We've explored the fallacy of pagans and atheists bowing to Satan, and outlined some of the "Satanist" groups that don't believe he's a real personality. Now let's look at the real deal: the folks who genuinely worship a living Satan. Even with these groups, it's probably not what you would expect.
Most of these groups grow out of a resentment for the Christian establishment. Some of these groups are terribly anti-semitic, and in wonderfully odd ways; others have a troubling history of domestic abuse. The Order of the Nine Angles and the Joy of Satan Ministries get to join the list with the Temple of Set and the Luciferians on this new look at the spooky traditions that are growing in the world around us.
We also talk about Freemasons again, and the Leo Taxil hoax of the 1890s.
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[00:00:01] Katie Dooley: Hail, Satan!
[00:00:11] Preston Meyer: Once more with feeling!
[00:00:13] Katie Dooley: Hail, Satan! Is that how we're starting this episode?
[00:00:18] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:00:18] Katie Dooley: I love it!
[00:00:21] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we're getting ready for Spooktober again. We're. We're not really in October yet, but you know how it goes. We..
[00:00:27] Katie Dooley: Gotta.
[00:00:27] Preston Meyer: Celebrate when you can.
[00:00:28] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we gotta do a big, long lead up to the spookiest of the spooky. I don't know what the spookiest of the spooky is this year.
[00:00:34] Preston Meyer: We'll see. So we've already talked about Satan a little bit and Satanism. We're going to do a different group of Satanists.
[00:00:42] Katie Dooley: On today's episode of...
[00:00:44] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon Podcast.
[00:00:51] Katie Dooley: So this time last year, I think it was actually, it wasn't quite Spooktober last time we talked about it, because we paired it with our atheism episode.
[00:00:58] Preston Meyer: We did.
[00:00:58] Katie Dooley: Also spooky.
[00:01:00] Preston Meyer: For some people. It's terrifying.
[00:01:02] Katie Dooley: Right? And we talked about how most Satanists, the majority of Satanists don't actually worship Satan. But this group, they are theistic Satanists, so they do believe in Satan and worship and venerate him.
[00:01:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah, he's a real personal figure for these people. And of course, we're not just talking about Christians.
[00:01:28] Katie Dooley: No, we're talking about Satanists.
[00:01:30] Preston Meyer: Yeah, generally speaking, Christians believe in Satan a lot more than the average.
[00:01:34] Katie Dooley: Person.
[00:01:35] Katie Dooley: Satanist.
[00:01:36] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:01:36] Preston Meyer: Well, sure, if you want to generalize the whole population, even easier to say that.
[00:01:40] Katie Dooley: Yeah, they're a very niche group that believes in Satan.
[00:01:44] Preston Meyer: Yeah. These contrast really well with The Satanic Temple, which is obviously atheistic and all into their really great publicity stunts, which I definitely find enjoyable. I can appreciate their actions and we're going to talk about some Satanists that are a little harder to appreciate, I suppose.
[00:02:03] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we're mostly yucky.
[00:02:06] Preston Meyer: They're not all bad but yeah, there's there's some really gross groups.
[00:02:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah, so they're basically a separate group of anti-christians that are theistic Satanists, so and again, they are a minority group under the bigger Satanist umbrella. And they're actually mocked a little bit.
[00:02:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah. That's fair. A lot of the Satanists that haven't tried to separate themselves from Christianity, who openly accept the anti-Christian label are often called diabolists or reverse Christians, sometimes, depending on who you talk to.
[00:02:46] Katie Dooley: Diablo.
[00:02:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah, some some fun wordplay there, but a lot of them will deny that their religion is a reaction to Christianity. But when you look into the formation of the group, it becomes really obvious that either they're lying or they have lost track of that detail.
[00:03:03] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I we'll get into it. The Joy of Satan ministry says that Satanism existed before Christianity, and maybe if we're looking into the Hebrew Bible, but that's about it. It wasn't. It's not nearly as old as they think.
[00:03:20] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but generally for theistic Satanists, Satan is a real deity that is worthy of worship. Some... You get variety, some are monotheistic. That Satan is the only real God. You got groups that are willing to accept that there are an awful lot of gods, but Satan is the only one worth worshiping.
[00:03:38] Katie Dooley: There are also ones I saw that worship a whole pantheon of demons, or recognize the pantheon of demons, with Satan being at the head of those demons.
[00:03:48] Preston Meyer: That's exciting.
[00:03:49] Katie Dooley: A little bit like, well, we'll get to this a little bit like Lucifer on Netflix.
[00:03:54] Preston Meyer: Popular culture and Lucifer are really an odd pair. Of course, we've talked before how Lucifer is the Latin name for the Greek god Phosphoros, which of course is just the morning star. That's Venus in the morning and in the evening. Nothing terribly special about that, nothing terribly devilish about it. It's just it's a light bearer.
[00:04:22] Katie Dooley: Theistic Satanists reject Christianity and the Christian definition of evil, which we'll get into a little bit more. And they also reject the Judeo-Christian obsession with laws, which, to be fair, there's whole chapters on laws. So yeah, who could blame them?
[00:04:37] Preston Meyer: Well, and not all Christians are super concerned about rules. There's some that are like, I'll do what I'll do, and God's either going to forgive me or he's not. It's predetermined and I get to do whatever I want in the meantime. And of course, it's a spectrum. You got everything in between. Yay!
[00:04:53] Katie Dooley: Yay! It's a spectrum!
[00:04:55] Preston Meyer: But Satanists reject all of these ideas. They reject the idea that there is any need for salvation from anything but ignorance. Which of course, the only cure for ignorance is learn stuff.
[00:05:08] Katie Dooley: Yeah, and that's actually similar to the rest of Satanism as well.
[00:05:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah
[00:05:12] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we see that a lot in the broader umbrella of Satanism, encouraging free will, individuality, independence, and knowledge seeking. Though we'll get into some of that... Knowledge seeking in theistic Satanism is super skewed.
[00:05:27] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's in addition to rejecting atheism because they believe that there are gods, they also have a tricky relationship with science.
[00:05:37] Katie Dooley: Oh boy.
[00:05:38] Preston Meyer: They see science in the same way that a lot of Christian groups do, where they think it's this monolithic thing that can't ever change and must be evil because everyone just assumes that science is good. When science is, of course, a constantly evolving field of study. It's the sum of human knowledge.
[00:06:00] Katie Dooley: It's neither good or bad. Yeah, it's just facts.
[00:06:04] Preston Meyer: Uh, well, I mean, there there is bad science. There is science that we thought was good for a long time and have since found out isn't.
[00:06:13] Katie Dooley: Fair.
[00:06:13] Preston Meyer: It's just science is the sum of human knowledge. Rejecting science is really dumb. And the scientific method is reliable. That's how the whole thing works.
[00:06:26] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:06:27] Preston Meyer: But Satanists in general, because obviously there's exceptions, either personal or group wise, don't love the whole thing. Oh, well.
[00:06:40] Katie Dooley: Religious people.
[00:06:41] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:06:42] Katie Dooley: I'm kidding.
[00:06:42] Preston Meyer: So yeah, there are a handful of parallels with regular atheistic Satanism. You mentioned free will, individuality. Something that's really important to them is living by your own strength, that you are able to take care of your own needs and stand up and fight your own battles rather than rely on some force that's probably not going to come to do it for you.
[00:07:06] Katie Dooley: So Satan's really is not going to come and help out.
[00:07:09] Preston Meyer: Exactly.
[00:07:12] Katie Dooley: Oh.
[00:07:12] Preston Meyer: But a lot of these groups believe in magic. So there is things you can do that may have some sort of influence there too.
[00:07:18] Katie Dooley: That'll help that a little bit.
[00:07:20] Preston Meyer: Again, it's a spectrum.
[00:07:20] Katie Dooley: Buy our t-shirts! I don't want to spend too too much time on this, but it came up a lot in my research is the left hand path and the right hand path. And these are, from my understanding, strictly magical terms.
[00:07:39] Preston Meyer: Pretty much.
[00:07:40] Katie Dooley: But again, it comes up a lot in Satanism. And to sum it up, it's like left is bad, right is good, left is black magic. White is right. White is right. Oh, no. Oh, white is good magic.
[00:07:55] Preston Meyer: Let's just step away from those statements then.
[00:07:58] Katie Dooley: Let's step away from the colour statements. Left is rad. Right is good.
[00:08:02] Preston Meyer: You say left is rad?
[00:08:04] Katie Dooley: Left is rad. Blue is blue. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. Left is bad. Right is good.
[00:08:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Okay. Generally, um, we've got people who talk about it where the left hand path tends to be a lot more self-serving, and the right hand path is more other-serving, I think, is a more generally, culturally acceptable way of outlining this.
[00:08:33] Katie Dooley: I like that.
[00:08:34] Preston Meyer: Because a lot of people who use black magic don't see it as bad.
[00:08:38] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:08:38] Preston Meyer: And probably what's labeled as black... well for sure, what is labeled as black magic to some is not black magic to others.
[00:08:46] Katie Dooley: Well, and to my point that like in our last episode with Doctor Fairen, he kind of talked about how, you know, what is a cult to some is fine to others, and it's just really public or societal perception of what is a cult versus what is a pseudoscience or a spiritual experience. One thing I read said that the Abrahamic religions are often considered the right hand path, which I kind of love because it recognizes that there is magic in the Abrahamic religion, which they try to be like, no, magic is bad. But again, Doctor Glen Fairen and the zombie zombie rabbi, um, that's pretty magical.
[00:09:27] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's... Magic is pretty loosey goosey word, as we've talked about before. And there is a difference between magic and witchcraft.
[00:09:36] Katie Dooley: Right.
[00:09:36] Preston Meyer: But that also depends on who you talk to. Because if you want to be super simplistic, if you're wielding magic, you're a witch. Bam! That's it. You're trying to do something by shouting words and doing a ritual. Bam! Magic.
[00:09:49] Katie Dooley: Magic. It's honestly so super vague, but because it will come up later in our episode talking about the left hand path, I want to define it, but the magister of the cultist Sabbatai and occultist Andrew Chumbley stated that they were simply theoretical constructs that were without definitive objectivity, and that nonetheless, both forms could be employed by the magician. And then I put a footnote if you even believe in magic at all.
[00:10:19] Preston Meyer: For sure. So it's hard to use magic if you don't believe the magic is real. In fact, one could say you're not going to succeed. Do I believe in magic?
[00:10:29] Katie Dooley: Do you remember that song? It's a super old song.
[00:10:31] Preston Meyer: Maybe. Maybe it sounds a little bit familiar.
[00:10:34] Katie Dooley: I mean I'm singing it. No...
[00:10:35] Preston Meyer: That's the trick.
[00:10:36] Katie Dooley: That's the problem. Oh wow. Ouch!
[00:10:39] Preston Meyer: I've got Queen's, It's A Kind of Magic in my head now from the Highlander movie.
[00:10:44] Katie Dooley: I mean, there was another good song about magic. I forget who does it. I...
[00:10:48] Preston Meyer: There's loads of songs about magic.
[00:10:49] Katie Dooley: I know the words, but I'm not going to sing it.
[00:10:51] Preston Meyer: You got Santana's black magic woman. You got so many options.
[00:10:55] Katie Dooley: But now you've embarrassed me, so I'm not going to sing it.
[00:10:58] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:10:58] Katie Dooley: But maybe we'll insert music here. Maybe we'll do special magic outro for this episode.
[00:11:06] Preston Meyer: We'll see.
[00:11:07] Katie Dooley: We'll see. All right, so left hand path. Right hand path. Good, bad. It's a spectrum.
[00:11:14] Preston Meyer: Yeah, really.
[00:11:16] Katie Dooley: Just know that those terms are real.
[00:11:19] Preston Meyer: The paths aren't so far apart that you can't have one foot on both.
[00:11:22] Katie Dooley: We both have a left and a right hand.
[00:11:25] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:11:26] Katie Dooley: Oh, profound.
[00:11:28] Preston Meyer: Right. Anyway...
[00:11:33] Katie Dooley: We spent far too much time on that. I was like, this is going to be quick. It's been like 15 minutes of me.
[00:11:33] Preston Meyer: Back to Satanism. So we talked about how some of these groups are really, really awful. So let's start with those.
[00:11:49] Katie Dooley: Yeah so there are two really awful main groups that I found when researching theistic Satanism. They really like neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism.
[00:12:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:12:01] Katie Dooley: So ew. So the two big ones are the Joy of Satan Ministries, which I mentioned earlier in the episode, and the Order of Nine Angles.
[00:12:11] Preston Meyer: So I love one of these names and I hate the other name.
[00:12:15] Katie Dooley: Do you love Joy of Satan ministries?
[00:12:17] Preston Meyer: I love the name the Joy of Satan. It reminds me of Bob Ross.
[00:12:21] Katie Dooley: It reminds me of, like, every church you drive by.
[00:12:25] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:12:26] Katie Dooley: And it's just like except Satan. So it does. It makes me a little bit happy.
[00:12:30] Preston Meyer: I like that name.
[00:12:31] Katie Dooley: It's sad they're racist fucks.
[00:12:33] Preston Meyer: And the order of the Nine Angles. In theory, this name would be kind of cool for a group that's way into geometry. Freemasonry comes to mind. This could be one of the groups that attaches to it. Apart from the fact that these are, you know, Satanists. The other part is I keep expecting it every time I look at it to be the order of the nine angels.
[00:12:54] Katie Dooley: Oh, I did that a few times. I did a couple double takes. I was like, is that angles or angels?
[00:12:58] Preston Meyer: Right, but it's the Order of the Nine Angles. Their logo, I don't see how they picked nine angles. It's actually still bothering me.
[00:13:08] Katie Dooley: It's a pentagram, so there's ten angles.
[00:13:11] Preston Meyer: But no, it's not, the Order of the Nine Angles is super... It's not a pentagram. It's a bunch of lines. It's like somebody deliberately made. This isn't a pentagram.
[00:13:25] Katie Dooley: Did you go on their website?
[00:13:26] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:13:27] Katie Dooley: Okay. I didn't want to because I didn't want. Actually, we'll get to it. I don't even know if you can.
[00:13:27] Preston Meyer: It's not a pentagram. Yeah, we'll put it in the discord so everyone can see it.
[00:13:37] Katie Dooley: I count easily 13 if not more.
[00:13:40] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:13:40] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I don't get it. All right. Well, and I did some super scientific research and went on Reddit, and even Reddit says that these guys are super racist. So I feel like if the general public is posting that, then it must be true.
[00:13:55] Preston Meyer: I mean, tricky business just asking the public what they think about something satanic.
[00:14:02] Katie Dooley: Well, the one post I found was I am a theistic Satanist and want a group to join and everyone was like, don't join these ones.
[00:14:09] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:14:11] Katie Dooley: So...
[00:14:11] Preston Meyer: Okay.
[00:14:11] Katie Dooley: Yeah, they were like pretty chill about the fact that he was a theistic Satanist, but they're like, they're racist. And he was like, okay, I'll leave them alone.
[00:14:20] Preston Meyer: Well, at least he followed the advice.
[00:14:22] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:14:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So more about the Joy of Satan specifically. It was founded only 20 years ago by a woman who now calls herself Maxine Dietrich. I've found not her full previous name, but she used to be Andrea something. It's a little weird digging into people that aren't super important to me, you know?
[00:14:50] Katie Dooley: I understand. So the Joy of Satan is a polytheistic group like we talked about, that believes in demons and Satan that they call Enki, who is the demon's ruler and key is the Sumerian god of water and creation.
[00:15:04] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So it's like, yeah, obviously this is Satan.
[00:15:07] Katie Dooley: This is clearly Satan.
[00:15:09] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Oh, well, you've got to pick a cool name. Here we go.
[00:15:14] Katie Dooley: I like it. We should look at Pazuzu from The Exorcist one day.
[00:15:20] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:15:20] Katie Dooley: Just weird demon names. We should do a whole episode on demons.
[00:15:23] Preston Meyer: Sure. Maybe next year.
[00:15:25] Katie Dooley: Maybe next year. Yeah. We've already. We're already booked out for Spooktober.
[00:15:29] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we'll figure it out.
[00:15:31] Katie Dooley: In their practice, they summon and make pacts with demons who, like Satan, are extraterrestrial aliens. Makes sense.
[00:15:40] Preston Meyer: Sure. I mean, to be fair, it's super easy to say anything that's not living in the visible world must be an alien. That's super easy. Even Mormonism leans into that. So...
[00:15:51] Katie Dooley: Fair.
[00:15:52] Preston Meyer: I get it. Though it does sound really corny.
[00:15:56] Katie Dooley: It gets even cornier.
[00:15:59] Preston Meyer: Give me the corn.
[00:16:00] Katie Dooley: I will give you all the corn. Or shall I say lizard grub?
[00:16:04] Preston Meyer: Oh
[00:16:06] Katie Dooley: So the demons and the lizard people have been at war for millennia.
[00:16:10] Preston Meyer: Okay, okay.
[00:16:11] Katie Dooley: And even better, the lizard people mix their DNA with humans to create the Jews, Preston.
[00:16:20] Preston Meyer: See, that sounded kind of cool. And then it's like, obviously super racist.
[00:16:26] Katie Dooley: And then I can't believe those words came out of my mouth.
[00:16:29] Preston Meyer: Good thing we're just sharing what somebody else is publishing.
[00:16:33] Katie Dooley: What somebody else believes. So they believe that the Aryan race was the most important race ever created. Yucky.
[00:16:38] Preston Meyer: But of course, this is a group that loves Hitler and follows his definition of Aryan instead of.
[00:16:46] Katie Dooley: What the area is actualy yeah.
[00:16:46] Preston Meyer: The Indo-aryan people. Definitely the Norse Aryans, which is a group that didn't ever exist.
[00:16:56] Katie Dooley: They don't believe in the Abrahamic God. I guess that makes sense because they don't believe in the Abrahamic devil either.
[00:17:02] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:17:03] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:17:03] Preston Meyer: Their Satan is Enki.
[00:17:05] Katie Dooley: Enki. And they're really into what would be called black magic or the left hand path, performing spells and rituals of all different levels of complexity.
[00:17:14] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So I looked a little bit into their idea of rituals because, you know, it's a thing that I'm curious about. And their rituals apparently don't need to have all the fancy trappings. They say Satan isn't concerned about having all the gear. He understands that times are hard and resources are scarce.
[00:17:31] Katie Dooley: What a good guy
[00:17:32] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:17:33] Katie Dooley: I will say, and we're gonna get into the Order of Nine Angles and their worse, surprising. But I still never found anything on humans like actual human sacrifices or actual black masses being performed by any Satanist group. So the Satanic Panic of the 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s and 2020s is not there.
[00:17:55] Preston Meyer: The Black mass is, you know, people gathering together, not let's burn people or...
[00:18:01] Katie Dooley: Desecrate a church. Yeah, like I haven't found any actual.
[00:18:05] Preston Meyer: Any real corroboration, yeah.
[00:18:07] Katie Dooley: Like this Satanist group did this black mass in our Catholic I haven't found. So I did something I regret and I went on to the Joy of Satan Ministries website.
[00:18:17] Preston Meyer: You told me not to, so I didn't.
[00:18:18] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I mean, it's terrible from like a web design perspective. It's very like 90s early 2000. But it also you get, like, the weird ass remarketing.
[00:18:30] Preston Meyer: Sure. Yeah. You start getting the weird pushes from Amazon?
[00:18:35] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It's like, oh, you're a Satanist. Oh, you don't like the Jews, eh? No I do. It's fine. Yeah. So I mean, whatever, but it's, you know.
[00:18:46] Preston Meyer: Web design as old as the church.
[00:18:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Preston Meyer: 20 years ago.
[00:18:49] Katie Dooley: And uh, we'll talk about Bitchute in a minute. It's hosted by Bitchute as well, so.
[00:18:54] Preston Meyer: Mm. Okay.
[00:18:55] Katie Dooley: Yeah. That's. Anyway, yeah.
[00:18:58] Preston Meyer: I also thought it was interesting. Their logo, as hard as it is to describe. Just put it up on discord for everyone to see. It's distinguished from other churches that use the goat star by putting the Assyrian cuneiform letters at the corners of the star. So, you know, if you see weird little collections of arrows around the pentagram, these are people to avoid.
[00:19:24] Katie Dooley: So now on to the Order of the Nine Angles. Angles. And so they're worse than the Joy of Satan Ministries, which is scary to think. And again, while they're a minority of Satanists, they're actually one of the groups that do do terrible things in the name of Satan, including sexual assault, murder, weapons trafficking, and air quotes human sacrifice. So no Order of Nine Angles ONA has never admitted to a ceremonial human sacrifice, but there are enough murders and crimes that you could probably count those.
[00:19:59] Preston Meyer: It's. It's tricky. Like they don't claim them, and there's not actually enough evidence to lock anybody away. There's some tricky business.
[00:20:09] Katie Dooley: It is.
[00:20:09] Preston Meyer: But, I mean, these guys do publicly say truly terrible things that say, oh, yeah, no, you probably are connected to this, but you're talking isn't enough to get me there.
[00:20:19] Katie Dooley: So they're so bad that Bitchute and I had to look this up. Bitchute is an alt-right web host and they host Joy of Satan Ministries, and they host conspiracy theory websites and they put air quotes, freedom of speech. You know, people who say it's freedom of speech just to say really horrible things. Um, they're so bad that Bitchute removed them.
[00:20:41] Preston Meyer: Well...
[00:20:42] Katie Dooley: What!?
[00:20:43] Preston Meyer: This is alarming.
[00:20:46] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So when you're all about freedom of speech and people can say whatever you want and you're removing someone, that's... And I mean, like, again, next level freedom of speech where you're okay with hate speech and...
[00:20:57] Preston Meyer: And they're not being removed for being Satanists. No.
[00:21:00] Katie Dooley: They're being removed because they commit a lot of crimes.
[00:21:03] Preston Meyer: Wonderful.
[00:21:05] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So if you're thinking about theistic Satanism, maybe avoid this one for sure.
[00:21:10] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Some of what they're into, they have adopted neopagan traditions, some hermetic ideas, particularly surrounding forbidden knowledge, alchemy, things like that. Forbidden knowledge is that sweet, sweet fruit of Satanism that you get to know things that no one else knows because nobody else dares to openly worship Satan.
[00:21:31] Katie Dooley: Dares to try and find out!
[00:21:35] Preston Meyer: They they do loudly and proudly proclaim that the teachings of Lucifer and Adolf Hitler will support their promised militaristic regime to rule the world and the whole galaxy.
[00:21:45] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:21:46] Preston Meyer: If the Aryans can get the Judeo-Christian oppressors off their back.
[00:21:51] Katie Dooley: This is a really weird intersection of like we talked about in our occult episode, the Occult and Naziism and Satanism and like space. And it's like a really weird intersection of you've lost your mind.
[00:22:04] Preston Meyer: Sure.
[00:22:04] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Preston Meyer: I mean, the idea that humanity will spread out into the stars. Sure. I'm on board. I don't see any reason why not. But just the Aryan race with the help of Satan.
[00:22:21] Katie Dooley: And Hitler.
[00:22:22] Preston Meyer: And and Hitler. That's... I have a problem with that.
[00:22:28] Katie Dooley: So because you're not Aryan.
[00:22:30] Preston Meyer: I mean, I'm white. I got blue eyes. They got no reason to really pick on me. Apart from being Christian. But that's... That doesn't mean that I want this.
[00:22:42] Katie Dooley: Fair, because Preston's a good man.
[00:22:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I try. So I actually really like the origin story for this group.
[00:22:51] Katie Dooley: Tell me.
[00:22:52] Preston Meyer: In the 1970s, a fellow named Anton Long met an old lady in the Welsh Marches of western England. The old lady was one of the last of an ancient pre-Christian religious tradition, and she initiated Anton Long into their group. And after only a few years he was their grand master. And the sounds like made up. Because it is.
[00:23:17] Katie Dooley: Oh.
[00:23:20] Preston Meyer: Nobody knows who Anton Long is because the whole story, including the name, is fiction. David Myatt is the founder of the group, and all of the publications that come out under the name of Anton Long were pretty sure were written by David Myatt.
[00:23:38] Katie Dooley: I mean, clever on his part.
[00:23:40] Preston Meyer: Using a pseudonym to make your stuff more legit.
[00:23:45] Katie Dooley: And older.
[00:23:46] Preston Meyer: Is a thing that people have played that trick for a long time, but I'm just thinking of the the weird workout cult from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
[00:23:55] Katie Dooley: Yes.
[00:23:56] Preston Meyer: Where you're trying to get people to to buy your magazine and whatnot and help make you money without using your real name in this magazine. So nobody knows that you're the person in charge.
[00:24:08] Katie Dooley: Mmmm yes.
[00:24:08] Preston Meyer: It just it feels really weird. Well, and especially when in-person meetings will have this guy in charge. I'm not saying that there's a higher authority. I guess legitimizes his position as a slightly lower authority.
[00:24:26] Katie Dooley: You gotta write in your story how it was bestowed upon you.
[00:24:28] Preston Meyer: Oh, that's that's definitely part of the story that I just left out because it wasn't part of the interesting bit.
[00:24:33] Katie Dooley: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Talk about how he passed on the horns to David Myatt.
[00:24:40] Preston Meyer: I mean, that's it. Yeah. Passed on the horns.
[00:24:44] Katie Dooley: The devil horns.
[00:24:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:24:47] Katie Dooley: Just to be clear.
[00:24:48] Preston Meyer: So people put a lot of work into hiding their tracks, I guess, which I mean...
[00:24:54] Katie Dooley: If you're a racist fuck, good.
[00:24:57] Preston Meyer: Sure. And it fits into the way that most of the world sees Satanists as deceptive. Not really helping your image.
[00:25:07] Katie Dooley: Fair, yeah.
[00:25:08] Preston Meyer: But luckily, not all Satan worshipers are white supremacists.
[00:25:11] Katie Dooley: Yay! So if you are a theistic Satanist, try the Temple of Set.
[00:25:16] Preston Meyer: Temple of Set's kind of interesting. So we talked about the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey the last time we talked about Satanists. This is one of those groups that split off in 1975. Of course, they now deny being Satanists. They don't like that label. They are Settionists, which I think I've said before. It's it sounds real close. If you stumble your way through that word falsely. You got Satanists.
[00:25:43] Katie Dooley: It's like when you spell Santa wrong.
[00:25:46] Preston Meyer: Right? Dear Satan, I want a pony. Well, some of these kids who grew up in this tradition might say that.
[00:25:54] Katie Dooley: I like it.
[00:25:56] Preston Meyer: So Satan revealed himself to a fellow named Michael Aquino and then decided, well, I have to tell you that my true name is set, which of course is an Egyptian god of the desert and chaos, which actually, I think we didn't even talk about him. He wasn't one of the great gods of Egyptian mythology, so we left him out of our Egyptian episode. We'll talk more about chaos gods next month.
[00:26:21] Katie Dooley: Soon, yeah.
[00:26:22] Preston Meyer: And that's all. It really started out as is this idea that it's not the Christian Satan, it's this other god from a very old Egyptian tradition. Sure. That's cool. Aquino didn't actually know much about Egyptology and ended up doing a lot more studying into it after he had made these public proclamations. So at least he decided he needed to go out and learn more. Good for him.
[00:26:48] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Good. Like a true Satanist.
[00:26:51] Preston Meyer: Right? The weird thing is that they claim the name Satan is a corruption of the name set, which is really why they still fall into this category of Satanists when they claim not to be Satanists. Of course, the statement is linguistically false and super easy to fact check Set is a Semitic equivalent or the equivalent of the Semitic name Seth. There's a couple of Seth's in the Hebrew Bible and, you know, genetic connection between these people. You also have cultural connections. The name, it's the same name. Whereas the name Satan comes from the Semitic word for adversary. So not really the same thing. One is not a butchering or a corruption of the other.
[00:27:37] Katie Dooley: They're not even close.
[00:27:38] Preston Meyer: No.
[00:27:39] Katie Dooley: The temples that are strict monotheists claiming that all other gods are fiction. So this is different from the Church of Satan's position on praising a rebel against an overbearing creator God.
[00:27:51] Preston Meyer: One God only.
[00:27:53] Katie Dooley: Yep. And they are a perfect example of the groups that deny being simple anti-christians by denying their roots.
[00:28:00] Preston Meyer: Yep. Now that they're separated from the Church of Satan, it's none of that is important to them anymore. Of course, they do still use a little bit of magic that is definitely taken from the Church of Satan as it was in '75. Like the Church of Satan, they also took that system of degrees that bear some minor resemblance to Freemasonry. There are six degrees. I think it's the third degree is what makes you actually a full on satanic priest.
[00:28:32] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:28:32] Preston Meyer: Yeah, there's Settionists Like once you're initiated, bam, you're a Settionist., and then something like a fellow or whatever. And then then you're really in the priesthood after that third degree.
[00:28:44] Katie Dooley: Cool.
[00:28:45] Preston Meyer: And then, of course, all the pentagrams that they wear on their necklaces, different colors to show which degree they're in.
[00:28:52] Katie Dooley: Oh. That's fun.
[00:28:53] Preston Meyer: Right.
[00:28:54] Katie Dooley: I like that.
[00:28:54] Preston Meyer: Colour code stuff.
[00:28:55] Katie Dooley: Yeah. I love a good colour coding.
[00:28:57] Preston Meyer: Right. You arrange them, right? You got yourself a spectrum. I actually don't know what the colors are. I couldn't find those details. I'm sure somebody out there can track that down.
[00:29:07] Katie Dooley: We got a rainbow. We got some pride going on!
[00:29:09] Preston Meyer: Right?
[00:29:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I like that.
[00:29:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Aquino was really into the idea that Set had given life and understanding and light to the to the world through whatever divine means he has, and that there was a handful of symbols that kind of represent this idea. And one of them was the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey, that this is a symbol of Set.
[00:29:42] Katie Dooley: Wow.
[00:29:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I guess this movie really spoke to him. I mean, I enjoyed it, but it was slow.
[00:29:48] Katie Dooley: Did the Set designers know what they were doing?
[00:29:55] Preston Meyer: Uh. Very nice.
[00:29:57] Katie Dooley: Thank you, that was terrible.
[00:30:01] Preston Meyer: Uh, so 2001 A Space Odyssey came out before 75 when this church came into existence.
[00:30:08] Katie Dooley: I've never seen it, so...
[00:30:10] Preston Meyer: It's so slow. But I do enjoy it.
[00:30:12] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:30:13] Preston Meyer: But it's I mean, at the time, most movies were pretty slow, action wise.
[00:30:20] Katie Dooley: Fair. That's why Star Wars was so revolutionary.
[00:30:22] Preston Meyer: Yeah, star Wars was super fast-paced for its time.
[00:30:25] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:30:25] Preston Meyer: And compared to what we're familiar with today, it's... It drags.
[00:30:32] Katie Dooley: Fair enough. So one of the high priests of the church of Set, John Webb, says that Setians don't worship Set, but revere him as the leader and a guide. Which, as we know, is not really different from worship. And when combined with the title of a god, that line gets real blurred.
[00:30:53] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Still looks like worship to me.
[00:30:56] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Oh, no, we venerate him.
[00:30:58] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Most Satanists will say that if they worship anything, they worship themselves. That's a bold thing to say out loud, but.
[00:31:09] Katie Dooley: My body is a temple.
[00:31:11] Preston Meyer: Right. But that's different, isn't it?
[00:31:15] Katie Dooley: That's a blurred line too... Post in our discord. If you think worshiping yourself and saying your body is a temple is same same or different.
[00:31:27] Preston Meyer: All right. And Luciferians, which still has nothing to do with the Netflix show. Is it even a Netflix show?
[00:31:37] Katie Dooley: Yeah, the last season came out fairly by the well, by the time it was time this airs...
[00:31:41] Preston Meyer: Was it Netflix exclusive?
[00:31:42] Katie Dooley: I think it was a Netflix exclusive.
[00:31:44] Preston Meyer: Good enough for me.
[00:31:45] Katie Dooley: That's the only place I have ever seen it, and I haven't watched the last season yet. And Tom Ellis, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the show.
[00:31:53] Preston Meyer: Sure, that'd be fun.
[00:31:55] Katie Dooley: Did you know Tom Ellis... At least his dad and sister are pastors.
[00:32:01] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah. I think there might be three in his this family, and he's literally the devil. I think it's comical. It makes me way too happy.
[00:32:10] Katie Dooley: That's great.
[00:32:12] Preston Meyer: So followers of Lucifer again, the guy from the books, not the TV show. The bearer of light. Not the weird action drama star.
[00:32:22] Katie Dooley: Most do not equate Lucifer with Satan. Typically, Lucifer is worshiped not as the devil, but as a guardian, liberator, destroyer, or light bringer. Lucifer is a symbol of enlightenment and independence, which we do see a lot in Satanism. Generally speaking, Luciferians believe that Lucifer is the true God as opposed to Yahweh. This agrees with the Platonic and Neopythagorean doctrine that the creator of the world is unfit and will be cast down with his physical, physical creation, but the one who enlightens the spirits will endure. I think that's pretty cool.
[00:32:59] Preston Meyer: Right? It's nice and poetic. Instead of recognizing Lucifer's parity with the Greek phosphoros, they conflate him with Prometheus, the one who gave humanity fire in defiance of the gods. And like some of the old Greek mystery schools, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. There is knowledge to be gained that will make you so powerful that the gods will praise you. And like we mentioned before, self-worship definitely important.
[00:33:24] Katie Dooley: Interestingly enough, we have reports dating back as far as the 1230s for the first instances of Luciferian worship, which is like super old compared to Satanism. So in our Satanism episode, we talked about how the Church of Satan and the Satanic Temple are all relatively new, and same with the Order of Nine Angles and the Joy of Zion ministries are all mid 1900s at the earliest, so it's interesting to see something so old.
[00:33:52] Preston Meyer: I'm curious how legit these claims are, because just accusing somebody of worshiping Lucifer was just the thing you did for any enemies of the state or the church during the Crusades and the Inquisition. So it's like there could have been organized Satan worshipers. I can't say there definitely wasn't because.
[00:34:15] Katie Dooley: You weren't around 800 years ago, Preston!
[00:34:18] Preston Meyer: Right. But I'm skeptical. I'm willing to believe if sufficient evidence is shown. But I'm skeptical just because of how loosey goosey this was thrown around to hurt people's feelings and ruin lives.
[00:34:31] Katie Dooley: You're a Lucifer worshiper.
[00:34:34] Preston Meyer: In fact, even the Baphomet is a nonsense creation to discredit people. And the name Baphomet is a bastardization of the name Muhammad.
[00:34:45] Katie Dooley: Oh, wow.
[00:34:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:34:46] Katie Dooley: Spooky
[00:34:48] Preston Meyer: Right? Let's make people look bad for sympathizing with Mohammedans or Muslims as we know them today. But Mohammedan was the label that was, you know, common.
[00:34:59] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Interesting. So again, most Luciferians follow the left-hand path and use magic in ceremony and ritual.
[00:35:10] Preston Meyer: Fun stuff.
[00:35:11] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Then we have the Taxil hoax. Leo Taxil worked hard to convince people that Freemasonry was associated with Luciferianism.
[00:35:21] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:35:21] Katie Dooley: How do you feel about that, Grand Chaplain?
[00:35:23] Preston Meyer: No, I've. I've read about this.
[00:35:24] Katie Dooley: Okay. Tell me more.
[00:35:25] Preston Meyer: Actually, it's been a little while since I've done any reading on this, but it's a little interesting. There was actually a decent-sized Anti-Masonic force growing in the eastern states way back in the good old days. Going from memory, I want to say this is about 200 years ago, and there are a lot of people were just really uncomfortable with Freemasons around there, especially the Puritan parts of American culture at the time. And so this guy is like, well, yeah, I, can back you all up and we can get some some real steam getting rid of these Freemasons. Let's call them Satanists and accuse them of worshiping Lucifer. And there's a handful of statements that other people have said, and there's a handful of statements that Taxil said, other people have said about Freemasons worshiping Satan or revering Satan or not Satan, Lucifer. Definitely Lucifer, not Satan.
[00:36:24] Katie Dooley: Yeah. And the rituals are all Luciferian and.
[00:36:28] Preston Meyer: Right. I mean, we talk about getting more light, understanding the world better. Sure.
[00:36:35] Katie Dooley: Enlightenment. Oh, no.
[00:36:39] Preston Meyer: And it's it's easy to make that step of, well, we appreciate the light bringer. Even the revelation of John in the Bible calls Jesus Lucifer, the morning star. So. Sure, sure. If you want to say Freemasons worship Lucifer. If you're willing to accept that use of Lucifer for Jesus, then you're fine. Because at the time, the vast majority of Freemasons were practicing Christians. Most of the Freemasons you would see in your community, you would also see in church on Sunday. So accusing the people you go to church with of worshiping Lucifer. Very bold move.
[00:37:27] Katie Dooley: Very bold, I like it.
[00:37:29] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So this whole thing that Leo Taxil had put together was exposed as a hoax relatively quickly, apart from, you know, the outright denial, because you're going to get that immediately. But it was shown to be fully false fairly quickly too.
[00:37:50] Katie Dooley: Question to tie this in with our Freemasonry episode.
[00:37:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah.
[00:37:53] Katie Dooley: Could you be a Satanist and a Freemason?
[00:37:55] Preston Meyer: So we've had this conversation several times over the last ten years that I've been going to lodge meetings.
[00:38:00] Katie Dooley: Interesting.
[00:38:01] Preston Meyer: And the consensus is always no.
[00:38:06] Katie Dooley: Oh, because you believe in a higher power.
[00:38:09] Preston Meyer: Well, okay. So most Satanists are atheists, so that's.
[00:38:13] Katie Dooley: Right. So let's say Luciferian.
[00:38:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So the idea of a Luciferian being a Freemason feels antithetical to Luciferianism.
[00:38:24] Katie Dooley: Mhm. Okay. Fair.
[00:38:26] Preston Meyer: That.
[00:38:27] Katie Dooley: But we also know Catholics don't like Freemasonry and they're Catholic Freemasons. So let's suspend disbelief for a minute.
[00:38:32] Preston Meyer: Right. The idea of praying to the great architect of the universe, which is different than the creator of this world, the demiurge that needs to be overcome is a problem for Luciferians, or really anybody who subscribes to a Neoplatonic or Neopythagorean philosophy or cosmology. So I just don't see any reason why a Luciferian would even knock on a mason's door and say, hey, I want to join. And upon investigation, the committee who goes and gets to know you and they hear you say, yeah, I worship Lucifer. I find it hard to believe that committee would be, oh yeah, cool. You can join us. I think that there would be a conversation in there like this probably isn't for you. And here's some good reasons why.
[00:39:25] Katie Dooley: Okay. Yeah. Fair. I guess.
[00:39:28] Preston Meyer: It's not like we have any hard and fast rule saying thou shalt not admit Luciferians. It's it just doesn't seem like a thing that would.
[00:39:35] Katie Dooley: Thou shall not hang out with taxi drivers or actresses,
[00:39:41] Preston Meyer: Race car drivers or actresses.
[00:39:43] Katie Dooley: Right. Excuse me. Thank you.
[00:39:45] Preston Meyer: I'm glad I remember what you were referring to.
[00:39:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah, and if you don't, listener, go back right to our past episodes and find it. No. I'm kidding.
[00:39:56] Preston Meyer: That one was.
[00:39:57] Katie Dooley: Celibacy and scandal!
[00:39:58] Preston Meyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just cut me off and get there. But yeah. No. You're right.
[00:40:04] Katie Dooley: Sorry. Final thoughts on theistic Satans. Theistic Satans. Theistic Satanists.
[00:40:13] Preston Meyer: I think I've mentioned before that I was a theistic Satanist for a short time.
[00:40:18] Katie Dooley: Oh I knew you were a Satanist, I didn't know it was a theistic one, though.
[00:40:18] Preston Meyer: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wasn't an atheist Satanist. Looking back 20 years, it was. It wasn't a thing that I was seriously involved with. There was certainly no group that I was meeting with. It was just a philosophy that I had slowly adopted. I, I don't even remember how it came to be that I identified this way, but it didn't last terribly long either. And luckily I didn't fall in with which group was it that was founded the year that I identified... The Joy of Satan was founded in 2002, so it wasn't the same year I was a Satanist. I was. It was 2001 that I was doing that.
[00:40:55] Katie Dooley: Okay.
[00:40:55] Preston Meyer: So I had started it and abandoned it before the Joy of Satan had really become a thing.
[00:41:02] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:41:03] Preston Meyer: But I'm glad that I didn't come across groups like this that I'm sure that young Preston would have recognized. Oh, this group, not cool. But it's hard to say.
[00:41:17] Katie Dooley: But I will say on the Joy of Satan Ministries website, just like any sort of cult or danger group, there are some things that sound really reasonable and good.
[00:41:27] Preston Meyer: Sure. How do you convince anybody to join you if you sound completely unreasonable in everything?
[00:41:33] Katie Dooley: Lizard DNA. It's the Jews.
[00:41:39] Preston Meyer: You gotta start with things that people are already willing to accept. And then you get into the crazy.
[00:41:44] Katie Dooley: Then you talk about the lizard people, right.
[00:41:47] Preston Meyer: We'll talk more later about some of the anti-Semitic conspiracies and put that off for a month or so. We're going to enjoy Spooktober first.
[00:41:57] Katie Dooley: Yeah.
[00:41:58] Preston Meyer: Well, thanks for joining us. Definitely check out our Discord, all of our social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and...
[00:42:05] Katie Dooley: Anywhere your pods are cast. Yeah, but you're listening to us already?
[00:42:10] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Tell your friends. Also, don't forget we've got Patreon to help support the podcast and our Spreadshop where we got some great merch that our store is expanding fairly regularly.
[00:42:25] Katie Dooley: If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a review on Apple as that also helps our podcast grow. It only takes a couple minutes.
[00:42:31]
Both Speakers:
Peace be with you.
