Looking again to Katie's Irish roots, the Troubles of Northern Ireland are a fascinating example of how religion gets tied to conflict. But is it really a religious conflict? What are the prerequisites for such a label. How much is religion really a part of the problem. Join us for an exploration of the history behind the Troubles, and the people who motivate them. It's easy to take sides, but solving the problem is a lot more complicated than agreeing to a cease-fire. Centuries of nationalism and colonialism have caused deep scars....
We take a look at the unionist "planters" who came from Great Britain to colonize Ireland, and follow through the Williamite Wars, and the Battle of the Boyne. We talk about Bobby Sands, and the assassination of Lord Mountbatten, and the Incredible Hulk's alter-ego, Bruce Banner.
The Orange Order has some interesting history, not all of it good. Colonial nationalism and defensive patriotic nationalism are all that's left behind when you strip away the religious labels, but is it really that simple?
All this and more....
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[00:00:10] Preston Meyer: Ah! Time to get back into the Irish. Have we ever been?
[00:00:17] Katie Dooley: Oh, I was like, have we ever been into the Irish? We did Celtic religion.
[00:00:21] Preston Meyer: We sure did.
[00:00:23] Katie Dooley: Fair, fair.
[00:00:25] Preston Meyer: So it's time for another episode of...
[00:00:28] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon podcast!
[00:00:33] Katie Dooley: What the heck are we talking about today? If not potatoes or Morrigan.
[00:00:39] Preston Meyer: The green and orange.
[00:00:41] Katie Dooley: Oh, no. Very controversial topic,
[00:00:46] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:00:47] Katie Dooley: Still.
[00:00:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's... Ireland is a country that's had a really hard time for so long. And it's, relatively speaking, in a pretty good point in its history right now.
[00:01:07] Katie Dooley: It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are many examples of countries that have been divided by religion. I'd say probably most famously, is Israel and Palestine.
[00:01:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:01:20] Katie Dooley: And this is one conflict that I, that most people aren't even aware of is still to some extent, happening today. Like you said, it's better than it's always been. But there is a religious...? We'll get into that conflict in Ireland and Northern Ireland against the Catholics and the Protestants.
[00:01:43] Preston Meyer: Between the Catholics and the Protestants,
[00:01:46] Katie Dooley: Between the Catholics and the Protestants.
[00:01:49] Preston Meyer: Yeah...
[00:01:50] Katie Dooley: It's Catholics against Protestants.
[00:01:53] Preston Meyer: Yes, and Protestants against Catholics. There's an awful lot of violence coming from both sides, and it's super easy to say, obviously, this is a religious conflict because one half is Catholic and the adversaries are Protestants. But we'll get into the details. It's not that simple.
[00:02:15] Katie Dooley: Well absolutely not. It's morphed over the centuries that it's happened, and I think it's a good conflict to look at and extrapolate information to other conflicts around the world, to really see if it is a religious conflict or not. This one's always blown my mind because they're both Christian.
[00:02:40] Preston Meyer: Well, and they're not like just Christian. We're looking at Catholics versus the Protestants, which are mostly Anglicans. There's a few other groups thrown in there too, but mostly Anglicans, the Church of England or the Anglican Church of Ireland, I guess would be more accurate. And like the Anglican Church is basically basically Catholic light. If you look back in history, they're like...
[00:03:11] Katie Dooley: As far as Protestantism goes. Yeah, it's a pretty let's say traditional. It's probably not the best word. Traditional Protestantism.
[00:03:22] Preston Meyer: It's only a couple of steps away from the good old imperial religious tradition of Christianity, because it's just like the king wanted to start his own thing, but didn't come up with a whole bunch of new stuff. It's just like, I want to be able to divorce my wife. And other than that, I like Catholic doctrine, and things did slowly evolve a little bit. They're not exactly Catholic light anymore, but it's not a big step.
[00:03:52] Katie Dooley: Oh, the singsong. Singsongy voice is really, um, so why don't we run through what the differences are between Catholicism and Protestantism? Not Jesus. That's not a difference.
[00:04:06] Preston Meyer: So Catholicism isn't one monolithic thing. You've got a handful of of subsets. You've got the Roman Catholic tradition, which actually, over the course of history isn't strictly Roman either. There was a time where it was almost dead everywhere except for a couple of little places, one of them being the British Isles, which I thought was an interesting thing to learn. Um, but you've also got Ukrainian, Catholic and those groups that you would expect to be Orthodox with Catholic Orthodox split about a thousand years ago. But they aren't Orthodox, they're Catholic. They're part of the Catholic communion. Kind of funky. Protestantism a lot more broad. It's basically anybody who said, hey, this Catholic thing isn't quite where we want to be, so we're going to protest that make some changes become our own...
[00:05:05] Katie Dooley: Protestantism.
[00:05:07] Preston Meyer: Exactly. I'm glad you picked up on that.
[00:05:11] Katie Dooley: Thank you. I it didn't come out very good, but I think everyone got the point.
[00:05:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And of course, you've got a really good bush of what Protestantism is. You've got Episcopalian where that the idea is that there's a bishop at the head of the church versus Presbyterian, where you've got a council of elders as the head of the church. And of course, all of this subdivides even crazier.
[00:05:46] Katie Dooley: Baptists, anabaptists, evangelicals. Those all fall under the Protestant.
[00:05:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's there's very few churches that can't be classified as Protestant or a lot of, I'm going to say, the imperial tradition, Christians, where you can safely lump together the Catholic and the Orthodox, who are so different in a lot of ways, too, that they definitely deserve their separate labels, even though neither of them really deserves the exact label they have taken upon themselves.
[00:06:24] Katie Dooley: That's a different episode from the sounds of it. But. So, I mean, Protestantism started with the Reformation and Martin Luther.
[00:06:34] Preston Meyer: Pretty much.
[00:06:35] Katie Dooley: Who was a German guy who didn't like what the church was doing. As Preston mentioned, we have this little bush, a little bush. It's a big bush.
[00:06:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's a large, diverse bush.
[00:06:47] Katie Dooley: Hundreds of Hundreds of denominations. But the biggest difference is, especially at the time of the Reformation, was getting English or local language Bibles and services. The Catholic Church at the time only had Latin.
[00:07:02] Preston Meyer: Well, the Catholic Church was killing people to prevent the publication of the Bible in any language to the common masses, and especially in any language other than Latin.
[00:07:14] Katie Dooley: Now, my religious studies professor said that it got so bad that, like, priests didn't even know Latin. They just like stand up there and be like fettuccine bikini marscapone. And nobody knew, including the priest. Because...
[00:07:32] Preston Meyer: That's embarrassing.
[00:07:33] Katie Dooley: And I mean, it's a good argument for reformation if no one knows what you're saying, no one's reaping any benefit from it.
[00:07:38] Preston Meyer: Right? Which is why the Second Vatican Council, only like 60 years ago, helped introduce a little bit more of the the common everyday language of the people. That was a good move.
[00:07:53] Katie Dooley: Yes, it was because everyone was falling asleep or going next door to the Anglican church.
[00:07:58] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I it was funny because when I would tell people what I was studying in school and you need a language credit to get your Bachelor of Arts, it's like "you're studying Latin?" No, totally without any value in my field of study. Because I was basically a biblical studies was part of my thing. It was also my profession before school. So Greek was useful. Hebrew was useful. I studied those in university. Latin got no use for me.
[00:08:32] Katie Dooley: File it under G
[00:08:32] Preston Meyer: Yeah, even. Well, that tells you a little bit about how I connected to the the ritual tradition of the Catholic Church. One visit, at least using Latin anyway.
[00:08:51] Katie Dooley: A couple other big differences are clergyman in Catholicism have, I guess, more authority. They are believed to have God's authority over parishioners or congregants. And you have to be a man and you have to be celibate in Catholicism.
[00:09:08] Preston Meyer: Yeah, mostly there's exceptions to that, too. The Ukrainian Catholic Church is actually very comfortable with having their priests be married and some other places. If you're previously married before you get ordained, or if you've been an Anglican minister, for example, can become a Catholic priest and remain married. It's funky. It's weird.
[00:09:35] Katie Dooley: Very few exceptions to the rule.
[00:09:38] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but there are exceptions.
[00:09:39] Katie Dooley: Yes. And then there's that documentary where they show a bunch of priests having gay sex.
[00:09:46] Preston Meyer: That sounds a lot more like a porno not a documentary.
[00:09:51] Katie Dooley: There's I... Well, maybe we'll do a movie night. Um, no, it was, um. It was. I forget what it was called Inside the Vatican or the Vatican Scandals. And like, a reporter, like, went clubbing with a bunch of priests. And then he went home with one of the priests, and.
[00:10:10] Preston Meyer: Lucky him, I guess.
[00:10:12] Katie Dooley: Good for him. Um, but that would. That's not an exception to the rule. That's breaking the rule. Anyway, I digress. And then, then in Protestantism, you can be a woman, and it's like much more casual, like it's just a vocation as opposed to something divinely bestowed upon you.
[00:10:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:10:34] Katie Dooley: And then we've talked about lots in the past, Catholics venerating.
[00:10:40] Preston Meyer: Saints!
[00:10:42] Katie Dooley: Or things related to saints.
[00:10:44] Preston Meyer: Relics! Oh man, we had some fun talking about relics a couple weeks ago.
[00:10:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah, whereas there's basically none of that in Protestantism.
[00:10:54] Preston Meyer: Yeah, like there's there's a little bit of the saints business and relics in, in the older. Yeah. Like the Church of England, the Lutheran church, they, they do pay attention to saints. Relics are still kind of cool to them. I mean, let's be real, people who aren't Christian find Christian relics to be at least a little bit cool. Sometimes.
[00:11:20] Katie Dooley: I'd see the Shroud of Turin if I didn't have to see it with all the pilgrims.
[00:11:24] Preston Meyer: Sure. But I mean, with how infrequently that's public...
[00:11:29] Katie Dooley: That... My wish of not seeing it without the pilgrims will never happen. I'll have to elbow my way in there. So those are in a very short nutshell. Small nutshell.
[00:11:43] Preston Meyer: Some of the important differences.
[00:11:45] Katie Dooley: But other than that, they both believe in Jesus and the Trinity and Adam and Hell, but for different reasons.
[00:11:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah, the Bible is still hugely important to their tradition. They're very close cousins, only recently separated like 500 years or so.
[00:12:07] Katie Dooley: That's pretty recent. That's pretty recent...
[00:12:08] Preston Meyer: For a religion.
[00:12:11] Katie Dooley: So this is not a framework for the conflict in Ireland, which has been going on for a long ass time I mean almost.
[00:12:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. About 400 years. Yeah, kind of crazy. It's been that long. And maybe this peace is actually going to finally settle. Maybe we'll see.
[00:12:37] Katie Dooley: We have our final thoughts on that.
[00:12:40] Preston Meyer: So about 400 years ago, there was this pretty decent relationship, I guess, kind of between Ireland and the United Kingdom of England and Scotland. And when land would default to the King because there was no heirs to take over the land, then the king would be like, all right, let's, uh, let's go send some Scottish people and a handful of English to go and populate this land. Not that Ireland had any population problems. The King was being a bit of a dick.
[00:13:21] Katie Dooley: It's called nepotism.
[00:13:22] Preston Meyer: Sure. I mean, they were colonizing Canada and, well, basically all of the Americas at this point, all of Europe was colonizing all of the Americas, way more land. Ireland, pretty small spot of land, relatively speaking, but it's closer, so it's more convenient. Not a good reason, but they called these people planters. They would go and plant the Irish lands that had defaulted to the Crown. And naturally, the native Irish folk didn't really like this passive aggressive colonization is what it was. And this is basically the seeds of all of the troubles... Is the king is being a dick, we need this to stop.
[00:14:14] Katie Dooley: Yes. So the native Irish. So at this point in history, they're all still one country.
[00:14:22] Preston Meyer: Yes.
[00:14:23] Katie Dooley: The native Irish to the island of Ireland are predominantly Catholic. And the people the king is planting are Protestant.
[00:14:32] Preston Meyer: Well, because if you're faithful to the to the king at all, you'll be in his church.
[00:14:38] Katie Dooley: Right? And the king's not gonna... Yeah, exactly. Especially this is at a time when, like, we're burning heretics still. So the king is not going to plant someone that is Catholic.
[00:14:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah, he's going to show favour to the people who are faithful to him. Yes. Which is not great when he also really just wants to have vice grip control over all of the land in his power, which yeah, no good.
[00:15:12] Katie Dooley: If only they knew what this would cause.
[00:15:14] Preston Meyer: Right? It's ridiculous.
[00:15:17] Katie Dooley: So starting in the mid 1600s, the Catholic Irish decided to fight against their new neighbors and their Protestant king. But the Protestants won a lot.
[00:15:30] Preston Meyer: Every single war, every time the Protestants won because they had the British Empire backing them up instead of just the local Irish fighters.
[00:15:43] Katie Dooley: And some sheep. I can say that as an Irish person.
[00:15:48] Preston Meyer: Sheep aren't great fighters there's a reason they fill the role they do in our society.
[00:15:52] Katie Dooley: I mean, that's what I'm. That's what I'm saying, preston.
[00:15:54] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:15:57] Katie Dooley: And as with any war, the Crown would penalize anybody who didn't conform to the Anglican Church of Ireland afterwards.
[00:16:07] Preston Meyer: Yeah, they had some pretty terrible laws put in place. And even though the laws ended up being worded as we will penalize the Catholics, the reason for that, as I've gone and studied into this, is because you can't just say, oh, Irish nationalists can't can do this and that, because you can't legally define that in the time. It doesn't work. But it's so much easier to go, oh, you're on this list of people who belong to this parish. All right. Now, you can't own land anymore. Which really sucks.
[00:16:51] Katie Dooley: Yes. This is the start of a whole bunch of sectarianism.
[00:16:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, non-Anglicans. So not just Catholics, but basically anybody who didn't have an Anglican baptismal certificate was forbidden from sending their children abroad for school, which would have been really nice. Say, oh, yeah, our family is being oppressed because of what we believe. We believe in Irish nationalism, that we want to be our own people and we happen to be Catholic. It would be really nice to kind of to become a refugee, head off to Europe somewhere. France is friendly right now. Kind of. Sometimes.
[00:17:34] Katie Dooley: Things flip-flop for a really long time.
[00:17:36] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, it would be nice to head off to Europe. And King says no, no, no. You are our subjects, and you will be punished. No sending children abroad for school. The Catholic clergy was actually banished from Ireland for a little while. Not a really long time, but for a little while. So I think it was about 30 years or something. Something like that. In 1704, that idea was replaced with a strict probation for priests. All the Catholic priests had to be examined on a pretty regular basis, and they're constantly watched. It was terrible. Non-anglicans were forced to subdivide their property between their heirs instead of just giving it to it to the oldest son.
[00:18:28] Katie Dooley: Therefore losing power because lots of land equals lots of power.
[00:18:32] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Now, I... it sounds a little bit weird because today this is generally speaking, you give out your stuff to all your son, all your children, more or less evenly. Unless you happen to have a large land holding. That would obviously have to go to one person. That practice was outright forbidden for non-Anglicans. Yeah. Losing power, deliberately undermining the whole Irish nation. And of course this made it a lot easier for land to default back to the crown because very often people would die without heirs if you subdivided it. That really raises your probability of this happening. Really crappy.
[00:19:20] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah it is.
[00:19:22] Preston Meyer: And of course, Catholics were barred from voting in parliamentary elections for a long time.
[00:19:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Like centuries.
[00:19:28] Preston Meyer: This is a big deal that lasted. It's weird how favorably people look at the English system when it was deeply messed up for a long time.
[00:19:41] Katie Dooley: We'll get into, you know, more violence. And, you know, no one is innocent in this conflict. But there were definitely things put in place to make it worse for certain people.
[00:19:57] Preston Meyer: Yes. For sure. Yeah, so the king claimed ultimate authority, of course, being the head of the church, basically claiming divine authority, which, as we've seen in the Anglican tradition, especially with King James a little bit later on, if you don't conform to exactly what the King wants. You can be burned as a witch. This is pretty gross.
[00:20:29] Katie Dooley: He burned a lot of people.
[00:20:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah, and not only for being witches, they would come up with all kinds of reasons,
[00:20:36] Katie Dooley: All kinds of crazy things to burn you but...
[00:20:39] Preston Meyer: Yeah, and the king just exercised more and more authority as time went over. I'm feeling pretty good about the Queen right now, relatively speaking. There's some grossness in that family, but relatively speaking, things are a lot better off.
[00:20:56] Katie Dooley: Yes, she's definitely the most normal that we've probably had. Maybe her dad was pretty normal, but his dad wasn't.
[00:21:09] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:21:13] Katie Dooley: So fast forward, but not very far to 1690 and the Battle of the Boyne. This is wild.
[00:21:25] Preston Meyer: So the Boyne is a river in Ireland. And so the battle of the Boyne was one of many battles of the Williamite War, but fought on the basically on the river banks.
[00:21:38] Katie Dooley: Yep. I've been there.
[00:21:40] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah. Nice.
[00:21:42] Katie Dooley: It is. It was a battle. Okay, guys, stay with me. It was a battle between a Catholic king and a Protestant king. One was Dutch. One was English. In Ireland. Got that?
[00:21:58] Preston Meyer: It's weird.
[00:21:59] Katie Dooley: It's very weird.
[00:22:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah. William of Orange, the Dutch one.
[00:22:02] Katie Dooley: The Dutch one. So they're fighting for the English crown in Ireland. And like, that's why everyone hates each other to this day. They were fighting for the English crown on Irish land. And everyone hates each other to this day.
[00:22:18] Preston Meyer: What a bunch of dicks.
[00:22:20] Katie Dooley: That's like. That's like me punching out Preston on your property and you fighting with your family for the rest of your life. Because I punched Preston on your property.
[00:22:34] Preston Meyer: I mean, it is more than that.
[00:22:36] Katie Dooley: I know, but, like...
[00:22:37] Preston Meyer: We've we've laid a solid foundation already. But this did not make things better.
[00:22:43] Katie Dooley: No. And it's just. What? It doesn't make things better. You're right. But it's like the Protestants still celebrate the victory today. And I'm like. But you didn't do anything.
[00:22:54] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:22:54] Katie Dooley: Like Protestant Irish because it was an English battle.
[00:22:57] Preston Meyer: Well, and it's it's kind of funny that the Protestants won this small battle because it was relatively small. And the day before, the Protestants had actually lost a huge naval battle on the other side of England, but in the time that has passed since then, a good three hundred years. The naval battle loss has really basically counted for nothing. And this Battle of the Boyne has just contributed to more problems.
[00:23:38] Katie Dooley: So, as Preston said, William was the Dutch king. He was William of Orange, which is why the color of the Netherlands is orange. And it's also why Protestants around the world represent themselves with orange. And so the orange and the green and the Irish flag is because of this king. He was also the King of England at the time, and the battle was King James the Second, a Catholic king. He was trying to win back the throne from William and bring Catholicism back to the United Kingdom and Ireland.
[00:24:14] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's so weird to see people fighting over the throne because for so long in our history recently speaking, there hasn't been fights for the crown because honestly, there's pretty limited power in the crown anyway. And you can be rich and be a prince and everything's fine.
[00:24:35] Katie Dooley: We can thank the Medici for that.
[00:24:37] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:24:37] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So this is where the Irish Catholic population gets invested because if James won, it would mean an end to the sectarian abuse and rules that they've lived with at this point for about 80/90 years.
[00:24:55] Preston Meyer: Yeah. What a mess. Restoring peace would have been nice, but it didn't work out.
[00:25:02] Katie Dooley: I mean, we can what if. Would it have restored peace? It just would have made the Irish Catholics happy. But the Irish Protestants unhappy.
[00:25:12] Preston Meyer: At this point in history, it would have been easy enough to deport the Protestants.
[00:25:18] Katie Dooley: Or burn them, yes.
[00:25:19] Preston Meyer: Right, but it would have been easy enough to do a good old Saint Patrick and just get rid of the people that aren't going to...
[00:25:29] Katie Dooley: Get rid. Wink, wink. I'm kidding. Don't burn someone.
[00:25:34] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:25:34] Katie Dooley: I don't condone that.
[00:25:35] Preston Meyer: No, but based on what was going on at the time, it's. That would have been in character. Anyway, that would have been terrible. Okay.
[00:25:49] Katie Dooley: Unfortunately.
[00:25:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Unfortunately for the Catholics, William won the battle and retained his control of a very Protestant United Kingdom and Ireland. Things haven't... Things go a long time before they get better.
[00:26:06] Katie Dooley: Now, without getting too historical, this is a religion podcast, and this could be could be a whole history episode. But in the early 1920s, Ireland divided into two. So at this point, Ireland and United Kingdom are one country where the Isle of Ireland being predominantly Catholic and the rest being predominantly Protestant. But there are a lot of Protestants in Northern Ireland, which is where we see the current divide between Great Britain and Ireland on the island.
[00:26:38] Preston Meyer: Yeah, a handful of counties that were mostly Protestant basically got fenced off from the rest.
[00:26:44] Katie Dooley: Yes. The 12th. This is the what is the day is called the 12th.
[00:26:51] Preston Meyer: The 12th of July.
[00:26:52] Katie Dooley: It's the 12th of July is a day that commemorates the battle of the Boyne to this day, 200 years later. The Protestants are still celebrating.
[00:27:04] Preston Meyer: The Protestants are still being dicks about it.
[00:27:07] Katie Dooley: So this is. This is an interesting issue. It's an incredibly controversial celebration because they will hold orange marches. That's what they're called. And it basically rubs in the face of the Catholics and the Protestants. And the orange is typically held by an orange order or a chapter of an Orange Order, which is a Protestant fraternity. They generally, especially in more recent years, try to stick to Protestant neighborhoods. But some marches are purposely antagonistic and walk through Catholic neighborhoods.
[00:27:44] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it's been happening a lot less in the last, I say ten years. Realistically, it should have been happening a lot less 20 years ago when the Troubles officially, legally speaking, ended. But mostly the last ten years have been nicer.
[00:28:03] Katie Dooley: So in 2013, I was in Northern Ireland. I left like two days before July 12th. It was the craziest thing I have ever seen in my life. Yeah?
[00:28:18] Preston Meyer: It was the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life.
[00:28:22] Katie Dooley: And why is that? So I got off a train in Belfast. As a Canadian, I don't know. Disclaimer as a Canadian atheist, like I wasn't concerned. I can see why if you are a Catholic Irish person, you would be. But I ended up in a Protestant neighborhood and they had painted the sidewalks like the the curb. So you know how sidewalks have the lines in them for expansion and contraction. So every chunk was painted red, white or blue. They went all down the curbs. And then there were Union Jacks between all the houses and Union Jacks on all the doors. It was like you knew immediately where you were. And then I'll post a picture in the Discord. I only saw a small one, but they also light massive bonfires, and I have a picture of myself by one and their pallets. And it was taller than me. It was easily 15ft tall, but there are ones that are like stories tall.
[00:29:27] Preston Meyer: That's alarming.
[00:29:27] Katie Dooley: And it was like... And the best way I can describe it is like a Best Buy parking lot is where this was. It was like in the middle of Belfast city, like, imagine going to the local shopping center and just having a 15-foot pallet that they're going to burn. It was yeah, and this is 2013. So not even ten years ago. So yeah, that's what they do. And you know again hopefully they're sticking to Protestant or Unionist... These they're not quite interchangeable... Neighbourhoods, but I think it we'll get into this conversation. But like it means people can't let it go.
[00:30:11] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:30:12] Katie Dooley: And if they can't let it go then they're going to be Catholics or Republicans that can't let it go either because it makes them angry.
[00:30:12] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Uh, what a mess.
[00:30:25] Katie Dooley: Also, just a fun fact for your dinner conversation. Police in the United Kingdom do not carry guns except in Northern Ireland.
[00:30:35] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that would make sense. Northern Ireland is the the home of the troubles.
[00:30:41] Katie Dooley: Oh, it's it's super interesting, mildly frightening.
[00:30:47] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:30:49] Katie Dooley: I'll leave it at that. I'll interject more stories as we go.
[00:30:52] Preston Meyer: All right.
[00:30:54] Katie Dooley: So, yes, they still to summarize: they still celebrate the winning of the Battle of the Boyne today. Sometimes by being dicks.
[00:31:04] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:31:05] Katie Dooley: So and actually that's quickly I'll just say many unionists believe it's their historical right to celebrate.
[00:31:05] Preston Meyer: Right. Because they won the war. Gross.
[00:31:17] Katie Dooley: I mean, is it grosser than Canada Day or...
[00:31:22] Preston Meyer: Canada Day having organized a nation is, I guess, the real celebration?
[00:31:31] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we're not celebrating specifically a massacre.
[00:31:34] Preston Meyer: Right now if we were celebrating the dates where treaties were forcibly signed.
[00:31:41] Katie Dooley: The 60s Scoop. Yeah,
[00:31:42] Preston Meyer: Sure. There's an awful lot of things that are not celebrated that are part of Canada's history.
[00:31:51] Katie Dooley: Fair.
[00:31:51] Preston Meyer: At least not celebrated among people that I care for. Anyway, in 1798, there was an Irish rebellion. Why is this news? Because it failed. It was one of many disastrous attempts to try and free Ireland from the Empire. Big bummer. Lots of people died. But the Irish Rebellion of 1798 was the big one, because obviously there have been lots of attempts before and since. Yeah. Politics, religion and economics were all super intertwined and more or less stayed that way ever since.
[00:32:39] Katie Dooley: To literally present day.
[00:32:40] Preston Meyer: Yeah. What a mess.
[00:32:45] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So basically, even 100 years later, after the battle of the Boyne, they're still trying to get independence.
[00:32:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah. There came to be an interesting nickname thrown up for the Republicans. And the name is Fenian, which when I initially found it, they didn't explain where this name comes from or anything. I had to go digging. But basically it's connected to the fictional hero Finn McCool and his legendary Irish warriors. Fenian is basically a really shortened form of Fianna Éireann I don't..
[00:33:25] Katie Dooley: Éireann
[00:33:25] Preston Meyer: Sure that's there's too many letters there for that to just be Éireann
[00:33:32] Katie Dooley: The Irish are very good at that.
[00:33:34] Preston Meyer: Okay. Well thank you. The Fianna Éireann, uh. So Fenians, basically Finn's soldiers or Finn's Irishmen,
[00:33:44] Katie Dooley: Dumbledore's Army.
[00:33:45] Preston Meyer: Kinda, yeah and the the name Fenian is used as a slur against pretty much anybody who is Irish. Traditionally Irish by anybody who is a fierce loyalist to the Crown.
[00:34:03] Katie Dooley: So we're going to again, because this is not a history podcast. We're going to fast forward about 120 more years to when Ireland becomes its own country in 1922. And this is the geography we have today, where Ireland is a country. There's the Isle of Ireland, and part of that island belongs to United Kingdom in the form of Northern Ireland.
[00:34:28] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Ireland has an unfavorable hat.
[00:34:35] Katie Dooley: Yes. So, Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom. Bojo's their prime minister. They use the pound. They use kilometers. Whereas when you cross the border, they use miles, they use the euro and they have their own president.
[00:34:53] Preston Meyer: They use miles?
[00:34:54] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:34:55] Preston Meyer: What the hell is wrong with this country?
[00:34:57] Katie Dooley: I, I forget which, but the signs change. I'm pretty sure England uses kilometers because we use kilometers?
[00:35:03] Preston Meyer: They should all use kilometers. Everyone in Europe should be using the European standard. That's just weird.
[00:35:09] Katie Dooley: I'm pretty sure anyway. But yes, there's all these differences. There is no like customs border. You can just drive over the border. They don't monitor that. But everything changes. So if you're going from, you know, Dublin to Belfast, you need to change your currency, but no one's going to stop you.
[00:35:26] Preston Meyer: Right. Uh, if you're Northern Irish, you can actually get an Irish passport as well. If you really want to cross the border permanently.
[00:35:37] Katie Dooley: Totally. And you can work. They have commuter trains between Belfast and Dublin, so you can live in Dublin and work in Belfast or vice versa. You can work in an entirely different country.
[00:35:46] Preston Meyer: I mean, most of the European Union's that loosey goosey too. It's kind of nice.
[00:35:50] Katie Dooley: So I will say and I don't we don't need to keep this in. I thought it was really weird because when you go from Ireland to Northern Ireland, you don't have to have your passport checked. But when I went from Northern Ireland to Scotland, both the United Kingdom, they checked my passport. I thought that was really weird.
[00:36:05] Preston Meyer: That does feel a little odd. Did you plane it or take a ferry?
[00:36:10] Katie Dooley: I took a ferry.
[00:36:11] Preston Meyer: Okay. That'd be a long ferry ride.
[00:36:14] Katie Dooley: I don't remember, but it was great. It was, uh, it was, uh, rail and sail. So you got dropped off. So I took a cab to the ferry, and then I took the ferry over to... I don't even know where it docks in Scotland. And then you got a rail pass to take you from the dock to Glasgow.
[00:36:33] Preston Meyer: That's cool.
[00:36:34] Katie Dooley: It was great.
[00:36:35] Preston Meyer: Sounds like a nice adventure.
[00:36:37] Katie Dooley: It was a nice adventure. But back to geography. So at this point they are two very separate countries. But there are some people who want it to be one country.
[00:36:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:36:53] Katie Dooley: On both sides, funnily enough.
[00:36:58] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I mean, it's so much easier when there's not two Ireland's problem is there's a lot of strong feelings...
[00:37:06] Katie Dooley: On which way to go. Enter the IRA.
[00:37:12] Preston Meyer: But not the Internal Revenue Agency but the Irish Republican Army.
[00:37:19] Katie Dooley: And it basically what it sounds like it was a paramilitary group, is a paramilitary group that wanted to unite the Isle of Ireland to the Republic, which would be "predominantly" Catholic. But now we're entering the 1960s and things get way more complicated.
[00:37:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Over the course of the 40 years between the foundation of an independent Republic of Republic of Ireland and the really terrible time when the Troubles really pick up. The IRA actually splits up into a few different groups, and going digging into this was tricky. It's way more complicated than even Wikipedia is really on top of, but it does a really good job of summarizing more or less the big groups, the big players. So that's kind of cool. But the provisional IRA is the the big scary militant group.
[00:38:24] Katie Dooley: The one that will blow up your car.
[00:38:27] Preston Meyer: Yeah. What a mess.
[00:38:29] Katie Dooley: Yes. And then there's also Sinn Fein, which is the political arm. Sure. It still exists today. And they again, I mean, they have the same goal, but they do it through, you know, Parliament and voting instead of car bombs and kneeling cappings.
[00:38:29] Preston Meyer: It's pretty easy to pick a favorite. Yeah, but generally there's one goal unite all of Ireland in, at least for the IRA, a socialist republic. It's all right. I mean, so far it's easy enough to be on board, or at least to accept the idea.
[00:39:08] Katie Dooley: Yeah. At this point, there's still, you know, a lot of have and have nots between Catholic and Protestant or Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods. You know, there's until Sinn Fein shows up, there's no representation in Parliament for Ireland. There's still a lot of problems and it escalates to violence. Fun fact not so fun fact the IRA participate a lot in guerrilla warfare. Like you said, car bombs were a popular thing. Um, the Taliban learned a lot from the IRA.
[00:39:46] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Honestly, the CIA, the real CIA that you're aware of in the United States. And this IRA, the two biggest influences on the Taliban. It's kind of gross. Luckily, the IRA did actually officially disband in 2005 after a cease fire of, like, eight years.
[00:40:11] Katie Dooley: That would be the Good Friday Agreement. I believe you're referring. Yeah. Did you know that Brexit actually breaks the Good Friday Agreement and they're quite concerned about the ramifications?
[00:40:25] Preston Meyer: I... There's so much that I don't know about Brexit. All I know is it has been terribly mismanaged in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons.
[00:40:37] Katie Dooley: But yeah, it breaks the Good Friday Agreement, which is the ceasefire essentially with the IRA and everyone else.
[00:40:45] Preston Meyer: Well. That's exciting.
[00:40:49] Katie Dooley: A key figure of the IRA. And this is in the late 70s or early 80s, was Bobby Sands.
[00:40:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:40:57] Katie Dooley: I didn't know his real name.
[00:40:59] Preston Meyer: His. Well, his Irish name is Roibeard O'Shaughnessy,
[00:41:05] Katie Dooley: Not Bobby Sands.
[00:41:07] Preston Meyer: And, like, it's not like he came up with this new name, Bobby Sands. His parents were Sands as well. They just. Apparently there was a need to have a very different English name. Yeah. But, yeah. Roibeard O'Shaughnessy.
[00:41:24] Katie Dooley: So he was a member of the provisional IRA, and he was connected to bombings, uh, to a bombing of a furniture company in Dunmurry in 1976. And he was arrested after a gunfight with police.
[00:41:39] Preston Meyer: Makes sense. What's weird to me is that the charge that he was arrested for was just having a gun?
[00:41:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah, they did a lot of that too. So he was sent to Maze Prison, also called H block, uh, with a whole bunch of other IRA members and everything from, like, silly, I won't say possession of firearms, silly, but minor to murder, IRA members. And he and a bunch of other people went on a hunger strike, and he eventually died of hunger after 66 days. And.
[00:42:20] Preston Meyer: But you're missing the best part of... During this hunger strike. He was a member of parliament.
[00:42:28] Katie Dooley: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yes, he was elected to Parliament while he was in prison.
[00:42:34] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:42:34] Katie Dooley: And then he went on hunger strike.
[00:42:38] Preston Meyer: Uh, yeah. Margaret Thatcher was not a fan. But I mean, they they act, they both did their job and Margaret Thatcher pulled no punches when it was time to celebrate his death.
[00:42:54] Katie Dooley: And the interesting thing about his this is interesting, this martyrdom and causes this all becomes very interesting. So Bobby Sands died again. He was in jail. He was blown up things so arguably not a good person. And again, there were other hunger strikers who died, who had committed murder the day Bobby Sands died, not that I want to dox us, but he was on the front page of our local newspaper here in Canada. He made front pages worldwide, and most people were like, "what the fuck? How could you let him die, you monsters!"
[00:43:34] Preston Meyer: Force feeding somebody doesn't count as not torture. So there's that.
[00:43:41] Katie Dooley: I mean, they could have given... So he was on hunger strike because he did have demands that he wanted met and were not met, so he died.
[00:43:49] Preston Meyer: You're choosing not to eat like it's like a child throwing a fit, except for a really good reason. It's frustrating and it sucks.
[00:44:00] Katie Dooley: So this led to IRA recruitment going up.
[00:44:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I went looking into his story a little bit more. Like that's that's the really cool part of his story action-wise if you want to make a movie. But there's some parts of his story that are actually they make sense on why he would be doing what he's doing. He went to go get a job down south, and he I think it was train cars. I'm going for memory now, building things because he wanted to have a real job, make something good of himself. And every day he showed up. Sorry. He showed up for work regularly for a while. And then one day, all the guys are like. We don't want none of you stinking Fenians around here. If you come back, we'll kill you. So all of a sudden, these unionists become the villain in his life. A couple years later, they attack his parents in their home. He has a reason to become an extremist. So it's. There's an awful lot of violence on both sides of this. It's super gross.
[00:45:16] Katie Dooley: Oh absolutely yeah. I was talking to an Irish friend, and he. He said that. I mean, I don't think there was any love lost for Margaret Thatcher, but one of the problems is, while Bobby Sands was dying in prison, again by choice as Preston said, Margaret Thatcher's son went missing and it was like would, like anything they could do to find him. And, you know, he was like but then she let 13 people sons die in prison.
[00:45:48] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it sucks.
[00:45:51] Katie Dooley: And it's hard and it's complicated and. Yeah, but he, Bobby Sands got a lot of sympathy for the Republican cause worldwide. Yeah. Very bad luck for the British government.
[00:46:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So a little bit before that, this was this idea that was launched. It was Operation Banner. I love this name because of my own personal biases. And I'm going to tell you my version of why this is named Operation Banner instead of the true version.
[00:46:27] Katie Dooley: And then will you tell us the true version?
[00:46:29] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:46:30] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:46:32] Preston Meyer: So the British armed forces kept the peace in Northern Ireland, kept the peace in air quotes because they were incredibly violent at the slightest provocation. It was a mess, not always, but really often. And the whole goal was to keep the Green monster the Catholics, from causing too much damage and protect the mild-mannered Bruce Banner of the civilized Protestant population.
[00:47:06] Katie Dooley: I like it because it's green,
[00:47:08] Preston Meyer: Right? Yeah. So Operation Banner was destroy the green Hulk, protect Bruce Banner. So that's not where the name comes from. I actually couldn't find where the name comes from. If I had to guess, it would be. Let's fly the banner of the Union.
[00:47:31] Katie Dooley: I like Bruce Banner better.
[00:47:32] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:47:35] Katie Dooley: One of the events that happened, speaking of keeping the peace during Operation Banner was Bloody Sunday.
[00:47:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So Ireland has more than one Bloody Sunday. There's three of them within 100 years and they're all connected to the same conflict.
[00:47:54] Katie Dooley: This one is the most recent?
[00:47:55] Preston Meyer: Yes.
[00:47:57] Katie Dooley: Um, yeah. It's terrible. It happened on January 30th, 1972, on a Sunday in Derry/Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
[00:48:11] Preston Meyer: Is it known by both names?
[00:48:12] Katie Dooley: It's okay. I'll have a digression. So Derry is the Catholic name and Londonderry is the Protestant name so...
[00:48:20] Preston Meyer: That makes sense.
[00:48:21] Katie Dooley: Most people call it Derry/Londonderry to, like, not stir any shit up. You'll know immediately if someone's Catholic or Protestant based off of what they call it. They also call it. So we call this punctuation a slash in North America, they call it a stroke. So a lot of people call it Stroke City too.
[00:48:39] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:48:40] Katie Dooley: Instead Derry/Londonderry. So that's why I'm saying Derry/Londonderry.
[00:48:43] Preston Meyer: Stroke City sounds like a name you would give to a geriatric facility.
[00:48:48] Katie Dooley: I know that's why I said they call it a stroke over there, we call it a slash over here. Slash city doesn't sound much better.
[00:48:54] Katie Dooley: No, that's Murderville,
[00:48:56] Preston Meyer: That's Murdersville. Um, so yes, it happened in Derry Londonderry, Northern Ireland, and for literally decades it was like a who shot first scenario. 26 civilians were killed by British forces, and the British forces claimed that they had rocks and debris thrown at them, which instigated the shooting. These protesters were violent, and the Catholic Derry marchers always maintained that the British forces shot unprovoked. Preston, it was in 2010 that the report of the investigation, nearly 40 years later. Exactly, yeah, nearly 40 years later, came out saying that the British forces were attacked unprovoked. And I forget which Prime Minister had to apologize, but he did.
[00:49:48] Katie Dooley: The British forces attacked unprovoked.
[00:49:51] Preston Meyer: Yes.
[00:49:51] Katie Dooley: Yeah. That sucks. We've seen who the Prime Minister was at the time, but it's he he did issue an apology in the city.
[00:50:01] Preston Meyer: Right. We've seen a lot of that here. Just only two years ago with a lot of the Black Lives Matters protests. That's... We see an awful lot of people get real gun happy when given the opportunity.
[00:50:18] Katie Dooley: And this is where, like, you know, we talk about the Battle of Boyne 300 years ago. This is all still very just under the under the surface, especially if you're from Derry or Belfast.
[00:50:30] Preston Meyer: Well, if you live there, you're going to be constantly reminded of it.
[00:50:33] Katie Dooley: So I did a tour in Derry. It's called a Bogside tour. This is where a lot of the Bogside is a neighborhood where a lot of the conflict happened. And my tour guide was the son of someone who was killed on Bloody Sunday.
[00:50:51] Preston Meyer: Dang.
[00:50:52] Katie Dooley: So, like, it's still... You think he liked the British and the unionists?
[00:50:58] Preston Meyer: The wounds are too fresh.
[00:50:59] Katie Dooley: Right? He grew up without a father. Like we go this... You know, when you and I go it's 300 years ago.
[00:51:07] Preston Meyer: It's not.
[00:51:08] Katie Dooley: It's not.
[00:51:09] Preston Meyer: Yeah. That sucks.
[00:51:11] Katie Dooley: But we have a IRA murder that was quite prominent, too, during this time. I guess I'm telling that story as well,
[00:51:21] Preston Meyer: I guess.
[00:51:21] Katie Dooley: So if you're a fan of the royal family. William and Kate, then you probably already know that Lord Mountbatten, so this is Prince Philip's father, Prince Charles's grandfather was assassinated by the IRA in 1978. The statement released by the IRA, they owned it. They were happy to kill someone from the royal family. It does point out the continued sectarianism in the country. Not that this justifies the murder, but the statement they released says the IRA claimed responsibility for the execution of Lord Louis Mountbatten. This operation is one of the discriminate ways we can bring attention of the English people, the continuing occupation of our country. The death of Mountbatten and the tributes paid to him will be seen in sharp contrast to the apathy of the British government and the English people, to the deaths of over 300 British soldiers and the deaths of Irish men, women and children at the hands of their forces. So yeah, it got a lot of media attention because it was Lord Mountbatten,
[00:52:28] Preston Meyer: Kind of a big deal.
[00:52:29] Katie Dooley: And it was sad. Six years prior, 26 people were killed and no one would take ownership of it. Eh!
[00:52:38] Preston Meyer: Right. Yeah. So that's one of the things that I like about the IRA is that when they do a thing, they take ownership of it. There was an attempt that I thought was kind of interesting to frame the IRA. That really got my attention. Actually, my wife pointed it out to me and said, you need to include this.
[00:53:02] Katie Dooley: I've never even heard of this. And I think I'm like, I mean, I'm far from an expert, but I have read quite a bit.
[00:53:07] Preston Meyer: Right. So arguably the biggest band in the country, the Miami Showband, was touring all over the place until 1975, when about half the band was murdered.
[00:53:22] Katie Dooley: Oops.
[00:53:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah. They were driving back home to Dublin in their band van after a show in Banbridge in Northern Ireland, and they were stopped by a bunch of guys in British Army uniforms. They're like, well, we're going to do as we're told. We're going to play this safe, we're going to get home, everything's going to be fine. Turns out they weren't just British Army, they were part of the Ulster Loyalist Army, and they were here to do some damage. So they lined up the band on the side of the road. They had a couple of guys take a big old bomb, put it in the van, and they were going to execute the whole band. Bomb went off as they were putting it in the van, instead of at the border crossing, where they were planning to have it go off, and only three of the band members were actually killed. The other two managed to survive the wounds in all of this confusion. Huge mess, disaster, because the loyalists just fumbled everything.
[00:54:30] Katie Dooley: They didn't have the same bombing prowess as the IRA.
[00:54:34] Preston Meyer: Right? But they really wanted it to look like an IRA attack at the border. Kind of embarrassing.
[00:54:41] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:54:42] Preston Meyer: And it actually took a long time before people could really nail down what was going on here. Who was in charge. Fingerprint evidence in the last ten years have actually identified. Yeah. No, the guy in charge of this was high up in the.
[00:55:00] Katie Dooley: Ulster loyalist. British?
[00:55:02] Preston Meyer: The British.
[00:55:03] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:55:04] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Why is the word the British Armed Forces. A director or something like that. It was crazy.
[00:55:11] Katie Dooley: That is crazy.
[00:55:12] Preston Meyer: The fact that fingerprint evidence 30 years after the fact proved helpful is really cool. Yeah, but yeah, the IRA, they take ownership, they say, what's up? None of this sneaky nonsense. When somebody doesn't take ownership in the Troubles, expect that it was loyalists.
[00:55:35] Katie Dooley: Another fun, fun? story I was told when I was in Belfast was there was a Deutsche Bank and it was robbed, I want to say, in the early 2000 by the IRA for like I was told, millions of pounds and I used to work at a bank, I was like, you should never have millions of pounds or dollars on hand. But apparently they did.
[00:55:58] Preston Meyer: Different practices. No biggie.
[00:56:00] Katie Dooley: Yeah, and no charges were laid because the cost of the money stolen was less than the ramifications of breaking the Good Friday Agreement and pressing charges against the IRA. They were like, okay, It's cheaper to just let that money go.
[00:56:19] Preston Meyer: Well, and every bank has insurance, that sucks. Huh?
[00:56:29] Katie Dooley: So Northern Ireland today, new IRA is still sporadically active, with most the most recent report reported incident being in April of 2021. About a year ago, a bomb was discovered behind a police vehicle in Northern Ireland. There were no casualties, fortunately, but it was traced back to the IRA and that was just last year. Preston is right in that these are becoming less frequent, which is good, and the IRA activity cycles with the economy. Funnily enough, when Celtic Tiger was happening, there was hardly any violence. And when the economy gets bad, it starts to bubble up again.
[00:57:13] Preston Meyer: Oh, you mean it's an economic conflict?
[00:57:16] Katie Dooley: We're gonna get into that, Preston, in a second. Let me wrap up, please. The Orange Order still exists, and...
[00:57:26] Preston Meyer: We have some here in the city here.
[00:57:29] Katie Dooley: Just interrupting me. Well, it's an international organization. The Canadian arm is the Grand Orange Lodge of Canada, and it's the Imperial Orange Council in the USA. So, yeah.
[00:57:40] Preston Meyer: So are they properly united or are they distinct but friendly to each other?
[00:57:44] Katie Dooley: Um, they all stem from the Orange Order in Ireland, so but I...
[00:57:48] Preston Meyer: But Freemasonry is like that too, where they stem from a common home and then are separate but communicate.
[00:57:56] Katie Dooley: I feel I didn't look into it, but that would be my guess. They do march and all their regular orange things so...
[00:58:04] Preston Meyer: Cool. So I don't know a lot about the Orange Order other than we're loyal Protestants.
[00:58:10] Katie Dooley: We're loyal Protestants to get old William of Orange. Now the part Preston's chomping at the bit to get to. It's is. Is this a religious conflict? Is it a socioeconomic conflict? What role does discrimination against other religions play? Does religion make it worse? Does religion make it better?
[00:58:35] Preston Meyer: It's complicated and juicy.
[00:58:37] Katie Dooley: Okay, that's a good political answer. Very good.
[00:58:41] Preston Meyer: Obviously, it's super easy to say. Obviously it's a religious deal because one side is Catholic, one side is Protestant. If it were that simple, then it could have been solved in the churches, I think? Right?
[00:58:59] Katie Dooley: Well, see, I, I see what you're saying and absolutely like you said, with Celtic Tiger, socio economic historically Catholics were have nots and Protestants were haves because they were gifted Lifted stuff from the king.
[00:59:12] Preston Meyer: Royal favour goes a long way.
[00:59:14] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. But if the people within the conflict see it as Catholic versus Protestant, then is it? You know what I mean.
[00:59:24] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:59:25] Katie Dooley: If you're raised to hate Catholics or hate Protestants, depending on the side, then you might not even see the socioeconomic issues. And therefore, do the socioeconomic issues matter unless you're an outsider trying to fix it. But if you're in it, it probably is religious conflict.
[00:59:43] Preston Meyer: So I'm going to dig into that a little bit more. When you're taught to hate somebody, you're going to be told why. When people in the South say, you got to hate anyone who is not white. There's a reason white people are better. That's obviously deeply flawed logic, but that's what they got. That's what they go with. And so when people say, hey, you need to hate the Protestants when you're living in Ireland. The reason why? Pretty easy to get on board with. They have been ruining our lives for 400 years. And unfortunately, the Protestants have a similar thing thrown at them of we hate the Catholics because they are tearing our country apart, even though that's not really the deal.
[01:00:35] Katie Dooley: It is quite easy in this conflict to be sympathetic towards the Catholics.
[01:00:40] Preston Meyer: It really is.
[01:00:41] Katie Dooley: I try not to be. I try to be neutral, but it's tough.
[01:00:45] Preston Meyer: Well, the history shows us that the Catholics are just systematically picked on. They are the victims in all of this. Not to say that they're innocent, because an awful lot of damage has been done by both sides, not by every person on both sides, but by both sides as wholes. It's a mess. And as it would be, it would be really nice and easy to say. Yeah. Religion is the problem here. But if Ireland was never Catholic, if they were just happy more Protestants, they would still be nationalists trying to protect what was theirs. Unfortunately, nationalism looks an awful lot like a religion too. And arguably by many scholars and even the subject of my last paper before I graduated. Nationalism is a religion. It's not the same sort of thing.
[01:01:54] Katie Dooley: Okay, well, then I still kind of disagree.
[01:01:57] Preston Meyer: That's fine,
[01:01:58] Katie Dooley: Because I think if the people think it's a religious conflict, then it is a religious conflict. Perception is reality. Not that there aren't socio economic and political parts moving parts to it. Does religion make it worse? You're turning a regular conflict into a holy war.
[01:02:15] Preston Meyer: Every conflict that lasted a while. Religion comes into it. Even the Cold War. Religion came into it with the good old Christian. America needs to defeat those godless communists.
[01:02:31] Katie Dooley: Godless communists!
[01:02:33] Preston Meyer: Which I mean, really weird way to spin it. But it's a great way to convince people that you're right. If you can convince people that God is on your side in a conflict, you don't have to worry about it anymore. You've got their help through to the very end, which is pretty gross. People lean on religion for utilitarian purposes that get really nasty all the time. The conflict in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion. It never had anything to do with religion, but people use religion as a great way to other the other side as a perfectly valid victim for all of the bullets. And that sucks.
[01:03:29] Katie Dooley: So you should all just become atheists! I'm kidding.
[01:03:35] Preston Meyer: Pluralism doesn't do any harm. And yet, for some reason, all of the great powers of America really lean away from that as you need to join this. Be one with us. Be just like us, or you're the bad guy. And it was the same way in Ireland, on both sides. It's been that way for most of human history.
[01:04:05] Katie Dooley: Here's another big question. Can this be solved? Will this ever end?
[01:04:12] Preston Meyer: I believe it will. I believe it can be solved. And it's a lot more complicated than just saying, oh, guys, stop being dicks to each other. It's a lot more complicated than just putting up walls in between neighborhoods like they've been doing. It's a lot more complicated than simple deportation or execution. You need to actually fix the problem, which nobody wants to do, because nobody can agree on what the problem is for some reason.
[01:04:50] Katie Dooley: Part of it. I have some ideas on how to fix it, but first I just want to say if you do want to learn more about the Troubles, there are a lot of great books and books and movies on the topic. I listed some historical fiction ones here, but there are obviously scholarly nonfiction books. Belfast by Kenneth Branagh. That was just an Oscar nominee. It was exactly about this. There's a movie called '71, which takes place in.
[01:05:17] Both Speakers: 1971.
[01:05:19] Katie Dooley: The Crying Game, Patriot Games, and Trinity are all great pieces of historical fiction.
[01:05:26] Preston Meyer: Historical fiction is a pretty great tool.
[01:05:28] Katie Dooley: I think it's good. You know how I'd solve this Northern Ireland problem?
[01:05:33] Preston Meyer: How would you solve this problem?
[01:05:35] Katie Dooley: I'd make everyone listen to the Holy Watermelon Podcast, and I'd make everyone follow us on our social media. That's Facebook, Instagram and Discord. And to show that you're a true believer, I would get people to purchase merchandise and subscribe to our Patreon. Because when you have a comprehensive religious education. Preston's not taking me seriously. I'm not even taking me seriously. When you have a comprehensive religious education, you can solve global issues.
[01:06:12] Preston Meyer: Well, okay. At the very least, you can recognize when something is a genuine religion problem or if it's something entirely different. At the very least, you'll get that far.
[01:06:25] Katie Dooley: Yes. Thank you for minimizing my pitch.
[01:06:30] Preston Meyer: But yeah, we are grateful that you have joined us for as long as you have. And we're going to keep doing this, and we hope you'll keep joining us,
[01:06:41] Katie Dooley: And especially this episode,
[01:06:41] Both Speakers: Peace be with you.
