Description

In this episode, 3L1T3 sits down with Dr. Anne Wagner, clinical psychologist and founder of Remedy, whose research pushes MDMA therapy beyond the individual — into the space between two people. We explore what happens when couples facing PTSD enter treatment together, why trauma rarely belongs to just one partner, and whether psychedelic medicine can transform relational patterns where traditional therapy fails.

We also examine the ethical and emotional risks of dyadic MDMA therapy: consent, power dynamics, memory, boundaries, and what happens when only one partner improves. Is this the future of trauma care — or a dangerous leap?

This conversation challenges the standard medical model, questions the limits of psychedelic therapy, and asks whether healing sometimes requires more than one nervous system.

✅ Key Points / Topics

• Why relationship trauma isn’t just “one person’s PTSD”
• How MDMA-assisted therapy is being adapted for couples
• The science behind “dyadic healing”
• What happens when both partners dose — together
• How MDMA opens emotional flexibility + secure bonding
• Core risks: power imbalance, coercion, storytelling shifts
• Ethical challenges in couples psychedelic work
• Is relational MDMA therapy scalable?
• Why some couples shouldn’t take MDMA together
• What traditional therapy gets wrong about trauma
• “The Power of Two” — healing via the relationship itself
• Case outcomes — surprising results
• Where research goes from here

🎧 Plus: updates from Psychedelic Science 2025, upcoming guests like Leonard Pickard and Reggie Watts, and why the future of therapy might come in pairs.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro & Conference Check-In
 04:22 – Meet Dr. Anne Wagner
 04:38 – Misunderstandings About MDMA Therapy
 07:13 – Empathy and Connection on MDMA
 09:05 – Pilot Study Results from MDMA + CBCT
 14:08 – Unexpected Dyadic Challenges
 16:31 – Why Couples Therapy vs Solo MDMA Work
 20:09 – Shifting Toward CPT + MDMA
 24:18 – Preview of Anne’s Panels at PS25
 28:57 – Defining Integration for Couples
 32:35 – Will Dyadic Integration Become Its Own Field?
 34:52 – Power Dynamics, Communication & Conflict on MDMA
 37:22 – MDMA, Neurodivergence, and CPTSD
 40:38 – Future of MDMA in General Relationship Work
 42:13 – Ethical Guardrails for Psychedelic Couples Therapy
 44:50 – Risks of Untrained Psychedelic Facilitators
 45:44 – Training Models for Dyadic Psychedelic Therapists
 47:20 – Access, Regulation & Stigma Barriers
 49:20 – Anne’s Origin Story: Psychedelics, Trauma & Relationships
 51:23 – Most Unexpected Lesson from the Work
 53:09 – How to Connect with Remedy Centre
 54:02 – Final Thoughts & Psychedelic Science Plans
 59:09 – Outro: PTSD Breakthroughs & Upcoming Guests

Music by Flintwick

Send us a text

Follow and subscribe!

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!

Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training

DIVERGENTS10

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod