The Trump chaos has brought a key constitutional principle to the fore: What happens when bureaucrats believe the president is not living up to his pledge to the Constitution? Sunil Dasgupta talks with Hamilton College, NY, Associate Professor of Sociology Jamie Lee Kucinskas about her new book, The Loyalty Trap: Conflicting Loyalties of Civil Servants Under Increasing Autocracy, where she reports prescient findings from 127 interviews she conducted with civil servants during the first Trump administration. https://a.co/d/75tNqQ2 Music by Anna Rubin.