even as deliberately separate from the rest of the the broader community. Usually we see them in things like monasteries, which exist in a lot of religious traditions. The Indo-Aryan ashrams have been around since at least 1500 BCE. So a good three and a half millennia, I was going to say centuries. That's the wrong word.
[00:14:12] Katie Dooley: That's long, longer.
[00:14:12] Preston Meyer: Three and a half millennia, these ashrams have been around.
[00:14:15] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:14:16] Preston Meyer: Pythagoras started a vegetarian commune when he was about 50, which is kind of cool. I mean, he did also have a pretty serious cult-like following.
[00:14:25] Katie Dooley: I mean, I love the Pythagorean theorem, so...
[00:14:28] Preston Meyer: I mean, that's handy. He was his religion was very science and math-based, mostly.
[00:14:37] Katie Dooley: Do we have to do an episode on him?
[00:14:39] Preston Meyer: I think we might have to.
[00:14:40] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:14:40] Preston Meyer: But is... He he did live a culty life. It was kind of cool.
[00:14:45] Katie Dooley: The vegetarian piece intrigues me mildly.
[00:14:48] Preston Meyer: Right? I mean, you don't have to go off into the woods to hunt stuff.
[00:14:52] Katie Dooley: I guess so back then. Yeah. Fair.
[00:14:56] Preston Meyer: Buddhists have also been building monasteries since around the same time the late sixth century, so that's kind of cool. BCE, sixth century BCE.
[00:15:06] Katie Dooley: Yeah. When you're that close to zero, you got to clarify.
[00:15:08] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The Qumran community, the the group that's famous for producing the Dead Sea Scrolls, was also a puritanical commune. There, like those other Jews, are far too liberal for us, those city Jews and their Greekness, even though, I mean, the people of Jerusalem weren't super Greek. There were Greek elements, but it was.
[00:15:31] Katie Dooley: Way too Greek for them ,fair enough.
[00:15:32] Preston Meyer: For the Qumran community. And then, of course, Christians famously picked up the tradition very early in their history with building up monasteries all over the place and having monks and friars and whatnot.
[00:15:46] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. And then, I mean, I guess this is historical, but then we see a whole bunch of modern-day cults living communally, too.
[00:15:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So there's a pretty strong historical element of communes that are seen as people that are in the mainstream, more or less looking at these communes as people living the ideal, closer to God life. And here we are in 21st century North America, where most people of faith look at communists and the communist tradition as fully evil, which is just weird.
[00:16:26] Katie Dooley: Which kind of back onto the word thing. If you ask the average person on the street is community a good thing, and to define community, they would basically be defining communism.
[00:16:39] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:16:40] Katie Dooley: Right? Our community league asks for volunteers and helpers, whether that's a food drive or to paint the skating rink or whatever. And to know your neighbors and to help your neighbors. While it's not communal ownership, there's like maybe social communism that's...
[00:16:58] Preston Meyer: Even the stock market buying shares in a company. That's a form of socialism, which gets even worse when you have governments bailing out these companies that actually don't need the help. That's another really frustrating form of socialism.
[00:17:18] Katie Dooley: I, uh, I read some meme somewhere, and some lady was losing her shit about paying $0.05 for a bag and was calling everyone communists and socialists. And the cashier was like, ma'am, paying for a bag of capitalism. Me giving you a bag for free is socialism.
[00:17:35] Preston Meyer: Yep.
[00:17:37] Katie Dooley: Because I treat everyone equally then. Not based on whether they have money or not.
[00:17:41] Preston Meyer: Mhm. People way too often get way too confused about what socialism is.
[00:17:50] Katie Dooley: I mean, I, I don't think it's any secret that we're in Alberta. And I think that's a huge problem here where people will spew their beliefs and then say they vote for the Conservative Party. And it's like those things don't match because you don't realize that they don't match, especially in very conservative Alberta.
[00:18:10] Preston Meyer: The civic religion is really frustrating that a lot of people don't realize that they are sticking with their party for what amounts to religious...
[00:18:21] Katie Dooley: Reasons. Yeah, that's a different episode.
[00:18:23] Preston Meyer: Their commitment is fully religious just without any thought. There's lots of people who go to church every Sunday or twice a year, or anywhere in between, without thinking about the details. And people will go to the ballot box in the exact same mindset. Yeah, it's it's frustrating. But anyway, these these monasteries, the idea is to separate yourself from the ungodly pursuits of the wider public culture, especially like we saw in the Qumran community. That's pretty easy narrative to get yourself figured out around. Asceticism is thought to be the the ideal, and it is definitely the deal with these things. You renounce all personal possessions, you give everything you have to support the community, and then you work to meet the needs of that community, and you'll get the benefits coming back at you.
[00:19:16] Katie Dooley: And then ideally, you receive what you put in, in return. You're the handyman. And then you need an electrician because that's dangerous. And he just does it for you because you did something for him. Or someone baked you a pie.
[00:19:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Your life is comfortable because you're helping out in a community. Communism. Or at least socialism.
[00:19:39] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:19:40] Preston Meyer: And I want to I want to look a little bit deeper into how some of these traditions get preserved in Christianity, in a few different forms.
[00:19:48] Katie Dooley: Sure.
[00:19:50] Preston Meyer: So mainstream Christianity has typically really emphasized this phrase of be in the world, but not of the world means interact with your neighbors. But don't be like your neighbors.
[00:20:04] Katie Dooley: Be better than your neighbours.
[00:20:05] Preston Meyer: Exactly. And a lot of people are really bad at that.
[00:20:09] Katie Dooley: Please see our last episode!
[00:20:12] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So anyway, capitalism as well as prosperity churches have shown that they sometimes don't even really work that hard to walk that line. It's frustrating, but a few groups have fully embraced communism in a way that actually separates them from the world. Leaning the other way to fail in this be in the world, but not of the world. And it's kind of become a weird popular form of Christian totalitarianism, especially within the Anabaptist movement. We've got a few different Hutterite branches. There's a lot of Hutterites in the plains of Canada and the United States.
[00:20:57] Katie Dooley: The northwest United States. Yeah.
[00:21:00] Preston Meyer: So Jacob Hutter established the first Hutterer colonies that later came to be known as the Hutterites, back in 1528. So almost 500 years ago.
[00:21:10] Katie Dooley: A very long time ago.
[00:21:11] Preston Meyer: Big anniversary coming up for them.
[00:21:13] Katie Dooley: Nice. Will they celebrate? No one knows.
[00:21:16] Preston Meyer: Not likely. I don't well, yeah, maybe. I don't know, I'm guessing. And with zero real feeling behind the the guess. But after centuries of moving around the world, they went to Russia after they got pushed out of Germany and then ended up here in North America. And there's about 570 Hutterite colonies around the world. There might be a little bit bigger, a little bit smaller. It fluctuates. And there's some in Japan, apparently.
[00:21:46] Katie Dooley: Yes. That was really interesting. They like, aren't related. They just are just a group of Japanese people that got, like, the stamp of approval to be Hutterites.
[00:21:56] Preston Meyer: That's cool.
[00:21:56] Katie Dooley: We'll talk about that more when we get to our Hutterite episode. But yeah, so 569 of the colonies are here, and there's one in Japan.
[00:22:07] Preston Meyer: Okay, that's pretty cool. Uh, so everything is owned by the colony in these situations. They are fully communist. And then there's a minister who's in charge, and he gets to make a lot of the of the decisions, most of the financial decisions and arranging who goes what, who gets what is the job of the secretary actually most and there's a little bit of variation from one group to the next.
[00:22:35] Katie Dooley: Did you look into how this person is appointed, elected? Hired? Does it change every year? I'm just curious. We can.
[00:22:45] Preston Meyer: I actually don't know the answer to that.
[00:22:46] Katie Dooley: Just again, kind of back to that fairness thing. If to keep it from being a dictatorship, to have turnover elected democratically or I'm just.
[00:22:58] Preston Meyer: I don't know the answer to that.
[00:22:59] Katie Dooley: We'll look into it.
[00:23:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So company owns everything. And they cite a couple of passages in the Acts of the Apostles in the Christian Bible, where it says that they had all things in common. This, describing the church and as much as a lot of Christian thinkers like to deny that communism was ever practiced in Christianity. It absolutely was. It's in black and white in the Acts of the Apostles. It's super obvious. If you're intellectually honest, you'll see it.
[00:23:35] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:23:36] Preston Meyer: And so the Hutterites really jumped onto this and said, this is the way we want to live our life. This is the way God wants us to live it. So we're going to do it. And we've got 500 years of this tradition working for them.
[00:23:49] Katie Dooley: Mostly.
[00:23:51] Preston Meyer: I mean, there's weirdness. There are some bad actors, as there are in any group, but they still are economically surviving just fine.
[00:24:00] Katie Dooley: That's true. They actually where we are, there are some very wealthy colonies. They... You can find them at farmers markets. They're big farm communities. So they produce, meat. Very, very wealthy communities. They don't have to pay taxes because they are a religious group. So some people don't like supporting the Hutterites here because they make a bunch of money, don't have to pay taxes. Fun fact that I've included Hutterites are so closed off you can't just like, convert to Hutterite-ism.
[00:24:29] Preston Meyer: Joining a colony is so hard.
[00:24:30] Katie Dooley: Yeah, it's not like I could walk into a Christian church and they'd slurp me up, right? So Hutterites generally don't want you.
[00:24:39] Preston Meyer: They're they're very suspicious of...
[00:24:42] Katie Dooley: Why someone would want to. It's they are one of the most inbred communities in the world.
[00:24:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's it's tricky when the when the colony gets too big, they split. And they will very often look to other communities that aren't so closely genetically related to hopefully keep them safe, genetically speaking.
[00:25:04] Katie Dooley: Yeah, they'll typically send their daughters out to a new community. And they do. They keep really close track of genetics because it's an issue.
[00:25:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah, they do keep close track. There's this urban myth that's been going around for decades at least.
[00:25:20] Katie Dooley: Which I just heard today.
[00:25:22] Preston Meyer: Of, you know, you'll hear somebody say, oh, yeah, the Hutterites picked me up, put me in the back of their truck, and paid me 50 bucks to knock up a few of their daughters. There's some huge problems with the idea of that happening...
[00:25:34] Katie Dooley: Theologically.
[00:25:35] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's it's strictly forbidden to have sex outside of marriage in the Hutterite tradition, as in almost every Christian tradition.
[00:25:44] Katie Dooley: And Adultery?
[00:25:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Like we got a lot of reasons why this is a bad policy. And everybody who has made the claim who has said, oh, yes, I've experienced this because you hear a lot about, oh, yeah, my uncle told me, but everybody who says I have done this, they can't substantiate their claim at all.
[00:26:05] Katie Dooley: Fair.
[00:26:06] Preston Meyer: If you are one of these people who has told people and you can back it up, I guess I'd like to hear about that.
[00:26:15] Katie Dooley: I would like to. Parts of it.
[00:26:17] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I don't need the gross details, but, you know, whatever. Let's move on. Uh, yeah. So Hutterites are allowed to leave, generally speaking. But it's hard to leave a Hutterite colony because everything you have is owned by the company of the colony. So you don't get to take a whole lot with you when you go. And some families are more generous than others. You know, some might give you a little bit of money to see you on your way so that you don't freeze overnight kind of deal. But that's not the norm. Which does make it look a little bit culty sometimes.
[00:26:58] Katie Dooley: We also don't I mean, if you're one of the ones coming to the farmers markets every week, you probably do speak English, but they don't speak English.
[00:27:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah, they speak German usually,
[00:27:08] Katie Dooley: And it's like a... But it's not like German German.
[00:27:12] Preston Meyer: No, it's Hutterite German.
[00:27:13] Katie Dooley: It's Hutterite German. So I kind of compare it to like Yiddish was this amalgamation of German and Hebrew.
[00:27:19] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:27:20] Katie Dooley: And that's kind of what Hutterite German is.
[00:27:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's kind of nifty.
[00:27:25] Katie Dooley: Yeah, it is pretty cool.
[00:27:28] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's, uh, it's kind of cool. And then if a Hutterite wants to keep going to church when they leave a Hutterite colony, they very often will end up joining a Mennonite church. They're theologically identical, or at least very similar, of course. Variety, diversity, because people. The Mennonites are closely connected. I want to say Hutter was...
[00:27:56] Katie Dooley: Hutter and Menno knew each other.
[00:27:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah, they had a lot of agreements on things but didn't agree on the communal living.
[00:28:03] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:28:04] Preston Meyer: And so it's an easy conversion for Hutterites when they leave the colony. I'm curious if a Mennonite would be more welcomed to join a Hutterite colony than the average other outsider.
[00:28:19] Katie Dooley: I don't know. I'd love to interview a Hutterite.
[00:28:22] Preston Meyer: Sure, I might be able to hook that up. We'll see.
[00:28:24] Katie Dooley: All right.
[00:28:26] Preston Meyer: It's kind of cool.
[00:28:29] Katie Dooley: Amish you a very merry Christmas.
[00:28:34] Preston Meyer: Do the Amish celebrate Christmas?
[00:28:35] Katie Dooley: I don't actually know.
[00:28:37] Preston Meyer: You know what they definitely don't do? Is put electric lights around a tree.
[00:28:41] Katie Dooley: Absolutely not. So the Amish are another Anabaptist group that live communally. The big difference between the Amish and the Hutterites is the Amish are scared of technology, whereas the Hutterites 100% use GPS combines.
[00:28:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah for sure. Because why not?
[00:29:00] Katie Dooley: Because work is meant to make you sweat.
[00:29:02] Preston Meyer: Absolutely. This idea comes from Genesis, where you'll get your bread by the sweat of your brow. And the Hutterites are like, well, we can do it better. And the Amish are like, but we're going to be better. So, you know, you got perks either way.
[00:29:17] Katie Dooley: And then the Hutterites wipe their brow with all their money.
[00:29:20] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:29:21] Katie Dooley: Because they can produce more.
[00:29:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but it's not just the Anabaptists that are into communal living historically. Back in the 1830s, Joseph Smith was way into communism. So a few a couple years ago, I was talking to the missionary that was teaching me before I was baptized. I haven't actually seen either of them...
[00:29:50] Katie Dooley: A couple of years ago? I feel like this... you were only baptized a couple of years?
[00:29:54] Preston Meyer: No, I was talking to him a couple years ago.
[00:29:55] Katie Dooley: Oh, the ones who baptized okay, it sounds like you were only baptized. I understand. I'm with you.
[00:30:00] Preston Meyer: I was baptized 20 years ago. Give or take a little change.
[00:30:04] Katie Dooley: And a couple years ago.
[00:30:06] Preston Meyer: A couple years ago, talking to one of the missionaries. That was the one I was teaching me, and she, well, she had started this conversation with communism is bad. And it was a really weird conversation because, like, I hadn't said anything pro-communism up to this point. And then I'm like, well, you do know Joseph Smith was a communist, right? And she's naturally a big fan of Joseph Smith. She immediately blocked me. I've never heard from her since.
[00:30:41] Katie Dooley: Oh, no.
[00:30:44] Preston Meyer: And it was such a weird exchange.
[00:30:47] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:30:48] Preston Meyer: I mean, to be that immediately offended by the statement Joseph Smith was a communist. Feels like you don't know anything about it.
[00:31:00] Katie Dooley: Yes. Yeah.
[00:31:03] Preston Meyer: But in the early 1830s, very shortly after establishing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which at the time was just the Church of Christ, Joseph instituted the United Order, which was also known by a couple of other pseudonyms, for legal reasons. They wanted to actually keep it super hush hush that it was a communist group. But if you read the church's publications, the the Doctrine and Covenants is a good example where they lay out a whole bunch of specific commands, telling the bishop, you're going to deal with these things, all kinds of stuff like that. It's super obvious that it was communism. To deny that is fully ludicrous, that everybody was meant to be equal in all measures of wealth. Every member of the church, without exception, and bishops, were to receive everything that you had that you didn't need and would redistribute so that everybody's needs were met. That is communism.
[00:32:03] Katie Dooley: Well even today, from my understanding, jump in obviously if I'm misinformed. But we know the LDS church has a tithe, a mandatory tithe, and a high tithe. But you also have your food stores and I know you have your fast day, but I mean, it looks like from the outside, if you're a member of the church, you're pretty well taken care of if you're in a decent community or ward.
[00:32:29] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's a little different when you have a bishop who is super anti-socialist and is super withholding.
[00:32:39] Katie Dooley: But the food stores are like a real thing.
[00:32:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And you just you talk to the Relief Society president and they'll give you your checklist of. Yeah, I want four cans of pork and beans and two turkeys and three watermelons and four blocks of cheese.
[00:32:57] Katie Dooley: Thank you for saying watermelon.
[00:33:00] Preston Meyer: And then you take that checklist to the bishop's storehouse and you get that stuff for free. Yeah, as long as the bishop consents.
[00:33:08] Katie Dooley: Oh, interesting. So would there be a reason to store food and not give it away?
[00:33:14] Preston Meyer: None at all.
[00:33:14] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:33:17] Preston Meyer: What's food for? Eating.
[00:33:19] Katie Dooley: Is it for eating? Um. Because then you have your fast day. And is it the money you save from not eating? Or the food you would save from not eating, you donate? I guess the Bishop's storehouse manages what they need.
[00:33:32] Preston Meyer: Generally it's money, and everybody's encouraged to give generously. The the baseline suggestion is. Yeah, the money that you would have saved by not eating. Pass it along so that somebody else can eat when they don't get to normally. And if you're serious about helping out your neighbors and you have the means, a generous fast offering is pretty standard. Yeah, of course, the church didn't stick around with this united order for very long. Few elders abused the system, and also Joseph Smith made some really poor banking decisions. And then the whole church is just like, screw it. This United Order thing is not okay because I'm greedy. I want to keep my stuff for me. I work hard. I'm a capitalist. Communism is not okay for me because I want to be rich and I don't care about you guys. And that's the way we see capitalism work.
[00:34:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Modernly, we have Koinonia Farm, and I found this in our research. It's looks like a nondenominational Christian farm in Georgia, where you can go and save for some good old-fashioned communal living.
[00:34:50] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:34:50] Katie Dooley: The the word, the name comes from the Greek word meaning common or shared life. But it's it looks like it's, um, more like a retreat. Like you'd stay for two months or four months or six months, and then you'd...
[00:35:05] Preston Meyer: So it lets you try out communal life.
[00:35:07] Katie Dooley: I mean, I'm sure there's people who are long-term tenants, but to get back to the earth and to Jesus.
[00:35:14] Preston Meyer: Okay, that's kind of nifty.
[00:35:16] Katie Dooley: I mean, we should go for a week.
[00:35:21] Preston Meyer: Is it really communal living if you're only going to do it for a week?
[00:35:24] Katie Dooley: I guess it depends on how much money they take from us.
[00:35:29] Preston Meyer: I guess so. It's it's really weird. I mentioned this before. There's a lot of scholarly debate about whether the first generation of Christians practiced communism.
[00:35:39] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:35:40] Preston Meyer: I don't understand why it's a debate.
[00:35:42] Katie Dooley: Because, I mean, even if you just looked at the date, everyone was still living well, for the most part communally. Then I guess we obviously had imperialism and emperors and things like that. But for the most part, Any sort of small town or village would be pretty communal.
[00:36:00] Preston Meyer: Pretty communal, like not full community owns everything business, but...
[00:36:05] Katie Dooley: A lot of help your neighbor and.
[00:36:07] Preston Meyer: Oh for sure, a lot of that.
[00:36:09] Katie Dooley: Becky knows how to bake and because there would be a Becky in the first century.
[00:36:13] Preston Meyer: There would be a lot of socialist action. Yeah, not necessarily socialist government policies everywhere, but that's a... It's not a big step away from communism. Anyway, it's it really bugs me that there is scholarly debate on whether there was communism practiced in early Christianity. It just doesn't feel like there's intellectual honesty in that argument. The Acts of the Apostles in every Christian Bible outlines in the first five chapters that they did not hold personal property. It it was banned. And chapter five specifically tells the story of a couple who were killed for withholding their wealth from the church.
[00:36:56] Katie Dooley: Jesus whipped the bankers.
[00:36:58] Preston Meyer: He did because they were trying to make a profit off of a religiously mandated system. So yeah, Jesus was pissed off about that. The only genuine debate that scholars can have on the matter and still be intellectually honest, is how long communism persisted in the church. Some people say that it was less than a month, which.
[00:37:23] Katie Dooley: That just feels like a pain.
[00:37:25] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:37:26] Katie Dooley: I'm not giving you my property for three weeks or less.
[00:37:29] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:37:29] Katie Dooley: It's just more of a administrative headache.
[00:37:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah, some people say that it was just because a bunch of people were in town too long for the Pentecost, which, if you read the Acts of the Apostles, that that argument falls flat on its face, real hard. The Pentecost was five weeks after or 50 days, not five weeks, 50 days, about seven weeks after Passover when Jesus died. It was this great outpouring of the spirit and great miracles were seen. And so people who stuck around to see that stuck around a little bit longer to see what's going on with this community. And so a lot of people argue that they just asked for donations to help house these people for the extra few days or whatever it was. That's nonsense. If you're killing people for withholding money, that's communism. A lot of people like to say, well, Paul said that God prefers a willing giver and that if you don't want to, if you don't want to give, you shouldn't give. Well, if you're a biblical literalist, God killed this couple for withholding money. And any other position other than this whole book is fiction. The reasonable intellectual conclusion is the church killed these people for withholding their money. So enforced communism was a real thing and would not have happened if they were looking at a very short, temporary thing. That's nonsense. But in this setting, Israel and Judah had legislated some pretty intense socialist policies. The corners of every field were the right of every beggar. Nobody was ever going to go hungry because farmers were not allowed to harvest from the corners of their fields. And now you see a lot of farmers not even ceding the corners of their fields because yay, capitalism! Charging interest on debts was forbidden.
[00:39:42] Katie Dooley: Usury, yeah.
[00:39:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I mean, the Jewish population changed their policy on that in the Middle Ages, around the Renaissance.
[00:39:50] Katie Dooley: I guess the line in the Bible that I heard in religious studies is like, you're not allowed to charge interest to your own people or to your to the people. And Christians took that as everyone, and Jews just took it as other Jews. Which I kind of love.
[00:40:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I mean, the The Merchant of Venice is a a great popular story that you see this come up as an issue. Also, all debts were to be forgiven every seven years, regardless of how long the debt was in place or how big it was.
[00:40:25] Katie Dooley: That could come back.
[00:40:26] Preston Meyer: Right? That'd be just fine. Oh, no. I went seven years without paying off my student loans. Thanks. Oh my mortgage, 25-year term. Nope.
[00:40:38] Katie Dooley: Interest rates would go up.
[00:40:40] Preston Meyer: Ah, but I mean, if we're going to use the Bible to defend this seven-year cycle, we're going to get rid of interest I mean, loans are super predatory right now anyway, and it's probably only going to get worse.
[00:40:55] Katie Dooley: Yep.
[00:40:57] Preston Meyer: Also, there were different sacrifices to be offered by poor people for the same blessings that everyone else did.
[00:41:03] Katie Dooley: So you didn't have to bring a whole cow. If you couldn't afford a whole cow.
[00:41:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah, if you're if you're poor and you can only catch a pigeon,
[00:41:11] Katie Dooley: Awwww
[00:41:11] Preston Meyer: Then that's okay.
[00:41:12] Katie Dooley: Awww
[00:41:13] Preston Meyer: That's a valid sacrifice.
[00:41:14] Katie Dooley: I appreciate that.
[00:41:15] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:41:16] Katie Dooley: It's kind of cute.
[00:41:17] Preston Meyer: A pigeon is a way easier...
[00:41:18] Katie Dooley: You know, like when a kid, when a kid pays for a candy with some pebbles and a button and you're like, you can have the candy.
[00:41:23] Preston Meyer: Right? Yeah, so this hardcore capitalism was really not okay in the eyes of the Jewish people until, you know, more recently when that was how they needed to survive. Because Christians have sucked for a long time as neighbours. The Jesus we have on record was not really vocal about political or economic policies, but I mean to say that he was socialist is a very fair representation of fact. He demanded the unqualified liberation of prisoners.
[00:42:01] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:42:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah. He commanded people to sell everything they had, and then give all of that money from the sale to poor people.
[00:42:10] Katie Dooley: That's pretty extreme, because now you're poor.
[00:42:12] Preston Meyer: Right? And he commanded this fairly often, by the looks of it. He condemned people who tried to profit from religious and civil laws, like, you know, do your job. Cool. But if you want to get rich off of doing this thing that we straight up need as a community. No, that's not cool.
[00:42:32] Katie Dooley: Scientology getting rich off of religious.
[00:42:35] Preston Meyer: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And Jesus also never condemned the poor for being lazy. He never told them to get jobs, never told them to solve your own problems, you're poor. Like we see so many Christians doing today.
[00:42:48] Katie Dooley: I mean, people in general.
[00:42:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah, well, okay, there's there's an awful lot of people who have no value or worship for Jesus who hate the poor. Fine, but...
[00:43:00] Katie Dooley: When you're when your dude is telling you something and you're not listening. Yeah, absolutely. That's a different story.
[00:43:05] Preston Meyer: There's there's an awful lot of people in love with Jesus who don't love Jesus enough to even learn what he says, let alone do as he says. And that's frustrating to me.
[00:43:23] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah. Now we're going to talk about some specific communists.
[00:43:29] Preston Meyer: So we talked about the fellow Saint Thomas More a little while ago. He was a saint who maybe.
[00:43:34] Katie Dooley: Shouldn't have been a saint, but not for this reason.
[00:43:39] Preston Meyer: No, there's there's more,
[00:43:40] Katie Dooley: There's more. So we talked about his love of book burning specifically. That's why he wasn't allowed to be a saint, right?
[00:43:49] Preston Meyer: Well, yeah, it's weird calling him a saint when he's like, no, if you read the Bible, you're a bad Christian.
[00:43:54] Katie Dooley: Oh, right, yeah.
[00:43:55] Preston Meyer: And I mean, there's a lot of Christians in North America today who seem to have jumped on that bandwagon.
[00:44:01] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So he was the first person I thought this was super interesting. He was the first person to use the word Utopia was the title of one of his books. It's a pun from the Greek word utopos, meaning good place and outopus meaning nowhere.
[00:44:18] Preston Meyer: A place that is so great it couldn't possibly exist, wouldn't exist.
[00:44:21] Katie Dooley: So in this novel, he talks about communal ownership, equal education for men and women, religious tolerance. Except they still hate atheists. So like anything other than an atheist is fine and legal euthanasia like these are some very 20. Like we're still debating this today. 20th and 21st century ideas of.
[00:44:40] Preston Meyer: I mean our federal government has legalized euthanasia.
[00:44:43] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:44:44] Preston Meyer: It's it's a little bit weird how easy it is.
[00:44:47] Katie Dooley: It's very easy.
[00:44:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah. In fact, our government basically encourages people with mental disabilities or mental illnesses to just go ahead and kill yourself. It's it's kind of gross.
[00:45:00] Katie Dooley: That's too much. Yeah. No, that's actually terrible. But, uh, yeah. Someone I am acquainted with, her father in law has chosen this this assisted death. So. Yeah. Interesting. Uh, he has cancer. So not the gross stuff of. Oh. You're sick. Goodbye. I mean, I guess he is sick, but obviously it's terminal cancer, so. Saint Thomas More is known and he was executed for refusing to take the Oath of Supremacy, making Henry the eighth head of the Church of England. So he was sainted for his martyrdom. But yeah, he had all of these very like what we would call left policies now of utopia and sharing everything and women getting an education. What the fuck?
[00:45:43] Preston Meyer: Right? What a mess.
[00:45:44] Katie Dooley: What a mess, women getting educated. I'm kidding.
[00:45:48] Preston Meyer: Speaking of the 1500s and the the weird beginnings of Protestantism in Europe, there's a fella named John Calvin. We've mentioned him a couple of times before.
[00:45:58] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we have. Weird guy.
[00:46:01] Preston Meyer: I mean, a little bit. He was a French pastor who didn't stay in France. He traveled around a lot, learned a lot, and really jumped on board this Reformation business. In addition to claiming that the Catholic Church couldn't possibly be Catholic because they hate the diversity of thought. He also claimed that all people are predestined to eternal glory or damnation. Nothing you can do will ever change your fate. This is one of the things that people highlight when they think of Calvinist theology.
[00:46:30] Katie Dooley: Calvinism is pretty brutal.
[00:46:32] Preston Meyer: Yeah, and it's not that he liked this idea. He did. He has said on a couple of occasions. He doesn't think that it's a terribly hopeful theology, but he can't see any way around it. He's convinced that this is the way it is, and I think most Calvinists feel exactly the same way. It's not hopeful. It's not great. But this is what we believe.
[00:46:51] Katie Dooley: I mean, I'm kind of the same with atheism. People are like, so you think there's nothing after death that must be horrible? I'm like, yeah, it kind of is. I don't like it. But yeah.
[00:47:01] Katie Dooley: Right?
[00:47:02] Katie Dooley: Shit.
[00:47:03] Preston Meyer: Makes sense. He declared that there are only two sacraments baptism and the Lord's Supper, though he also was very strictly anti-transubstantiation. He's like saying the bread is flesh is crazy, but the bread is important, the wine is important.
[00:47:20] Katie Dooley: But it is not literally..
[00:47:21] Preston Meyer: It's not literally Jesus.
[00:47:25] Katie Dooley: Because that's cannibalism.
[00:47:27] Preston Meyer: Right? And cannibalism is not a bandwagon that we should be excited to jump on. But I mean, it's not the worst possible thing to be teaching people. It's just really weird.
[00:47:42] Katie Dooley: Only if there's consent to be eaten.
[00:47:45] Preston Meyer: And there's a growing market in this field, so we've got that one. I mean, as far as the story of Jesus, if you believe in transubstantiation, there is consent to be eaten. He did say, eat this.
[00:48:00] Katie Dooley: This is my body and this is my... Fair. Yep.
[00:48:05] Preston Meyer: So there's not a consent problem here. So that's good.
[00:48:08] Katie Dooley: Good.
[00:48:09] Preston Meyer: Anyway, Calvin was one of the early advocates for the complete separation of church and state.
[00:48:13] Katie Dooley: Love it.
[00:48:14] Preston Meyer: Right? Except for when he actually talked about it. Turns out, as much as he said he liked the separation, he could not actually wrap his head around it. He also, he said that rulers who turn against God should be deposed and that the state should execute heretics. So that's still...
[00:48:32] Katie Dooley: That's confusing.
[00:48:33] Preston Meyer: Not separation.
[00:48:34] Katie Dooley: That's not. Nope.
[00:48:37] Preston Meyer: But an interesting fella. Anyway, he was also one of the first Christians to defend capitalism and usury, yeah.
[00:48:46] Katie Dooley: He sounds like a confused man.
[00:48:49] Preston Meyer: I mean, he thought of himself as an intellectual and pragmatic guy. Like some of these things, they just don't make sense in the world anymore. So let's abandon them. Thanks, John. He did like the idea of democracy, but definitely felt that it was important to preserve aristocracy. And so combining those two. So like, yeah, you can have the vote, but these people's votes are more important. Calvinism very popular in the States, especially if you want to look at how their electoral system is built. It's a disaster. And I'm not a fan, but I mean, the country hasn't actually burned down yet. Yet, Yeah. Interesting. John Calvin's an interesting fella. And a lot of people really like his thoughts. And some of them are easy to get on board with. Others are like, what? How is your day going, John? Anyway.
[00:49:48] Katie Dooley: I liked how sassy he was for sure. I do have some respect for him for that.
[00:49:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Recognizing that a lot of the relics are problematic and weird and and very weird. Go and check out that episode. You Want A Piece of [00:50:14] Katie Dooley: Red scare. Yeah. [00:50:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The communists are our enemies. Those godless communists, I mean. Yeah. Russia and China were their state religion to say was focus on the community and the head of state. There is no God was the official stance of these states. So. Okay, godless communists is more or less factual, but their economic policies wasn't why they were the enemy. [00:50:44] Katie Dooley: Yeah. [00:50:45] Preston Meyer: Oh, well, it's it's weird that there are so many Christians who are way too happy to say that God only wants your willing gifts when God wants all of our best. If you believe in God, he wants you to be a specific way. And sure you can rebel against that. That doesn't mean that God wants you to be super awful to each other. It's easier to just say there's no God than try and be a believer in a God that definitely is your own fiction. [00:51:24] Katie Dooley: Yes. And then, you know the doctrine. We talked about the piece of the Bible we've talked about. Then it's like, well, why wouldn't it be willing then? Right. So there's sure maybe he doesn't want you to give unwillingly, but why? What are you unwilling to give? You know, do you give your like, why wouldn't you give your money to the homeless man on the street corner? Why are you unwilling to do that? Yeah. And if you have your own poverty, that's a different story. But if you're in a place to do it, why would. Right. So, sure, maybe he doesn't want you to be give unwillingly, but it sounds like there should be no reason for you to be not willing to give. [00:51:59] Preston Meyer: It's another thing that really frustrates me in this, this whole thing is that, like the missionary that refuses to talk to me anymore. There's... It's a really weird position to to stand in where you can say, I'm a Christian. I believe the Bible and everything in it, but socialism is evil. No, no. If you think socialism is bad, Then you can't possibly have cared very much about the things Jesus says. [00:52:33] Katie Dooley: Or you don't understand what socialism is. [00:52:35] Preston Meyer: Right. And there is a fair bit of that. A lot of people just jump on the Red scare socialism bad without putting any thought into it. That's embarrassing, but it is a reality. It's frustrating to see people stand up at the pulpit and knowingly contradict Jesus and then say, follow me and still wear the label of Christian. That's gross to me, but I see it a lot more often than I would like. [00:53:06] Katie Dooley: I'm sure. I just see it in like pop culture and social media, the things you see about churches, you see. I mean, we'll do a whole episode on prosperity gospel one day, and that's super gross. [00:53:19] Preston Meyer: Learn more about communism. Learn more about socialism. Learn more about the world around you. [00:53:25] Katie Dooley: Christianity. [00:53:26] Preston Meyer: And if you really believe in a thing then learn more about that thing. If you're going to be reading the Bible. Read it to see what's in it. Read it to learn what's in it. Not just looking for something that validates your prejudices. [00:53:46] Katie Dooley: I like that that was a good summary. [00:53:48] Preston Meyer: And we've also got Katie's first real Bible study on our Patreon. [00:53:53] Katie Dooley: Two Bible studies on our Patreon. [00:53:54] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we're we're a couple episodes in now. We're having some good times with that. [00:53:59] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I'm all the way to First Kings. [00:54:03] Preston Meyer: Very nice. [00:54:04] Katie Dooley: So there you go. If you want to know more about the Bible specifically, we are doing. Katie does a Bible study on Patreon. Patreon. If you want to share the wealth. [00:54:17] Preston Meyer: Let's make this a real business. [00:54:19] Katie Dooley: You want to share with the poor. I'm kidding. We do have our Patreon. It does help us keep this podcast going and hopefully be producing more content more frequently. If the subscription model is not your thing, we also have our Spreadshirt. [00:54:33] Preston Meyer: So much good merch. [00:54:34] Katie Dooley: So much good merch. We have new merch launching as well all the time. So that's the the socialism plug for money. But also please join us on our social media which is free. [00:54:47] Preston Meyer: Right? Yay socialism. [00:54:49] Katie Dooley: Socialism. Social media. Socialism. Right. What? [00:54:54] Preston Meyer: What a coincidence. [00:54:55] Katie Dooley: We're building a community on discord. Uh, yes. Check out our discord. Instagram. Facebook. We have some great conversations on Discord in particular. And that's all for this week. [00:55:08] Preston Meyer: Thanks for joining us. [00:55:10] Both Speakers: Peace be with you.
