In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with award-winning journalist and Mafia historian Anthony DeStefano to discuss New York City's organized crime. We discuss his meticulous research on New York’s most infamous mobsters and how his background in newspaper journalism has shaped his storytelling.
One of the most significant topics we cover is Alto Nights, the highly anticipated Mafia film written by Goodfellas scribe Nicholas Pileggi and starring Robert De Niro in dual roles. Anthony shares how his books Top Hoodlum, which focuses on Frank Costello, and The Deadly Don: Vito Genovese Mafia Boss played a crucial role in Pileggi’s research. He also gives us an inside look at the film’s development, including how real-life mob history is translated to the big screen.
We explore the legendary rivalry between Frank Costello and Vito Genovese, diving into their power struggles, assassination attempts, and Costello’s efforts to legitimize himself while staying deeply tied to organized crime. Anthony reveals new details from unseen FBI interviews, shedding light on Costello’s complex underworld dealings. We also discuss Costello’s mentorship under Lucky Luciano, the infamous Manhattan meeting that escalated tensions with Genovese, and how Vincent “Chin” Gigante played an unexpected role in Costello’s fate.
Beyond the mobsters, we also examine the women behind the Mafia men, discussing how the personalities of Costello’s and Genovese’s wives influenced their rise and fall. Anthony breaks down the casting choices for Alto Nights and the creative liberties taken to heighten the drama.
Finally, we reflect on why the public remains fascinated with Mafia history, from books to films to documentaries. If you love true crime, mob history, and behind-the-scenes Hollywood insights, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
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Transcript
[0:00] Well, welcome, all you wiretappers out there. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. We have a show today with Anthony DeStefano. Now, any of you guys that read my books, and especially about the New York Mafia families, you probably know this name, Anthony DeStefano. And welcome, Anthony. I'm really glad to have you on the show, because you have been a huge contributor to the knowledge base of Mafia history in this country. Welcome. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for that very kind word. You know, I've read some of those books, and you're a good writer. You're like an old newspaper guy, right?
[0:38] Well, yeah, I still am. That's right. You still are. You and, well, Nick Pileggiis an old newspaper guy. Larry McShane is a newspaper guy. There's several of you guys in New York that kind of cut your teeth on the mob news, and there's a lot of news there. And speaking of Nick Pileggi, you got involved with this movie that he's written a screenplay for called Alto Knights. It's creating quite a stir among mob fans right now. They're really anxiously waiting for this movie to come out with Robert De Niro playing two parts of
[1:13] all things. I don't know how that works, but we'll see when the movie comes out. So how did you get involved with this? I'm sure you know Nick Pileggi and known him for quite a while. And he probably reached out to you when he got the job to do this. Is that how that worked? Yeah, what happened was, I've known Nick for a long time, like you said, and we were talking one day, I was doing research for a different book on the Lufthansa heist, and we were talking, but Nick started to veer off into talking about Frank Costello at length. And he was saying, look, I'm writing scripts. I think, you know, I make a great movie.
[1:50] And he said to me, you know, I think he also makes a good book. And I thought for a second and I said, yeah, you're right. And I spoke to my publisher and we decided that let's do a book right away. A book right away. You know, we can get into the story. By the time the film comes out, we'll be there.
[2:11] Well, little did I know the way Hollywood works is that, although I could get a book out pretty quickly, and I did with Frank Costello, the book called Top Hoodlum, Nick's film was not going to happen right away. You know, you got to go through a process out there with Hollywood. You got to get a director. You got to get a producer. You got to get talent. You got to get money. So it took about six years before this project really got off the ground. running. In the interim, I wrote about three or four other books, one of them being Vito Genovese, you know, Vito Genovese, The Deadly Don. So these books all came together at the same time.
[2:52] And Nick had both books, Top Hoodlum and Deadly Dawn, on his desk to write the script for the Alto Knights. And, you know, it's a process. It's really, you know, he had to do the research. He had to rummage through my books and my files. And, you know, I did this for him because I've known him a long time. And it was kind of thrilling to see this finally get off the ground. And you know he put the script together i think in 2023 and by 2024 probably late 23 they were in production and they had a delivery date or actually a premiere date sometime in the fall of 2024 well again hollywood never works where you think it's going to work and this date It got pushed back or forward into late 2024, then early 2025, and finally March 21st, 2025.
[3:57] Which is the new premiere date, the date when it's going to hit the screens. You know, it was a process. You had to get funding. You had to get actors, actresses, and, you know, it all came together. But it took a while, and it was Nick's sort of passion to do this story,
[4:15] because what What it did was meld together a lot of the mob history from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. And that's what was crucial here. It happened that way. It took a long time. The finished product is going to hit the screens very soon. It's hard to make a good movie. Let's hope that he hits it out of the park, which I think he and Scorsese did with Casino for sure. Yeah. And Goodfellas also. And I assume you were working on the Lufthansa heist. He probably consulted with you somewhat on that. Lufthansa Heiss was part of that. Actually, in other words, I consulted with Nick.
[4:53] Oh, did you really? Yeah. He had had the Wiseguy book, and of course, they did Goodfellas. And Lufthansa was part of that. So it was important that when I write my Lufthansa book, that I had to talk to Nick. And he was very generous with his information.
[5:09] We sort of swapped stories. And of course, we got into Frank Costello. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Speaking of Frank Costello, you know, I was kind of looking back on him and about your book. And I see that you were able to find some some secret interviews with federal investigators and some private meetings he had with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, Frank was debriefed probably one or two times.
[5:34] By the FBI. Now, he really didn't give them that much, but he defended himself saying, look, I'm a businessman and I never stole a nickel from anybody. He tried to put his best foot forward. Those I found in his FBI files. And also there was some litigation when he was fighting against his deportation order back in the early 60s, I think it was. He gave a statement And there was material included in that bit of litigation, which also sort of helped the story. It helped him with his own words and with the words of other people who worked with him.
[6:17] So it was interesting. It's interesting to find that stuff. Yeah, that really would be a fine, just be fun to read and put in some historical perspective. And speaking of historical perspective, you know, he was mentor. His first boss was Lucky Luciano and he was actually running Luciano family, uh, when Luciano was, was gone. So, uh, talk a little bit about that and his partnership with him. It seemed like Luciano was a real businessman and Frank was a real businessman. They wanted to run this thing with less murder, although they created it on murder, but they wanted to run this thing with less murder. Now, that transition there, that's really interesting to me. Well, Luciano is credited with creating the concept of the commission and the sort of almost corporate organization for the mob with all the families. We get together in sort of a ruling council, like a board of directors, and try to mitigate violence and run things as a business. Costello was, of course, under Luciano at the time and during that period. Luciano got convicted, as you know, on a prostitution case and got sent away to prison. And the caretaker really was Frank Costello of that family.
[7:35] Ultimately, after World War II, Luciano was allowed to go to Italy. His sentence was commuted, I suppose, and he went to Italy. So we had Costello nominally in charge.
[7:54] And interestingly, when Luciano left the country, Vito Genovese came back because he was ducking murder rap out of Brooklyn. He fled to Italy, got palsy with Mussolini, and ultimately worked as a translator, if you believe it, for the U.S.
[8:11] Armed Services Provisional Government after the war. But, of course, they got wise to veto,
