This week, we’re joined by Dr. Glen Fairen, PhD, a religious studies professor at Oklahoma State University, for a thought-provoking discussion on academia, religious history, and the unexpected ways we engage with belief systems. Dr. Fairen shares why some of his favorite moments in the classroom come from students challenging his ideas because questioning is at the heart of academic growth. We also dive into how religious studies can be made more accessible, engaging, and even sexy—because let’s be honest, history and theology should never be boring.
Beyond the classroom, we explore Dr. Fairen’s fascinating research on the Qumran and Nag Hammadi groups, as well as the study of witchcraft—which, despite popular misconceptions, is a legitimate area of religious scholarship. We break down the ways occult traditions and witchcraft aren’t inherently evil, but rather, how societies tend to label unfamiliar or uncomfortable beliefs as “occult.” .
Our conversation with Glen is packed with humor, laughter, and plenty of insights. Dr. Fairen brings both expertise and wit to the table, making complex religious concepts approachable and entertaining. Whether you're a scholar, a skeptic, or just curious about the history of Christianity, alternative spiritualities, or how academia shapes our understanding of faith, you won’t want to miss this episode.
This interview continues on Patreon
Dr. Fairen is the author of As Below, So Above: Apocalypticism, Gnosticism, and the Scribes of Qumran and Nag Hammadi. You can find it on Amazon.
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[00:00:11] Katie Dooley: Hi, Preston.
[00:00:12] Preston Meyer: Hi, Katie. It's another great one. We're doing another interview on the Holy Watermelon Podcast.
[00:00:19] Katie Dooley: We're supposed to say at the same time.
[00:00:20] Preston Meyer: You're right.
[00:00:21] Preston Meyer: I didn't lead up to that properly at all.
[00:00:24] Katie Dooley: We're doing another interview today on.
[00:00:26] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon Podcast.
[00:00:29] Katie Dooley: Yeah, it's a little bit corny.
[00:00:31] Glen Fairen: No. It's excellent.
[00:00:34] Katie Dooley: Would you like to give our guest the professional introduction? And then I'm going to tell a personal story.
[00:00:40] Preston Meyer: All right. So, Doctor Glenn Farren is a visiting assistant professor at Oklahoma State University and an adjunct lecturer at the University of Texas, El Paso. Glenn received his PhD in religious studies from the University of Alberta in 2015, which happens to be the year I started at the U of A. He is also the author of "As Below, So Above: Apocalypticism. Gnosticism and the Scribes of Qumran and Nag Hammadi", published by Gorgias Press in 2008, which is long before your PhD.
[00:01:11] Glen Fairen: It was my master's dissertation.
[00:01:13] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:01:14] Glen Fairen: Yeah. I don't know how that happened.
[00:01:16] Katie Dooley: Cool.
[00:01:16] Glen Fairen: The reviews have been terrible. So it's been... It's great. Yeah.
[00:01:20] Katie Dooley: Well, thank you so much for coming to do this.
[00:01:23] Glen Fairen: Oh. Thank you.
[00:01:24] Katie Dooley: Interview. I'm super excited to pick your brain on all sorts of religious studies things.
[00:01:30] Preston Meyer: So I'm curious what prompted you to get into religious academia?
[00:01:35] Glen Fairen: I want to say it's something deep and profound, but I actually was failing, not failing, but doing poorly in my science degree. I was in pre-med for a little while and my undergrad then I was I ended up getting a minor in astronomy, I think, but I sucked at the numbers and I took an intro to World Religion class and yeah, that changed it. A teacher, she looked at me and said, so Glenn, why can't you have sex with your parents? And that was like, that's a good question.
[00:02:00] Preston Meyer: Is it?
[00:02:01] Glen Fairen: One kid behind me said, because mom's ugly. And I'm like, well, that's probably the wrong answer. But the whole idea, we talk about taboo and classification and then it just I'm like, I guess I'm doing this now so...
[00:02:13] Preston Meyer: I feel weird about that being the question that comes up.
[00:02:16] Glen Fairen: It was it was, well, she would she's like a brilliant flake. She'd sit on the desk and swing her feet like a five year old. She's like, so why can't you have sex with your parents, Glen? I don't know. You know, it was like it was just... So we talked and then it just went off on some weird tangent and I started taking, you know, New Testament classes, Gnosticism classes. New prof, showed up at the U of R in Regina. And so I started working with him. And here I am on your couch.
[00:02:46] Preston Meyer: Nice.
[00:02:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:02:47] Preston Meyer: I feel like we skipped a lot of steps.
[00:02:49] Glen Fairen: Yeah, there was all the boring hand-wavy stuff. Yeah, sure.
[00:02:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:02:52] Glen Fairen: No. It was. I always liked stories of gods and myths. And I grew up religious. Family was pretty. They were pretty devout, but vanilla flavored. Like nobody really had a denomination, but we were really believed in whatever, and I just assumed. I don't know, because I didn't hate gay people and I didn't follow the Bible literally, that I must be a bad person. So then I thought, I'm going to study this, and then here I am. So yeah, that's sort of what happened. And then I taught a witchcraft class, which is so weird.
[00:03:24] Katie Dooley: Which we'll get into.
[00:03:25] Glen Fairen: Yeah, sure, sure and people tend to like that one a lot. Yeah.
[00:03:30] Preston Meyer: So did you attend church pretty regularly then, as a kid or growing up?
[00:03:34] Glen Fairen: No. We did, off and on. My mother, when she remarried, she married some guy who wanted to have like biweekly or twice weekly Bible studies. So we had to go to church and we had a Bible study, and it was just this sort of patriarchal, you know, end of... Kind of Pentecostal almost vibe to it. Like we were told, like, if you don't convert, Jesus is going to come in and, like, rip your head off like it was really, I don't know. I can't remember the movies. There were these movies that the evangelical church put out in the States where the like, the the rapture, and they had like, it was like a whole series of them.
[00:04:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah. From the ones from the 70s. Yeah. Um. Oh, shoot. What are they called? I know they're, like, fantastically bad.
[00:04:15] Glen Fairen: Oh. But terrifying when you're, like nine.
[00:04:19] Katie Dooley: I watched them all and it's like, what are they called? Oh, we've talked about it in past episodes. It's gonna bug me. I'll think about it.
[00:04:26] Glen Fairen: I'll never forget this. Oh, what was it? It was a stainless steel guillotine. That was the thing. And they would cut your head off if you didn't believe. Because you missed out on the rapture. Barcodes were the mark of the beast. That was a big thing.
[00:04:40] Preston Meyer: Um, I mean, it's the vaccines now.
[00:04:42] Glen Fairen: The vaccine. I know, I know, I mean, I'm like, in the original 666. That's the mark of the beast. Thank you very much. Thank you. But, um. But, yeah, like, so that just had me terrified of anything vaguely religious. And then I started thinking for myself. That sounded condescending. I didn't mean that. Quite the condescending it was, but I was more interested in the history of all this stuff. And then I just started taking classes and had to take languages.
[00:05:07] Katie Dooley: The movie's called A Thief in the Night, and you can find it on YouTube. And it's got this, this intro song, just like slaps. It's so good.
[00:05:14] Preston Meyer: Oh, right. We have talked about this before.
[00:05:16] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I played it for you. Yeah.
[00:05:18] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we used to. We went every week to watch like an hour and a half. So we went about eight, eight times. And it was just this, you know, if you don't repent God's going to come in and F you up. Like, that was sort of the vibe, I was terrified. Like, I thought, I'm dead. Like...
[00:05:35] Katie Dooley: How old are you at this time?
[00:05:37] Glen Fairen: I was probably about 9 or 10. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then I kind of started rebelling around 12. I bought Iron Maiden's Number of the beast, and I'm like, okay, this is going to mess people up. So then I started listening to that and then direct route to where I am today.
[00:05:52] Katie Dooley: Nice.
[00:05:53] Glen Fairen: I did listen to it on the way here, actually.
[00:05:53] Katie Dooley: Get you in the right frame of mind, in the right religious studies podcast.
[00:05:58] Preston Meyer: I like it.
[00:05:59] Glen Fairen: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:06:00] Preston Meyer: So the academic path requires an awful lot of writing. Can you tell us about your master's thesis that made it into a book that got published?
[00:06:08] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Um, well, the master's. I didn't know what I wanted to write, which was weird. Um, I was studying under a gentleman named William Arnell. He's pretty renowned, you know, New Testament religious studies scholar. Somehow ended up at the University of Regina. They lucked out getting him. I was I just started taking classes and wasn't sure I'd found an article somewhere that said the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostics were not the same religion. And I remember thinking, well, that's stupid. You know, you're not even talking like it seemed really weird to say. So I started writing, and then 200 pages later, I defended my dissertation. And then about a year later, I was at the U of T for a little while. A publisher approached me because a friend of a friend sent it to them, and they gave me a book contract. It was really weird. Yeah.
[00:06:55] Katie Dooley: Nice.
[00:06:55] Glen Fairen: Yeah. It was. It was a real shock. I I'm it I'm still not sure what to make of it. I haven't published my PhD. I got too busy right after I finished, but it was so weird to have my first publication be a book. I mean, it's a small publisher, but it still counts.
[00:07:11] Katie Dooley: Absolutely it does!
[00:07:12] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Katie Dooley: And to be a I mean, I have the odd in my career, the odd client that wants to publish a book, and very rarely do they get someone approaching them.
[00:07:22] Glen Fairen: Yeah. That was I thought it was fake. Like I was convinced it was some scam. Like, who's going to scam me? I'll give it to you for free. But, um. Yeah, it was it was a real shock, actually. And I think the argument more or less still holds up. I changed quite a bit of it still, but I mean, that was 12 years ago. Something like that. 14. Oh, God. How long ago was that?
[00:07:40] Preston Meyer: That was 2008. So...
[00:07:42] Katie Dooley: 14.
[00:07:43] Glen Fairen: Oh, my God, it's...
[00:07:44] Preston Meyer: Been a while.
[00:07:44] Glen Fairen: I better get back. Back in writing some more, I guess.
[00:07:50] Preston Meyer: So what is the thesis of this book? See if we can sell it a little bit.
[00:07:55] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah because, I mean it's...
[00:07:57] Katie Dooley: Available on Amazon?
[00:07:58] Glen Fairen: Yeah it is.
[00:07:59] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:08:00] Glen Fairen: It's on Amazon, which is so cool. The argument is that for some reason, the so-called Gnostics, while they're actually Christians, would be ignored by the average everyday person in the in the last century. But the Dead Sea Scrolls, they look for things about Christianity when there's nothing about Christianity. So I was like, well, this is really strange. Why is one ignored and the other kind of embrace? So I started thinking about, you know, what kind of shape these writers were or what their what kind of arguments they were trying to make. And so basically my argument was that they are very similar. Just one is apocalyptic and one is Gnostic. They're both using the Book of Enoch as sort of a big I mean, that's assuming they're not all monolithic. There isn't like Dead Sea Scrolls coherent Gnostic stuff, coherent, but there's hints that do seem to overlap more than what people want to assume that are different, and I think they're more similar than they're different, at least some of the arguments anyway so...
[00:09:00] Preston Meyer: I think that's one of the things that we remind people all the time on our podcast is that no group is monolithic.
[00:09:05] Glen Fairen: No.
[00:09:06] Preston Meyer: There's so much variety.
[00:09:07] Glen Fairen: That's the more fun part, right? The variety. Like, I mean, when I teach a class, I call it Christianitys or Judaisms because it is not one monolithic thing. I mean, students get all twitchy about it and the grammar is really awkward. Like, Islams sounds really dumb, but it still gets the point across. But yeah, I mean, there's this huge variety and saying absolutely this and that are opposite is, I think, sloppy scholarship. So whoever wrote that article bad I don't remember who wrote it actually. It was so long ago, but it really got me angry. I was weirdly upset by that article, and that sort of got me writing,
[00:09:48] Katie Dooley: Hopefully it made your Masters a little easier to be that angry about something.
[00:09:51] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Katie Dooley: Okay, good.
[00:09:52] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Like, any sort of long academic stuff is so exhausting. I mean, I spent what was it? I think I started writing it in January, and then I finished in November, and it was just me, you know, reading books and writing and complaining about it to my ex. And yeah, it was it was lovely, but it finished, so that's all that matters. So yeah.
[00:10:16] Preston Meyer: One of the things I love best about academia is the arguments on such niche topics between experts. And so where do you find yourself disagreeing with other experts?
[00:10:28] Glen Fairen: Huh, well...
[00:10:29] Preston Meyer: Or scholars in general?
[00:10:31] Glen Fairen: Yeah. I mean, I think with me, like I tend to... There's a bunch like when I think about it, there's so many like one of the ones is I don't think there's any such thing as Gnosticism or Gnostics. That's not a thing.
[00:10:42] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:10:43] Glen Fairen: Scholars that kind of got that was sort of the dominant idea about ten years ago. It sort of shifted again, the shift's wrong. They're completely wrong. Yeah. I mean, the four other people who know what I'm talking about will agree with me or disagree.
[00:10:57] Preston Meyer: I took a few classes with Lorne Zelyck.
[00:10:59] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah Lorne. He was on my committee.
[00:11:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah and he was very clear. Like the Gnostics. Not what you think they are.
[00:11:07] Glen Fairen: No.
[00:11:07] Preston Meyer: The whole time I was working with him.
[00:11:09] Glen Fairen: Yeah, Lorne and I. It's funny, Lorne is so smart. Smarter than I am. But we have very different takes on topics. Like, we both taught a class on Jesus the same semester. And, I mean, if you went into his class and went into mine, they'd be completely different kind of set of arguments and set of discussions, like the evidence for the historical Jesus. There just isn't.
[00:11:32] Preston Meyer: Yours was in the evening, wasn't it?
[00:11:34] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Preston Meyer: I was gonna do it, but couldn't do evenings.
[00:11:37] Glen Fairen: I... Yeah, I always get stuck with the evening classes, but I tend to like I'm not really awake until about noon.
[00:11:43] Katie Dooley: Sure.
[00:11:43] Katie Dooley: Yeah. I went to school for 20 odd years, so I didn't have to get up early. But yeah, it was. It was fun. Like, that's one of one of my, uh, colleagues and friends, uh, uh, Patrick Hart, he has his doctorate as well. We've been arguing about evidence for the historical Jesus for ten years, I guess. And it's just one of those, like, just chasing your own tail. Like, it's sort of what questions you want to ask, and that's usually where you end up. So, um, I just got my evaluations from OSU, and some kids said that I, you know, as an atheist, I shouldn't deny the historical presence of Jesus. Like I never said that. I thought it, but I never said it. I would never say that in class in Oklahoma. Yeah, that's, um, what else do I argue about? I will argue about anything for the sake of arguing. I mean, there's like the Jesus one is a big one. How to define religion? Is it special? That's one we get. And that's the problem with like theology. It tends not the problem, but the different assumptions that it's somehow unique or special. And I'm like, no, it's just we classify things as religion. It's not like it doesn't exist in the wild.
[00:12:51] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:12:51] Glen Fairen: Go around pointing. That's religion. That's not. It takes work for something to be religious. A religion gets tax exemption. That's one of the defining features of modern understandings in North America of religion, which strikes me as hilarious. That's what you need the state to authorize your your thing to be really religious, not divine, not anything else but the state. Great stuff. Fantastic. That sounded sarcastic. I meant that legitimately. Yeah.
[00:13:19] Katie Dooley: I mean, I don't think churches should be tax exempt, so.
[00:13:22] Preston Meyer: But as long as they are, let's take advantage.
[00:13:25] Katie Dooley: Take advantage of it.
[00:13:25] Glen Fairen: I mean, some like I'll say United Church of Canada, pretty progressive social agenda. Been on the forefront of, say, same sex unions since the 80s. Yeah they should be tax exempt. Other ones, not so much.
[00:13:38] Katie Dooley: Church of Scientology?
[00:13:40] Glen Fairen: Well, you know what? I. I have a weird soft spot for the Church of Scientology and the Mormons. Well, there, so the Mormons are just they're so nice and they're just in their little white shirts and being polite. And, I don't know, there's something really charming about Mormons. I don't know why. But the Scientology is interesting because people keep pointing out how it's not real. And it's like this science fiction writer who made up this stuff and who could believe in an alien, you know, Xenu or whatever. I'm like, yeah, because the dead Jewish zombie is so much more.
[00:14:15] Katie Dooley: Real.
[00:14:16] Glen Fairen: Real, right? Like...
[00:14:17] Katie Dooley: So a lot of your work is done in spooky religious traditions. Can you expand on the work you do there? What draws you there and what keeps you there?
[00:14:27] Glen Fairen: Sure. I feel like there should be this really profound academic reason, but I was really a New Testament scholar and Gnostic scholar, so-called Gnostic. And then I was given the witchcraft class in like 2011 at the U of A, and I thought it was done poorly. So I retooled it and make it about theory and method. Then I started researching, you know, occult, so-called occult stuff and, you know, Theosophical Society and Scientology and Wicca. That was my undergrad. I spent time with a Wiccan coven in Regina and interviewed them a lot. That is the weirdest thing that ever. I mean, hanging out with Wiccans in Regina, Saskatchewan, that is deeply bizarre. So I went to a ritual I wrote Skyclad.
[00:15:10] Katie Dooley: Oh.
[00:15:11] Glen Fairen: Yeah, I know right? Did not expect that. I walked in like, oh, we're going outside, are we? You know, Regina in spring. So it's like three feet of snow. Like you guys go outside. Skyclad if you want. I'm going to just take notes over here.
[00:15:25] Katie Dooley: In my parka.
[00:15:26] Glen Fairen: Yeah, well, I'm not going to say whether I went Skyclad or not.
[00:15:28] Katie Dooley: Oh, wow.
[00:15:29] Glen Fairen: Well, I mean, if you're in a room full of naked people and you're the only one clothed, you stand out. Yeah.
[00:15:35] Preston Meyer: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
[00:15:36] Glen Fairen: Exactly.
[00:15:37] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:15:37] Katie Dooley: When in Regina. Yeah.
[00:15:39] Glen Fairen: Drop trow and go outside. Yeah. Um. But, uh. Yeah, I... So I was really interested in like goddess movements and alternative religions, alternative to Christianity. And I just started kind of, you know, I got the class that was sort of the weird thing. It wasn't my area, and I just sort of morphed into, you know, we talk about Harry Potter and we've been talking about QAnon and how it's the new Satanic panic that was this semester, and Dungeons and Dragons and board games and all that kind of stuff. So it goes the whole gamut, you know, so it gets to indulge all my weird quirks, and I get to pretend I know what I'm talking about. It's fantastic.
[00:16:19] Katie Dooley: I love it. We, I, we've kind of found in our research and talking to other people that whenever someone kind of bashes the occult or we had a guest on. But he was accused of being involved in the occult, that people who say that actually have no idea what the occult is.
[00:16:33] Glen Fairen: No, that's the best part. Yeah. Yeah, I used to. I don't wear it today, but I have a little Wiccan pentagram or a little pentagram. I got it in Salem, so it's super legit.
[00:16:43] Katie Dooley: Nice.
[00:16:43] Glen Fairen: Yes. And I was at a meeting of the religious studies group in Oklahoma, and I'm sitting there and this guy asked me, he goes, are you an occultist? And I said, no, I play one on TV. And he was wearing a crucifix. So are you a Roman executioner? And he didn't think it was funny, but it's true. No, it's a cipher for negative.
[00:17:05] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:17:05] Glen Fairen: Occult means bad. It doesn't. Nobody knows exactly what it. It's a basket they put things in. It's not. It's about the the classification, not about the thing itself. It's like magic. And you know what makes. Why is Jesus not a necromancer? You know, it's because, well, we like him. So he gets to be religion. Occcult, we don't like it, so we'll call it occult. That's usually how it comes down. Like it's really a point of preference, I think.
[00:17:29] Katie Dooley: Yeah,
[00:17:29] Glen Fairen: Yeah. But yeah, I'd love to be accused of occult stuff. Nobody ever accused me of that. It's not fair.
[00:17:36] Katie Dooley: Are you a part of the occult, Glen?
[00:17:37] Glen Fairen: Yes, I am, but I can't tell you more. Or I'd have to summon, I don't know, Gozer the Gozerian from Ghostbusters. Yeah. Deep cut. Yeah.
[00:17:54] Katie Dooley: Is there is there a two sentence definition you can give us of the occult? Or is it literally just air quotes? Bad magic?
[00:18:02] Glen Fairen: Um. You know, there's a bunch that have come up with definitions and they're not bad, but they never quite encapsulate everything. For me, it is that which is like what we would call religion, but there's something inappropriate about it. However you want to define it. So it's it's kind of religion with a quarter turn off I think.
[00:18:23] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:18:24] Glen Fairen: So it's simply I mean, there's I mean, people will disagree with it, but for my purposes, I don't want to make a distinction between, you know, Catholicism and Scientology. Why should we make that distinction, for instance? Why not compare them in parody and see what happens?
[00:18:39] Katie Dooley: That's one of my questions, is, are there any intersections between the occult and mainstream religion that people that might surprise people? Is there anything?
[00:18:47] Glen Fairen: I think there's I mean, it's to me that people find distinctions. That's the surprise to me. Like, if you pull back and think about it as something you've never experienced. So if you've never experienced, say, Catholicism and you've never experienced Scientology, you look at them. Yeah, there's differences. But is one good and bad? Like that seems to be the, the, the overarching way that people think about it. So I think the definition or the overlaps are almost too numerous in a lot of ways. It sort of depends what questions you're asking for. You know, like if I want to talk about the Gnostic heretics and their occult or if I want to talk about them in a different way than they get to be Christian. Right? Like, it really does depend on the questions you ask. So when somebody says occult, it always, if I'm out, like out and about, that's different. But if it's in class, that's like, you got to define that. You got to define that shit in the paper. I'm going to I'm going to come down on you.
[00:19:40] Preston Meyer: I feel like we need definitions included in papers on almost everything we talk about in religion.
[00:19:46] Glen Fairen: Well, and the thing is, people assume they know what religion is. That's the problem. Like, I go into a class and everybody already knows about Christianity. So how do I talk about that? You know, I try to deconstruct it or make it a little more unfamiliar so you can think about it. So it's usually jokes and making fun of stuff so people laugh or not, as the case may be. Or not, I guess. But yeah, it is one of those weird topics where people come into it. No understanding of it, but they know it already. Like Richard Dawkins for instance. No idea about religion, but he's apparently an expert on it, so it's very strange. I find that really weird about religion. Nobody would go into quantum physics and just say, well, you know, I heard a guy talk once, so I'm an expert and, you know, I'm going to take a class on it. Like, that's just so weird to me.
[00:20:32] Preston Meyer: Dawkins knows why he's an atheist.
[00:20:36] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:20:36] Preston Meyer: And that's the whole yard.
[00:20:40] Glen Fairen: It is. I mean, like I was reading The God Delusion. I'm there like 90% of it. And that's why I think he pisses me off because I'm 90% there. But he made some comment about how Buddhism isn't a religion. It's a philosophy because there's no God like, well, that's stupid.
[00:20:56] Preston Meyer: That's not how we define religion.
[00:20:57] Glen Fairen: That's not how anybody's defined religion. And then he said something about the problems in Ireland would not exist if it wasn't for religion. I'm like, have you heard of history?
[00:21:07] Preston Meyer: Right!
[00:21:07] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Like, uh. And that's when I shot him, your Honour. Like that was my reaction. And it's funny because, you know, people are so sure that they know it when they don't, you know, and, you know, I find that really interesting.
[00:21:23] Preston Meyer: So what have you been teaching most recently?
[00:21:26] Glen Fairen: Actually not very much. My job is just starting as a visiting assistant professor. So I taught six sections of Intro to World Religion and one section of witchcraft.
[00:21:38] Preston Meyer: Okay
[00:21:39] Glen Fairen: But we changed the term. We changed the name. It's a magic, witchcraft and occult, I think, is how we framed it. We kind of played around with it a bit to make it a little more palatable to the folks down there, because it was weird, because I took the class and it was kind of full, but like, here is like I was pulling in like 120 people and I was like, why are you guys here? I'm in Canada. I'm a total rock star. But yeah, that's what I was teaching there. And I'm teaching a class on apocalyptic narratives next year.
[00:22:08] Katie Dooley: Oh.
[00:22:09] Glen Fairen: Yeah, I taught it once before. I didn't like how it worked out. So I'm going to reframe it. And I'm working on contemporary religious movements class. So but I mean, I'm trying to worm my way into a more permanent position there. So.
[00:22:24] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:22:25] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:22:25] Katie Dooley: Fair enough. And then you get sabbaticals.
[00:22:27] Glen Fairen: Well, yeah. I mean that tenure, then you get the sabbatical. Yeah. I'd just be happy to get a steady paycheck like that. Sounds terrible. But, you know...
[00:22:34] Preston Meyer: That's the way it goes, though.
[00:22:35] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:22:36] Preston Meyer: You need to get paid.
[00:22:37] Glen Fairen: You do, yeah and it's, you know, I mean, I it feels like stealing in a lot of ways. Like, I get to talk about shit I like, so. And you got to listen. This is awesome. You're giving me money. Fantastic,
[00:22:47] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:22:48] Glen Fairen: And I get to pretend to be a doctor, so, yeah.
[00:22:50] Preston Meyer: You're not pretending.
[00:22:51] Glen Fairen: I know.
[00:22:52] Katie Dooley: He's the real doctor, everyone.
[00:22:54] Glen Fairen: I it still feels weird to me. Like I see a medical doctor. I just that they totally know more stuff. But again, if you're having a heart attack, don't come to me. You need an abstract worked on. Come to me. You need something translated Latin. I'm your guy. Anything else? No.
[00:23:09] Preston Meyer: Did you do Latin for your college or your university language?
[00:23:13] Glen Fairen: I had to do. I did Latin in my undergrad because I thought that's. I wanted to learn about religion. Of course, none of the stuff I studied was written in Latin.
[00:23:21] Preston Meyer: Of course not.
[00:23:22] Glen Fairen: Because I was just an idiot. I just took it. I took New Testament Greek. I took classical Greek, I took Coptic, I took German so I can read a lot, but I can't speak very well. Like I don't speak any of them.
[00:23:34] Preston Meyer: The language courses that if you're studying old languages for academic purposes, you're never taught to speak.
[00:23:41] Glen Fairen: No, my my Greek prof would make me say it because he thought my pronunciation was the worst, so he just burst out laughing all the time. I and it was fun. Like, it actually was a lot of fun. Like, I mangled it like crazy. But yeah, I took a bunch of languages, like 4 or 5 years of Greek and like three years of Latin and a year and a half of Coptic and a year of German. Like, it was a lot of work and you. But you lose it so quickly. Like, if I need to translate something, it might take me way longer than it should. I can work through it or just say, I don't need that language for this argument and yeah...
[00:24:14] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:24:14] Glen Fairen: It's it's... Languages are very humbling, I have to admit.
[00:24:18] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:24:18] Glen Fairen: Yeah. I am not a linguist. I was hooked on phonics kid, so yeah, I have no idea. So, um, but yeah, that was a big part of the training was the language, at least in my field, other fields you can avoid it if you pick the right topic. Like, if I wanted to do Mormon studies, I could totally ditch language.
[00:24:37] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:24:38] Preston Meyer: All the... Everything started in English, it was great.
[00:24:40] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of wanted to. But then you have to talk to people. I don't want to do that.
[00:24:44] Preston Meyer: There's that. Yeah.
[00:24:45] Glen Fairen: I like books, dead people nobody's heard about. That's the best. Because you can just say whatever you want and nobody knows.
[00:24:45] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:24:51] Glen Fairen: Like my dissertation, my PhD, nobody knew what I was talking about, which is great. You know, it could be obscure and mysterious.
[00:24:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's kind of nice.
[00:24:59] Katie Dooley: Oooooo.
[00:25:00] Preston Meyer: In the same way that people expected my religious studies degree to be in theology. I mean, which is how I ended up minoring anyway. Everyone's like, so you're taking Latin, right? I'm like, I have no use for Latin. I'm mostly looking at the Bible, and the Latin Bible is functionally useless, academically speaking.
[00:25:19] Glen Fairen: Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
[00:25:20] Preston Meyer: Greek and Hebrew was where I did my language credits.
[00:25:23] Glen Fairen: I would even say that Greek would be more important than the Hebrew, because the New Testament, the writers of the New Testament, were probably reading the Greek, Hebrew, Bible version of it. So that would be where they were running with it.
[00:25:35] Preston Meyer: Yeah
[00:25:36] Glen Fairen: Sure, yeah. But that. But yeah, bumping up against what is theology and religion is always tough. Yeah I still I still can't quite it's hard to articulate it. Like people always ask oh are you going to be a minister. Like yeah sure.
[00:25:48] Preston Meyer: I didn't study God in university. I studied people and traditions and history.
[00:25:55] Glen Fairen: I mean theology is really interesting.
[00:25:57] Preston Meyer: It is.
[00:25:57] Glen Fairen: Really intellectually vigorous, but it's a whole other set of questions. And the two are not the same. Like, if I'm guessing if I took a class on Jesus and say from Saint Joe's, it's more theologically geared, it'd be very different than one you would take at a non-theological place. So yeah. But yeah, people don't get it.
[00:26:18] Preston Meyer: That's what we're trying to fix.
[00:26:20] Glen Fairen: Oh obviously it's a great idea. I mean that's uh, one of the problems with religious studies. We have terrible branding. I mean, nobody knows what we do. Even our our conferences are you know part religious studies, part biblical studies, part theology and that's just confusing in my mind so...
[00:26:38] Katie Dooley: This leads into one of our questions really well. How can we make religious studies more accessible?
[00:26:45] Glen Fairen: Strippers.
[00:26:46] Katie Dooley: Oh!
[00:26:46] Glen Fairen: No, I don't know. Uh. That's terrible.
[00:26:48] Katie Dooley: I'm okay with that.
[00:26:49] Glen Fairen: Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say no. Um, and this is why you don't have tenure. Um. That's a good question, because I think making the distinction between religious studies and theology does both a service, um, makes theology more brand appropriate and makes religious studies different enough that people will want to take it. Like, just, you know, people come into religious studies class because they want to know about Jesus, you know, like, well, you're in the wrong class. Like, go to this other one. And not to be a jerk about it, but it is a different class. Like, I don't go into an English class, uh, to study psychology because Shakespeare had a mind. Right? That's that's they're two different disciplines. So I think making that distinction clear and not blurring the lines, which I think a lot of programs, a lot of faculties do, unfortunately. But it's also a financial burden as well, I'm sure. Like, you know, where I am now. We don't we have a minor in religious studies, but we're part of philosophy. And I'm in a hallway full of philosophers. So it's very weird because it's all very like we're doing different things, right, so... Yeah, I think I don't know, I mean, embrace the difference I think would make it cooler or make it more accessible, like try not to be theology, be as sort of out and proud, I guess. And it's, you know, pride month. So maybe kind of riffing on like taking something from that, be really overt about it. I think that would be that it's not theology in a sense, not that it's against theology, it's just not theology.
[00:28:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:28:27] Preston Meyer: Mhm.
[00:28:28] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:28:28] Katie Dooley: Do you think religious studies should be taught? Kind of K to 12. We've had this conversation.
[00:28:33] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah? Why not?
[00:28:36] Katie Dooley: I think it should be thrown in with social studies.
[00:28:37] Glen Fairen: I think. I mean, I think getting the social out of religions, like getting the wet out of water, like I think it should just be part of social studies. Like, you can't talk about culture without religion in some way, I think, or vice versa. I mean, the Catholic school boards have religion classes, if I'm not mistaken. I think they should do that in the public as well. As long as it's not indoctrination.
[00:28:58] Preston Meyer: Right. Don't teach theology K to 12, but religious studies.
[00:29:01] Glen Fairen: Yeah, why not? Yeah. I mean, just a little bit. Just a smidge. I mean, mind you, what eight year old is going to care, you know?
[00:29:09] Preston Meyer: Well, the average eight year old has a whole unit on feudal Japan. Let's talk, at least for a day, on what they believe religiously.
[00:29:17] Glen Fairen: That's true. Feudal Japan, though I keep thinking samurais and swords and cool stuff.
[00:29:22] Preston Meyer: I mean, it is super cool, but so are the kamis.
[00:29:24] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:29:25] Glen Fairen: Yeah. The kamis are pretty badass.
[00:29:27] Katie Dooley: You can pop on Spirited Away for a day.
[00:29:30] Glen Fairen: Yeah. That's true, that's true. You could call it mythology or something. World mythology, though...
[00:29:36] Preston Meyer: I if we can get people to start using the word mythology properly, that's great.
[00:29:41] Glen Fairen: But mythology has the the same problem as occult. It's negative. Like Christian religion, you know, Jewish mythology.
[00:29:49] Preston Meyer: Teach children to use words properly and commit to that growing up. We're in a better place.
[00:29:54] Glen Fairen: Where I am now. They were trying to get a class on mythology, and it was misunderstood by the administration. It kind of came off like we were being dismissive of these other traditions like, no, we have like three classes on Christian mythology. It's all Christian studies. Here's another kind of thing. But people still calling if I call Christianity mythology, if I say the Christian myth, you've lost half the people in the room. That's the problem. It's not a myth if I believe in it. I had a personal experience with Jesus. Remember? He got me pregnant. Um. That's not nice. Don't laugh. That just encourages. Yeah. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh, yeah. No. Go ahead. It's fine. It's your basement I can. Yeah. I don't know how you could make it sexier. Like we've tried, like, I mean, talking about Harry Potter and Dungeons and Dragons kind of help, which is weird, how Dungeons and Dragons became sexy. That's a whole other podcast, right?
[00:30:53] Katie Dooley: We can't kick them out. They're too popular!
[00:30:56] Preston Meyer: Did you ever see Dark Dungeons?
[00:30:58] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:59] Preston Meyer: Yeah
[00:31:00] Glen Fairen: Of course I did. Yeah, I love that stuff. I got all the, uh, the chick tracks. That's, uh, like how D&D, you know, convinces people to do evil stuff. I used to be a dungeon master. I couldn't get anybody to, like, just to agree to a day, you know? But, yeah, the dark dungeons and all that kind of. That's that stuff's great. Yeah. Like, so lean into that stuff, like, make it sexy, you know, like, I think that will draw people and make it very different from theology, for instance.
[00:31:31] Katie Dooley: And now that we're talking about this, I'm thinking about our most popular episodes and how as we get to more traditional religious topics, that those have lesser views than we did one on, um, parody religions.
[00:31:45] Glen Fairen: Oh, like pastafarianism.
[00:31:46] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dudeism and...
[00:31:49] Glen Fairen: Oh the dude.
[00:31:50] Preston Meyer: The... Especially the sexier, more fun internet trope-y.
[00:31:55] Katie Dooley: We did that one. That was that was kind of that's like one of our most listened to episodes.
[00:32:00] Glen Fairen: Yeah. It's funny how the, the jokey religions become real in the sense like Jediism.
[00:32:06] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:32:06] Glen Fairen: Like, oh, as long as they don't talk about meta chlorians and we can make them be a religion. But as long as you go there, it's stupid. But I can't buy into that anyway, the idea of like, when does a joke become real, right? Like the rosticurians? Fraternity of the Rose cross may have started out as a joke and then it became a religion, right? Cthulhu. That was like a hack literary idea that people kind of bought into. Which is pretty neat.
[00:32:34] Preston Meyer: I think 100 years from now, you might have a few people who are genuinely worried about appeasing the great old ones.
[00:32:41] Glen Fairen: Well, yeah. Like it's I remember years ago I was at a garage sale and I was looking at books and this, this elderly lady said, well, I have this book downstairs. I'm afraid to touch it. If you can get it, it's yours. So I went down and it was like the Necronomicon.
[00:32:55] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah.
[00:32:56] Glen Fairen: Which is like basically just a bad take on HBO. F Yeah. I thought it was real, like I was a teenager, so I'm like, let's see if we can worship some demons. But it didn't work out. Just, you know, cause a lot of fires and. Yeah. Broke a few mirrors. It was a bad time. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I got expelled from school. No, it's not. Um. But. Yeah, like it's funny. What will become what was sort of a joke will become real. And you know what's uh? Like even I shouldn't say joke, but something like like Mormonism seems ridiculous in a lot of ways, but it's become almost like it's fully accepted as a stream of Christianity where 100 years ago they were killing people who were Mormon. You know, they were being persecuted. So, I mean, what changes in 100 years? I mean, how what changes in ten years? You know, that that would be interesting. Like Wicca became legit for some reason, which I think drove a lot of Wiccans crazy in some ways.
[00:33:53] Preston Meyer: Probably.
[00:33:54] Glen Fairen: Yeah, because there's something who doesn't want to be a bit of an edgelord, right? Like that... Like I kind of like D&D is cool?
[00:34:02] Preston Meyer: The closest I get to Edgelord lately, I'll point out that Christians worship Lucifer every now and then, or that Freemasons worship Lucifer.
[00:34:11] Glen Fairen: Oh yeah.
[00:34:11] Preston Meyer: Because you know, the name Lucifer shows up one time in the King James Bible, and it's not actually a reference to the devil, but you know, the Morning Star, that it is the same word basically as a title for Christ more than once in the Bible.
[00:34:27] Glen Fairen: Oh yes, yes.
[00:34:28] Preston Meyer: And that's that's my good edge that I get.
[00:34:31] Glen Fairen: That's pretty good. Yeah, that'll, um, some people just look at you. You can hear them blinking like "I felt the spirit." Like that'll be the response. Like, okay, good enough. All right.
[00:34:41] Preston Meyer: So another facet of parody and religion and art. I remember you have a tattoo and I can see it a little bit every now and then. You told us about when I took your class back eight years ago, or whatever it was.
[00:34:54] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah. I got this. It's a mouse. And I designed, like, a stained glass window for this mouse. And because I did, most of my dissertation was on the the so-called heretic Marcion, who was one of the first Christians who came up with the New Testament and he denied the Hebrew Bible as legitimate for Christianity. All this kind of great stuff. But there's no images of him. And he was called the mouse that gnaws at Scripture by one of his enemies. So I thought I'll get a stained glass window if he was so saint Marcion was sort of my idea so... Lorne saw it like.. It was just... He calls me Marcionite all the time when he sees me. It's super weird. Like walking down the street goes "you Marcionite!" And like, what the hell? Oh, it's Lorne so deeply. I was on a date once and he did that and the person I was with, what is he talking about? Like, it's such a long story. I don't know where to go.
[00:35:48] Preston Meyer: So there's more story to it.
[00:35:50] Glen Fairen: The tattoo? No, that was it. Just Lorne trolling me, yeah.
[00:35:53] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:35:53] Glen Fairen: All my tattoos have like a religious studies theme to it.
[00:35:56] Katie Dooley: Oh, interesting.
[00:35:56] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:35:57] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Like I got one for every degree and I got a bee when I did my first international paper.
[00:36:01] Preston Meyer: Nice.
[00:36:02] Glen Fairen: It was in Salem. We were drunk. It was great.
[00:36:04] Preston Meyer: Fun.
[00:36:05] Glen Fairen: Yeah, it was fun. Well, we picked the tattoos, then got drunk. So it's not...
[00:36:09] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:36:09] Glen Fairen: It's a better story if I say I'm drunk, but it's... I just thought of a bee, I like bees.
[00:36:14] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:36:14] Glen Fairen: Yeah.
[00:36:14] Preston Meyer: Bees are important.
[00:36:15] Glen Fairen: I think they're important. Yes. So our international conferences. So yeah.
[00:36:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:36:20] Glen Fairen: But no, it's, um. Uh, it's funny, a lot of religious studies folks have tattoos like, I've known quite a few. Um, I can think of, like, 4 or 5 people I've taught in my head that have weird religious studies tattoos, which is kind of kind of trippy.
[00:36:34] Preston Meyer: Cool.
[00:36:35] Glen Fairen: Yeah, yeah. I had a guy in the LRT the other day berate me for my I have a leg tattoo has like a phrase from the Kabbalah on it. And he was all mad because you shouldn't use, you know, God's on your body. I'm like, yeah, there's no such thing as God. I mean, you know, whatever. Like, don't get mad, man. It's my body. Get lost.
[00:36:52] Preston Meyer: Right. The number of people who want to police other people's bodies is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.
[00:37:01] Glen Fairen: Yeah. I mean, just look at the news today.
[00:37:04] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:37:04] Glen Fairen: Oh, sweet, merciful crap, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's depressing. Yeah. The policing of other people is is fascinating too. And how the the claim to religion is somehow a good enough reason, you know?
[00:37:18] Preston Meyer: It validates for some people, really awful behavior.
[00:37:22] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Or it negates like one of the ones I always got was, well, you can't say that that's disrespectful of my religion. And I'm like, that's not my job to be respectful. And I'm not being disrespectful. It's just that you've got a bug up your butt over it. And that's I was clearly marking today, so maybe it's in my head, but there's that sense that you've got to give that which is religion respect. Right. There's something much like occult is bad. Religion deserves respect. I'm like, why, you know?
[00:37:51] Katie Dooley: Well and I we've talked about this before. I think that's where so many problems that we're seeing with religion come from now is because we've been told not to talk about it in polite company. So now really extreme beliefs get to fester. You don't you don't have anyone checking them to be going. That's really fucked up.
[00:38:07] Glen Fairen: Yeah. Yeah it is, it is.
[00:38:09] Katie Dooley: Um, uh, so...
[00:38:11] Glen Fairen: And how like, certain certain ideas get ignored, like what's in a religion versus, oh, you know, this really is all about peace and love. Well, except for that crusade. I mean, that's that's the problem, we'll ignore that. Or, you know, like, there is some weird, almost willful ignorance about religion, which I... It drives me crazy. That's why we need religious studies, at least to learn about it.
[00:38:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's there's so much nuance and so much nonsense in every tradition.
[00:38:40] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah.
[00:38:40] Preston Meyer: It's it's just fascinating.
[00:38:43] Glen Fairen: It's so weird what people will hang their hat on. Like, that's the part that gets me like a little element of, of, like of a tradition that that people ignore everything else, but they hang on to that. Like, I can't remember what verse it is, but like in the New Testament, Jesus says, you know, I don't come to bring peace. I come to bring a sword. Right. Nobody, nobody brings that one up. Let's go beat up some people, like nobody uses that. It's always this other element for some reason, which I find fascinating. It's like the US with the Second Amendment, right? Like, nobody gets all, you know, defensive over the 11th. I don't even know what that 11th is, to be honest. But that's. You know what I mean? Like, it becomes the cipher for something else. So, yeah, it's deeply weird.
[00:39:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:39:25] Glen Fairen: Didn't want to get into Roe versus Wade, but here we are. Yeah man, that nightmare.
[00:39:30] Preston Meyer: Yeah, let's detour from that.
[00:39:31] Glen Fairen: Thank you, yeah yeah yeah.
[00:39:33] Preston Meyer: What's a question that you've always wished somebody would ask you that never gets asked?
[00:39:38] Glen Fairen: Why are you so awesome, Dr Fairen?
[00:39:41] Katie Dooley: Why are you so awesome, Dr Fairen?
[00:39:42] Glen Fairen: Just the way it is. Just, you know me. No. Um. Good question. I've had a lot of good questions asked. One of the one of my favorite ones was, why is it that Jesus isn't a necromancer? And I'm like, that is a brilliant effing question. And to me, that's... You figured it out. I can't answer it. Like, and those are the kinds of questions I like or somebody just saying something different, you know, like, it's nothing that I have questions that I want them to ask. I have questions I don't want them to ask.
[00:40:19] Preston Meyer: We all have questions we don't want to have asked for sure.
[00:40:23] Glen Fairen: And it's not that they're bad. It's just again, like, but I don't know somebody any question that makes me think or doesn't or challenges me. Actually I love that when a student brings up something that puts me on the defensive like, that's the best. Like, I think, you know, if you think I'm blowing smoke up your ass, you call it, call me on it. I have to defend it. That's why I'm getting paid the big bucks. Big bucks in quotes. Um, but but that was. I guess that would be the. I couldn't say one question, but the type of, like, push back and always question like you should, you know, every source you read, me, your books, whatever. Always challenge it. I mean, that's that's the important part I think.
[00:41:08] Preston Meyer: That's what academia is all about.
[00:41:09] Glen Fairen: You'd think. I mean...
[00:41:12] Preston Meyer: Higher up at least.
[00:41:14] Glen Fairen: Well. You know, you'd be surprised. People get, you know, very dogmatic in their their ideas.
[00:41:24] Preston Meyer: There's gatekeepers for sure.
[00:41:25] Glen Fairen: Very much.
[00:41:26] Preston Meyer: In fact, the scientific world and academia fits in there pretty tightly, is a lot like religion in its own way.
[00:41:33] Glen Fairen: Oh, yeah. Like there. Well, the scholar, I think I mentioned, Jonathan Smith. I mean, for the longest time, you couldn't critique him because he was perfect. He was the god of religious studies. People would. But there would be so much defense that it was almost hard to want to critique him. And I'm like, I love his stuff, so I have trouble anyway. But I can see problems. I just ignore them because I'm dogmatically, you know, bought into that. But anybody who pushes back, that's the best, you know, like I had a student in, in Alberta. She wrote a paper. I told her, like on Joseph Campbell, she wanted to write a big paper on Joseph Campbell. I'm like, I hate fucking Joseph Campbell. It's so hackneyed. So she wrote a paper on it and she got an A because she used the sources right. I think I said this paper is terrible, Joseph Campbell is a hack, but you did great. Here's your A and I was kind of joking but you know like... So push back, that would be the question I would and anybody who takes a class should push back. And if this prof doesn't like it then push harder. Go to the TA or.. Or I don't know, just don't let the props be the gatekeepers. That's the worst, I think. Hope I was never like that. I was never like that was I?
[00:42:45] Preston Meyer: I mean, I only had you for intro after my semester with Pat, so..
[00:42:50] Glen Fairen: Oh, Patrick. Pat Hart, whatever.
[00:42:54] Preston Meyer: I enjoyed you both.
[00:42:56] Glen Fairen: Pat's amazing. I shouldn't tease him.
[00:42:57] Preston Meyer: Honestly. There's very few instructors I had at the U of A that I didn't really enjoy working with.
[00:43:02] Glen Fairen: That's fantastic. I never took classes there. I came in halfway through my doctoral work. I wanted to work with Willy Braun, and so I took like one class with him. And then I just did thesis work for however long I think I taught way more than I ever took. Um, which is weird when I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that would be the answer I would give.
[00:43:23] Preston Meyer: Cool. Well, I don't think we have any more questions. And we've run up to the time that I warned you we would take.
[00:43:32] Glen Fairen: Oh, really? What time is it?
[00:43:34] Preston Meyer: A little after 830.
[00:43:35] Glen Fairen: Oh, shit, okay.
[00:43:36] Katie Dooley: Like quarter to nine.
[00:43:37] Preston Meyer: Yeah
[00:43:38] Katie Dooley: It's been a good one.
[00:43:38] Glen Fairen: It's hard to say with the light change. Yeah, I'm not used to that anymore.
[00:43:42] Katie Dooley: Is there anything you want to promote? Do you want to let us know what your... Let our audience know what you're up to, where they can find you?
[00:43:49] Glen Fairen: Um, you can find me at, uh, Oklahoma State University in the religious studies page. There's a link there. There's a really interesting group. Uh, it's a group I've done interviews with. They're called the Gnostic Wisdom Network, and they're like this sort of modern Gnostic church that that are nerdy and want to talk about Cthulhu and weird religious studies study stuff. Definitely take a listen to them too. Cool. Unless that Bogart's your group, then you just cut that out.
[00:44:17] Preston Meyer: We'll see.
[00:44:18] Glen Fairen: They're actually really nice. Nice folks. Um, they're just so gorpy and weird. It's great. Like, they're. You guys would get along great with them.
[00:44:26] Katie Dooley: Perfect.
[00:44:27] Glen Fairen: I just called you gorpy and weird and I meant it as a compliment so...
[00:44:31] Katie Dooley: It's fine.
[00:44:32] Glen Fairen: Thank you. All right. Good. Good. Yeah. So, no, I mean, uh, thanks for having me. This is awesome. I'm glad we were able to do it face to face as opposed to online. That would have sucked, unfortunately. So, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of funny that I ended up here at the time that you were wanting to do this.
[00:44:48] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:44:49] Katie Dooley: That was great. Uh, check out Glen's book on Amazon. Let's get more sales on that.
[00:44:54] Glen Fairen: Yeah, maybe get 20 copies sold. If you want a free copy, you can just ask me. I'll give it.
[00:44:59] Preston Meyer: Yeah?
[00:44:59] Glen Fairen: Well, I'll give you the PDF.
[00:45:01] Preston Meyer: That'd be great. I would have loved to read it in preparation for this. So I could ask you a whole bunch of questions for it. And I'm like, I don't know if I can shell out a hundred bucks for this.
[00:45:09] Glen Fairen: No. Oh, my God, I've never paid that forward either.
[00:45:12] Katie Dooley: We can. We can have Glen back.
[00:45:15] Preston Meyer: Absolutely.
[00:45:16] Katie Dooley: We have Gnosticism on our list anyway, so we'll get some.
[00:45:19] Glen Fairen: Do you? Oh, that'd be awesome. Yeah.
[00:45:21] Katie Dooley: We should show you our list of things you probably have some ideas for.
[00:45:24] Glen Fairen: Yeah, that sounds like great. That would be fantastic. I mean, Gnosticism is just so damn sexy. I love that stuff. Gospel of Thomas. Apocryphon of John.
[00:45:37] Preston Meyer: Especially when you know what it is. Instead of this vague menace in the corner that people just don't look at.
[00:45:43] Glen Fairen: Well, yeah like God's evil wants to murder us. You didn't hear that in Sunday school, right? Snake is the good guy, Eve. Like, just, you know, truth bombs all the angels and messes with them, and they try to rape a tree. Like, it's so weird. Like, it gets. It just gets weirder as it goes on. It's so fun. Yeah. It's so fun. Oh, God. I'm such a weirdo, okay.
[00:46:05] Katie Dooley: That's why you're here with us.
[00:46:06] Glen Fairen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:06] Katie Dooley: And as for us.
[00:46:08] Preston Meyer: You can find us on Facebook, Instagram and definitely discord. We have loads of fun sharing memes and good discussions on religious studies, and we've also got our Patreon where you can support us. And we've got YouTube and we've got...
[00:46:28] Katie Dooley: Spreadshirt for some great merch.
[00:46:30] Preston Meyer: So much merch on our spread shop, it's great. In fact, we've got a great band shirt I'm trying real hard to promote with John the Baptist and his many heads.
[00:46:43] Glen Fairen: Does it come in tall size?
[00:46:44] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah.
[00:46:45] Glen Fairen: Oh, then I'm gonna order. That sounds great. Yeah.
[00:46:49] Katie Dooley: So again, thank you to Doctor Glenn Farran for joining us today and...
[00:46:53] Glen Fairen: And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us as well.
[00:46:57]
Both Speakers:
Peace be with you!
