Mark introduces the topic - apologizing. He says too many people are apologizing too often
Mark reads the definition
Jim counters with thinking it’s a trigger for him. He brings up a conversation he just had with a 30 something and how he said he was sorry over and over…to the point that it was totally inauthentic
He was regretting things he said and did
Mark agrees about authenticity being critical. He says too many people apologize for offending groups
Jim says “This not an excuse, it’s an explanation”. I’d like to explain what happened
The difference between an apology and an explanation
Mark says context is missing from conversation
Jim says you should save apologies for when you really mean them. When you’ve reflected and given thought to what you may have said or done
Mark says if the apology doesn’t feel difficult, then don’t do it. It needs to feel difficult
Jim ponders when to accept or not accept an apology. He is anticipating a call later today with a friend who is in an overwhelming state. This guy says sorry too much and Jim wonders whether to confront his friend or not. He wonders if h should let his friend “get away with it
Mark says it’s important to start off conversation on a positive note and then get candid, but with kindness
It’s approach and timing
Mark rereads the definition of apology. Definition number 3…excuses
Jim thinks apology is different than an explanation and different than an excuse
Jim appreciates when people take responsibility and also consider how to keep this same thing from happening again. An opportunity to get better
People that say sorry all the time are dangerous. Our word is everything. Our integrity
Jim thinks social media and technology have made communication m ore difficult…ironically
Mark talks about how many words have lost their meaning. Racism and Nazi and sorry
Jim recounts a Father’s Day event about the racism comment. He says,” tell me what you think that means”. Both guys agree that we need to be more careful with words and make sure both parties agree on the meaning of words before discussing them
Mark brings up patriarchy as another word being abused
Jim adds the word “literally’. Mark agrees it’s a “filler” word, unnecessary and irrelevant
He adds the accountability that’s missing in communication. You have to call out these abusers of words
Mark brings up the phrase “toxic masculinity” and how people want apologies for this too. Mark says “fuck that”
Mark talks about people in the public domain who are forced to apologize
Jim asks Mark to look up “dignity” and the guys both agree that apologizing without authenticity forces someone to give up his dignity
Mark brings up the leadership training he’s doing now and how much of an issue this apology thing is in corporate America. Jim agrees
Mark suggests that the person on the receiving end of the apology needs to call out inauthentic apology
Jim says there are situations when you just have to remain quiet or you’ll get “kicked out of the club”
Mark says it’s important to pick your spots. What am I going to gain from calling someone out? You gotta read the room and you have to maintain your integrity
Give some thought to what you are trying to accomplish. Be authentic and work toward some type of benefit or progress
Jim says sometimes it’s tough to balance authenticity with empathy
Mark talks about people misinterpreting him and then brings up the exception of his two daughters. Jim calls him on it they have a laugh
Jim brings back up the importance of the meaning of words. Both guys agree that clarifying what a word or topic means before discussing it is critical for clarity
Mark goes back to his daughters and uses the word feminism as an example
Jim says the meaning of words can be generational. Mark agrees there is nuance to the meaning of certain words
Mark brings up Juneteenth and both guys have fun making fun
He says he sees a trend where we’re teaching people that being over sensitive makes you better person somehow
Both guys are put off by the victimhood connect to the apology issue
Mark says the media portrays a different world than the one he lives in
Jim talks about some of the things we can apologize to ourselves about
Mark thinks it’s more about forgiving yourself and then they put things in the context of career
The guys bring in the 5 areas of life from the wheel and Jim talks specifically about money
Jim also says that some people simply expect to be forgiven. They think they’ll get a “pass”
Both guys agree we should apologize less and pause to think before we apologize
